Q: Is it wrong to dress as a crusader for an England match? The BBC has simultaneously proved Betteridge's law of headlines and got the Daily Mail into a right tizz with an interactive piece entitled "Is it wrong to dress as a crusader for an England match?" The question arises ahead of the forthcoming Euro 2016 tournament as the result of some England footie fans' penchant for donning …
Are they dressed as crusaders, or just as a stereotyped version of a well-equipped English soldiery of a particular period? It might well be consistent with what the English wore when crusadering, but I'd have thought that they must have fought some other wars here and there in not dissimilar garb.
Seriously, who else would want to walk around with one ??????
Flame suit on: check!
British passport in pocket: check!
Union Jack in the toilet as emergency toilet paper*:check!
*Yes, I have one! it so happens that somebody else bought one and when I saw that thing lying around I thought the best place for it would be either the bin or the WC ... it does come in handy from time to time ... don't worry too much, though, the French flag is hanging just beside it ... I really need a stars, stripes, and banner-thingy from our USians cousins, to, you know, have a set.
DISCLAIMER: I know you are referring to St George's cross thingy, but I do not collect flags from that small a "nation".
There are plenty of Brits who see St George's cross as the rallying banner of violent racist football hooligans that I would be surprised if there weren't those who would take offence at those dressed in full Crusader garb, both here and abroad.
What exactly are they trying to tell us when they do that?
It doesn't 't seem unlike dressing up as a KKK member or marching down the street dressed as Nazis, carrying guns, and wearing swastikas.
Such things may be acceptable in America where free speech and the right to hate is protected by the constitution and upheld as American virtues but this is Europe where we have greater sympathies for those harmed by hatred.
What I don't get is the connection between a Saint, who is a Saint because the story says that he was martyred after dying for refusing to recant Christianity, is all about religion. But England is effectively (if not officially) a secular nation and a football fan who wears the St.George cross will usually have no interest in religion.
The crusades, a war fought by Europeans in the Levant "holy land" at the behest of the aristocracy and the royal classes, their peasant foot-soldiers either mercenary or devoutly religious. The three lions emblem belonging to royalty, not the people.
A thousand years being owned by a tiny faction that were by legacy of conquering "nobles" has left the real people without any genuine identifying emblems. Had we not been stuck on the same island as the seat of power then we would have declared independence long since.
But the nation didn't do as the French did, and cut their fucking heads off.
@ Jason
Really? You don't see it in the context that it is taken in? You genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag? That's a real shame and a pity, as it kind of means they're winning if that's the case.
I'm not jingoistic. I'm certainly not racist or a hooligan. Yet I go out every St George's Day with a few pals for some ales and a giggle, see friendly folk dressed in garb (and to be fair some nutjobs) and have yet to see trouble or violence. You appear to spouting opinion as fact.
You don't see it in the context that it is taken in?
I don't understand the context at all, what it is meant to suggest to me or others. Is Crusader meant to signify some innate Englishness or aspect of English character? If so I don't know what, but would worry as to what that was meant to be.
Fans going to Euro 2016 havea right to dress as Crusaders if they want. I am simply wondering why they would want to.
You genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag?
No, and I did not say that, but there is an undeniable correlation between racists and their rallying around St George's flag. There is also a faction of football fans who do deliberately seek to cause offence and trouble.
@Jason
I don't understand the context at all.
You said "There are plenty of Brits who see St George's cross as the rallying banner of violent racist football hooligans" and I asked if you genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag. That's the context. Waving a England flag at a football, rugby or cricket match etc does not equate to a outpouring of racist thuggery. The context of dressing up a crusader at the above sporting events is nothing more than an extension of this; I believe you know that.
In reply to me asking if you genuinely see a football hooligan and/or racist whenever you see the flag;
"I did not say that, but there is an undeniable correlation between racists and their rallying around St George's flag."
Yet you stated;
"It doesn't 't seem unlike dressing up as a KKK member or marching down the street dressed as Nazis, carrying guns, and wearing swastikas." which to me kind of does suggest you see a hoolligan and/or racist hence the question; you made the link there, not me.
And I won't even get bother starting on your 'undeniable correlation' statement. That's just too easy for these boards...
Err what matey??
So there are some poor, shy, nervous folk that are so 'whatever' that the sight of my flag (the English one) starts a rumbling that results in their whole world falling down.
Has it occured to you that someone who chooses to don the flag in a manner that suits them could be, like you know a proud English[wo]man???
I suspect that they are not trying to tell you anything. Btw who do you think is 'harmed by the hatred' of a footie or rugby fan donning the flag in some fashion?
Granted things flag-related are different in Europe to the US of A (thank cluck for that), generally speaking methinks the hysteria quotient is a little more grown-up in blighty.
BTW my American mother-in-law isn't that far from being a Puritan 'enthusiast', so I know quite a lot of what I talk.
Have a nice day y'all.
Jay
No, I just fail to make a distinction between those who argue for religion and those who argue for a nation. Both are social constructs with little real value or meaning. Chanting Eng-Ger-Land is no more/less offensive than "Allahu Akbar" - its a matter of context.
The wearing of Crusader colours is no more offensive, in and of itself, than the wearing of a crucifix; people choose to be offended by all sorts of things, and sometimes people choose to cause offence through specific behaviour.
There is, for me, a clear parallel between religion and patriotism being used as vehicles for both rebutting and inflicting offence.
So, no, its not wrong to dress a crusader at an England match *unless* you are doing it *specifically* to cause offence, which is no different to touting religious iconography in the same way.
"My country, right or wrong" is just as extreme (and stupid) a statement as "Whatever my god wills".
"...or marching down the street dressed as Nazis, carrying guns, and wearing swastikas."
Never been to a WW2 recreation event then? Plenty of people dressed as Japanese, US, British and German troop uniforms. That's just a much entertainment to people as a football match. You don't don the uniform of a genocidal master race without considering it carefully.
Goes perfectly with adopting 'The Great Escape', then (which presumably predicted losing in a penalty shoot out).
(At work - in '98 - I told a Scottish manager that my Dad was Scottish and always tried to get me to support Scotland - but that I preferred to support a team that had a chance of winning.
Of course, I was winding him up. And even if England did have a chance, those twats who thought 'The Great Escape' was something glorious were too embarrassing.
'The Great Escape' was a film about the British bending over for their American masters. It's a toss-up between who are the more toe-curlingly pathetic: England supporters, or the British Government).
I think people are getting confused here, surely you mean the criminally unappreciated 1951 film Victor's Greatest Caper where, in an effort to make like at the prison camp a bit more pleasant, the Flight Lieutenant Victor E. Roll and his plucky POWs challenge the prison guards to a football tournament. However the camp commandant is horrified to learn that the exercise yard is not big enough for an officially recognised football pitch and, being the stickler for proper rules and procedures that he is, is forced to demolish three fences in order to accommodate the playing field.
The night before the match is due to start, the POWs escape from the prison camp under the watchful eye of the guards by disguising themselves as corner flags.
It's not all bad news for the guards though - effectively unchallenged, they romp home to first place in the tournament.
I think it would be more enlightening to point out to the lager swilling football louts draped in a st george cross that was essentially Palestinian, or 'arab' for better effect; (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George)
Such associations of flag and certain countrymen still make me embarrassed, if someone asks where i'm from I say Britain
Fan's could wear the actual England kit instead.
All jokes aside, it's such a shame that we've come to the point where it is incredibly hard to distinguish between genuine patriotism and hard/extreme right propaganda.
Interestingly, if you replace the costume's name (i.e. "Crusader") with "Knight of Agincourt" for example, then the whole premise becomes perfectly acceptable. You couldn't do that with an SS uniform. Or a Khmer Rouge garb. Or an ISIS militia outfit. By this logic, we're assuming Italy will consider banning all Roman costumes as well?
The point being that an overly PC idiot has decided to make a point that somehow links a religious-based antiquity with very real problems we are facing today. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that it is shameful that this even made the news. Hate crimes are the bane of society and statements like these only serve to drive the wedge further between OUR communities.
Yeah, but I think he wanted to take a live one.
What's wrong with that? How about a goat? Long established tradition in Cologne…
Fortunately I don't think Mongolia qualified so there'll be no Genghis Kahn lookalikes.....
Russian supporters would certainly not be amused. Nor Chinese ones, I suppose.
How about Roman von Ungern-Sternberg cosplay?
I really must come from a different planet or something, I honestly cannot see how anyone can take offense for someone else playing dressing up in a style that is over 500 years old. That would be close to 20 generations ago. If your taking offense over that, you need your head read!
What next, being offended at the Danes for dressing up as Vikings (Vikings raped and pillaged large parts of Western Europe for centuries! boo-hiss!), or being offended at the Italians when they dress up as roman legionaries (the romans conquered Europe killing thousands on the way! Evil bastards!)?
Utter tosh!
You know that there are people whose sole occupation it is to be offended on behalf of others then making sure everything is leveled down to whatever wasteland of unoffensive white noise (oops, did I just emit a racist microaggression?) uniformity they imagine their perfect world to be...
Also, it's good to know that the Ottoman expedition to Vienna was actually a multicultural encounter that turned sour due to a lack of Austrian hospitality....
> Also, it's good to know that the Ottoman expedition to Vienna was actually a multicultural encounter that turned sour due to a lack of Austrian hospitality....
But it did lead to the invention of the croissant which can be considered to be a good thing.
Hmm "liberal" (in the US sense) newspaper detects the pushbutton of the "original sin of being white", writes article apologizing for this to the Non-Christian Sun People and Receivers of the Order of the Refugee Monies.
FILM AT 11!
I so can understand Trump voters.
As an Irish man, I find it extremely offensive and provocative. It is tantamount to being taunted. They know what they are doing. They should be prosecuted, named and shamed and taught a bloody hard lesson they'll never forget.
And as an Irish Muslim, I have even stronger feelings about this. That red cross on a white background is no different to a Klansman from the KKK parading burning effigies of brown people through the streets.
And as I am originally Chinese (born in Beijing), I take triple offence. Because, because, oh I don't know, say the Opium wars, yes the Opium wars! English bastards did us no favours back then either.
So, I am affronted on all fronts. I couldn't be any more affronted, I'm so affronted.
Really, if we allow anyone, and I mean anyone, to wear this kind of racist, xenophobic, intolerant, misogynistic kind of get-up, it's just one step away from 'Arbeit Macht Frei' and the goose-stepping nasty Nazi shit-lords feeling they have carte-blanch to just roam the streets willy-nilly and just string anyone up from the lamp-posts, only because others happen to have a different religion to them, or different colour skin, or a different gender, those of a different class, those that don't like the same music, those that don't drive British cars - we will have anarchy on our streets and it will not be pretty.
This sort of thing needs to be nipped in the bud, right now. In fact, I am going to agitate for a protest movement at the next available opportunity, with my fellow dispossessed Black Chinese Muslim Irishmen - there's quite a few of us about - you will disregard us at your peril!
Then you will know who you are dealing with, I promise you that! (Btw, I forgot to mention, I'm a homosexual as well, so will be wearing a leather harness and pink lipstick [I identify as Lesbian]). You will rue the fucking day you decided to make my life a living hell with your poncey little fancy-dress. Oh yes.
I don't see why I should have to put up with any of this shit anymore from you English pigs. You've had your day, now it's our turn. We will cut you down and the streets will be paved with blood, if we see you wearing your national flag. Simple as that. Oh, and don't wear the English National Team's strip either, coz that is what's coming next (best be warned now) - if we see you 'identifying' with anything to do with England in fact, you will be made an example of - hair shaved and dragged through the streets - you have been warned!
And god forbid we catch any of you eating a 'Full English'. We'd better not even catch anyone advertising it. It's not a selling point. It's a smelling point, and that burned flesh is disgusting. It's discriminatory and an offence to all non-English people everywhere. In fact, in culinary terms, it's just a fucking offence full stop.
Hopefully I have made my concerns in a non-inflammatory and reasonable manner. I eagerly await any amendments you may wish to make (but not the face).
...............
Did I leave any potential professional offendees out? Good. Because as a white British male, I have no right to be fucking offended by anything, do I, even shit like this. But you know what, maybe I will start taking offence. And for once, I really do think I've got something to be offended by. Quite a few things really.
Wonder how long this one will stay up.
"In fact, in culinary terms, it's just a fucking offence full stop"
Right, you've gone too bloody far this time. I'm properly offended by your ill-educated character assassination of the greatest breakfast known to mankind.
Where's my pen, what's the address of that Points of View thing again - that still on?
Never mind all that.
Paddy says to Mick in his best worst Oirish accent: "Say der now Mick, I doh believe it's now der toime to onleash der Craicen!"
"Oh, bejesus, so it is again der Mick, yer qouite roight. It's der Beamish dat makes yer squeamish, so it is der Mick - Oi'll gat der next round in, so I will, will I?"
And as a black/irish/muslim/chinese/homosexual, I can say that, so I can.
Don't you der, sorry, dare, question my freedom of expression.
The beautifully ironic of the pseudo-patriotic far-right nutjob's tendency to drop subtle links to the crusades all over the shop (lions bleedin' everywhere for a kickoff) is that when you actually go to research the crusades, the term 'pillage' is generally only just used sparingly enough to not qualify as punctuation, and by all accounts Richard I was a bloody awful husband, son and king. Contrary to whatever prescription-strength rose-tinted glasses Disney were rocking when they churned out Robin Hood to the young masses of the 1970s.
pterry was bang on the money with the line "The pamphlet was very patriotic. That is, it talked about killing foreigners."
Plus the last crusaders, a bunch of base thugs with nary a brain but rapacity that would do VikingsAttilaWehrmachtThe Red ArmyZulu hordesAncient Testament Jews envious, were fully instrumentalized by Venetians into attacking and sacking Constantinople, the last bulwark of Christianity against Muslim incursions, for purely venal reasons.
It just wanted to point this out, otherwise ... please take belated complaints about killing foreigners in olden times to the guiltridden mainstream meeja who delect in these things.
Robin of Sherwood did it best. Everyone was overjoyed when Richard came back and put everything to rights, only to continue John's policy of bleeding the country dry before buggering off to Normandy to waste all the English money fighting johnny foreigner over two square miles of fuck all. Then he died and John was back in power again.
As positive results can be used to justify the inception of suspiciously first-strike-capable "missile defense systems" in Romania and Poland to counter Iranian missiles which don't exist, I would hope so!
PAY 5% OF GDP TO NATO NOW! THE CULTURALLY DIVERSE PRESIDENT RECOMMENDS IT!!
I wouldn't worry about any drugs. It's the Russian jets that'll be buzzing the goal area to test reaction times you really have to worry about. Because when RAF try to intercept, someone will probably mistake the ball for a missile and WW3 will kick off.
Well, the F-35 props may be out-numbered in case of an "event" as one single of those blow-up planes costs a gazillion Euro.
That's one thing I'm a bit looking forward to as in my advanced age I like to see fireworks from time to time: A "limited" nuclear exchange with Russia on Toady Witch Hillary's "watch", which she will probably hope to pull off with the loss of a few "FucktheEuropeans" cities, a good deal.
But I digress, better take my blood pressure pills.
"These are the same people who think Muslims are offended by Father Christmas."
In England I used to offer home-baked Swedish "Jul Pepparkakor" to my neighbours at Christmas - explaining that they were traditional Swedish Christmas biscuits. A couple of years ago new neighbours refused them specifically on the grounds that they were named "Christmas" - apparently to accept them was against their Muslim religion. So it would appear that in spite of their religion generally seeing Jesus Christ as a prophet - some branches do have an aversion to "Christmas" as a festival.
Myself I prefer to hark back to the European traditions of the Winter Solstice . Solidly grounded in our essential relationship with the sun and marking the seasons.
"In England I used to offer home-baked Swedish "Jul Pepparkakor" to my neighbours at Christmas - explaining that they were traditional Swedish Christmas biscuits. A couple of years ago new neighbours refused them specifically on the grounds that they were named "Christmas" - apparently to accept them was against their Muslim religion."
Make them Eid-er duck shaped!
Accoding to Polydore Vergil
[Edward III] appoynted his souldiers to wear white Coats or Jackets, with a red Crosse before and behind over their Armoure, that it was not onely a comely, but a stately sight to behold the English Battles, like the rising Sunne, to glitter farre off in that pure hew; when the souldiers of other nations in their baser weedes would not be discerned.
So the whole St George cross thing has nothing to do with crusaders (kicking the crap out of the muslims, and then having the crap kicked out of them a few decades later), and more to do with the 100 years war (kicking the crap out of the French, and then having the crap kicked out of them a few decades later).
Always remember: IT'S RACIST!
St George’s flag is a racist symbol says a quarter of the English
https://youtu.be/5AywIL5_eYM
Deep in the castle and back from the wars
Back with my lady and the fire burned tall
Hoorah went the men down below
All outside was the rain and the snow
Hear their shouts, hear their roar
They've probably all had a barrel or much, much more
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Over the hill with the swords of a thousand men
We had to meet the enemy a mile away
Thunder in the air and the skies turned grey
Assembling the knights and their swords were sharp
There was a hope in our ENGLISH hearts
Hear our roar, hear our sound
We're gonna fight until we have won this town
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Over the hill with the swords of a thousand men
(Instrumental)
When knights come along at the end of the day
Some were half-alive and some had run away
Hear our triumph, hear our roar
We'll probably drink a barrel or much, much more
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Over the hill with the swords of a thousand men
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea - yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea - yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea - yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea
Hoorah, Hoorah, Hoorah, Yea - yea
I'm sure crusaders are a regular appearance at cricket matches. I believe the Headingly Test Match saw Mexicans, Trumps, foxes and hunters. A crusader would hardly raise an eye brow.
As for the England football team: when they stop playing predictable crap then I might get round to wishing them well again. In the meantime I'll leave it to the ABU hordes* who don't follow a local team and are such an embarrassment at the international tournaments. Anyway, at the ground, they might be forced to change because the crusader garb offends one of the sponsors, as happened to Dutch supporters wearing Lederhosen in Stuttgart in 2006.
*I'm sure there is the odd long-suffering faithful among them, but well, you probably know the arseholes better than anyone.
For starters, anyone who wears any kind of fancy dress to a footie match is a front bottom, the only acceptable accessory is a large inflatable banana.
While i'm here and on-rant, all this St George malarky is bollocks, who gives a crap about some anatolian roman. I'm a northerner living in the archbishopric of York, my patron saint is St Cuthbert so fuck your St George nonsense. Not that i'm religious, cos all that's for front bottoms as well.
So in fact from now on i will celebrate Sean Bean day every 17th April, makes as much sense.
Oh yeah, anyone who reads the Daily mail is a See you next tuesday as well... Or the express, telegraph, times, fukin sun readers/droolers, middle class quinoa eating guardian snobs called sebastian, and right... Bastards who live in ashton-under-lyne, friggin arsehole neighbours as well...
Actually everyone who's not me and even i'm a bit of a twat probably.
Crusaders would have been of many nationalities from the Christian countries of western Europe so I don't see how their uniforms can be uniquely identified as English. As for St George's flag this represents the Turkish saint and this flag is used by other countries - my understanding is that English crusaders encountered the flag during their travels to the crusades and it was eventually adopted by them.
There may be issues around religious sensitivities here but many towns in Spain and Portugal have festivals commemorating the clashes with Moors and accept that it's part of their history. I'm sure there was brutality on all sides.
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