One espresso is not theft, Oz judge rules, it's part of civilization

Give us your desperate IT students, struggling to pay the rent on 20 hours a week as a cleaner, and Australia can at least give you the odd cup of coffee. In a case that shocked Vulture South to its very core, an international IT student was sacked in January for brushing up on one of the core skills of the industry: locating …

[Anonymous Coward]

What was the Alain de Botton quote?

Why refer to it and then not tell us what it was?

[Likkie]

Re: What was the Alain de Botton quote?

Its was in the linked judgment :

“Office civilisation could not be feasible without the hard take-offs and landings effected by coffee and alcohol” - Alain de Botton

[Youngone]

Ar*$#holes

So it turns out that the Facilities manager who "caught" him starting his working night with a fresh coffee is a complete turd without a shred of human kindness.

I'm glad this bloke got $9K compo, he was treated very unkindly.

[Likkie]

Re: Ar*$#holes

Yes, the facilities manager Ms Trudy Turnbull at CMC Markets.

[Oengus]

Not the first case and won't be the last

I know of a person (in Australia) who was fired and hauled through the court system over the "misuse" of a 30 cent postage stamp. If not for the judge seeing the malicious reasons behind the prosecution this person would have ended up with a criminal record.

Some people just like "throwing their weight around" and will take out their personal frustrations on the person least able to defend themselves.

[dan1980]

First, sacking him is a bit harsh and calling it 'theft' is a stretch. The manager was ridiculously unreasonable in taking it as far as she did. If, for whatever petty reason, she was adamant that the cleaner not be allowed to use the machine then that end could have been achieved without involving anyone else.

But there is another angle here, which is the fact that the cleaner was employed by another company and thus there must be a certain level of trust in that. Most normal office workers say hi to the cleaners and would know some of the regular ones by name but, in a larger company, there might be many cleaners and if the service company is also large, then the cleaners can often be strangers to the employees.

I trust people by default and have never unduly worried that a cleaner would steal something from my desk or snoop around in the cabinets, but that's the point - it's a trust.

While using a coffee machine without asking might be seen as a trivial issue in itself, it can be seen as a breach of the trust placed in the cleaning company and, from his employer's perspective, that's a very bad look for them.

And, if the client is very angry at the incident, they might demand that that cleaner is never allowed in their office again.

Again, it's all a big over-reaction but in the context of a stranger being allowed access to your office, that relationship requires trust.

[Phil Kingston]

I've seen an interesting comment elsewhere on this - along the lines of: are they to be denied tap water? And would use of the toilets constitute trespass?

Thankfully, common sense has prevailed. And I hope the crazy ass manager is a suitable laughing stock/has been brought down a peg or two.

That said, I suspect there's a back story that's not being revealed.

[dan1980]

It's all totally an over-reaction by this manager and she's clearly either unreasonable or was just having an utterly rubbish day and took it out on this poor chap.

There's just no way it should have reached this point.

The manager was clearly annoyed and wanted the cleaner not to use the coffee machine. That's a bit tight and mean but you know what? It's their machine and if the management don't want him to use it then so be it - that's their right. (However petty.)

From that point, all she needed to do was make it clear that this was the case. Apology gets offered (as it was) and accepted (as it seemingly wasn't). Case closed.

If the cleaner added to the apology the explanation that several of the staff members has told him he could use the machine then the manager provides her own apology about the confusion and clarifies that he is not to use the coffee machine and tells him that she will speak with the staff to make sure that they don't give him conflicting messages.

That's the way a relatively stable, mature adult deals with such a situation.

That really should go without saying. What I was adding was simply that in a position where a third party is given access to your premises, even a small issue can result in a feeling that the trust has been breached.

What if you found the cleaner using your photocopier to copy some forms or using a computer to print out something?

In that case, all that's been 'stolen' is a few sheets of paper and some toner but the items consumed is not really the point.

Again, the correct response from the manager should be a warning and a clarification of exactly what is expected and accepted, not to rush to the phone to scream.

[Marshalltown]

Then she should ...

... have taken it up with the other managers who had already let him do just what had gotten her knickers so absolutely twisted she squeaked when they pinched. The "correct response" of the manager is to have a sense of perspective and scale. If she lacks that, she is and will continue to be an abject failure as a manager. The fact is that the principle of not being a tight-assed twit with the people (and animals) who work for you is enshrined in ethics globally and extends in written forms back into the late Bronze Age at least. As it is, she has cost her employed a bundle because there were certainly lawyers involved and probably ought to be fired for incompetence.

[tkioz]

The thing is in this case he thought he did have permission as people who worked there told him to make himself a coffee on previous occasions. Sure they might not have had the authority to give him permission but that doesn't mean he should be sacked! At most if the woman in question was that put out by a dirty pleb using her precious coffee machine she could have asked him never to do it again.

[Spudley]

Yep, agreed. There is almost certainly a back-story of some kind.

Maybe the manager had already had to talk to other cleaning staff taking too much coffee? Maybe she suspected him of something else but the coffee was the one thing she actually caught him doing? Or maybe she really was just being an *&#$ with too much power.

We'll never know, and that's probably for the best. We have a ruling in court, and that should be the end of it.

[PhilipJ]

not to mention a "machine" can never make an espresso, just a black coffee infusion

[david 12]

I've worked as a cleaner, and I'm not surprised he was sacked. There is no clear black line between coffee and stealing stock -- just a series of grey borders, and you have to make the effort all the time to stay out of the grey, lest you slip into the red.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, what is the coffee machine for?

I assume this wasn't a machine you had to pay for coffee and was not obviously for personal use (i.e. in a directors office).

Seems to me that a simple, "we only let visitors use the machine, don't do it again" statement would have sufficed, especially for a one-off instance for a new starter. It is hardly bankrupting or creating significant tax or legal difficulties.

If the cleaner was being lazy and having a nice time on coffee instead of cleaning - maybe get them replaced but on the basis they are not actually doing the job - forget the coffee.

Overall - based on the information available I am pleased with the outcome.

Seems to me that there was a more personal angle from the manager who didn't like them for some reason.

WRT cleaner experience in post above where there are grey areas, in the relatively paranoid financial institutions I have worked for, cleaners were well briefed to ensure there was very little grey areas - no touching anything on desks, clean around them (which did create bizarre results on occasion) for example. If they didn't brief the cleaning staff then they deserve to be fined again in the future...

[Securitymoose]

And hopefully sack the facilities manager for the derivatives dealer

What sort of jobsworth would complain about a guy getting a cup of coffee? If our man was sitting around all day drinking it instead of working, perhaps, but this appears not to be the case. If the manager is not sacked, perhaps they will deduct the compensation payout from her (maybe) inflated salary.

[Mark 85]

Too many dead brains, not enough active ones.

I've run into a few like her over the years. They seem to feel that the entire budget for the office/building comes out of their paycheck. I worked at one place where you had to turn in your pencil stub to draw out a new one from supply. All contractors/employees are thieving scum, they seem to believe.

Sadly, there's more and more of these petty manglement types out there and they seem to be rising up the corporate food chain.

[HKmk23]

That's thetrouble

with employing females.......one week every month they grow horns and a forked tail!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: That's thetrouble

MEOW!

(Not single so doesn't dare comment further)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: That's thetrouble

So what's the excuse of guys that are irritable so-and-so's all month round? Testosterone poisining?!

.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: That's thetrouble

Sounds about right...