'Windows 10 nagware: You can't click X. Make a date OR ELSE' According to a complaint from a reader, Microsoft’s Windows 10 nagware campaign has entered a new phase, with options to evade or escape an upgrade vanishing. Recently, Microsoft’s policy had been to throw up a dialogue box asking you whether you wanted to install Windows 10. If you clicked the red “X” to close the box – the …
Having also had a family member fall victim to this, I can confirm that you can set the scheduled date to one of the next five days that Microsoft ever so helpfully limit you to selecting.
So, you can have Windows 10 now or anytime in the next five days ... love that MS have given me such a wide ranging choice of dates so far into the future :(
I have a laptop and a desktop both awaiting some TLC from me, but I haven't bothered to even turn them on since all this malarky kicked off. I'll turn them on when the danger's passed.
If they still fuck me about after that they're getting Linux (along with the other systems I've switched over since I couldn't afford to let them stew).
Hopefully, with AMD and Vulcan and HTC Vive all creating the perfect gaming storm that Linux has been awaiting all these years, I will only ever need Windows to do work-related stuff - which is on a work laptop and I couldn't give a stuff what they use on that. If it borks due to Win10 updates then I'm still billing for my time whilst I await a replacement - I can live with that :)
" but I haven't bothered to even turn them on since all this malarky kicked off. I'll turn them on when the danger's passed."
Given the way MS is forcing this, it will probably decide to upgrade NOW, no arguments or alternatively they will keep postponing the drop dead date out until they've achieved the update goal.
Probably both.
Windows - to do work related stuff? I may be out of line here, since I don't know what sort of work you do, but:-
1 Have you checked out Linux equivalents to Win software? Things have moved very fast in the last couple of years, and excellent (and free) Linux software is available for most of the common applications.
2 If you absolutely have to use Win software, a Linux host plus (say) VirtualBox and a virtual copy of Win 7 should do the trick. Of course, it is still essential to GWX the system, just as you would with Win as a primary OS. Alternatively, disable updates and disable internet access (no more Win 10 nags) and feed data in and out through the host. With a stable virtual Win up and running, you do not need "security" updates anyway.
Honestly, nobody actually NEEDS Microsoft for anything any more. All it takes is a little courage to cut the ties and set yourself free.
Linux makes for a slow desktop (graphics still laggy unless you happen to have just the right video card with the OEM driver).
I can't ever see Overwatch, or any PC game, getting ported to Linux world.
In short, Linux could make a case for business desktop, but a gaming desktop-nope.
> And unless VM support for DX12 comes along, I don't trust virtualizing a gaming rig with a Steam collection that's Windows-only and VM- and WINE-unfriendly.
Not saying it's necessarily the right solution for you, but one option would be to do something like this
Edit - making link clicky
So, you can have Windows 10 now or anytime in the next five days ... love that MS have given me such a wide ranging choice of dates so far into the future :(
I don't have to deal with this particular headache (and let me say I've never been so glad to by a Linux user), but knowing the way Microsoft operates it seems likely that the date is set somewhere in the registry. Set it 5 days out to give yourself plenty of time to work then fire up regedit and find the date and change it. January 1, 3016 (Or in the unlikely event that it's a 32 bit system Jan 20, 2038) should give you plenty of time before the machine updates.
Of course that's a complete guess and could be completely wrong. I don't have a Windows 7 box threatening to update without permission to check it on.
I posted this on another Win10 topic and I'll drop it here.... we are not alone in our being pissed off.
And then this past weekend I read that the Chinese are really pissed with the MS tactics and the problems with Win10...
http://fortune.com/2016/05/28/china-microsoft-windows-10-upgrade/
Sent the link to El Reg but so far it seems to have been ignored.
Only because most copies of windows in China are stolen and they are upset that they will have to pay for something they have been using illegally for free.
Lawsuits?
yes sir, i wish to sue microsoft for trying to upgrade the illegal copy of their software i have....
Or make a few registry edits:
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GWX]
"DisableGWX"=dword:00000001
[HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade]
"ReservationsAllowed"=dword:00000000
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GWX]
"DisableGWX"=dword:00000001
[HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WindowsUpdate\OSUpgrade]
"ReservationsAllowed"=dword:00000000
Next week you'll be needing to add
[HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"TotallyBlockOSUpgradeAndIMeanIt"=dword:00000001
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\GWX]
"GWXGoDieInAFire"=dword:00000001
There's a decent batch of updates to kill on the PC Master Race subreddit as well https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/3g7hr0/removing_telemetry_from_windows_7_and_8x/
But even after disabling/removing bad updates, you will still want to reality check any new updates before installing. I've seen a couple magically reappear after hiding them so they don't get inadvertantly installed
I have GWX/CP on board and tried never10 (but it coincided with an email client problem so I sys-restored out) but I don't expect this to be the last Microsoft strong arm tactic.
Just in case, all Windows/Microsoft updates have been disabled until August. That should do it.
Its getting to the point where it would be better for the world if Microsoft went the same way as Nokia.
So far, so much for code YOU DON'T OWN.
[This HAS TO BE a mistake]. Support Legally until End Of Life of The Product. Microsoft has been in compliment of this forever. You can take a an Win2K WS Frisbee and use it [unplugged of course] as long as you wish.
Are WE into FUD mode?
What I'm wondering is why it says "Legal" at the bottom of their pwnership notice :-|
Is it an abbreviation for "Illegal" ...in much the same way as little red crosses are now an abbreviation for "oooh yes, please erase 'my' OS and a tranche of my applications from 'my' computer and replace it all with that gimped fucking malware you can't even give away"?
Or is it just raw sarcasm?
"...the option to re-schedule a chosen upgrade time once you’ve confirmed it..."
Total change amounts to suppressing abort once committed. Also to suppressing additional rescheduling. So be careful. NOT COMMITTING TO THE UPDATE, to begin with...
THIS COMMITTING, as far as I legally understand, has to come from an ADMINISTRATIVE account, in order to protect the elder, younger, digitally challenged.
i managed to kill GWX on a Windows 7 machine a while back... killed the process then uninstalled it in updates.. there are two or three updates that contain GWX, if you uninstall them and mark them never to be reinstalled, i think that keeps it at bay.
certainly not had any notifications pop up since.
re: Can't think of anything witty...
I've had many client machines magically unmark themselves and set that damn icon again - latest GWX Control Panel does a much better job now fyi.
Side story: Recently had reason to visit a local bank for a scanning issue (network, it's always network damnit) and they had Windows 10 Pro installed throughout their network. Quizzed their IT people about telemetry issues and they gave me blank stares... That's three banks I won't do business with due to security issues - almost afraid to look too deeply any more.
Not just Vista, Win7 as well, I found out last night that my parents PC popped this up LAST WEEK. They switched it off and havent used it since.
Then yesterday afternoon, IT SWITCHED ITSELF ON AND PERFORMED THE UPDATE!!
Luckily, an anti virus scan also occurred that stopped it rebooting (it stalled trying to read WindowsSystem32 folder), so there was time for me to talk mum through using Never10. Finally allowed it to reboot, and got the Win7 desktop.
I then talked her through disabling Win Update.
Vista is end of life, so is this upgrade mandatory because Vista itself is no longer supported?
Upgrades can only be mandatory in cases that require vendor support.
There's no-one stopping me from running VMS 5.4 on a MVAX 2000 (provided the bloody thing starts up in the first place), but I can't go calling Digital Compaq HP HPE when it bugchecks.
Never mind that it would be useless to call HPE anyway, given their appalling lack of knowledge regarding VMS.
First the (up|down|re)grade to 10 is scheduled, then you used to have some chance at cancelling it. If you successfully kill the process telling you what Microsoft have decided, it happens anyway when you are not watching.
(Warning: My last significant contact with Windows was in 1998, so get advice from someone else if you cannot switch to Linux.)
Dear Reg,
I'm getting more pestered by worried friends who look to me for help. Can somebody tell me the instructions to pass on to them, over the telephone, at the next scare-screen-of-doom?
Also, isn't it bang-to-rights illegal? Surely a government spokesman has something to say on swathes of the nation's infrastructure being hijacked, thousands of people being terrorised by these tentacles.
I reckon a good lawyer could do M$ (at least in the UK) under the Computer Misuse Act 1990.
Section 3 of said act seems to cover it for me
"A person is guilty of an offence if—
.(a)
he does any unauthorised act in relation to a computer;
...
"
(See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/18/section/3)
The trouble is M$ can afford much, much, much better lawyers that the CPS.
Shitballs. Is that concrete that Vista is in the firing line? I have a manager's BYOD lappy that's on it (yeah, I know, don't start) and I don't have ready access to it to do preventative measures. I'll have to -- oh gods -- talk them through it on the phone! /dies a little inside
Is this authoritatively factual?
"Not wanting to support multiple OS", eh?
Yes, I can understand getting lots of dough in for scant work.
Meanwhile, Microsoft cannot even support multiple Offices. Install Skype for Business off an Exchange Online subscription with Office 2013 already on-PC? Nope!!.
"Stop, you should wait to install Office 2016. We'll have to remove the following if you continue: Microsoft Office Home and Business 2013 - en-us. This product doesn't work with Office 2016 right now. We're working on a solution. [Install Anyway] [I'll wait]"
That company so deserves to disappear.
"Stop, you should wait to install Office 2016. We'll have to remove the following if you continue: Microsoft Office Home and Business 2013 - en-us. This product doesn't work with Office 2016 right now. We're working on a solution. [Install Anyway] [I'll wait]"
I'm thinking of 2 terms. one involves a cluster. the other involves a circle.
I was curious so tried clicking the Windows 10 icon in the system tram on my old Asus netboot, currently running Windows 7 It refused to install due to a graphics driver incompatibility and suggest I contact Intel about it. Since that's the only computer running Windows in the house, apart from a works laptop with Win7 Enterprise on it, I'm happy :-)
Me two, I even tried it briefly. There were two things that led to it's removal:
1. It didn't play nice with Samba4:
8.1 was fine, 10, loooong delays (only after joining the domain), for e.g. typing hostnames into mstsc would freeze for 30s after each character typed into the host box... wtf does mstsc need AD for when a user is typing a hostname? Verify it's valid after I've typed the damned thing, not pause for 30s after each character.
2. Uncancellable "Get Updates" nags ignoring GPO
GPO was set to 'Notify but don't install' and 'Only notify administrators', the latter of which was ignored, nagging users with full-screen un-cancellable dialogs, often crashing full-screen 3D applications.
It's a small business, they're back on Win7 while I work out the specifics of the Linux migration. The only way that migration won't happen, is if MS remove all the forced updates/nagware and still give them a free upgrade to 10 now the deadline's past.
Best of luck for a smooth migration! Once your users realize they can get all their work done on a different OS, they'll never turn back. You'll see. If you have any holdouts, just give them a fresh Windows 8 laptop and wish them good luck on their forced upgrade path.
"Best of luck for a smooth migration!"
Hehe thanks. To be fair - it shouldn't be too troublesome, I've got 10-years of Linux under my belt, both desktop and server and they already use Firefox, LibreOffice and Thunderbird on Windows. Their entire backend is already Linux (Samba4 AD-DC).
They're a packaging firm, and MS Office is used for their label templates, I expect some pain there converting the documents to line up with the physical label sheets, but that should be the biggest hurdle.
Being a proper Linux geek, I see an excellent opportunity here to try to script this, extract the XML, find the margins, measure the difference, adjust accordingly, re-zip. :-)
They're a packaging firm, and MS Office is used for their label templates, I expect some pain there converting the documents to line up with the physical label sheets, but that should be the biggest hurdle.
glabel is surprisingly painless, open source, and contains most of the heavy lifting.
What's more disturbing is the updates keep crapping out as well. Not failing but leaving parts of the system broken. My network PVR 8.1 -> 10 upgrade went pretty well, drivers were replaced with bad ones as expected, the network took a while to come back but mostly it just worked after un-updating then hiding the drivers.
Last weekend's surprise (and forced while I was out) update installed the same blocked drivers, destroyed the firewall (?because I'd blocked most MS spyware and they were 'fixing' it) and generally raped my settings. Took more than half a day getting the damn machine back on the network and nearly working. And I know it will happen again if I don't completely cut it off from Microsoft servers :(
I have several friends who all work in different industries (Builder, Physio, Accountant) and they've all succumbed to this update. The only one who's business hasn't been affected is the Builder, both the Physio's booking system and the Accountants Sage software *spits* are borked now because of this upgrade.
The problem here is that all of these thought the upgrade was optional, and didn't mind paying for Windows 10 when they needed to upgrade. But they either hadn't the time or the money to do the upgrade. Now they're suffering because of, quite frankly, a horrible scam. Which is what it is, you click X to close a window not to install anything.
But they aren't the only ones to be burnt, they won't be the last either, but Windows 10 will be the last version of Windows they use. The trust in Microsoft for a lot of people in mission critical situations has been properly smashed with this debacle. Gate's baby is being sized up for it's coffin.
"So why did they not roll back the software if it affected them so badly? If I recall it explains quite clearly during the upgrade that you can do this and is quite simple to do."
I commented in reply to another recent Windows 10 article on this site - one person I know tried Windows 10 on his laptop, but decided he didn't like it so rolled it back to Windows 7 within the 30 days this is possible.
However, more recently he was a victim of the close icon trickery, and the laptop was shifted to Windows 10 again - and he says this time he can't find the option to roll it back.
"I was unaware that the rollback would not happen twice"
I'm not definitely saying it doesn't. Bear in mind, I'm talking about a non-technical user. It might simply be that he's just unable to find it - though having done it before, it's doubtful.
Another possibility is indeed that the option isn't presented the second time.
But it could also be that the installation date is stored somewhere (a Registry entry, perhaps) - and either piss poor programming, or deliberate twattishness on Microsoft's part might mean it isn't updated for the second time it's installed. So more than a month has passed since he *first* installed it, and the window has closed.
There could also be other explanations that I can't think of.
If I recall it explains quite clearly during the upgrade that you can do this and is quite simple to do.
It may have escaped your attention that for many users the GWX update occurs automatically and without user intervention and hence the only times they may see a relevant dialog box will be when the MS GWX malware informs them that it will be performing the upgrade; which most likely will not be at a convenient time for the end user who is trying to do something else and so will not be interested in taking note of the techie information.
If MS really wanted normal users (who weren't happy with Win10) to rollback, they would have presented a dialog box with equal prominence as the GWX dialog box, at least once a day for the 30 days following the upgrade, during which they give the user the option to roll back...
Additionally, said rollback would work 99.999999% of the time (yes the failure rate should not exceed 1 in 100M) and it would automatically opt the system out of reinstalling the GWX malware...
A lot of things would be different if MS was concerned about what the customer wants or needs.
First of all, GWX or Windows Update should not imply that an in-place upgrade is inherently safe and easy. Anyone who's been around Windows for any length of time knows that a clean install is a better bet than an upgrade, and the more cruft that has accumulated in Windows since installation, the worse it is likely to go.
As such, the GWX adware should clearly state that a small but significant number of upgrade attempts will fail and render the PC unbootable in either the old Windows version or in 10, so it is imperative that all users have a full backup before proceeding. They should have to check a box marked "I understand, and I have a backup" or "I understand the risk" before the Proceed button becomes available.
That would be the truth, and it would be doing a service to let the customers know this is not an ordinary Windows update, that there is risk, and that it is better to be safe than sorry. Undoubtedly, some people who were about to allow the upgrade would change their mind after seeing this, concluding that it was not worth the risk or effort.
Well, MS can't take the risk. No, I don't mean the risk that people's PCs will be rendered unbootable; they are more than willing to risk that. The risk they will not tolerate is the risk that people would decide not to perform the upgrade if they knew that it could brick their PC.
In Microsoft's view, quite evidently, it's "Ten or bust." There's no risk that is too great to be taken with their customer's PC or data if it means they might get one more Win 10 install to add to the tally. If a PC isn't going to be upgraded to 10, it's better to MS that it be rendered inoperable than for it to go on using 7 or 8. If the PC no longer works, maybe its owner will go buy a new one, which also accomplishes the goal of having one more Win 10 PC out there, and this time they'll get paid for it.
"Now they're suffering because of, quite frankly, a horrible scam. Which is what it is, you click X to close a window not to install anything."
Imagine how the virus and trojan purveyors are feeling now. User are being trained to be suspicious of clicking the X to close a window so will learn to explicitly click a button inside the window which has the word "No" or "Exit" or something written on it but which may do something else.
I've spent years training family and friends to always click the X on any unexpected pop-ups to make sure it goes away because pop-ups from a fraudster might not actually mean "no" when you click "no". Now MS have undermined and subverted this safe procedure. Bastards!!!
"I've spent years training family and friends to always click the X on any unexpected pop-ups"
I have been trying to train people to go into Task Manager and close whatever is causing the popup. Predictably this didn't happen when it was a Microsoft popup...fortunately no harm done, machine was compatible, but I wonder how the users of Samsung and some Acer and Lenovo machines are feeling?
This has now struck an elderly (91 year old) member of my family, and taken a perfectly fine, updated and patched windows 7 install, and replaced it with windows 10. There are driver issues now with the graphics chip-set (no official support) and he is unable to comprehend the UI changes, so cannot check his email unassisted any-more. He paid for a product (Win 7) that was compatible with his computer and it has now been replaced with one that he did not knowingly sign up for or offer compatibility with his existing hardware. Surely this is a pretty clear case for legal proceedings - I'm not going to do it as it'll take years and not improve his quality of life in anyway. So I'm going to put a "Pirated" copy of Win 7 back on his computer to restore the what he paid for.
Wonder what'll happen when (not if) THAT copy gets upgraded to Windows 10 as well? And we find this is true for ANY copy of Windows 7 AND they find ways to defeat the anti-GWX measures, probably by way of a boot-time program? Oh, and jumping to Linux is not an option because one key program is Windows-ONLY, WINE-UNfriendly, and VM-incompatible?
No, jumping to Linux is not on because of old dogs and new tricks, my folks (in their 60's) have already begun that transition - one on fedora, and the other ChromeOS (so pretty close). But to be blunt - when your at the stage that basic self care requires professional help, dealing with a new UI to stay in contact with your family is really not on the list of things to do. (shame as if I'd pushed em over 10 years ago then they could prob. still be on Gnome2 with a rolling release and be perfectly happy)
"No, jumping to Linux is not on because of old dogs and new tricks, my folks (in their 60's)"
Just for reference, in their 60's doesn't actually mean they are all that old. They were in their probably teens at the start of the Disco era. They were probably in their mid 20's at the start of the share boom when Yuppies with red braces were all the rage and the home computer boom began.
Be honest, when you think "65" or "pensioner" you see a minds eye picture of Miss Marple :-)
"Wonder what'll happen when (not if) THAT copy gets upgraded to Windows 10 as well? "
My experience with pirated win7 installs (in outer bumfuckistan) being upgraded to win10
1: 2 weeks to download the update. Yes, bandwidth really is that bad there.
2: a day to install the update. Yes, the machines really wore that underpowered.
3: after firing up, relatively ok BUT the installation realised the original serial numbers were fake, so nags every 10 minutes about pirate software and "pay $30 to get a legal version"
These boxes were Dells - originally sold with Ubuntu onboard and "upgraded" to Win7 before being placed on desktops.
The ironic thing is that Lubuntu + Libreoffice suited the outfit's needs perfectly, "but it isn't windows"
"The ironic thing is that Lubuntu + Libreoffice suited the outfit's needs perfectly, "but it isn't windows""
If they have to correspond with people who use Microsoft Office, particularly heavily-scripted files, then it never has, does, or will fit perfectly, simply Microsoft is a moving target. It's Writer's Conundrum: they would much rather avoid Word, but the editor insists on it for annotation, and he's between you and the publishers who pay the royalties, so...
"If they have to correspond with people who use Microsoft Office, particularly heavily-scripted files, then it never has, does, or will fit perfectly,"
Libre imports and exports office formats adequately for the purpose. Scripting isn't an issue.
As stated in another thread: "80% of Office users only need 20% of the features." Which, incidentally is how MS took over the WP market in the first place (fewer features than what existed but 'good enough' and cheap.)
MS being a moving target was actually a factor in switching to Lubuntu/libreoffice - too much stuff was coming in in newer msz formats the existing software couldn't open, etc.
Compatibility issue solved. Licensing issues solved. Network printing/scanning issues also solved. Recurrent virus/malare problems solved. Productivity up by a factor of 5 or so. Old hardware life extended (important where the average pay is $4/day). Documents now all regularly backed up, etc. Yes, all doable with windows but the existing systems were crawling anyway and the desktops are now fairly snappy.
"Libre imports and exports office formats adequately for the purpose. Scripting isn't an issue."
Perfect or not at all, as the other side won't accept a document that's been converted and back unless it's exactly as it was before since they depend on their particular format for their business. And scripting WILL be an issue, as plenty of El Reg Commentards can attest. And you still haven't solved the Writer's Dilemma (the author who has an editor who insists on Word, and LibreOffice write doesn't convert annotations too well last I read).
MY local councils "Child Services" department use a number of active scripts and file types that ONLY open correctly with Office - versions from 2008 onwards.
ACTIVE FUCKING SCRIPTS !!!!!!!
Still, at least they have FINALLY dropped Fax as the only way they will send out invoicing information.
"You've got a month to roll back. It might not roll back properly, in which case you could boot into safe mode and run Jellybean Keyfinder to find the serial number and key then reinstall using an ISO from wherever you want."
A newly-qualified lawyer in magic circle firm can be £425/hour (story in Independent, if anyone's interested). No-one's going to hire lawyers to resolve this, although if some of that profession decide to prove that they actually did go into law to help people, and take on MS pro bono, for their own hourly rate times two to three hours work, then that could be a lot of fun to watch ....
Imagine a double glazing firm, lets call them Microglaze: You paid them for version 7 of their windows for your house (which worked fine) and they came back a few years later in the middle of the night, ripped out your windows while you were sleeping to 'upgrade' them version 10 of their design (better locks and prettier mouldings), only to find that you needed new lintels to use them, and so ran away leaving them half installed new version of their windows lying on your patio - you know trading standards would be all over it like a puppy and burst football...
Go to the Police and report it as a crime - Section 3(3) of the Computer Misuse Act 1990. My suspicions are that you'll get one of two equally unhelpful responses, but you never know.
The first one I'd expect would be "Eh ?"
The other might be "Ah, another one"
If, just if, enough people actually complain then they might have to take some action. And there's just that tiny tiny chance that if the office in Reading gets a visit from plod asking awkward questions about criminal activities then they might just change tack.
Or we wait till someone with the wherewithall starts a class action and sues them to oblivion - in the US of course.
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I wouldn't have W10 now even if Microsoft paid for the hardware. Anyone using arsepipe tactics like this has thoroughly disqualified themselves from access to my machinery. They clearly cannot be trusted if they are prepared to stoop to tactics like we have seen; and have repeatedly demonstrated that they will further their own agenda irrespective of the wishes of, and cost and damage to their customers.
We're seeing a bit of a sea-change with software companies, possibly driven by the advertising industry who have been using our time, electricity, bandwidth and MIPS without permission for ages (and who then have the temerity to bitch about it when they're blocked). Then the likes of Adobe started getting on board...there really isn't that much justification for a graphics manipulation program to be online unless you're storing everything on the cloud and using online images which not everybody does. That and the "stop whatever you're doing because it's Adobe time until we say you can have your computer back".
Now it's one thing for advertisers to be trying this sort of thing, because they are unprincipled lying fucks and we've got used to that. Adobe seem to be getting away with it so far; but I have seen a number of designers who have walked away.
An operating system, though, is on a completely different level. It's the foundation for everything else that happens on that computer. If the trust is gone, you don't have a product anymore. Microsoft is a behemoth, so the full effects will take some time to show themselves. If they survive this sort of behaviour, I shall be quite disappointed in my species.
"An operating system, though, is on a completely different level. It's the foundation for everything else that happens on that computer. If the trust is gone, you don't have a product anymore. Microsoft is a behemoth, so the full effects will take some time to show themselves. If they survive this sort of behaviour, I shall be quite disappointed in my species."
I'm ALREADY disappointed. Just look at the American political picture. We seem to be down to choosing between a megalomaniacal misogynist and a corporate-toeing political windbag who's been around the block several times already. And no other country really offers any better, which leads me to believe this is no more or less than standard human behavior at work, which means we're pretty much doomed; the only question is how soon. Do we slouch increasingly into nothingness or do we just start World War III and go out with a bang taking the planet with it?
What I would like to know, is if Microshaft force WIn10 updates that lead to large estate of borked PC's that are not 100% WIn10 compatible and costing lots of man hours and money to put right or worst case, a death in a medical situation, are they liable, or do they have a pet lawyer/judge/politician/president somehere making rules up as they go along ?
Having lots of lawyers only helps if the case is arguable. If the situation is that the end-user expressed a desire to skip the upgrade, but was overruled and then the upgrade broke the computer, then that's a fairly open and shut case of hacking in most parts of the world. (The fact that a massive corporation used inside knowledge to hack into your system is not going to mitigate in their favour.)
The question is ... is that the situation? I've got quite a number of Win7 boxes that I keep for testing and they all have the GWX icon in their notification area, but none are forcing me to upgrade. As far as I know, I haven't done anything. (That's deliberate. I keep these as clean system images, for testing.) I'm just not getting the arm-twisting that I see reported elsewhere.
So what's the full story?
You aren't alone. I know of someone who gets the nagware prompt him occasionally, but he dismisses it and it then leaves him alone for a while.
Yet I also know of plenty of forced installations - and before I took control of Windows Update on my own hardware, I was almost upgraded against my wishes a couple of times, late last year.
@Ken Hagan - I've got quite a number of Win7 boxes that I keep for testing and they all have the GWX icon in their notification area, but none are forcing me to upgrade.
@VinceH - I know of someone who gets the nagware prompt him occasionally, but he dismisses it and it then leaves him alone for a while.
Much seems to depend upon Windows Update and GWX registry settings specifically the DisableOSUpgrade key - Remember GWX Control Panel doesn't actually do anything special, it just makes GWX's configuration settings visible and presents them in a user understandable way ie. it is a Control Panel for GWX. (Okay it also does a few other useful things, like check for the Win10 download folders.)
But in general if you have the GWX icon in the system tray then GWX is active and there is a high probability your system will be upgraded at some point in the coming weeks via the GWX scheduling update described in the article. Because it is only in the system tray because OS Upgrade is enabled.
Yes - but the person I mentioned hasn't installed anything to try to resist. No Never10, no GWX Control Panel (and updates are still set to automatic).
It's just the raw Microsoft nagware letting him off the hook.
So far.
I have told him I fully expect that to change - and because he's a non-technical user, I've suggested the various tools. However, because he hasn't seen any signs on his computer of the update using trickery or trying to force its way in, he's unconvinced it happens, and so has declined the tools.
It sounds to me as if he's protecting his images inside a blocked network, and applied patches manually. Yeah, you're not going to get forced upgraded in there, unless you drop the force10fromRedmond package on it and go to town. My copy of XP is well protected as well, on a DVD-ROM disc in a drawer. Same thing.
If you're talking about the person I was referring to, then no, he isn't. He's just a typical, non-techie user who has a Windows 8.1 laptop that he connects to his network at home, and to the one in the office.
If you're talking about Ken Hagan above, then (being a reader of this esteemed site) I think he'd probably know what he's doing and would know why he's not getting the forced updates instead of pondering why in this discussion.
@VinceH - re: He's just a typical, non-techie user who has a Windows 8.1 laptop that he connects to his network at home, and to the one in the office.
Wouldn't surprise me if his "use case" is what's protecting him, so the background drip of Win10 downloads really is a drip and not a steady flow. I've seen this with a non-techie user where they only have sub-1mbps ADSL and had the system on only when they were using it, when I investigated some problems last month, it was still downloading the November 2015 update to Win10 (v1511 Build 10586)...
Aside: Apologies in my post, I didn't explain why I mentioned GWX CP, the main thing was that running it in standalone mode (something a non-techie user can do without too much techie hand holding), made the real status of the machine with respect to GWX visible; normal users don't usually have all system folders and hidden folders visible in file explorer, so don't see the Win10 download folders and the system recovery folder, slowly and quietly growing in size. Hence running GWX CP, was a simple way to determine the state their machine was in, without them doing any fiddly techie stuff.
"Wouldn't surprise me if his "use case" is what's protecting him"
It's a good thought, but I don't think so.
When he's using the laptop to work at home (and sometimes when away), possibly - I don't know how much use he makes of it, or what his internet connection is like.
I do know about the office, though - it's a full working day, usually four or five days per week, and they make extensive use of the internet. And the same connection has been good enough for a number of other machines to have had Windows 10 unexpectedly installed.
@Roland6: I'll buy that theory. Whilst my test machines do get used, they also get rolled back to whatever state they were in at the end of the previous month's visit to Windows Update. As far as that disc image is concerned, the machine was installed many years ago but is only ever switched on once a month and left on long enough to pull down the latest Win7 updates and then (depending on my whim) it is either switched off again or it is subjected to a full disc clean-up and then switched off.
None of this would be conducive to downloading many gigs on the sly.
This a comment and question for my fellow Commentards... Warning rambling ahead...
Why the windows 10 update annoys...
Putting Mac's to one side for the moment, with PCs we buy the hardware. Now, the hardware may come with a pre-installed OS or not. We have the option of using that OS or replacing it if we choose.
This is unlike most electronic products we buy where the software and hardware come hand in hand. E.g. set top boxes, we don't expect Pace to let us put other brand firmware on the device.
MS are trying to take ownership of hardware that isn't theirs. I haven't bought a "Microsoft PC", I bought a PC that I chose to run Windows on unlike say an Xbox One where you've bought a product and bought into an ecosystem.
Which leads me to my other main grievance. Forcing an ecosystem upon us. Its not about buying an operating system anymore, its about my data being the resellable product to an ever increasingly data hungry marketing machine. I already have that with Google.
How do you guys feel about it?
"I bought a PC that I chose to run Windows on ... How do you guys feel about it?"
I feel like I'll "choose" to run something else on it in the future.
I didn't realise when MS said last month that "the nagware will go away from July", that they meant "we'll have nuked all Win 7/8 installations so won't need it anymore"
I follow your line of thinking for the pc/set top box/IoC device, but I think you have the issue reversed. We need to stop treating things that are really computers with software and firmware as if they are not exactly that. It shouldn't matter if it's a tablet, phone, desktop, or CCTV camera, you should be able to enable a root/superuser account and push updates to it. You own the hardware.
IM(Not really all that)HO the vendors need to: 1) provide that access, 2) timely patches for a reasonable support window, 3) either the ability to take the device offline, or open up the platform drivers and let the community manage patching it 4) load alternate firmware/software 5) Control deployment of updates that may introduce a breaking change.
BTW, as a bonus to anyone who made it this far, you still get one last chance to avert the install by declining the license clickware, if you decline it it must abort, and even the M$ marketing trolls won't risk the fury of the fiends in M$ legal by voiding the EULA.
"BTW, as a bonus to anyone who made it this far, you still get one last chance to avert the install by declining the license clickware, if you decline it it must abort, and even the M$ marketing trolls won't risk the fury of the fiends in M$ legal by voiding the EULA."
They'll fix that at the end of June. They'll make it "shrinkwrap"-style and make it accept by default by simple fact the software is being installed (much like you voided a refund by opening the package). And if the law gets in the way, they've probably got some cartel stewing to get the laws changed.
> They'll make it "shrinkwrap"-style and make it accept by default by simple fact the software is being installed (much like you voided a refund by opening the package).
Not even MS will try that, because they know already that's it's illegal AND they have already been smacked down for it. The vendor you purchased the software from CANNOT refuse a refund because you've opened the shrinkwrap UNLESS the full (and complete, and readable) T&Cs are printed so they can be seen before opening it. That's basic law, not just in the UK but in the US and many other jurisdictions as well - you CANNOT enforce a contract where one side did not know the terms before accepting it.
That's why these click-thorugh agreements contain guff about "if you don't accept these terms ....." - they have to or the contract is void by law in many jurisdictions.
So if they didn't present an agreement, with the option to decline, then any contract they may wish to enforce on the upgraded software is void. They are stuffed, and their spywaretelemetry is also explicitly illegal in the UK as you won't have consented to it.
This is fairly basic law - pity so many consumers are just so completely ignorant of their rights.
You still own the hardware. If Windows chooses to commit suicide, you still have the hardware and are free to install the OS of your choice. Presumably you have backups of all the data on the system that you consider important, and the installation CDs for all the applications to re-install on the new OS. (No, I'm not trying to be smug here. I know most people don't. I'm just trotting out a line of argument that Microsoft probably would use if this came to court. You *can* mitigate the cost by keeping backups, so the fact that you haven't done so shouldn't entitle you to compensation over and above the cost of setting up the machine again.)
I think what gets people's goat is that Windows 7 (or 8.x) doesn't need to commit suicide. It was working fine and re-installing everything just because Microsoft have made changes that you did not authorise (and in many cases explicitly refused) feels like getting hacked, by Microsoft. It kinda makes you want to chuck a brick through *their* windows.
"You still own the hardware. If Windows chooses to commit suicide, you still have the hardware and are free to install the OS of your choice"
I also own the software, or at the very least, a licence to use the software - including support until 2020. At this point, MS are effectively revoking the Windows 7 licence and replacing it with a Windows 10 licence.
"You still own the hardware. If Windows chooses to commit suicide, you still have the hardware and are free to install the OS of your choice. "
Yea, you 'own' the hardware. But permission to use it is 'endowed' by the UEFI. Wish you good will from the [REAL] UEFI owners. As of today they authorize 'COMPATIBLE' OS to boot.
Which leads me to my other main grievance. Forcing an ecosystem upon us. Its not about buying an operating system anymore, its about my data being the resellable product to an ever increasingly data hungry marketing machine. I already have that with Google.
How do you guys feel about it?
Its funny you should mention this, I totally accept whatever google/Samsung do to my phone and Tablet although it does piss me off that apps keep sucking me dry, I mean my battery so I run Battery Doctor app every time I want to put my phone in my pocket or hibernate the tablet these are mostly built in bloatware that cannot be uninstalled. But due to privacy an security issues I would never put credit card details or use cloud or even browse the internet on them, just skype, fb and whatsapp and phone calls and texts on the phone.
But a PC is supposed to be secure and if using a good anti-virus software and security updates supplied from MS up until Win 7 were fine - maybe !
With the debacle that MS has been doing since Win 8.0, I personally have lost all faith in MS and even though I personally tried Win 10 (for 2 and a half months) the day it was released and hated the look and feel of it as well as the security nightmare with not being able to block telemetry totally and select updates that you want or do not want unless maybe you are using the Enterprise edition really grated with me as a long time MS Windows user (Since Win 3.1).
People keep mentioning programs that can do this and that to sort stuff out in Win 10, but I know MS and there way is the only way (Right or wrongly) in their opinion. So it won't be long before it starts to mark anything it disagree's with as either a virus or malware and then will block/un-install/un-modify said modifications that it deems are not in it best interest - Now MS Window fanboys will jump up in arms and say nay, you malign such a wonderful trustworthy company and I say none are so blind as those that refuse to see !
MS wanted to force all software through it's holy grail the Windows store (charge 20% royalty/fees for the privilege) and companies like Valve's Steam saw their business model coming to an end thats why they started the Linux Steam box etc and so have been actively pushing the Vulkan API rather than DX12 as its totally OS agnostic which is great for gamers using all platforms and their business model as well.
Well I have been using Linux Mint and now Ubuntu since Feb this year and can no only do everything that I could in Windows but my laptop an i7 CPU really purrs along now, so much more efficient and rock solid stable, i just reboot it once a week just for the hell of it as the updates haven't so far required a reboot !
I am just wondering if all Governments have access to Win 10 telemetry data and that is why there have been no action from them - I don't really want to sound like a conspiracy psycho but there certainly seems to be enough evidence for them to at least say something.
Another point is that I cannot imagine any non-US corporation that deals with sensitive data go anywhere near Win 10, just in case so stupid mistake happens from MS's point of view and their data then goes over to good ol' U S of A servers for god knows what foreign competitor to look at !
Just my 2 pence worth !
n00b here. I understand the idea of Never10 setting things like Registry entries to stop Windows Update downloading this particular (cough) "update". But if Microsoft want to be evil, can they not just get you to download a new update of Windows Update itself, one which Microsoft had written to ignore any such Registry entries, so that this new version of Windows Update would download the W10 "update" anyway?
It's an arms race. If MS introduce more arsehattery, Steve Gibson will rewrite the program to counter it. So you wait a bit for an update then run it again. And there's GWX too (http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)
Microsoft have promised to stop pestering people to upgrade by the end of July, so in theory you only have to hold out that long, if they are to be believed.
Never10 implements MSs own KB to disable the nagware. It's the KB that is issued to enterprise customers. These guys are the goose a-laying golden eggs so MS is unlikely to crater them.
Normally, I'm an unashamed MS apologist but this latest twist is too much to find an excuse for. W10 is a great product but these practices are appalling.
"Never10 implements MSs own KB to disable the nagware. It's the KB that is issued to enterprise customers. These guys are the goose a-laying golden eggs so MS is unlikely to crater them."
Easy counter. Compare the KB to the version which Microsoft can easily glean. If they find an Enterprise KB in a Home installation, they'll know something's fishy. The ultimate move will be a zero-day guaranteed install. They introduce a new KB, rated Critical because it actually does come with a critical patch to a real zero-day already in the wild (so blocking it means you risk getting pwned), but the patch also locks down any and all attempts to block the installation. They can do it two ways: by altering the boot sequence (something usually too touchy to fiddle with unless you're Microsoft) or by acting like Wheatley and, "Surprise! We're doing it now!" meaning there's no time to undo it once it's acquired.
Never10 implements MSs own KB to disable the nagware. It's the KB that is issued to enterprise customers. These guys are the goose a-laying golden eggs so MS is unlikely to crater them.
Sorry to say MS has already screwed them many times, I have a friend who works for a big company the name which I cannot divulge (otherwise I won't get anymore info) but suffice to say they have done updates that have screwed them several times and have had to roll back several thousand PC's while MS fix the issue and sometimes even after they supply a new KB its screws them again, luckily they roll out updates carefully after testing but still some of them manage to not cause an issue for a few days to a few weeks later which means more of them need to be rolled back the longer the time frame takes to expose the issue !
But for corporate business this is just part of daily life with MS so are actually more forgiving although the bigger they are they are likely to demand compensation and get it as they can say we are seriously looking Linux rather than Windows as a future desktop etc whereas as home users we are just one individual and the loss of revenue is very small compared to losing a corporate account and knowing that the Linux camp would use this as leverage to other corporate businesses !
as home users we are just one individual and the loss of revenue is very small compared to losing a corporate account
I wouldn't be too sure about that. The people who they're pissing off are the ones who do support for others. When I go, for example, I'm taking 10 or so people with me and moreover won't be doing support for W10 because I simply can't be arsed with the learning curve. Further, everyone who has had their machine bricked, or who has had their company lose a day or more of work, or who has had the update forced on them at an inconvenient time is going to quite possibly become an evangelist for an opposing team (mac, linux, whatever).
Massively pissing off a huge group of nerds is really not a wise thing to do. Considered individually, it might not look like too much of a problem, but the knock-on effects may be quite a lot more serious than Microsoft seem to currently realise.
Are these stupid nags coming from KB3035583 (which I've hidden for what seems like the hundredth time a few days back) or a combination of that plus KB2952664 (which was up to something like Revision 20 just recently) and maybe a few other W10 related 'updates' for W7?
Just wondering because I've never seen any of them with my Windows 7 Professional 64 bit. Mind you, I only have security updates and very few 'optional/recommended' ones installed after Service Pack 1.
Of course, I don't have any of the 'back ported to W7' telemetry or W10 'nag' updates installed and I have used Never10 and Spybot Anti-Beacon as well just for good measure.
Doesn't matter too much to me anyway - thank goodness for a Linux Mint dual boot. Windows 7 can now stay offline until the 'All Clear' siren sounds at the end of July (hopefully).
"No, jumping to Linux is not on because of old dogs and new tricks, my folks (in their 60's) have already begun that transition - one on fedora, and the other ChromeOS (so pretty close). But to be blunt - when your at the stage that basic self care requires professional help, dealing with a new UI to stay in contact with your family is really not on the list of things to do. (shame as if I'd pushed em over 10 years ago then they could prob. still be on Gnome2 with a rolling release and be perfectly happy)"
However, there are some Linux distributions, such as Linux Mint Mate, Linux Mint Cinnamon and Zorin, that are particular Windows-like so that the learning curve is not all that great. Indeed, I've come across some smaller businesses which have made that transition to those particular distributions because of the Microsoft licensing costs for multiple copies of their Enterprise edition software and because of concerns over malware.
Gotta love the reg Mint fettish :) (Im not opposed but why mention the Mint flavour of Mate (which is Gnome2 continued...) or Cinnamon, Zorin is however getting pretty close to a drop-in replacement. Maybe this cluterfuck of badwill that MS seems to be trying to generate will prompt more people to look into ReactOS (https://www.reactos.org), I've played with the last release a bit and it's fast approaching usable. Unfortunately the issue in this case is not the slope of the learning curve, but the very existence of a learning curve at all...
I gave Windows 10 a fair shake whilst it was in beta and after its release and I've come to the conclusion that other than the (crippled) start menu and DX12 it simply doesn't offer anything compelling over Win 8.1 so that's where I'll be staying until 2020 - after that? Who knows - if MS have clued up to user privacy being a big deal and they put genuine effort into making a secure OS (like Apple have been doing with iOS) then maybe I'll 'upgrade' to whatever they're selling then.
If not it'll probably be a flavour of Linux - not that I want to - I'm pretty happy with 8.1 and all my applications and games but Win 10 is a course change I'm not willing to follow and if I have to make changes and/or sacrifices to switch then I will. I built this PC - Windows is just a guest on it.
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You can have your cake and eat it too! Just install a virtualization solution, I like VirtualBox, and then get a cool helper tool like Vagrant(vagrantup.com, ya'll), and prop up as many virtual Windows or other OSes as you please! There's a LOT going on outside of the Windows world, some crossover stuff to be sure, but the bulk of new and interesting solutions are not coming from Redmond. Check out W10 in a few months, when it's safe, and in the meantime get cracking on some new skills in the form of some virtual linux and other containery goodness.
I came to bury Windows, not to praise linux distros! I feel for all of the Windows-Only folks who have to live with this mess. Just a really awful situation for what should be a happy new shiny thing.
The funny thing is that I recon the next version of Windows may be the one that actually delivers. "Containery goodness" you say? Having played with the Ubuntu compatibility layer, and docker on windows - I think the distro wars are finally about to be put to bed. MS is trying to convert to a semi-rolling release without fully working it out, once they fully start copying RedHat 1:1 then things get interesting: Windows Rawhide for the consumers and Enterprise Windows for the corporates. The benchmarks so far show that once they have sorted out the file-system overhead that Windows Server is more than competitive for Linux workloads (at least for synthetic benchmarks). It makes perfect sense for them, they are already pushing out Linux based appliances for networking, and means that they just need to produce/port a management layer over whatever they need. As much as people on her would love for Linux based systems to "win" i can assure you that market movement is primarily based on the quality of lunch your sales rep buys you. 2017 the year Linux *containers* hit the consumer space, doubt the kernel will.
This is beyond insane! How can this be even legal??? M$ just committed corporate suicide with this over the top desperate move by going directly against the specific will of their own customers NOT to upgrade! This is pure dictatorship on a level never seen before for a corporation!
So what are you going to do? Lots of software is Windows-only with no substitutes, lots of hardware only has Windows drivers and can't be virtualized due to them being too obscure, and WINE still isn't ready for prime time. Not even Steam can get half their library (including many headliners) to their SteamOS.
Not even Steam can get half their library (including many headliners) to their SteamOS.
Be patient my son, be patient - Vulkan is arriving and it is the only logical API to use for game devs of the future !
As you know games takes 1+ year to develop and soon we will see the power of Vulkan on Linux and then maybe your tune will change. Nvidia Vulkan drivers are now at V1.0.8.
I am impatient too but sadly we can only wait and wait.
Mind you COH2 works fine and so does War Thunder on Linux via Steam!
1. The fact that not one government entity on the entire planet has lifted a finger (so far) to protect people from this garbage suggests to me that they're all in cahoots with MS. Money talks and all that.
2. Surely governments using Windows 7 or (God forbid) 8.1 at all levels worldwide must be affected by this as well as ordinary people and businesses? If not, then goto1.
3. Since nothing is being done to stop them, MS just keep 'pushing the envelope' further and further. They're long overdue to be regulated by the US Government. After a massive fine and the sacking of Nutella (sic) and his cohorts, of course.
"They're long overdue to be regulated by the US Government. "
Ahem. See #2. Microsoft is probably IN BED by the US government. Their telemetry is likely being fast-tracked to the NSA data center/quantum decrypter in Utah, so they're actively motivated NOT to interfere with Microsoft. And combined (as well as combined with their software domination), anyone else who tried to shirk away is liable to find the going very uncomfortable.
Surely governments using Windows 7 or (God forbid) 8.1 at all levels worldwide must be affected by this
No, probably not. The Enterprise version of Windows does not qualify for the free Win10 "upgrade." Also, admins can control the updates to Pro versions that are joined to a domain, so they can block the infamous KB3035583 GWX malware at the LAN level.
I haven't gotten that nagging screen yet.
I have purposely screened every update list for Win 10 upgrade-updates.
I have decided to use Win 7 for a few more years on my desktop PC. I've updated my portable many months ago to Win 10, just to see what it's like. I use my portable only a few days every month and can live with it.
I've screened all the updates for 7 as well. Last week or so, KB3035583 showed up as "Important," pre-selected for installation on one of my PCs. Needless to say, it was promptly returned to "hidden" status, but I was a bit chagrined that the GWX adware would be set as Important.
I'm running windows 7 on a desktop which is also my media server, happily. There is the 'get windows 10' icon that sits unobtrusively on my toolbar and every few days I get the little blue box nagware show up which I take no notice of but do recall it recently said something about concrete.
I click the X ( which is blue, or grey and in a white box) and it goes away for a few days. Has ever been thus.
I did install W10 on this machine some time back but the then video drivers were useless for my multi screen setup and I just could not be bothered fixing so immediately rolled back. Interestingly it then told me that my software was counterfeit ( it isn't ) and required some restarting and using the genuine software thing to resolve.
I will upgrade to W10, there is no reason not to in my eyes. I just won't do it yet.
I will not be changing operating systems because I can't afford to replace my considerable software library or have to go through learning new software for some tasks that are now second nature to me with Windows OS versions.
I know people's mileage is varying with the W10 nagware but for me personally it's not even been an annoyance. I did the upgrade on the Acer and Asus laptops and apart from the unfamiliarity of it from W7 it's been no problem to use.
> I click the X ( which is blue, or grey and in a white box) and it goes away for a few days. Has ever been thus.
But if you follow what's going on, at some point an "update" will change the meaning of that X to "yes I actually want it". And if you get around that, then the next update (reported here) removed both the X and the "click here for other options" link.
So it will auto-install, and the only option will be to decline the licence agreement at which point it will attempt to roll back to where you were. Just the install, decline, rollback will make your computer unusable for several hours each time - assuming that the rollback actually works and you're not left with a doorstop.
Question, if Microsoft forces you to update your operating system, since they do not give you a option to say no to the upgrade, They are essentially not giving you the option to say no to the user agreement. And since you don't have an option to say no to the user agreement, There is no meeting of the minds. So would that not nullify any user agreement that Microsoft wanted to imply. I'm not a lawyer, But would Microsoft have any legal standing for the user agreement. I kind of doubt it. legally speaking Microsoft could be shooting themselves in the foot as far as their user agreement goes. they could lose all rights to control the software or even charge for it at a later date. It might essentially become public domain.
any opinions on this.
The Win7 EULA probably has some language in it to permit MS to deliver "updates" to the system. Since they aren't actually charging money for Win10, they could probably argue that it is a service pack. Indeed, I've argued in these forums on several occasions that it should be treated as such and that MS will probably turn round in 18 months time and discontinue support for 7 and 8.1 (8.0 is already gone).
If you are running an OS that is eligible for the upgrade, you already have the spyware. It was retro-fitted last year.
If you just bin all the metro shit, the desktop UI still runs fine on large and multiple monitors.
I'll grant you the driver trouble, pausing only to point out that nearly all USB-based hardware shouldn't be using a kernel-mode driver anyway and so if (for example) your old printer doesn't run on Win10 then it is because your printer vendor is deliberately withholding the INF file (trivial for them to generate and sign with their keys) that would let any sane (ie, user-mode) existing drivers carry on working.
Microsoft is not giving this operating system away just to get good publicity. If it is, it's not working. It's collecting data on every system. your data. Anything and everything that you might want to keep secret. Every question you ask, every search parameter, your personal photos, anything they want they will have access to. You will have no privacy in Microsoft's vision of the world. So you might get a good operating system, But you lose your rights to privacy. I guess it comes down to which is more important to you, the right to privacy, or your operating system. I live in the US, not Russia, North Korea or China. I have a right to privacy. It's guaranteed by the federal government. And I do not like a company, That tries to infringe on my rights as a US citizen.
Well said that USA citizen !
But we all live in the digital word these days even us here in ol' blighty and an Orwellian society is here to stay, so either put up and shut up or get of the bus and use Linux like any sane intelligent person that respects privacy !
Vote with your feet rather than your mouth, thats what I did and it just takes enough people to do it and maybe just maybe things might change !
I did say maybe !
There is one side benefit and that is the more users using Linux the better it will get, so making Linux a more viable threat to MS ECO system hurting them, I just wonder how long it would be before Govs step in and banned Linux as being the perfect OS for Terrorism or such like !
Because MS perceived it a real threat and Security forces always use that excuse to enforce what they want onto society whether we want it or not, and it also gets them a bigger budget !
J J Carter,
A very good suggestion .... if only it tied in with the reality WE are experiencing.
'Accept' presupposes that there is a choice.
It also means that I have the right/ability to NOT ACCEPT.
MS is forcing people to 'Upgrade' to Win10 by all means fair & foul.
That is what is angering so many people.
If Win10 is so good it will convince all the doubters in the long run by its own excellence.
Unfortunately, nothing to date is justifying the 'manifest benefits of a modern OS' comment you have made.
All people see are MS having a total lack of regard for their Customers of old and a unrestrained desire to control the Computers of those same Customers to monitise their own data and every action for the foreseeable future.
My Hardware is mine, my Data is mine and who controls it is MY choice !!!
I guess it was just a matter of time.
Microsoft knows pretty much most of the PCs / Laptops in the world were running their software & they are the de facto monopoly on the operating system that most people interface with on a daily basis.
My guess is they have also finished making deals with all the 5 eyes and any other governments that matter, to let them get anything they want via the back door as long as it is kept on the quiet.
So now they decided they want it all for themselves & don't want to share with anyone else, and there is no need to listen to their "customers" as they view their customers now as their "indentured servants", they know only a few rebels will make a break for freedom & all the rest of the sheep will continue.
I would guess this is the beginning of trying to turn Windows into an iOS like experience, where for now you have some freedom, but eventually your PC won't boot to anything but windows "for security" and then you always are forced to get the latest version installed (and if your PC stops working because of an update, then "the supported life of the device is over" and you must buy a new one), then next applications not signed by Microsoft won't work "for security" then eventually only corporate editions can load software not from the Microsoft center "for quality purposes" and then eventually any hardware manufacturers will have to pay Microsoft to let their hardware work with the OS.
Then somewhere along the way it comes down to.... Your computer won't do anything unless Microsoft has your credit card number & you have a valid "subscription"... sure your new PC will come preloaded with a "free" subscription that lasts a year or so... then it's ... fork over the money.
For a comparative example, imagine if one oil company headed by a power mad untouchable CEO controlled all the oil supplies in the world from the fields to the gas pumps.... Sure some rebels would build electric, bio fuel, hydrogen vehicles etc.... but not enough to be a threat.... now imagine how much power said CEO could start wielding...
Some will escape to freedom in Linux and OSS but most will eventually go down the path of being told what to do, it seems unfortunately the modern generation doesn't care to look under the hood.
For an experiment, what percentage of people do you know that if you said... the computer is crapped out, go ahead and format & re-install the OS, would know where to begin or how to complete?
Sad but true and when you try to explain the situation to them they just look at you like you are the stupid one that needs to be locked up to protect society whereas in reality its all of society which needs protection from itself !
So the question is how do you made stupid gullible ignorant blind sheep actually start to be intelligent free thinking individuals of society !
Now thats the 64 dollar question or was it the number 46 ?
I think some of the problem lies squarely at Linux itself, as one question always thrown up is - if Linux is so good which one do I use !
Maybe if there was only one distro with different skins like, Mint, Cinnamon, Mate etc etc etc that would help, but then again the Linux community thrives on differences.
And for me it would be so good if SteamOS because the dominant OS for games, then maybe we would having this same conversation against Valve !
I reinstalled both my parent's PCs with pirated Windows 7 using the Daz Loader. One came with XP originally, the other came with a crapware OEM Windows 7. Both were getting notices before I installed GWX Control Panel.
I really hope Microsoft doesn't override the functionality of that, but given their evil quest to put Windows 10 everywhere I am seriously worried that one day I'll get a call from my parents that their PCs are acting funny, and find they've been upgraded to Windows 10 and probably don't work quite right anymore.
how do you revoke the "trusted" authority - but leave the seller on the hook for supporting products they accepted money for, for the useable life of the item you bought? If <insert elderly relative of choice> is told by the sales guy that their new machine will be good for three or four years, and the machine comes with Win 8.1 (and some still do, they're easy enough to find), how is the seller providing a product that's good for three to four years if Win7 changes to Win10 without giving you any choice to say "no"?
It's not just an ugprade, obviously - if it was a service pack, or just an upgrade, they would be up front about it, and we'd have a list of bugs it fixes ....
Cos updates for Win7 are fooked.
I finally went through all of the May updates, to see what was safe (about 50% of them), then clicked to download and install them; after an hour (on my 80Mb connection), it had downloaded - precisely nothing!!
I'll bet that if I had allowed all the Win10 fuckware, the shit will have downloaded and installed before I finishing clicking the "Download now" button.
BTW, Dont download the "Malicious Software Removal Tool" either, last months fucked my machine, and I had to find and enter a new licence number (the old one was valid and legal).
Luckily I had a spare for a machine I installed Ubuntu on instead.
My netbook is due for a refresh, so that will get either Ubuntu or Mint; no more sales revenue for M$ from me; the are joining NPower, British Gas and PayPal on my eternal shit-list.
"I finally went through all of the May updates, to see what was safe (about 50% of them), then clicked to download and install them; after an hour (on my 80Mb connection), it had downloaded - precisely nothing!!"
Only an hour? I left (works) Win7 Laptop running over night just to *get* the list of available updates. It finished about 12 hours after starting. So at 10am this morning I told it to install the selected updates. It's now about 11 hours later and it's not downloaded anything yet. Still at 0%. On a 100Mb/s connection here.
This is the first time I've tried using Windows Update since March. I just don't have the time to have my laptop out of commission for 24+ hrs.
Check with your Windows admins at your site! They probably have already blocked all system's access to the updating mechanisms, or rather the site is a proper Windows enterprise site and your various AD and other server hosts are quietly protecting you from a fate worse than something, I forget what it was now.
Dadmin,
The problem is nothing to do with the admins.
Over that last few months the process of performing Win7 Updates has been getting very very very very slow.
If you have to get your update over the internet and therefore have to wait for MS to provide them, by pure coincidence, Win7 updates are taking days.
Meanwhile Win10 updates are as fast as Win7 used to be.
I believe this is another strand in the attempts to push people towards Win10.
If you are forced to perform an update of your Win7 build it will take so long that you will either give up and go the Win10 route or lose attention and be more likely to 'accidentally' start the win10 'Upgrade'.
I remember many people saying how they hated windows 7 and no way would they move from XP the very same people are now saying they hate Windows10 and no way will the move from Windows 7 or 8.1 how amusing not one of them went to Linux or Apple even though they were options so like it or not windows10 will be the new windows 7/8.1 life just continues to evolve so stop busting blood vessels and go with the flow embrace whats new and chill out
I don't recall all that many people "hating" Win7. Some of those who did hung on 'till the bitter end then switched to Apple or Linux. Windows 8, on the other hand, was a whole other kettle of fish and even that became bearable once various start button shell replacements came along to get rid of TIFKAM.
Annoyingly, I have to remote into the office regularly and most of the stuff I need to access is only available over RDS and the people there seem to like TIFKAM so I'm stuck with the steaming pile of dingoes kidneys in that situation..
I remote into our servers every day not a problem and was part of a team that rolled out windows 7 to 7000 XP pcs and laptops believe me did I get my ears bashed on a daily basis for months now speak to them and the same response according to most windows 7 is the best XP had been forgotten as will windows 7, 8 and 8.1 and newbies to computing will only ever know Windows10 hence life will Evolve and just like dos, 3.1, 95,,98,ME, 2000 and ,XP, Windows 7, 8,and 8.1 will all become history so if you don't go for it now you will in future or go with what ever other options you choose.
All as I am saying is why bust a few blood vessels it will be in vain excuse the pun.
We have a mixed environment Wintel a few Linux Servers and a handful of Macs dotted about but we go with the latest in Oses as soon as testing as confirmed all is ok not just for security but also to make use of the new technology that's available.
There will always be personal likes and dislikes no one can force anyone not even Microsoft you have a choice but try making it quietly.
I find from the comments that its more the people who dislike something trying to force others to follow there lead
Have some punctuation: .,;:().. :)
FWIW apart from the gratuitous UI change (menu ordering, locations of .cpl stuff, HLP transmogrified to some obligatory IE-based format etc) that seems to be prevalent on pretty much every 'new' Windoze release, v7 wasn't much different WRT the UI from W2K IMO: it lost most of the XP/Vista 'prettification' that most experts loathed & most newbs found confusing, & introduced proper multi-threading & 64-bit capability (therefore properly utilising those 'new' multi-core 64-bit CPUs that were starting to appear on desktops) rather than the Intel fudge with hyperthreading
Apple at that time were still recovering from their braincrash from the last 15 years or so, & didn't have a /mainstream/ competitor in the desktop/laptop stakes (although they'd been working up capital through iPod sales & phones).. plus IIRC at that point they were still fairly proprietary WRT hardware..
I've given in & installed W10 on most of my personal systems 'cos I'm too old now to be bothered fighting it, but you can be assured that the first time M$ asks me for a CC to perform an 'upgrade', or 'requests' my telemetry details or similar, they'll be told precisely where they can stuff it! That being said, once Classic Shell is installed there aren't that many changes (notwithstanding the GUI cruft mentioned above), so it won't bother me that much..
BS, utter BS I was an early adopter of Win 7 pro 64, in fact I downloaded the Beta 6 months before it was released and was so impressed that I pre-ordered Win 7 64 Pro with 50% discount at £90 from PC World so don't give me that crap about the same users that wouldn't upgrade from Win XP are the same one's that won't upgrade to Win 10 that is just utter BS and just the type of thing a typical MS Fanboy says to justify how stupid they really are ! You just need everyone to validate your pathetic reason that you downgraded to Win 10 !
300m users on Win 10 and only just above the user base of Win XP users !
Doh if it was so great why doesn't it have 100% of the Win 7 and Win 8.0 users - hmmmm waiting for an intelligent response now, hmmmm - oops how can I get an intelligent response from a Win 10 user !
Now take MS out from up your ASS first with DX12 before speaking !
Sheeesh
Sorry, I just had to respoind to a real F**King TW@T
My apologies to all non-Win 10 users !
Oh and all those that were force to upgrade as well, even if they didn't or hadn't any intention of doing so but MS screwed your PC into doing so anyway !
"Microsoft seems to be engaged in a policy of mopping up as many outlying pockets of pre-Windows 10 as possible to avoid any potential conflict between the new operating system and PCs already in the market such as those on Windows 8.1 or, worse and much older, Windows 7"
I'm guessing they won't reach the robot checkout machines at Sainsbury's which seem to still be running Windows XP ...
While I don't presume toll m speak for others, with respect to my equipment, you can suck it. I'm not upgrading ANYTHING to Windows X. It sucks, it's horrid, it's not intuitive, it's noisy, it's clunky and its invasive. The only way I'd even remotely consider it is under the following conditions:
1) Implementation of the full Aero UI
2) Stop recording my shit, this includes mouse clicks, keyboard responses, search results, cookies, etc. Just stop!
3) Do NOT change anything to what you think is better than the way I have it configured. It may not be the most efficient way, but it works in a way that's predictable to me.
4) Do NOT assume that I want to participate in any cloud based or "as a service" offering. It's still my hardware and my data, you have to right to redirect it.
5) Revamp your entire support site! It sucks and I'm tired of having to dig to find some error code, only to get redirected to a page promoting windows 10.
Meet these 5 demands and I'll consider it. But I'll tell ya, the jackass who took the reins after Balmer has made my decision to ditch all things MS pretty easy.
On a side note: Tim Cook should really consider awarding Nadella salesman of the decade, for Apple...
Actually there is a simple way to avoid having it come up at all. I have a Win 7 machine that never showed that popup from MS once.
I had disabled the update to IE 11. Turns out that if you don't have IE 11, it doesn't nag you as, for some reason known only to someone at MS, IE 11 is essential to the update trigger.
>> I had disabled the update to IE 11. Turns out that if you don't have IE 11, it doesn't nag you as, for some reason known only to someone at MS, IE 11 is essential to the update trigger. <<
You might be on to something there.
After I heard about the sneaky W10 ad wrapped up in an IE11 security update a couple of months back I have since done a clean install of Windows 7. First thing I did was remove IE8 (which came with 7 SP1) using Programs and Features.
I know that doesn't really remove IE - just kinda 'hides' it but it's enough to stop Windows Update from offering my IE11 or any IE updates whatsoever. Which is just fine by me because I use Firefox all the time.
has anyone at MS read the Computer Misuse Act? Unauthorised modification / access?
"Dear Microsoft,
You are explicitly forbidden to access my computer to install or attempt to install any software containing advertisements, prompts to install Windows 10, or any components of Windows 10 itself, including but not limited to causing any such software to be installed on any computer that I own, unless the explicit and identified item is referenced in the EULA that was in place on the day I installed the operating system. Any such attempts or efforts will constitute unauthorised access, and as you have revised the EULA over time without giving the opportunity for individuals to negotiate specific clauses, this change shall come into force without giving you the opportunity to discuss it further."
These are the moments I realise I'm an old fart and things aren't the way they used to be. Anyone remember those endearing arguments from fanbois way past..?
<quote>Sorry, but I've no time screwing around with my OS. Sure, Linux is all very nice and idealistic, but I've work to be done, and no time to tinker around with my OS. That is why I buy my software from a reputable company and don't use this "free" crap. It is all very good and very nice, but let's face it, if you have a job to do, your computer should just work, and get out of your way to let you do what needs to be done.</quote>
Hmmm, so how is that productivity nowadays..?
The latest tactic seems to be bricking Windows 7 machines pre SP1 (ie what happens when you do a restore). I had to use WSUS to get this one usable again as it wouldn't update, period.
$Deity knows what will happen on a dinosaur like this when it tries to update but given that it is showing a warning message about system configuration press F1 to continue on every boot it will probably die completely (booo!)
The latest tactic seems to be bricking Windows 7 machines pre SP1
I suspect the reason why updates failed is that during the early days of Win7 MS released some KB's out of sequence, so to install SP1 you had to install one of the later KB's first... From memory, because I haven't had to restore a non-SP1 Win7 machine, WSUS Offline applied the updates in the correct sequence.
As part of your Win7 recovery, I recommend grabbing the roll up KB and some of the KB's it excludes - for details see: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3125574. Although if you are using WSUS Offline it will create an appropriate update set.
Just checked WSUS, and no fresh changes for Win7 since last Patch Tuesday.
That means that MS have just been biding their time. If you didn't have the nagware installed already, you won't see this particular incarnation of it.
God knows what they will push at us on the 14th though.
IANAL, but doesn't that constitute Misuse of Computers somewhere along the line?
Or do the terms of Win7 (et al) basically state you absolve your self of any/all choice? Or (worse) that the wording regarding "updates" is that they are offered without warranty, and WinX gets labeled as an "update" to get them around it?
Disclaimer : I have WinX (Home & Pro) on two machines, and don't hate it. Only gripe is the "Oh hai, buy Office 365 plz" self installing appvertisement...
So whilst the NAG screen is up, close all other windows, do a Ctrl+Alt+Del, start task manager & check the processes for the process that is the NAG screen. Open file manager, find the process file that is the NAG screen, that directory is the windows 10 upgrade NAG directory, now open properties on the directory containing this file & set security permission to NONE for the system on that directory.
The NAG screen can NO Longer launch ! Job Jobbed, never to be heard from again !
You will also find a hidden folder containing the Win10 upgrade files located on your root directory or C:\ do a web search for details, called something like Windows10-BT IIRC, just delete it if you do NOT intend to upgrade to Windows10. This will give you a few gigs of disk back that MS stole without your knowledge !
Have fun.
Given how often Microsoft's "Windows whatever will run on this machine" really meant "Windows whatever will load on this machine but then respond like a deaf dog with only one leg and a ten-ton weight tied to his neck so you may as well go out and buy a new machine now", the only surprise for me is that most people are not reporting the normal sort of problems with Windows 10.
Or is it just that we're so busy spotting all the spyware and privacy invasion that we're not bothering to mention the rest any more?
On one of my spare laptops I get the upgrade message only for it to churn through the process and come up with a BIOS is unsupported error (Dell Inspiron 15R N5110) . This happens every time the laptop is fired up.
Upgrading the BIOS would be simple if the battery still worked.... I am not shelling out for a new battery for a laptop I barely use so I can upgrade to an OS I don't want.
Note: I have Win 10 on my gaming PC - but compared to Win 8 it is an upgrade :)
I thought the Computer Misuse Act made illegal any activity on a computer not authorised by the owner. The use of the 'close' box for assumed assent is clearly questionable, as is sending out an ultimatum requiring an owner to choose a data in the next 5 days. And yes, I do know that Windows OS is licenced, but I believe the Act refers to misuse of a Computer.
I expect the MS board reckon they can get away with it as they have a near monopoly on desktop and laptop processing OS.
I swear to god I have never read so much whiny crap in all my life as there is in this comment section. They are offering it for nothing.
I have already installed Windows 10 on at least 15 machines, 5 of which I took no backup precautions. On each occasion not a single desktop icon was left out of place after installation was finished. Apart from the privacy issues it is a really solid operating system and I can easily see it overtaking windows 7 or even Windows XP in stability and popularity.
You guys are simply a bunch of whiny "holier than thou" Linux snobs. I'm glad you aren't anywhere near any machines I have to work with.
Did it then roll back to W7 or 8.1 OK for her?
I've heard it doesn't in a lot of cases and people then have to try and fix the mess or do a clean install of W7 or 8.1
In my opinion, the license agreement should be presented to the user BEFORE the W10 install starts. Not when it finishes.
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