Rats revive phones-and-cancer scares

Mobile phones do cause cancers – and rats' cells are modulation-sensitive. That's what emerges from a preliminary study dropped on a pre-print server by America's National Toxicology Program. That news comes a few weeks after a huge study covering decades found that mobile phones weren't killing us. The new study hit the …

[Notas Badoff]

Live longer with cellphones? (or boffin mafia?)

The bit that got my attention was the controls (as a group) dying earlier than the test subjects (as a group). And the female rats not having a problem. And other oddities, like the dosing regimen being so much/long.

Is this a variation on the usual summarization for studies:

"These results are intriguing and introduce many questions which should be studied further in following studies."

Which I always read as a plea for additional funding. But here, with this study, it comes across more as

"Pay us to do the study again correctly, or this stranded result due to poor planning and protocols will haunt you for forever."

[Mark 85]

Re: Live longer with cellphones? (or boffin mafia?)

That is odd. Now why they released this to the media is puzzling except as clickbait and to create another round of nastiness like the one about vaccines causing autism. They should have re-run the tests. Something seems very odd indeed.

[frank ly]

Re: Live longer with cellphones? (or boffin mafia?)

"And the female rats not having a problem."

In the report, Table 2 shows female rats having brain lesions. Hardly any with GSM but some with CDMA. Tables 3 and 4 show results for heart lesions with similar male/female and GSM/CDMA differences.

Tables 5 and 6 are 'interesting' because they show lesions for all sites (not just heart or brain). These tables show an apparent protective effect whereby exposure to radiation gives lower rates of lesions compared to the control group.

Yes, this needs more studies.

[TRT]

Re: Live longer with cellphones? (or boffin mafia?)

They need to produce controls for the dams. Do they go on to have litters that display the same characteristics? Has the RFR damaged their reproduction? Does it affect their lifespan? You certainly don't produce the unrelated subjects that their statistical analysis appears to require.

[cd]

Re: Live longer with cellphones? (or boffin mafia?)

"And the female rats not having a problem."

Put them behind the wheel of a minivan.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: Live longer with cellphones? (or boffin mafia?)

There was an effort recently to replicate results, I believe in psychology, and the replication failure rate was horrendous. Having read some on the basic experimental design problems, often these studies suffered from poor design, improper use of statistics, very small sample sizes, poorly chosen samples, and worst of all a failure to understand correlation does not equal causation.

[Schultz]

Pay us to do the study again correctly ...

Which is a perfectly reasonable scientific approach. Explore an exotic hypothesis with a small amount of resources and invest some more money only if the preliminary results are interesting. This approach helps to remove 95% insignificant hypotheses (plus a few false negatives) before serious money is being wasted.

[Tom 64]

How convenient...

... that the America's National Toxicology Program would find an American modulation standard to cause less cancer than the opposing one.

[a_yank_lurker]

Re: How convenient...

Never said the ferals would not stir the pot to favor a little home cooking.

[Infernoz]

This just shows what lies by selective statistics the '29' year meta study was.

It is easy to design a meta study to indicate a desired result by excluding studies with unwanted results and including studies which are poor or fraudulent science. You should not automatically trust any study where there is a possible conflict of interest e.g. via lobbying, career corruption, corporate sponsorship or direct corporate involvement.

This was a better designed /lifetime/ study not designed for mobile corporation/cronies agenda, so the full effects were seen, and not absent due to poor environment design and not enough time for cancers to form.

The reason that the modulation type makes a difference is because it is the microwave pulsing patterns which cause cell damage, not heating, and the study was designed to eliminate any heating effects.

[BenM 29]

Re: This just shows what lies by selective statistics the '29' year meta study was.

Regarding your last paragraph... got research to prove that hypothesis? Links to peer reviewed science or you, sir, are a purveyor of woo.

[Flocke Kroes]

Re: Purveying woo

Mr Infernoz may well be a purveyor of woo, but not necessarily because of the last paragraph. The difference between pulsed and continuous microwaves on (yeast) cells is something I come across years ago (debunking cellphones cause cancer scares). I tried to find the article again, but it is one tree in a forest (is there a way to tell Google that 'pulsed' is important for this search?).

That forest includes studies where the modulation made a difference, and studies where it didn't. The quantity of studies where modulation is tested suggest that researchers in this field consider modulation an important factor in cell phone/cancer research/funding.

I applaud your skepticism, but recommend you follow it past a comment full of references. Last time I made the effort, I found some links supported electromaganic paranoia, some behind a paywall, some did not exist and a few said the precise opposite of what the commentard claimed they did.

I regularly find some quite disturbing results with rats that are not repeated when the test animal is more big-headed and thick skulled.

[Arthur the cat]

Re: Purveying woo

I regularly find some quite disturbing results with rats that are not repeated when the test animal is more big-headed and thick skulled.

What, you get to experiment on politicians?

[Jeffrey Nonken]

Re: Purveying woo

"What, you get to experiment on politicians?"

Managers.

[PNGuinn]

Re: Purveying woo @ Flocke Kroes

Have you references for that somewhat startling suggestion that our politicians are not in fact rats?

[Mark 85]

Re: Purveying woo @ Flocke Kroes

Have you references for that somewhat startling suggestion that our politicians are not in fact rats?

Politicians aren't a whole rat. Only the part holding the tail. The rats know this and don't get offended by us calling politicians: rat's asses.

[Dagg]

Re: Purveying woo @ Flocke Kroes PNGuinn

That is nasty! I have a copy of pet rats and they are nice, clean, honest and cuddly. To imply that politicians are rats is an insult to rats.

[graeme leggett]

Whether this is a "better" designed study or not, its findings should be replicated first as they seem to run counter to other studies and the epidemiological data (ie mobile phone usage up but no corresponding cancer increase)

[Anonymous Coward]

"its findings should be replicated first as they seem to run counter to other studies and the epidemiological data (ie mobile phone usage up but no corresponding cancer increase)"

As far as I know there is no epidemiological study of mobile phone usage in rats which can be used as a comparison to this study.

I think part of the problem here is purely and simply experimental design. Cancers are known to be caused by many things including virus infections, ionising radiation exposure and a combination of genetic factors and chemical exposure. There is no known mechanism for non-ionising radiation at low intensity to cause disease, so any hypothesis being tested by an experiment like this one is very weak. (The link between tobacco and smoking has been identified not only by large population experiments carried out by the tobacco companies, but also by lab experiments showing that chemicals in tobacco smoke can cause direct biochemical changes in cells, i.e. there is evidence that supports one or more mechanisms.)

Before conducting an experiment, surely in vitro experiments are needed to investigate the effects of mobile phone radiation directly on cells? Then, if a mechanism is discovered, research should be carried out to find out if this mechanism operates in vivo.

As suitable sources of the cells for in vitro experiments, could I suggest some of the people who complained of health effects from the wifi installed in the middle of Glastonbury - during the period in which it wasn't switched on? People so sensitive to radiation that they can detect radiation that is going to happen at some point in the future would surely make ideal experimental subjects, and a null result might bo considered conclusive.

[a_yank_lurker]

Replication

The study needs to replicated several times on the very real statistical chance it is a fluke.

[tom dial]

Re: Replication

Hopefully with samples a bit bigger. In general, the findings, so called, in this study seem to be generally in line with with what one would expect in random trials.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not worried I only use my phone while wearing a tin foil hat.

[BenM 29]

Being radiation sensitive, I have a tin foil hat (Costco catering foil is the best) and my wifi router is similarly equipped... and my uranium glass collection is stored in a lead box that I never open ;)

[swschrad]

yeah, well, I have my Trinitite sample in a baggie in the ham shed.

and I suspect you have crappy wifi service.

[Mark 85]

Re: yeah, well, I have my Trinitite sample in a baggie in the ham shed.

Indeed, but it also probably keeps the neighbors from using his data quota.

[Ru']

I have now replaced my tin foil hat with one made entirely of rats (a mix of male and female of course, the exact proportion being tailored to whether I am making voice calls, using mobile data, or using the wi-fies).

I must admit it's a bit more scratchy and bitey than the foil, but I am certain it will be worthwhile.

[Jeffrey Nonken]

Rats make good pets, but the males especially tend to wee on you. I'll bet your hair smells WONDERFUL.

[Flocke Kroes]

Modulation makes a difference

"It seems wildly improbable to The Register that the difference between CDMA and GSM modulation somehow triggers a different response in rat DNA."

Studies have already shown that time varying microwave signals cause higher rates of apoptosis than continuous ones - in yeast. GSM uses time division multiplexing - over simplified, phones take turns to transmit, and spent only about 1/8th of the time transmitting. CDMA transmits continuously (multiplexing is done with codes). Clearly telcos with a high number of yeast subscribers should use CDMA.

Pre-liminary cell phone/cancer experiments often show interesting effects like higher cancer rates in the ear furthest from the phone. Regrettably the cancer preventing properties of phones often disappear when studies become large enough to be statistically significant.

[Fred Flintstone]

Well, duh ..

.. given the nature of the study you should have smelled a rat - literally.

:)

[Anonymous Coward]

The closes explination I've seen is...

That there is slight warming from the phone/device (probably not from microwaves, as I'd assume too weak to cause this).

The difference in GSM/CDMA may be in encoding and thus length of power output/pulses? So even on the same frequency, one draws more power than the other (and more heating from the device).

The slight warming causes more growth/better health in all cells, including cancerous. So it's not that the animal is given cancer, it is that it is healthier (not as chilly) and so grows quicker (AFAI remember some worms grew larger under experimentation).

Though not seen any hard evidence for this yet.

[TRT]

Re: The closes explination I've seen is...

They accounted for pulse-width by using radio frequency exposure detectors in the cages and compensating for mass of tissue in the cage. Thus for an adult female in gestation, the radio power would be ramped up to maintain the SAR. The dam is removed on day 21 post natum, up to 6 tiny rats are housed together for a further 14 days, then housed separately. The radio frequency generator would have to be turned down when the dam is removed and again when they are housed individually.

[garden-snail]

Rats

Rats that live longer are more likely to get cancer? No shit!

[TRT]

From what I can see, they used up to 6 pups from each litter, continuing the same SAR dose, then applied a parametric test designed for un-related subjects, i.e. limited life cancer studies after exposure to a test substance. The test has been validated, but I don't see the test having been validated against generational exposure; it's used extensively in the FDA testing regime. No account is taken of epigenetic or genetic inheritable traits. Thus their significance values are confounded. There's no indication of a MANOVA to determine if there's a link between incidence within related individuals. With n=90, the real number of unrelated individuals could be as low as 15. The "damage" may be done in utero, thus amplifying the effect 6 times over. Could easily be statistical noise.

[swschrad]

hey, no problem, give rats their own smartphones.

what's the worst that could happen, Pinky and Brain rule the world? even that's not as bad as Trump.

[jake]

Loose Translation:

"We're out of research funding, please give us more money ASAP, or we won't have rent money over the summer holiday!"

[Mike 16]

GSM vs CDMA

Well, if any old bit of electronics, including the average corporate speakerphone, can tell there is a GSM phone in the vicinity, perhaps (male) rats are similarly sensitive.

http://www.windytan.com/2013/01/the-gsm-buzz.html

After all, haven't we all heard of "music from my fillings"?

(not so much with the move away from metal fillings)

[The Islander]

They tested several groups of 90 animals as I understand it over a period of 90 weeks.

It would be terrible, indeed an appalling vista, if these devices were found to be injurious to our health over a long period.

[phuzz]

Given how we've gone from pretty much no-one having a mobile phone thirty years ago, to pretty much everyone having one by about ten years ago, if there is a link between mobile phones and cancer then we'd expect to see a massive uptick in the number of cancers across the entire population.

That no increase in cancer rates has been seen shows that there are no effects within ten years, and so if there are any cancers being caused, they must be taking a long time to form, because there's no sign of them yet.

[TeeCee]

an appalling vista

Christ I thought we'd got rid of that. You mean we're only in remission?

[Bill Gray]

Obligatory XKCD

Surprised this hasn't come up yet :

https://xkcd.com/925/

A lovely example of both the "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" fallacy _and_ of how to misuse scales on graphs to support silly conclusions.

[DropBear]

Re: Obligatory XKCD

Huh - turns out Black Hat guy actually uses Transformer Pads! The alt text mistakenly attributes his grip on the laptop's display to his intention to "make us cringe", but Transformer Pads are actually supposed to be held by their "displays" (a complete, heavy tablet) since the lower part only contains the feather-weight keyboard "dock", and the detachable hinge is a bit delicate. Then again this is Black Hat guy we're talking about - Occam looks a bit confused on this... :)

[BitterExScientist]

The Classics Work Best

This one is straight out of how to lie with statistics with academia's typical 'hot topic' modification.

Repeat the same study multiple times with a small sample set and eventually you'll hit pvalue = 0.05. Pick a hot topic and you don't have to repeat, just take your lottery ticket. You might not win but odds are someone will. News like this is why science has a reproducibility crisis.

[mstreet]

It goes to figure...

...that rats in contact with cell phones would live longer. Think of how much stress they save themselves, when they can give up hunting for food, and just order in.

Literally, taking themselves out of the rat race.

Shameless, I know.

[David Pollard]

It's that time of year again

The search is back on for the Yeti, maybe there are signs of life on Mars, amino acids have been detected in comets, and Steven Greer is in the news again with his miniature humanoid.