back to article Microsoft and Hewlett Packard Enterprise salute EU flag, blast Brexiteers

Microsoft and Hewlett Packard Enterprise have nailed their colours to the EU mast as UK government applies pressure on firms to encourage employees, customers and channel people to support the Remain camp. UK CEO Michel Van der Bel at Microsoft has penned a note in which he stated “first and foremost” the way people decide to …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The resources the government

    are pouring in to the remain campaign are staggering. Yet, without exception, everyone I have spoken to wants to leave Europe.

    **50 million quid A DAY!!! is what we send to our unelected "masters in Brussels".

    A DAY folks. How many hospitals, schools, prisons, USEFUL things would that buy and maintain.

    Enough to re vitalise the steel industry, coal, power, water etc. Bring them back to British control. Not outsourced to Johnny Foreigner.

    The reasons to get the F out of the corrupt cess pit that is the Eurozone are many and varied.

    The reasons to stay in serve only the upper echelons and high earners. The "haves" in other words.

    The "have nots" will, as usual be hit the hardest. Artificially deflated wages, jobs going to folks who really should be employed in their own country's.

    Don't think if we stay in either that the £ will stay, Camoron and Osbourne will have us all in the € the first chance they have.

    We used to rule 2/3 of the sodding planet, now thanks to Brussels, we are a pissy little island, fit only for the dregs of European scum bags who either want to milk us dry or blow us up. When the day comes, vote OUT!!!

    Soap box removed.

    ** Numerous variable figures on the web but that seems to be about the average.

    +1 for in -1 for out, just to see.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The resources the government

      I see it rather more prosaically. The economic arguments are null and void on both sides, doesn't actually matter too much either way.

      So its a simple choice of whether we wish to be run by the vermin of Brussels or the vermin of Westminster. Personally I'll settle for the vermin of Westminster, and if the vote goes that way, hopefully the Conservative party will then grow some vestigial spine and kick out the clueless toffs living at numbers 10 and 11.

      1. Chris Miller


        The only advantage for Westminster is that every 5 years we get an opportunity to throw the rascals out. If you think David Cameron is a useless toff, you don't have to vote for him. If you think Jean-Claude Juncker* is a useless drunk, you have no choice but to grin and bear it.

        * No doubt some euro-spinner will be along in a moment to claim that the President of the Commission is only the equivalent of the head of the civil service, and we don't get to vote for them, either. This is (to put it politely) bollocks. To quote from the EU's own web site: "Only the EU Commission is empowered to initiate legislation". So, if anything, more like the British Cabinet.

      2. Max Normal

        Re: The resources the government

        We currently have 8% total voting weight in the EU.

        There will be bumps in the road if we leave, but at least we will have FULL control, and be able to mitigate them for our benefit. The alternative is remaining in the EU, and having essentially no control at all in a declining customs union.

        There's a pretty good crowdfunded film making a positive case for Leave, 'Brexit: The Movie'.

        The film is much better than the title, and well worth watching if you're an 'undecided' or a 'remainer' with an open mind. Feel free to share the link.

        1. Yes Me Silver badge
          Thumb Down

          we will have FULL control

          Yes, we will have FULL control of our own economic decline. That's the decline that began in 1940 when we ran out of foreign exchange and were rescued by the USA; continued after World War II when our post-war austerity continued until about 1960; lurched along with devaluations and increasing national debt until the early 1970s; and then started to look up thanks to joining the Common Market, the North Sea oil boom, and deregulating the City financial centre.

          North Sea oil is over. If we leave the Common Market, we will also soon lose most of the financial centre. So we'll be back to falling trade, shortage of foreign exchange, increasing national debt, and of course continuous austerity. But we'll have FULL control, Yeah.

          Set a calendar reminder right now to go out and vote Remain on June 23.

          1. Speeednet

            Re: we will have FULL control

            You seem to be conveniently omitting the privatised industries, grossly over manned, under productive and run by megalomaniac union barons that would call a strike because the direction of the wind changed. It was these industries that sucked the nation dry and caused us (Well Callaghan and Healy) to go cap in hand to the IMF.

            For my part I would rather be run by the shysters in Westminster than the shysters in the EU, because at least we have the appearance of having more control over them.

      3. Yes Me Silver badge

        the vermin

        You're ill informed about who runs the member states of the EU. They are all run by their own national vermin. Yes, the vermin in Brussels do set a certain number of regulations covering a certain number of areas, but the reality is that they only affect a pretty small fraction of national life and national economics. I'm guessing you don't like free movement of labour; well, somebody has to clean the hotel rooms and pick the fruit and vegetables. Personally, I think the country is greatly enriched by the ebb and flow of other Europeans.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The resources the government

        as to the vermin, I don't really think it matters which one, local, or brusselized. Cut off the one far and away but the local one won't get any wiser awash (?) with cash.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The resources the government

      If only it was that simple.

      In or Out, nothing is going to change that this referendum is supposed to be about.

      The money going to Europe will have to be diverted back to the money we get out of Europe, farm subsidies for example, fishing quotas. I do believe we put more in than we get out but that is just to do with size of economy.

      Immigration, this isn't a vote on stopping immigration, in fact that's never been discussed properly. Does anyone actually believe any subsequent government is going to stop the cheap labour gravy train for their business chums?

      The have nots are going to get trod on no matter what, it's the way life is now until we have some kind of political or social revolution.

      The haves are just sitting back in their luxury armchairs eating foie gois wondering what all the plebs are getting in a fuss about.

      We did used to rule 2/3 of the planet but these days you don't an army to rule just control of the money. Which is funny when you think about it, if every country in the world is in debt then which planet do we owe it to?

      I'm voting in because to be honest there all scum but I'd rather pick the scum that at least look out for the people on occasion (ECHR for example)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The resources the government

        "but I'd rather pick the scum that at least look out for the people on occasion (ECHR for example)"

        The same scum that refuse to deport the illegally here, seriously violent murderers, rapists etc that the ECHR wont let us deport because they have a *family here?

        *By family I mean some arranged marriage or some other such shit.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The resources the government

          @cornz 1

          I can't take it seriously unless you include terrorists and paedophiles, it just wouldn't seem right. Have you been reading stories about one handed terrorists by any chance?

          The ECHR isn't perfect but here's the rub of the green, you can't have human rights for some and not for all and yes sometimes it does work against you but on the whole it's better to have them than to have nothing.

          Do you think our esteemed and trusted media are in the habit of extensively reporting when the ECHR has ruled against the government in favour of us citizens?

          Make your own mind up on it's usefulness,


        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: The resources the government

          The ECHR is of course not part of the EU and we would not be withdrawing from it with this referendum, making all argument on this point completely spurious.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "if every country in the world is in debt then which planet do we owe it to?"

        A small minority of very wealthy individuals who generally aren't listed on the offical "rich lists". Of course they must be very overworked in order to have earned such enormous wealth, or very fortunate to have inherited it without incurring vast taxes.


        The EU has been foisted on us deceptively, as have fiat currencies and legislation for mass immigration. "They" know that if the public had been asked up front whether they want to surrender sovereignty to the EU it would have been rejected. So our political puppets went ahead anyway, attempting to make the process irreversible and spreading fear when we are presented with a retrospective referendum (so they can claim the decision was democratic).

        If "they" introduced a fiat currency nobody would accept it given a free choice with a real alternative. So fiat currency was introduced deceptively without public mandate, by gradually substituting it for asset-backed currency. Similarly no self-respecting nation would vote to disenfranchise it's own population by inviting foreigners in great numbers to replace them and undercut the workforce, but immigration policies that allow this were passed.

        All these things are done to benefit a few at the expense of the many. If things continue this way, "they" will achieve economic and political control over the world population, assuming they don't already. Brexit is one small step against their globalist agenda. Vote wisely.

    3. smartypants

      50 million a day?

      According to the link below (which presumably is a source you trust) the net contribution in 2015 was around 8.5 billion - 23 million a day, not 50 or 55.

      To put that into some sort of perspective, for every pound we contribute to the EU (some of which presumably does help someone), we spend around 5 simply servicing the interest on our vast national debt.

      I know which figure I'm more angry about.

      1. Speeednet

        Re: 50 million a day?

        That is the net figure, we give £55m and get about £35m, big deal. And to add insult to injury we don't even get to say how that £35m of our own money is spent. In fact the UK has been fined somewhere in the order of £600m in recent years for spending it wrong, that is to say not to the letter the way they told us to spend our own money.

        1. smartypants

          Re: 50 million a day?

          "<~20 million> is the net figure"

          ...and surely the only one that matters... apparently not to people who want to win an argument by providing misleading statistics.

          I have no problems with people deciding to stay or leave the EU. I have a lot of problems with all the bullshit being spouted by proponents of both sides. Screaming about a gross contribution to the EU without mentioning that most of it ends up spent in the UK is not particularly honest really, and frankly most of the pamphlets I've seen on brexit aren't even worth using as toilet paper. (If only they made them less glossy).

    4. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: The resources the government


      Don't think if we stay in either that the £ will stay, Camoron and Osbourne will have us all in the € the first chance they have.

      Georgie knows that the Euro is a dead currency. He and Gordo Broone knew that and everyone at the Treasury breathed a huge sigh of relief when the Euro crisis hit.

      Besides, we have an opt out of the Euro and AFAIK, that ain't going away anytime soon.

      Sp please expand on why Dave and George would want to ditch the £.

      Dave won't be fighting the next election as PM anyway so why would he want to get rid of the pound?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The resources the government

        If we stay, the € is a dead certainty for this country.

        1. Lars Silver badge

          Re: The resources the government

          "If we stay, the € is a dead certainty for this country.". No that's not true.

          1. Chris Miller

            Re: The resources the government

            It's true that we will not be compelled to join the euro if we remain, but unless we do we will have almost no influence. An ever increasing number of decisions are taken by qualified majority voting and the euro-bloc controls an absolute majority (and all new entrants are required to join, so that majority can only increase). As a result, most decisions (and all financial decisions) will be taken with a view to increasing the power to the bilge pumps on RMS Titanic, a situation that will continue until the bow finally disappears under the water.

            It's also quite wrong to use net figures to define our contribution to the EU. If someone stole £900 from you and used it to buy you a new sofa, would you say "well, that's OK then, I haven't really lost anything", or would you feel that you might have spent the money better on something you actually wanted (and anyway you could have bought the same sofa for half the price)? And £900 is the amount every household in the UK spends on EU membership every year.

        2. AIBailey

          Re: The resources the government

          If we stay, the € is a dead certainty for this country.

          Did you actually RTFA? Only, if you'd bothered, instead of frothing at the mouth as soon as you saw the headline, you'd have spotted this - "by 2020, all but five member states of the EU are due to be euro members and Poland is likely to join by then as well, leaving just the UK, Denmark, Sweden and Bulgaria outside."

    5. Yes Me Silver badge

      Re: The resources the government

      "Yet, without exception, everyone I have spoken to wants to leave Europe."

      You must have a very limited circle of acquaintances. Also, leaving Europe would require a very large saw and a very powerful tugboat. I'm not being pedantic: leaving the EU is very different from leaving Europe. Actually, because of what Scotland will do and the unpredictability of the Northern Ireland situation after a hypothetical Brexit, leaving the EU is more like leaving the UK than leaving Europe. Leaving our local free trade area with nothing to replace it would, of course, be madness.

      The important thing now is that every single pro-Remainer goes out and votes on the day.

      1. phil 27

        Re: The resources the government

        Re the "Yet, without exception, everyone I have spoken to wants to leave Europe."

        I think there's some kind of style guide been issued by the bodies funding the brexit crowd as nearly every shouty post making this point I've seen has said this exact phrase. And you have to pepper the discussion with END OF and absolutes if its the BBC HYS or similar swivel eyed loon locations.

        There's one forum I frequent it was quoted and the main shouty people were all saying "WHEN we leave" and "NOBODY will vote" I posted up actually I know quite a lot of people voting to stay for logical reasons. THere was this short pause, then it continued with the same rhetoric.

        Speaking on behalf of absolutely everyone, having someone correct you, then carrying on doing the same thing is a huge insult in my book. It might work on the weak minded, but I'm hopeful there's enough logical people who think for themselves to resist this tactic.

        Now by and large we are logical here, we deal in logic (IT), have brains wired for it (ok maybe not some of the phb's). I for one would like it better if you could lease keep your reasoning to logic not the daily fail style sheet responses.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The resources the government

      "A DAY folks. How many hospitals, schools, prisons, USEFUL things would that buy and maintain."

      So how many hospitals, schools, prisons USEFUL things, the equivalent of that DID buy (every day) before the UK joined the EU?

    7. Patrick R

      50 million quid A DAY!!! is what we send to our unelected "masters in Brussels".

      "...How many hospitals, schools, prisons, USEFUL things would that buy and maintain."

      You forget to say that, in your head, you get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in return. NOTHING AT ALL. Right?

      Imagine how many USEFUL breads you could buy if you didn't have to give that money to the baker.

    8. Baldy50

      Re: The resources the government

      Yep 50 mil a day is a lot of money for not a lot in IMHO, look at France 1.3 bil on one road, 2 bil in Portugal and over the past ten years a staggering 10 bil in Italy and just how much EU revenue was given for road repairs here? They are also spending EU revenue building bridges in Romania, Poland, Bulgaria and Greece.

      Yes we do get funding to the amount of 4 bil back out of the 12 bil it costs us, but not spent where I would like it and I'm sure Birmingham city centre is much better now except we have to pay to go around it if you want to get past it a bit quicker that is, a free ring road would have been a better use of EU funding!

      It puzzles me a bit as quite a few of our MP's ride bicycles so they must be painfully aware of the state our road system is in! Hard asses as well as heads.

      Building houses near me like no tomorrow but not much in the way of roads for the families who will occupy them in an already congested area. Schools are thankfully being improved and expanded but just wonder how long it’ll take to drive the kids there?

      I'm no financial expert but I suspect many MP's and their cronies (business buddies etc...) have a vested interest in the status quo that exists in the EU market place, wouldn't want to have to renegotiate any tax or import duties for example and definitely not to force them to crack down on third world inequalities for the pure sake of greed.

      All produce coming out of Palestine is relabelled as produce of Israel as they do not have their own bar code and the farmers are treated very unfairly, big business cares about profit not it's workers in third world countries because they can.

      The steel industry is unfortunately doomed! We import steel for example from Germany where the Business rates are a tenth of the UK and energy is less expensive too. Then if you look at the suppliers outside of the EU with poor wages and working conditions we just can't compete any more.

      A lot of essential services in the UK are owned by foreign companies with little or no regard for the British consumer and in many European countries it is still illegal for a foreigner to have a controlling share in an essential service like water or power.

      Working in an EU country I had to pay the usual taxes for my health of course and into the wealth fair state system. If I paid in for one and a half years I could be entitled to three months assistance, but you had to pay in first!

      The EU and our own government has done nothing to help recover the vast sums owed the national health service or colleges and universities lost revenue due to the tourist abuse of these services.

      In 1953 the IMF cancelled half of Germany's national debt and we finally paid America back in 2007 for the help during the war! (Shit I mentioned it), SORRY!!!!

      It made perfect sense for the American government to throw money at Germany, to have military bases and to have such a strong influence in the heart of Europe.

      Rationing in the UK however didn't end until 1954, so quite a slow recovery really!

      I wonder if the Americans should pay us back for that illegal war they got us into, though since the world is so much safer now should we let them off?

      I hope they roast that Cheshire cat grinning toad BLier, can't wait for the Chilcot report.

      I think a German army has marched through Belgium twice this century without even stopping, so why are they suddenly running the EU?

      OK my guess is the Russian and Italian Mafia owns and now controls Belgium through years of infiltration at every level within the government, police etc... Knowing the former USSR was doomed, they asked for the Italian Mafia's help and with a substantial loan from the Vatican they managed to do what no invading army has ever done and this unassuming little country now rules us all within the EU member states. Who'd have thought to look there of all places LOL.

      Ok my rant and soap box away too!


  2. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    So what?

    “We appreciate and respect that there are a range of reasons that motivate people on both sides of the debate ...”

    Indeed, and I am taking care to not commit myself early, and to weigh up the relevant factors before deciding.

    What I won't do is pay any attention whatsoever to the opinion of a company which, to my mind, is operating very close to criminally in it's desperate efforts to move people off Windows 7 onto it's latest offering.

    1. David 132 Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: So what?

      “We appreciate and respect that there are a range of reasons that motivate people on both sides of the debate ...”

      Funny how all the "position guidance" missives we've seen from the big companies have such eerily similar phrasing. Almost as if they've been given a template to work from by Cameron, Rudd and their mates.

      Did Microsoft also include veiled threats of doom if the peons dare to defy their masters?

      Personally: If any cause is enthusiastically espoused by Cameron, Hague, Mandelson, Blair, Goldman Sachs, Roland Rudd and Vince Cable (to name just a few) I know EXACTLY which side to take, thank you very much.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: So what?

        Therein is an all together different issue but maybe that much different. Follow the money and ask yourself "why would the corporates care?" Same for the politicians. One would think that they would want the exit badly just to give them more power and not have to answer to Brussels. But... there's way too many who say "stay".

        1. David 132 Silver badge

          Re: So what?

          Therein is an all together different issue but maybe that much different. Follow the money and ask yourself "why would the corporates care?" Same for the politicians.

          Well, there's at least one explanation for that.

          Large corporations love the EU, because they can afford to lobby and construct a cozy little regulatory environment that suits them whilst raising high barriers against smaller competitors.

          Rejected politicians (see Kinnock, Mandelson, et al) love the EU because it gives them far, far more power over their electorates than they would ever have achieved otherwise. And they get wonderful, guaranteed, copper-bottomed pensions - provided that they never say or do anything to bring the EU into disrepute, or criticize it. Bear that in mind next time you hear Mandelson loftily pronounce on how we're all stupid for not joining the Euro and voting Remain.

          That's quite apart from the fact that the EU has firehosed money everywhere, so there's now scarcely a single ex-MP, charity or educational establishment that isn't suckling on the teat of EU largesse. It's our money, of course, but they do a very good job of taking it from us and distributing it to their chums.

          1. Sir Runcible Spoon

            Re: So what?

            Personally I think leaving the EU will present the UK with enormous challenges, but I also happen to think that this country has, at it's core, a real tough center. When the chips are down are when Brits are at their best. Make life too easy and we end up with what we have today, an apathetic bunch of ill-bred TV addicts that just want to get pissed and think that doing *anything* is too much like hard work.

            I vote leave, simply because it's the only voice we have. So many unpopular (or even illegal) policies have been shoved down our throats in recent years no matter what the general public thinks/wants.

            It's time to bloody their* noses and let them know we aren't beaten and downtrodden masses, yet. If we vote to stay then we haven't even made a stand (we could still all lose our freedoms to the mega-corps anyway even if we vote leave, but it might make them think twice and maybe back off a bit).

            Another thing that's been pretty obvious, is the absolute fucking desperation of the vote remain rhetoric (which isn't to say the Brexit campaigners are fighting without a few low blows too) but the sheer scale and perniciousness of the remain campaign tactics would probably make me vote to leave anyway just on principle - I hate people *telling* me what to do, rather than convincing me.

            The cut'n'paste fear tactics are getting so blatant even the x-factor crowd seem to be sensing something is a bit fishy.

            Vote leave: It might not make a difference in the long run, but if you don't it's probably the last most important thing you will ever get to vote on otherwise. In the end, once the mega-corps take over with their TTIP frog-boiling tactics, you will be lucky if you get to choose which brand of toothpaste to buy.

            *Mega-corps/IMF/Rothschilds/1%'s etc. (whoever holds all the debt anyhow)

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Disingenuous cnut

    Andy Isherwood, UK overlord at HPE, said it had “examined” the economic analysis of the “consequences of leaving the EU”, and concluded continued membership “brings a range of positive benefits to our business our customers, our employees and to the UK economy as a whole”.

    Their customers don't have people on site because they've been fired, their employees have been fired, and the benefits to the British economy have been safely offshored with the magic of accountancy and they have a policy of offshoring every job post they legally can. I fail to see how an apocalyptic Brexit scenario could be any worse.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Of course Isherwood wants us to vote in....

    ... if Britain is in the EU it helps his case for shoving what few UK jobs remain off to Bulgaria

  5. BillDarblay

    2 old,

    useless and shite companies lecture us on Brexit.

  6. Panicnow

    EU captured by big business

    US corporations head the list of spending on lobbying in Brussels.

    These same companies seem untouchable when they break EU laws e.g. Data protection, Hotel safety, Trade descriptions, copyright ,,,, and of course they pay virtually no EU taxes.

    Now explain to me how a group of EU citizens can influence EU policy?

    Note for an MEP who has usable no powers?

    Stand in line for 3 years to be given 5 seconds of EU executive time?

    Of course they rhink the EU is great!

  7. David Roberts


    At the moment I am favouring staying in.

    So it is a shame that all the people shouting and tub thumping for remaining in are the ones you wouldn't trust to tell you if it was day or night without going outside to check first.

    Then again there are some pretty dodgy geezers pushing for Brexit as well.

    1. Speeednet

      Re: Sigh

      If I look at the two camps Brexit and Remain, one things occurs to me. All of the people in the Remain camp have a vested interest in keeping us in, either jobs, pensions, business interests and future jobs when the get found out here. The Brexit group however do not seem to have any pecuniary interest in us leaving but seem more interested in retaining sovereignty.

      Just saying

      1. The Godfather

        Re: Sigh

        Don't you believe it.... Pro brexiters have their own agenda firmly set and once their personal aims are achieved, they'll let other sort out the mess.

  8. Cynical Observer

    Why Bother

    I was all set to write a rebuttal to some of the utter loose stool water dripping through some the posts above and then thought....

    Ah Sod it! It won't change any one's mind.

    Suffice to say that I fear for my kid's futures if the country votes to leave - and should that happen, I'd really appreciate it if some one could lend me an electronic thumb.

    1. Warm Braw

      Re: Why Bother

      The thing I find about all of this is that the people most in favour of "sovereignty" (whatever that is) appear to be the most distrustful of politicians while wanting to tighten their grip on power.

      I see two advantages in EU membership: it's a brake, if a somewhat ineffectual one, on the more screwball ideas of the swivel-eyed and it provides us all with some real democratic clout - if we don't like the way things are turning out in the UK (or wherever else), we can simply take ourselves and our resources to somewhere we like better.

      The alternative is to languish imprisoned in our island fortress, devoid of any constitutional protections, at the mercy of our effectively-hereditary establishment and to do what a paid-for US government tells us.

  9. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Down not across


      If we do stupidly vote to leave, will an EU country offer us pro-euros (particularly us who have spent a good few years living in other European countries) an offer of Asylum?

      I suppose the easiest option would be Emerald Isle given its vicinity and language (and being RHD in case you want to keep your current car).

  10. Zakhar

    Was U.K. ever in the EU?

    Not really... ;-)

    [Ok, ok, UK was a founding member once, and Winston Churchill called for the "United States of Europe", but probably this old guy was delusional!]

  11. Howard Hanek


    So MS is going to take Office365 offline for a few more days and HP is going to accelerate the expiration date of their printer cartridges IF you vote for Brexit? I see. The world is terrified of their retribution......or something.

    I suspect those things will happen no matter what the outcome of the referendum.

  12. a_yank_lurker

    The real reason

    If the UK leaves, companies will need to increase their bribe fund which hurts the bottom line and increases the risk of getting caught.

  13. itzman

    If microsft are for it...

    Its gotta be bad for me.

    Brexit it is then.

  14. Speeednet

    HP and Microsoft kiss EU ass

    I imagine a conversation going something like this:

    Hello Mr CEO of American computer company, EU bureaucrat here.

    How do you like the way we have been stomping all over your plans of expansion, data retrieval, data storage and price control?

    Not much eh?

    Good news, there is a way that we can come to an accommodation, those pesky Brits are cutting up rough about us taking £55m a day from them and just giving them shit in return. So use your weight to persuade them to vote remain under the jackboot, and we will sign the TTIP agreement and give you a get out of jail card for the next three infractions by your company.

  15. itzman
    IT Angle

    Cmon guys, some of you have studied system theory...

    Which is able to respond faster to inputs, and is more stable, a series of units with localised feedback coupled together with quite low overall feedback, or a mass of units coupled together all with delays and lags and just one overall feedback path?

    I mean, your car has spark advance and retard and mixture controls on the dashboard so you, the centralised authority, can monitor the engine state and continually adjust it as road conditions change?

    Of course it doesn't. The engine management system is almost completely autonomous and the only input the driver has is the go faster pedal, and even that isn't less and less mechanically connected.

    How many more incredibly bad decisions, incompetent blunders, failure to respond in time or adequately do we have to live through before the real reason for Brexit, that a tightly controlled political Union is a totally cr@p way to run a continent, for reasons that have nothing to do with politiics or ideology, becomes apparent?

    Igf I wanted to design a political system for a stable and flexible response to a changing world, out of te peoples of Europe, the first idea I would throw out would be a massive single centralised bureaucracy.

    Id probably start with tribes, and small geographical units, and put localised feedback in this, and call them 'counties' and then have them represented at a larger scale in pockets of similar geography, called 'countries. and then have a very very lightweight executive, probably on a voluntary basis, to handle continent wide issues.

    I certainly wouldn't have Germany trying to replicate the British Empire, in the 21st century.

    Empires are so last century.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    be afraid, be very afraid

    regardless of my personal views, it makes me uneasy when the big boys try to pull more strings than usual, by making such open statements, and I question myself: do I feel lucky to share the same interest as "them"? DO I?!

    on the other hand, at least this is one of those rare occassions, when they speak plainly what would be best for THEIR interest...

  17. itzman

    One final thought.

    Its fairly clear that Brexit would in the end trigger the collapse and breakup of the Union. And a lot of Turkeys would find Christmas came early this year.

    What is less clear is whether the Union is indeed viable even if Britain votes to stay in it.

    My personal perspective, expressed elsewhere is that it's not. The EU is so centralised and large its incapable of responding effectively to events, and that has been utterly rammed home by the financial and immigration crises.

    In some senses whether Britain marginally (and it looks like it will be a very narrow margin indeed) votes in, or out, is almost irrelevant. The tides of history are showing up the existential dangers of over-centralisation, just as they did in the Soviet Union.

    I would prefer we leave now, and be early adopters of common sense, but if we persist in our folly, we will eventually, like the Americans, do the right thing 'after we have exhausted every other alternative'. The only difference is how much misery and wasted money we might have saved.

    Leaving the EU is not turning our backs on Europe, becoming isolationist, giving in to xenophobia or indeed an instant cure for immigration issues. It is a single step on a road towards constructing a better model of governance better able to meet 21st century needs than the 19th century Brussels based 'Reich' we now have.

    Its not looking backwards, it's looking forwards.

    Given the state of the polls right now, and the amounts of money being poured into the campaign, Id say I'll get slightly more downvotes than upvotes for this.

    Even that doesn't matter. The tides of history are stronger than any bunch of Cnuts who try and evade their effect, and what will be, will in the end be.

    1. noboard

      Re: One final thought.

      What a great pro-exit post and pretty much sums up my feelings. I want out as the current system is basically an abusive relationship; see Camerons completely pointless 'guarantees' for proof, and the reason it's so bad is because the main party is dyeing and knows if we leave it's done for.

      I'd rather leave now, let it die and see what comes out of the remains. As far as I can tell most pro who aren't living in the EU, are afraid of the change, but big things generally start with a big change and I want to see where it goes.

      As for our corrupt politicians, we vote them in, stop and the problem goes away. A fair chunk of the UK electorate is pretty dumb in this respect.

  18. John 98

    listening to lies?

    Being old enough to remember the Suez Crisis, I can tell you we had already lost our national sovereignty by 1956. Wake up, smell the coffee

    If the European Union is undemocratic, some simple research will reveal that the UK government has steadfastly blocked attempts to remedy things, much to the frustration of many in Brussels.

    If we leave, we have no idea (nor negotiating cards, btw) what trade deals we will get with either US or EU. It is a leap in the dark. Watch Boris when the Yanks tell us to sign up for Schengen or starve

    This is before the other stuff - 3 million odd British living in Europe, Scots wanting independence, pound already fallen 10%,

    1. Dave 15

      Re: listening to lies?

      Suez ... a great example of our 'US' 'special friends' taking us without the benefit of lubrication.

      Much the same as the 'help' provided in WW2 was actually over priced and revolved around us paying with gold, later companies and finally land.Before of course the US helpfully helped themselves to everything they wanted in Europe.

      The support in WW1 consisted of letting us and the Germans try and outbid each other.

      I am quite sure both the US and the EU will think about making trade difficult until they realise they lose out. The US when they can no longer let us pay development costs for an unsuitable and out of date fighter for our carrier, and the EU when they want to offload another pile of 20 year old Spanish tanks on the MOD and BMWs on the police force.

      Even if both did decide better to cut off their nose to spite their face then we could trade with the rest of the world... all those Commonwealth countries we share values wit for example, China (not part of the EU but trading with it) and even Russia (who sacrificed millions to defeat Hitler and then sell us oil and gas despite us pretending to be shocked over Crimea).

  19. JMiles


    Ha, given the headlines they've been making its quite clear they have absolutely NO commitment to jobs in the UK. They should get back to keeping their bean counters busy with beatshoring.

  20. RonWheeler

    No surpirse

    They do exceptionally well in EU mandated procurement policies including putting all big IT purchases out to tender.

  21. Speeednet

    Brexit video

    This is well worth a watch and will answer several of your questions.

  22. Harry Kay

    Perhaps some of those bleating on here about ruling 2/3 of the planet, continuing to do advantageous trade deals, control of immigration, jobs etc might like to consider the following

    1. We lost most of the Empire by 1948, with the independence of the whole of the Indian sub-continent. Most other colonies went by the mid-1960s. The last vestiges went with the abandonment of the Sterling area in 1967 and military departure form east of Suez..

    2. We don't control our borders. Well, generally we do. We require all people who enter the country to show their passports - yes we have visa-free entry and right of residence to other EU nationals, but if there are people we specifically want to keep out, we can do so already. The one exception is people travelling from Ireland.

    3. Immigration. How, pray, are we to control this without a visa system - putting significant extra costs on border control, administration, visa issuance, work permits, registration, charging for visas (putting tourists off coming here) and so on. We would also need border controls and some sort of visa for people travelling from Ireland - including closing up the land border with Northern Ireland.

    4. Movement iof people. Anyone on this board want to work, travel, live abroad, have a holiday home, cheap travel, telecomms and so on - with use of Health care facilities at no cost while there? All possible out of the EU, but a darn sight easier within it.

    5. Immigrants take our jobs - no-one can TAKE a job unless someone offers it. So why don't employers offer jobs to our own people. Answers on a postcard, please - off-shoring is part of it, but would that be changed

    6. We can do trade deals, we are 5th biggest economy etc. Yep - but we have to sell to people to have the money to buy their stuff. What sort of deal might they want to cut with us, since we have probably irritated them with all our posturing and demands. "Sure, you can have the same deal we offer Chile (or some other smaller trade partner)".

    7. We have freedom - yep - freedom to be ignored. Consider Canada, a fine and prosperous country, member of the G8, with pleasant and talented people and abundant other resources - but largely ignored on the world stage.

    So let us vote to stay in - and work to build alliances and use our influence to move things forward.

  23. Dave 15

    More rot

    Everyone in the stay campaign is writing scare stories based on the complete cessation of any trade, any investment or even any visits between an exited UK and the rump of the EU.

    Frankly these are stories, fairy stories, nothing more. The fact is that there will be more work kept in the UK and done in the UK after the exit leading to more jobs etc.

    But I expect the stay campaign will scare a large enough contingent of gullible folk to be able to pretend they have won after polling when the votes will be 'counted' in whatever way gives Cam moron his all important win (and even if it can't be massaged such we will have a second opportunity 3 months later when suddenly we have all changed our minds).

    1. Speeednet

      Re: More rot

      In the same way that Ireland kept on voting until the EU got the result that they wanted.

  24. Speeednet

    In the event that we vote to stay within the EU, we are going to pay a hefty price for putting the bureaucrats through this mild panic. They do not forgive and they do not forget. They have a little surprise called ESM waiting for us, watch a video about this here The latest budget for the coming years is being held back until after the June 23rd stitch up, and no doubt we will be made to take in more of Merkel's folly, the moslem invasion masquerading as refugees fleeing war zones. Those that vote to stay in deserve what they get, the rest of us however do not.

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like