back to article GCHQ is having problems meeting Osborne's 2020 recruitment target

Blighty's surveillance and security agency GCHQ is facing significant challenges in meeting the government's targets for recruitment over the next four years. Last year the chancellor promised that 1,900 new recruits would be hired by the intelligence agencies by 2020 – with the lion's share expected to head to GCHQ in …

  1. eJ2095

    Last time i checked

    The money was crap

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Last time i checked

      In addition to that, last time I checked for any job from certain security level onwards people of Russian, Chinese and other "dubious" descent and dogs were not allowed either.

      1. M.Zaccone

        Re: Last time i checked

        And it is based in Cheltenham. Increase the wages. Open up some offices in more locations. Otherwise they should STFU about recruitment issues.

        1. x 7

          Re: Last time i checked

          " Open up some offices in more locations"

          they already have

          Harrogate (Menwith Hill)

          Cornwall (Bude)

          Manchester (new - location uncertain but rumoured by Googel maps to be in XXXXX - I won't mention the building) (redacted)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Last time i checked

            Bude is pretty a pricey place to

            1. Gordon 10

              Re: Last time i checked

              Surf?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Last time i checked

                the only good thing about Bude is that it's in Cornwall not Devon!

            2. Tom 7

              Re: Last time i checked - pricey bude

              Yeh - who'd want to live by the sea in Bude where you can get a 5 bedroom house for the same price as a 3 bed in Cheltenham. And I bet the beer is 3/4 the price in Bude too.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Last time i checked

            Manchester? Surely not. It's not in the middle of fucking nowhere.

      2. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: Last time i checked

        Many years ago I considered applying to the Bude "station", but was informally told that even though they'd dropped the "must be a UK-born citizen of UK citizens, also UK-born" requirement from their public recruitment advertising (due to equality legislation), in practice, there was no way in hell anyone else would ever get a look-in.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Last time i checked

      yep the money will be as shit as any other civil service IT job. And to add to that the pension (still pretty good) but has been shafted, incremental pay increases (normally for 3 first years) have gone, promotion is very difficult to get. Yep all sounding great.

      Had an email this morning from HR to say that we won't be getting our 2015 1% pay rise until June 2016 at the earliest so just a year late then! as we're meant to get them in July

      Remind me what those other public sector workers got as a pay rise...........

      Oh yeah 11%

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Last time i checked

        I had an "informal" interview there a few years ago. When we eventually got around to talking about pay I nearly fell off my chair laughing, commenting something like "You have to be fcuking joking! That's just over half of what I get from my present tight-arsed employer. Thank you for wasting half a day of my life - goodbye."

        The interviewer was most unimpressed.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Last time i checked

          add to that that you then see your political masters getting 11% when you get 1% and have your pension contributions increased more than your pay rise.

      2. Bernard M. Orwell

        Re: Last time i checked

        "yep the money will be as shit as any other civil service IT job."

        Yep, here you go....

        http://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Gchq/salaries

        "Remind me what those other public sector workers got as a pay rise...........Oh yeah 11%"

        That was just the politicians (and the high ranking civil servants they needed to bribe to shut them up about it). No actual member of the workforce (Actual IT people, clerks, nurses, council workers etc.) got that rise, or anything like it. In fact, most of the civil service just took a small pay hit with the adjustment to NI paid by public sector workers.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Last time i checked

          biggest hit has been pension contributions. I'm earning less than I was 5yr ago

    4. 0laf Silver badge

      Re: Last time i checked

      Yep.

      And even if the money was the same where do you think your young talent would rather work?

      Google, Apple, MS (even) or the government?

    5. TheOtherHobbes

      Re: Last time i checked

      >Last time i checked the money was crap

      Indeed. But that's what:

      "however pay and reward packages for staff at the intelligence agencies are under regular review to ensure that what can be offered reflects both the unique challenges the agencies face, and the high level of ability and skill required to meet them."

      means.

      If you can't translate that it into English - "we don't pay much, so we try to select people who are a bit gullible and easily flattered" - a career in the civil service is not for you.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Last time i checked

      Hello GCHQ, I know we don't always see eye to eye. I don't like your sock-puppets and complain about it, you sent a virus laden email to my ten-year old kid (apparently from CBBC, from a real BBC.co.uk IP addr) in the hope of breaking-in to my networks. Hope you enjoyed the lulz.

      But maybe this will help, after all I always continue to believe in defending the UK against cyber-armageddon etc etc.

      Consider Estonia who similarly tried to recruit loads of cyber warriors from privy-street. They couldn't get enough, even tho' Estonia is stuffed with advanced cyber kids and everything is online there.

      In the end, they just introduced a mash-up of sunday-soldiers and a bit of a draft/reserve list of experts who - whilst they wouldn't work in the Estonian Fusion centre 24/7 - were prepared to participate for the odd weekend, or even a week at peak times/special operations. Now allegedly they are fully staffed with their volunteer rota. The amazingly professional GCHQ training that you could give the UK volunteers would also be great for defending civil/industrial infrastructure. Win Win!

      (alternatively in USA they are simply re-training Navy retirees as offensive/defensive cyberwarriors as they are RIF'fed, do we have enough soon to be ex-forces to do that?)

      greetings to the team!

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Putting puzzles on social media & seeing who solves them is a little transparent too.

    They are going to monitor the winners for the rest of their lives if they refuse the job offer that's fairly obviously going to come at the end.

    Apparently if you're smart enough to solve the puzzles, you're too stupid to see the trap.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

    However they dress it up.

    I wonder if the story from a while back, about the FBI giving career talks in schools to try and stop techies having the odd toke is relevant here ? The issue being there was a shortage of toke-free techies when it came to recruitment.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

      And the sort where you have to leave big blank patches in the "experience" section of your CV.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

        The sort where you are paid £X irrespective of how good you are or what you do.

        But after 3 years you can be promoted to Intermediate Science Officer ( lower grade ( type B ( sub section III)) [class 2b] and receive a 3% pay rise, unless a future government introduces a pay freeze.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

          But after 3 years you can be promoted to Intermediate Science Officer

          But only if you pass the selection panel. And (certainly when I threw my rattle out of the pram and left) that involved three self important knob ends asking questions about their particular specialism, and anybody outside that little circle would know somewhere between little or nothing about the topic.

          But that's the great thing about the civil service - it can proudly boast of its recruitment and retention policies "we do not discriminate on the grounds of ability".

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

            as well as getting rid of our progression points they sneaked in a change to the pay on promotion that you would get (in the unlikely event of gaining merit promotion that is) You used to get a 10% pay rise, now changed to 5%. 5 fecking % not even worth getting promoted for!

      2. Dan 55 Silver badge

        Re: Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

        You mean you don't even get to work at Universal Exports any more?

        The threat of not having a work history must be a good way to retain people.

        1. billse10

          Re: Bottom line: It's a civil service job.

          "The threat of not having a work history must be a good way to retain people."

          Oh, I don't know ... I can think of quite a few MPs who would see it as a positive advantage if no-one remembered some parts of their history ...

  4. Warm Braw

    People are keen to join us in our work

    I think they suffer from the safe problem as parliament - the people that are keen to join are the least suited to the role.

    The government used to have a list of people with skills crtical to the maintenance of the post-apocalypse regime who would be taken at gunpoint (lest they prefer to be with their families in their last moments) to the nearest bunker in the event of an imminent nuclear attack. In the aftermath of the FBI-Apple battle and the extraordinary obligations of RIPA, I wonder how long it will be before people with specialist skills find themselves similarly obliged to assist our dear leaders.

    1. EvilBanana

      Re: People are keen to join us in our work

      Or they see what you're doing as profoundly unethical and wouldn't do it for any amount of money.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: People are keen to join us in our work

        > Or they see what you're doing as profoundly unethical and wouldn't do it for any amount of money.

        *Ding*.

        Despite the fact that I live (relatively) near Cheltenham, there is no way in hell I'd ever go and work for GCHQ.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: People are keen to join us in our work

      If it's like elements of the MOD and such there are some good people there, but I get the impression they are hampered by the civil servants, and the more politic playing officers. Some of them aren't exactly fans of the level of spying either, even when they work in some of those branches.

  5. EvilBanana

    I love UK...

    ...which is why I don't assist America by helping them spy on English businesses...

    1. Christian Berger

      Re: I love UK...

      Essentially it's not a civil service, but a civil disservice job. While on many civil service jobs you can go home knowing that you made the world a tiny little bit better, when working for the GCHQ you know you made it somewhat worse.

  6. John G Imrie

    Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

    Or it could be that the cyber talent is pissed of with the Spooks

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

      The police have just announced that they are planning to deal with drug violence here by:

      Introducing a zero tolerance policy (where they arrest youths of a certain skin color for walking on the cracks in the pavement) and simultaneously "earning the trust of the community" to get people to help them by turning in the naughty people.

      1. BebopWeBop

        Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

        Ahem. They do have other grounds, loitering with intent to use a level crossing, urinating in a public convenience, looking at the police in a funny way, walking in a loud shirt, and walking around with an offensive wife are all grounds for suspicion.

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

          ...... against the same man.....

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

          Mr. Kodogo need not apply.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

            "Mr. Kodogo need not apply"

            well, we cant have people coming over here from Mercer Road, taking our jobs </Brexit>

        3. Mark 85

          Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

          Is it still an offense to carry a camera and occasionally point it at something?

          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

            Re: Spook feel bite of general lack of cyber talent in UK – sources

            Only in a special secret security area - such as the whole of London or anywhere near a policeman or politician.

            It may be an offense to inquire about the location of special secret security areas.

  7. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Ethics

    I don't think I could bring myself to work for GCHQ with their current Big Brother "Everyone is a terrorist or paedophile" mentality.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Ethics

      Everyone who liked this comment is now on a watchlist

      1. x 7

        Re: Ethics

        "Everyone who liked this comment is now on a watchlist"

        everyone who posts on this forum is already on a watchlist

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ethics

          everyone who posts on this forum is already on a watchlist

          You think GCHQ have the technical ability to find and read the Reg forums? I've no doubt they're scraping and storing the content along with the rest of the petabytes added to the web each day, but actually read, understand, adapt? No way.

          Obviously if you've been ordering a lot of bleach, nails and fertiliser from Amazon then they'll pick you out and follow all you do including any Reg posts you make, and then present them as evidence in your court case: "M'lud, when the defendant posted "GCC beats MS VC, but LLVM is a dog", this was a code that meant his operatives should kill the prime minister."

          1. Someone_Somewhere

            Re: Ethics

            > ordering a lot of bleach, nails and fertiliser

            If you weren't on a bot-autogenerated watchlist before, you certainly will be now.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Ethics

            You think GCHQ have the technical ability to find and read the Reg forums?

            Er... you might notice TheReg website is entirely unencrypted, even though they've been repeatedly asked to provide HTTPS. Using HTTPS on TheReg bounces you back to the unencrypted form.

            Do you think that's accidental?

            1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

              Re: Ethics

              Obviously, since only terrorists use encryption, non-encrypted sites can't be terrorists and so http is the perfect way of el'reg going under GCHQ's radar

              How else to keep the plans for the post-pub nosh fuelled intercontinental ballistic bofh secret ?

            2. Someone_Somewhere

              Re: Do you think that's accidental?

              <tinfoil> Or is el Reg just one big honeypot? </tinfoil>

          3. Omgwtfbbqtime
            Flame

            Re: Ethics

            Nah - tried something like that a few years ago -

            Iron oxide, aluminium powder and magnesium ribbon all ordered in the space of 5 mins through ebay.

            No knock on the door - other than the postie - the iron oxide jiffy wouldnt fit therough the letterbox.

            Luckily the post time meant I sobered up before removing the tree stump next to the fence with the thermite....

            1. Tom 7

              Re: Ethics - thermite

              I remember a relative in the US removing a concrete doorstep with dynamite obtained easily from a local hardware store when I was over there as a kid. From some shit I've been watching on TV it doesnt seem hard to get hold of the stuff there nowadays.

        2. Alexander J. Martin
          Joke

          Re: Ethics

          You may notice that all mentions of the El Reg warrant canary have been removed from the web.

          1. Mark 85
            Black Helicopters

            Re: Ethics

            I didn't think El Reg had a warrant canary. Or if they did, it was for about a day or so.

        3. Captain DaFt

          Re: Ethics

          "everyone who posts on this forum is already on a watchlist"

          Only one!?

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Ethics

          '..everyone who posts on this forum is already on a watchlist'

          Hah, some of us were being watched long before the existence of El Reg..

          An ex-colleague was a member of the SDS and had, as he put it, quite an extensive 'history' with the USian alphabet soup agencies..

          In my case, I suppose out of habit, just in case, they're still maintaining a 'listening watch' on me (family and other connections being what they are, and all that..)

          With the tinfoil hat on, It could explain why the firewall on my phone crashed & burned yesterday at 16:30..

          1. energystar

            Re: Ethics

            "...It could explain why the firewall on my phone crashed & burned yesterday at 16:30."

            Well, fire do have silly effects on phones.

        5. h4rm0ny

          Re: Ethics

          >>"everyone who posts on this forum is already on a watchlist"

          Good. When everyone is on a watchlist, a watchlist is meaningless.

      2. Someone_Somewhere

        Re: Ethics

        Everyone who posts anything with the word 'watchlist' in it is on a watchlist.

    2. Valeyard

      Re: Ethics

      precisely. Who would want to join a terrorist organisation who works tirelessly against the welfare of the UK?

      jihadis and cybersecurity people who weren't good enough for the private sector

      1. KeithR

        Re: Ethics

        "cybersecurity people who weren't good enough for the private sector"

        You were doing SO well until you wrote that shite I've italicised.

        Some of us Public Sector boys could run rings round most Private Sector skivers.

        1. CrazyOldCatMan Silver badge

          Re: Ethics

          > Some of us Public Sector boys could run rings round most Private Sector skivers.

          Indeed. I've been in both and my current Public Sector job is with some pretty sharp people. Plus, I like working for an organisation that's actually trying to do something useful rather than just trying to enrich a few already-rich people and banks..

          1. Someone_Somewhere

            Re: Ethics

            > a few already-rich people and banks..

            What, like your employers' employers you mean?

          2. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

            Re: Ethics @CrazyOldCatMan

            Indeed. I've been in both and my current Public Sector job is with some pretty sharp people. Plus, I like working for an organisation that's actually trying to do something useful rather than just trying to enrich a few already-rich people and banks.. .... CrazyOldCatMan

            Do you not realise, CrazyOldCatMan, the Public Sector job is sub-primarily to enrich a few already-rich people and banks. And if SIS/GCHQ do not realise that, then is that particular and peculiar Intelligence Community fundamentally lacking in that which is required to provide, monitor and mentor advanced creative commanding control systems leadership via remote virtually anonymous and practically autonomous leverage ....... and they will always be playing second fiddle to events which they are reacting to/stories which they have discovered and which may, or may not, be activated/self-actualising.

            Deny that words create, command and control and collapse worlds and be as a paying spectator in the Great Game and Great Games which abound and surround you.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Ethics

            Indeed. I've been in both and my current Public Sector job is with some pretty sharp people. Plus, I like working for an organisation that's actually trying to do something useful rather than just trying to enrich a few already-rich people and banks..

            There are good people in the public sector and good people in the private sector. Given that there are people in both, this seems like a of an obvious thing to say.

            However, the crucial point is if you are the very best at your skill area in the public sector you will always earn less than you could in the private sector. This means that the percentages are skewed against the public sector. Not only do they need good people but they need good people willing and able to live on less money.

            One thing I dont agree with though is "trying to enrich a few already-rich people and banks." This appears to be the fundamental role of the current public sector.

    3. Someone_Somewhere

      Heads Up

      (Re: '..everyone who posts on this forum is already on a watchlist)

      (Re: Ethics)

      My WorldIP* has started reporting that DuckDuckGo is on an internal network - reverse DNS of ec2-54-229-105-92.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.

      So much for their not tracking us: what /they/ do is irrelevant if they're pumping everything through Amazon anyway - even if there are no analytics used, the AWS traffic is putting all your eggs in Amazon's basket poultry products supply chain (which /will/ be monitored, one way or another).

      And recently, I've started seeing my first ever alerts about DNS cache poisoning attacks (using 8.8.8.8, 8.8.4.4 and 4.2.2.1 - 4.2.2.6 over my normal 192.168.0.1 gateway/ISP DNS server addys)

      /sigh/

      Not saying which service I'm gonna be using now because I don't wanna give the bastards a break, but there /is/ still at least one search engine out there using a verifiable DNS - I suggest people look for it/a similarly verifiable one.

      * https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/worldip/?src=search

      1. x 7

        Re: Heads Up

        "And recently, I've started seeing my first ever alerts about DNS cache poisoning attacks (using 8.8.8.8, 8.8.4.4 and 4.2.2.1 - 4.2.2.6 over my normal 192.168.0.1 gateway/ISP DNS server addys)"

        whats giving you the alerts?

        1. Someone_Somewhere

          Re: Heads Up

          > whats giving you the alerts? <

          WorldIP.

          I've added a number of other DNS services to its list, which should help a /little/ bit, but its still disconcerting to see that either Google or Tier 3 is being subverted.*

          Or, possibly, my own ISP - in which case I'm hosed /whatever/ I do!

          1. Someone_Somewhere

            Re: Heads Up

            Also got an 'unknown SSL error 443' when connecting to the user-supplied apps portal for my OS update service two days ago - first time ever I've seen /that/ for any OS I've used.

            Things are looky a trifle suspicious of late

    4. Hans 1

      Re: Ethics

      >I don't think I could bring myself to work for GCHQ with their current Big Brother "Everyone is a terrorist or paedophile" mentality.

      GCHQ is not about paedophiles, they do not care about "ordinary crime", they want to get intel on everybody, especially thought-terrorists ... people thinking 2 and 2 make 4 when, it's a fact, we all know 2 and 2 make 5.

      1. Someone_Somewhere

        Re: people thinking 2 and 2 make 4 (Re: Ethics)

        https://hateandanger.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/looks-like-youve-had-a-bit-too-much-to-think-support-your-local-thought-police-dont-speak-out-or-question-closed-minds-stop-thought-crimes.jpg

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Obvious

    What, noone wants to work for the baddies?

    1. Tom 38

      Re: Obvious

      Where I work (private sector, not security), we have display screens showing us motivational slides, news, internal job adverts etc all around the office. After Star Wars 7 came out, they put up a slide asking for us to deliver to HR talented people we knew at other companies, and they chose to have a picture of Darth Vader reprising the famous "Kitchener WANTS YOU" recruiting poster.

      It's like ".... so that means we're the Empire, right?"

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Obvious

        "motivational slides,"

        Don't you mean "demotivational". That's the effect of the insult-to-intelligence content normal in that sort of crap.

        1. Someone_Somewhere

          Re: "demotivational"

          http://despair.com/collections/demotivators/products/motivation

        2. Teiwaz

          Re: Obvious Motivational

          First place I worked, motivational posters were posited, most people were all for it, until we actually got them and they were put up. People got tired of them inside the first day.

          They sound like a great idea in theory, but in practice, totally annoying and tiring to constantly look at.

          1. Chris King

            Re: Obvious Motivational

            "They sound like a great idea in theory, but in practice, totally annoying and tiring to constantly look at".

            Then you discover the art of demotivational posters and start making your own.

  9. JimmyPage
    Boffin

    And another thing ...

    presumably an increase of 1,900 skilled workers needs a proportionate increase in the number of cusodiet custodes ? (Or is that custodiem custodias ?|)

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: And another thing ...

      I think that is one of the recruitment issues.

      Many of the cyber-security graduates they interview aren't able to conjugate latin verbs sufficiently to pass the civil service entrance exam.

      1. werdsmith Silver badge

        Re: And another thing ...

        So they get declined.......

        Et opus meum et tunicam

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Shirley they should offshore it to cheap unskilled labour - like everything else?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Of course they should, and stop calling me Shirley!

  11. x 7

    "Shirley they should offshore it to cheap unskilled labour"

    they already have - Menwith Hill is mainly staffed by Americans

  12. herman Silver badge

    Well, they can always outsource their IT work to India.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @herman

      I'm sure the Chinese would be able to able to do it too

  13. SolidSquid

    Have to wonder whether the Snowden releases have impacted their recruiting and to what extent. We know that the NSA and FBI at least ran into issues with people not wanting to take jobs with them because of some of what was revealed

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you want to work for a morally questionable company which exploits the country to further it's own goals then work for a bank, at least they will pay you well.

    1. Gordon 10

      Plus you get to sleep soundly at night.

      1. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

        Don't count on it.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You would think they would pay you well but it's not a given. I once worked for a (well the) very questionable one and the pay was crap for the first six years with always the promise of good money around the corner. It transpired that they exploited their infrastructure more than the country. And you couldn't sleep too well at nights either thanks to often being on call (unpaid).

      1. energystar

        On Call HAS to be always paid...

        On the double or triple, plus expenses [that include child care]. Never tire your people. Mistakes are a lot more expensive.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Not one of these 5-eyed spook cunts...

      Ever admits that the spying apparatus is used for economic espionage (the magic number of 200m has been mentioned for US corporations competing for contracts), but who knows what the real figure is!!! Maybe zero as long as you have 'the right' Corporate pals to call up 'the right' buddies in congress, who put a call into back-channels to get strategic info from NSA Inc....

      Not one has admitted to routinely intercepting UN / NATO / Diplomatic communications to spy on world leaders either. This is simply never discussed. And how about TPP / TTIP / TISA tracking and monitoring? Shut up serfs and swallow the lies that spying exists to catch T's and P's....

      Meanwhile in interviews, the mass media never challenges Spooks about these abuses. It feels empty to say power corrupts. Power doesn't corrupt, power is corruption. Welcome to Panama pricks! This is the true self-preservation society, but without the charm of the Italian-Job....

      1. Sir Alien

        Re: Not one of these 5-eyed spook cunts...

        Power != corruption.

        If I had the ability to annihilate this blue ball you call home but decided not to do it.

        Am I corrupt? Obviously not.

        Although it is only movies, the term "with great power comes great responsibility" does really apply to many things. I may have the ability to destroy this planet but choose not to do it, thus making me responsible by not abusing my ability.

        The problem here is that those with great power seem to think of only two things. More money and more power. Whether you believe it or not, most spy agencies do industrial espionage. It's part of the job. They simply need hide the fact that they are doing it really well.

        My "uber sekret weaponz" is hiding behind Saturn

        - S.A

        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Not one of these 5-eyed spook cunts...

          If Britain's spy agencies are doing industrial espionage - they are either doing it very badly, or keeping the results secret from British industry.

          1. Hans 1
            Facepalm

            Re: Not one of these 5-eyed spook cunts...

            >If Britain's spy agencies are doing industrial espionage - they are either doing it very badly, or keeping the results secret from British industry.

            They do industrial espionage for the US only, even if British jobs are at stake, their loyalty goes to [Money-]Washing-town.

          2. Tom 7

            Re: Not one of these 5-eyed spook cunts...

            "keeping the results secret from British industry." you dick they're the ones they're spying on!

      2. energystar

        Intelligence doing Industrial Dirty Work?

        Too much tin foil. Industry profiting from Industry Secrecy usually have their own 'contractors'. Its a question of wrongdoers 'confidence'. It is a 'private club' shared 'morale' issue. It is a 'cosa nostra' and not 'tua', certainly.

  15. Buzzword

    Mossad do it right

    Get them in young, train them up as part of the army, then do your best to keep them onboard for grown-up work. The Israeli example proves it's perfectly feasible.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Mossad do it right

      Only assuming you want a Mossad. Personally I'd rather GCHQ stuck to being a sleepy civil service bureaucracy.

    2. energystar

      If enrollment is profiling...

      Then they're not getting the best, by far. Citizens well rooted in the Country, that's all.

    3. Hans 1
      Happy

      Re: Mossad do it right

      Mossad only need young recruits because they are easier to brainwash. It is true, though, that they have eager fighters, among the most eager fighters on the planet (if not the most eager), they have good & bad so completely mixed up the SS would have been jealous.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Trollface

    Then again...

    TBH when China is funding, designing and building our nuclear reactors, what's the point of infosec?

    1. TheOtherHobbes

      Re: Then again...

      Not just that - how many cheap Chinese IP cameras and routers have backdoors lurking in the firmware?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Then again...

        I heard 5 rolled out snazzy new desk phones, then found there were Chinese sourced ICs inside and had to memo staff not to use the phones except for idle chit-chat

        1. x 7

          Re: Then again...

          " then found there were Chinese sourced ICs inside"

          try finding a phone that doesn't have chinese chips inside

          1. werdsmith Silver badge

            Re: Then again...

            try finding a phone that doesn't have chinese chips inside

            James May reassembled one on Tuesday.

            1. x 7

              Re: Then again...

              "James May reassembled one on Tuesday."

              a little bit too analog for modern tastes methinks

  17. nematoad Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Well said!

    "Specific pay and reward details cannot be disclosed for national security reasons,"

    That's a brilliant way of handling things. Just smother any unpleasant facts with the blanket of "national security". No-one will notice.

    Could it be that they have something to hide?

    Like crap pay and prospects.

    PR?

    They might know how to spell it, but don't ask, it's probably a secret.

    1. Vic

      Re: Well said!

      "Specific pay and reward details cannot be disclosed for national security reasons,"

      That's a brilliant way of handling things.

      Especially when you consider that specific pay and reward details are on their website...

      The vacancies I've looked at before don't exactly fill me with the deire to apply.

      Vic.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Twice applied and twice turned down. They are getting on average 35 applicants a day. Their HR dept is overwhelmed that they have had to recruit temps in. The doughnut according to a senior manager there is full to capacity. They have opened a new site in Manchester which just seems to be filled with hackers and script kiddies. They only seem interested in graduates who they can pay £25k to programme.

    Knowing that they only stay on to gain experience then jump ship and get paid x4 the amount at somewhere like Google, Microsoft et al. Even though you can't put it in so many words on your CV that you have worked there.

    To take someone on at GCHQ costs about £10K including all the clearances.

    Oh and then there is the drugs test they conduct which usually consists of a 'hair sample' (not pubic) which also means they have a sample of your DNA on file.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Oh and then there is the drugs test they conduct which usually consists of a 'hair sample' (not pubic) which also means they have a sample of your DNA on file.

      Not necessarily, a straight hair cutting is dodgy for accurate DNA profiling even with modern techniques, although it will reveal a history of drug use. Moral - go hairless :-)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Only 25K?

      Good grief, S***o pay more than that!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "They only seem interested in graduates who they can pay £25k to programme."

      Aldi apparently pay graduate trainees over £40k, which may tell you something.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

    4. energystar

      "...seems to be filled with hackers and script kiddies."

      You must be 'kidding' us. Do they prefer a 5d/w kid than a 2d/w senior?

      1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

        "...seems to be filled with hackers and script kiddies." is a recipe for disasters

        Howdy, energystar,

        Crack Coders and Script Genii are more than just an opportunity and solution for sub-prime Key Intelligence Community Supply Chains ….. Spooky Intellectually Challenged Dark Web Networks, which may or may not be GCHQ type systems default ……. and that is a global vulnerability available for exploit and expansion and monetisation and export?

        Yes, such sure is.

  19. BurnT'offering

    The difficulty with recruiting spies

    is knowing whether you have succeeded

  20. NG87

    ha, maybe the government should re-evaluate pay.... , there are people that have the skills GCHQ needs but these people also know their value which is something the government fails to address . Around this time last year i remember looking at the careers page for one of the Intel agencies in London , they were looking for essentially a pretty senior pen-tester/red team member. The salary offered was in the range of 35K which is absolutely crap. Someone with the skillet they wanted could easily get 60K in the private sector so why on earth would they ever go to work for the government?

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      The security services have always relied on people willing to give up the money to do the job for love of country.

      Admittedly the country in question was normally the USSR - but you can't have eveything

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. BurnT'offering

          Re: The civil service will eat you alive - it just takes a few decades to digest you.

          Yes, I can see why the concept of public service would hold little appeal for you.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Admittedly the country in question was normally the USSR

        Philby was on the fringes of the British upper classes. Despite which and despite working for SIS, he preferred to be a double agent for the USSR, and was especially proud that he had spied on the Americans for the USSR but also passed on the information to SIS.

        I think that says quite a lot about the British establishment, and the events of the last week show that when it comes to "love of country" the Establishment still knows all about it, and where its country can stick it.

        1. werdsmith Silver badge

          Re: Admittedly the country in question was normally the USSR

          Time to learn German and move to dog-eating Switzerland because my 200Mb/s Virgin cable service is too slow to read the Register.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Do they need NSA approval?

    I recall Jacob Appelbaum describing the attempt of GCHQ to recruit him. He mentioned (paraphrasing) that they view themselves as the deciders, but they also mentioned that he shouldn't worry because all their hires are cleared through NSA (Jacobs an American).

    I can't find it quickly again (long videos). It was in either this video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNsePZj_Yks

    Or this one (a must watch*):

    http://boingboing.net/2013/12/31/jacob-appelbaums-must-watch.html

    But that is an issue, because its in the interests of the NSA to spy on its friends and ensure they stay on USA message. GCHQ's duty is to protect UK from such surveillance. So there's a conflict of interests there. And it would mean NSA would get to reject people who might view their surveillance activities as detrimental to the UK.

    So is that the case, does NSA vet GCHQ hires? Because that's an issue of UK security!

    * Note (off this topic) the 15 years part at 18:44 in this video, this is a video from 2013, 15 years is 1998. This surveillance began before 911 before the Patriot act, they were drag netting content and metadata.

    1. Chris G

      Re: Do they need NSA approval?

      It was the late 90s when it was reaffirmed that the NSA could only monitor offshore, so they and GCHQ came up with the deal to spy for each other.

      However Echelon was well established anyway and the Five Eyes had been working together since the war and sharing most things.

  22. Omar Smith
    Joke

    GCHQ is having problems meeting recruitment targets.

    GCHQ is having problems meeting recruitment targets because no one wants to work for a bunch of crypto fascists.

    1. MonkeyCee

      Re: GCHQ is having problems meeting recruitment targets.

      "GCHQ is having problems meeting recruitment targets because no one wants to work for a third rate bunch of crypto fascists."

      FTFY

      GCHQ can't offer the best money or best opportunities out of the intelligence agencies, let alone private sector.

      A US based "get out of jail free" card is probably of more use than a UK one.

      One presumes also that a highly competent engineer with a deep love of their country would be better off serving the intelligence agencies whilst working at Slurpygooglebook.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: GCHQ is having problems meeting recruitment targets.

      I hear Rimmer applied seventeen times.

  23. Someone_Somewhere

    Surely

    the kind of person who has the desired talent/skills is already aware that they can make a much better living as one of the very people the TLAs would like them to track down.

    Or perhaps they're smart enough to know that they'll get easier access to the kind of info/intel that will make them rich while they play-act being underappreciated/underpaid TLA drones.

    Wheels within wheels within wheels, perhaps?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Surely

      "Wheels within wheels within wheels, perhaps?"

      You may remember they were experimenting with keeping staff in suitcases while off duty to ensure they didn't work for anyone else, but there was a technical problem.

      Yes, tasteless remark, but no apologies.

  24. jasper pepper

    Usual bollox spouted by management, it was ever so....

    Lack of people with the skills they seek? No.

    Inadequate salaries offered to those they seek? Yes.

  25. Bob Rocket

    'Why shouldn't I work for GCHQ ?'

    'That's a tough one, but I'll take a shot.'

  26. Robert Grant

    “...a lack of available talent in some specialist fields..."

    Translation: plenty of mediocre managers and architects lining up for easy cash, but no-one to do any of the actual work?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: “...a lack of available talent in some specialist fields..."

      I did consider applying for the Administrative Civil Service when I left U but was warned "the Civil Service believes scientists should be on tap, not on top."

  27. pnony
    Coat

    "Specific pay and reward details cannot be disclosed for national security reasons,"

    That rather reminds me of the standard retort to manglement demands to not disclose one's salary: "Don't worry, I'm just as embarrassed about it as you are."

  28. energystar

    Not in Intelligence but yes on Public Service.

    Doing it won't make you rich -not even financially 'stable'-. Neither build you 'a career'. Here you'll find the same b&$#&*%& you'll find everywhere. And the 'serviceable' 'fast-trackers' also [the most dangerous kind of Service Men]. And the 'self-serving' also.

    But at no other job you'll have a better chance to do the right thing, for the right reason. And no, nobody will force you to do the wrong thing -I assure you-. And yes, I have a my tin foil hat well placed, also.

    And no, I you don't come and help, nobody will.

    You can throw me the rocks now.

  29. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap is an Horrendously Expensive Mistake to Fail to Cover Up

    And GCHQ still have an abiding elephant in the room problem which guarantees they will always be chasing and searching for star quality talent rather than showcasing and reaping the benefits from its engagement ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams

    But at no other job you'll have a better chance to do the right thing, for the right reason. And no, nobody will force you to do the wrong thing -I assure you-. And yes, I have a my tin foil hat well placed, also. .... energystar

    Doing the right thing is always risky, energystar, whenever so many are wedded to the wrong things.

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Every Silver Cloud has a Stormy CHAOS* Lining

      And the farcical pantomimes and dark webbed tragic comedies of errors and missteps continue .... ad infinitum/nauseam ....... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/09/spies-set-to-start-vetting-chilcot-inquiry-report-next-prompting/

      * Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems

      You do realise that somebody/something makes all of this up, and Multi Functional Media and ICT trail and trial it for mass consumption and perception management. IT's a Great IntelAIgents Game and although Essentially in the Same Format as the Old Phormer Great Game, Fundamentally Entirely Different and Better with AI Betas in Virtual Machine Command and Control of Systems and SCADA Executive Office Administrations.

      Welcome ..... to Virtually Real Worlds with Open Source Marketing Spaces for Controlling Places.

      1. Someone_Somewhere

        Re: Every Silver Cloud has a Stormy CHAOS* Lining

        If only it were funny!

        http://despair.com/products/pessimism

      2. energystar

        Those little note snippets on Sundays News. The more telling...

        Some years ago. A new generation of US diplomatics at the Vatican... Scandalized about the generalized lack of digital 'assistants'. Work to do. The classic way. Oh God! [No THAT God inside Saint Peter, of course].

        No need to be an insider, to perceive intention.

        And no, it's not Matrix [Is this just youth, or plain arrogance?]. You know people feel and hates this ambiance.

        Perception Management... What are you teaching at those 'elite' centers?

      3. Omar Smith

        Re: Every Silver Cloud has a Stormy CHAOS* Lining

        You're your own one man cult.

        1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

          Re: "You're your own one man cult." ....... Omar Smith

          Hi, Omar,

          You might like this ....... https://youtu.be/J5pFf27OtPM

          There's a lot going on out there here and in cyberspaces, which are virtually real places and haunting and daunting command and control centres which do not suffer fools' ways and means and crazy memes ....... and to battle to oppose and/or depose the very best of them is to tilt at windmills and prove yourself mad as a hatter and totally unfit for Future Greater IntelAIgent Games purpose.

    2. energystar
      IT Angle

      No expectatives for Cover Up.

      You are right on comment, amanfromMars1, but so do I. Those chances don't even exist within for profit Corporations.

  30. Trollslayer
    Thumb Down

    Crap place, crap money, crap management

    I had an interview there years ago, years of pay freeze and rubbish pension.

    HR were like scared rabbits and the electric wheelchairs they had sat in a corner with dead batteries and flat tyres, they had been like that for God knows how long. I reported it and was ignored.

    Then all the internal politics and racism...

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Crap place, crap money, crap management

      Think that's bad? Take a look at the Quim-eti-Queue that RSRE has become

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Crap place, crap money, crap management

        Well at least the top echelon of RSRE got to be millionaires when they sold it to the Yanks

        Auditors condemn rushed MoD sale that turned civil servants into multimillionaires

        http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/nov/21/military.immigrationpolicy

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    NSA hits back at poor recruitment rumors

    GCHQ hits back after claims it won’t meet recruitment targets

    Mon, 11 Apr 2016

    Intelligence agency Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) has refuted claims it is having difficulty hitting its target of 1,900 new recruits by 2020.

    News website The Register, quoting independent sources close to GCHQ, [Mrs Goggins?] reported the intelligence agency is struggling to land the best candidates for roles, with one source claiming they simply didn't know where new talent was going to come from.

    But a GCHQ spokesperson said in a statement the agency has a “very healthy” recruitment pipeline, with a “large number” of talented applicants for available vacancies.

    However, the spokesperson added the agency was not resting on its laurels and did acknowledge that the graduate jobs market is becoming increasingly competitive.

    GCHQ attributes this to the private sector’s ability to offer higher pay, and a lack of available talent in some specialist fields.

    In order to tackle this problem, the spokesperson said GCHQ is working with universities and training providers to ensure recruits are equipped to work at the agency.

    GCHQ is also increasing pre-graduate recruitment, via its higher apprenticeship schemes, undergraduate placements and internships.

    allegedly, according to

    http://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2016/04/gchq-hits-back-after-claims-it-wont-meet-recruitment-targets/

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