Microsoft's equality and diversity: Skimpy schoolgirls dancing for nerds at an Xbox party Microsoft's attempts to brand itself as a modern inclusive company were seriously derailed last night. The Xbox giant hired dancers in skimpy schoolgirl outfits for its party at the Games Developers Conference in San Francisco. Someone sent me photos and and an OH: "We've got the best spot in the house, don't we?" (Deleted …
We are surrounded by ways to sell us stuff using sexual hints. Marketing has been knowing it very well for ages. And many women earns lots of money using their bodies to sell stuff. What about the whole fashion industry?
Time to change? Yes. But good luck with it...
@"David Webb" who posted:
"@Big John - I was going to try and list all the possible different genders that are available, other than Male/Female. I then checked how many keystrokes on average there is MTBF and yeah, screw it."
As a transphasic 'female of center' masculinist transient asexual species-neutral polyphobe, I resent your attempt to simplify the reality of the meta universes regarding alternate realities of esoteric hypertrophic sexuality.
23 "genders"
Gender is used as a euphemism for sex. The word "sex" to indicate male and female is apparently far too offensive for polite use. Gender is also used to classify words. "His" is masculine, "hers" is feminine and "its" is neuter for example. Of course sex is determined by the possession (or not) of the Y chromosome, both sexes (sorry for the bluntness there) possessing X chromosomes. At best if we use gender to determine type of sex (and this is using gender in its earliest meaning), then we have feminine, masculine and neuter males; ditto for females. I count six all up. Twenty three? Somebody's being creative.
The use of euphemism instead of direct speech because you are too embarrassed to say what you actually mean has something of a history.
For example, death has many euphemisms as Monty Python amply illustrated in my youth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218
It is popularly supposed among feminists that removing gender-specific terms from the English will result in a more caring and dare I say egalitarian society. Instead of:
"Look at that poor woman; she has dropped her handbag!"
one would say:
"Look at that poor thing; it's dropped its handbag!"
Colour me dubious.
"Gender is used as a euphemism for sex. The word "sex" to indicate male and female is apparently far too offensive for polite use. Gender is also used to classify words. "His" is masculine, "hers" is feminine and "its" is neuter for example. Of course sex is determined by the possession (or not) of the Y chromosome, both sexes (sorry for the bluntness there) possessing X chromosomes. At best if we use gender to determine type of sex (and this is using gender in its earliest meaning), then we have feminine, masculine and neuter males; ditto for females. I count six all up. Twenty three? Somebody's being creative."
Yeah, you're wrong. Just using a genotypic definition of sex, there are way more than six sexes:
XX, XY (standard ones), XO, XXX, XXXX, XXXXX, XYY. XXY, XXXY, XXXXY, XXYY,
and probably some others. (All of the ones above exist in people and are not fatal.) Moreover, there are intersex conditions like CAH just to muddy the waters.
In conclusion, it's a common misconception that genetics is a nice and clean system with male and female. While that's true for 99% of the population, that leaves 70 million people in the world who are one of the many other possible sexes. Part of our 'obsession' with political correctness in the last few decades is that we no longer pretend that if you represent a group of less than around half of the population then you don't matter and can be ignored or silenced.
And I haven't even considered gender at all...
It may have escaped your attention, but all those chromosome combinations contain an X chromosome as I stated. Males are defined by the possession of a Y chromosome. Conversely possession of only X chromosomes defines the organism as female. I presume your XO is meant to distinguish Turner Syndrome females who possess but one X, rather than 10 year old brandy. While there are many combinations of X and Y chromosomes, there are still only two sexes as defined. At least that was the case when the Git studied genetics at university in 1969 and philosophy of biology in 2005. For there to be more than two sexes, there would have to be more than two sex chromosomes. I believe that is the case in some non-human organisms.
Examples:
Possession of XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) are males.
Possession of XXX (Trisomy X) are females.
Please note that I did not state that there were six sexes. My conclusion was that there could only be six euphemisms for sex based on the definitions of sex and gender in the English language.
While as you state I am "Just using a genotypic definition of sex" it's a workable one in that it determines who can, or cannot bear offspring. While a friend of mine in IT identifies as female, "she" is the biological father of two children and definitely not the mother. No amount of psychobabble can achieve that.
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So girls don't like to see other girls making good money dancing sexily?
If you see the line ups for auditions for such things, there is no shortage of applicants and a lot of disappointment amongst those who don't get chosen.
Girls don't need a PhD to be a sexy dancer, although I did meet one who was a student doctor.
You fail to see the difference between something done on private time and something on an official company event. And intended as a PR event to boot.
No censorship or prude intent on my end. It's just not good biz practice. And it is a tad obnoxious to women employees and attendees. Or would male dancers be welcomed by you and the lads?
Do it on private time, with like minded folk if that's your thing. I ain't gonna throw stones.
Man. Who has been to strip clubs before, on his own decision, with friends.
Is that so difficult to understand, that a woman might feel uncomfortable going to a strip club? Especially with men she doesn't know? Or her colleagues.
Like I said, flip it around. You go to a vendor event and they take you all out to see the Chippendales. Now, imagine doing that as a young guy with a bunch of older-than-you'd-prefer women. Just so that the sexual tension might not be totally appreciated on your end. Lovely time, right?
If you chose to go see male dancers with your significant other, she might find ways to show her appreciation later on. Or if you like male dancers yourself. Who knows? Very different situation.
MS fucked up*. End of story. Guy who did this doesn't deserve to get fired, but learning from other folks' mistakes is smarter than making them yourself. And making people uncomfortable is not cool, PR or no PR, feminists or no feminists.
p.s. if this was a logging company event or an oil worker convention, this might be different. It wasn't.
Is it hard to believe that women might not have a problem with this or going to strip clubs either? The whole flipping around argument works both ways, what this comes down too is someone didn't agree with it, moaned about it and now the majority of folk who didn't give a shit now get lumped as being sexist.
If the whole world cared a little less and stopped getting so damn offended by things then it would be a much better place to live
Some women might not, but it's pretty understandable why others of us don't like this. Turning a tech event into a strip club is not welcoming to women. Strip clubs are about sex and titillation. Not wanting to be forced into such a setting with a group of strange men you don't know and wouldn't necessarily want to be around in a sexual context anyway, that's not good. A few moments thought from a woman's perspective on this should make the reasoning clear as fairly supportable.
It's not just the females who find this uncomfortable. As a mid-30s straight male, nothing would make me more uncomfortable than a young girl dancing half naked in front of me while surrounded by my peers.
Such a poorly judged hire, in my eyes whoever arranged the "entertainment" should be fired as they lack common sense.
As a mid-50s straight male, nothing would make me more comfortable than a young girl dancing totally naked in front of me while surrounded by my peers.
Of course I'd need a dose of sildenafil first to get the maximum value from the performance. And I'd have to stay off the booze for the night.
<snip>
"Of course I'd need a dose of sildenafil first to get the maximum value from the performance. And I'd have to stay off the booze for the night."
Sildenafil? Try Viagra, it will make you like James Bond.
Not necessarily Daniel Craig but it will certainly make you Roger Moore.
"As a mid-50s straight male, nothing would make me more comfortable than a young girl dancing totally naked in front of me"
Dressed as a school-girl? Really? Well, go ahead and take a picture of the dancer then, but bear in mind that the current pornography laws say that if she "appears under 18" then you have "made illegal images of a minor".
I don't think anyone should be comfortable that we can be arrested and on the offenders register for even thinking of enjoying such things....
"Dressed as a school-girl? Really? Well, go ahead and take a picture of the dancer then, but bear in mind that the current pornography laws say that if she "appears under 18" then you have "made illegal images of a minor".
I don't think anyone should be comfortable that we can be arrested and on the offenders register for even thinking of enjoying such things...."
So you're saying taking picture of her naked is OK, but taking pictures of her dressed in school uniform but NOT showing breasts / vagina is illegal? Do you want to think that one through again?
Exactly !!! Look at women's clothing and perfume advertising?. Does it not exploit sex?
The issue here is the neo-fascists of the ultra-right wing "third wave feminists" (who are not feminists at all).
These ultra-right wing feminists (and other members of the ultra-right wing "regressive left") are bent upon enforcing their interpretations of what is tolerable and what is acceptable.
And they totally ignore the fact that they're words are "triggering" those of us who've lived through WWII and the Cold War.
They're totally ignoring the fact that -- by their own standards -- they are re-traumatizing those who suffered at the hand of conformist totalitarians, after they were imprisoned in concentration camps in Europe and in Asia.
@WatAWorld; You're right. Those ultra-right wing leftist commie strawwoman feminist Nazi Liberal Democrat scum and their evil ways!
I once saw a docu-drama that predicted how ultra-right wing feminists would have taken over Britain by 2012.
Chilled me to the bone how much they got right, even down to Diana Dors ordering us about.
Er, I mean.... I for one welcome our sexy, sexy Nazi-feminist overlords. (^_^)
(P**s-taking aside, one might argue that there's a time and place for this sort of thing, but IMHO it shouldn't be at a bleeding Microsoft corporate event, at least not if they're maintaining any pretence that the company is anything other than a sausage fest of poorly-socialised twentysomething geek stereotypes).
If I go to a lingerie convention I expect to get an eye full of a gyrating, scantily clad twenty-something. At a tech convention? Not so much.
Might have gone to a few more tech conventions and a few less lingerie conventions had I known about this.
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"Don't get me started on Daddy Pig"
I'm trying really hard to get my kids not to grow up to be like Peppa. I go to huge efforts not to order boxes of reinforced concrete or take my kids to work to show them a whiteboard with the method of how to solve quadratic equations written on it. I even made sure I didn't design a house for Mr Wolf to live next door.
I draw the line at not teaching them to jump in muddy puddles though.
Remind me again what's wrong with Daddy Pig, apart from him being a wuss on roller coasters?
It's definitely a generational and cultural thing.
As an ex-pat Brit in Canada, I still find it quite embarrassing going to some pubs to be served by overtly sexual waitresses with very short skirts and exposed cleavage. These places are not Hooters, but regular, run-of-the-mill bars.
I'm a libertarian and I think people should dress however they see fit. However, if your aim is to attract customers and those customers are turned off by your dress, you should probably do something about it.
I guess I'm probably not a typical customer though.
Which is why my kit is Linux based. Got fed up with their antics, crappy support, and other assorted attempts to excessively separate me and my money. With Linux, I know what support the distro will provide (some actually have paid, professional support) and I have never yet found a situation where I needed to actually spend money for support, the information needed is usually on the official distro support pages in full gory detail.
"As an ex-pat Brit in Canada, I still find it quite embarrassing"
@skelband, I'm an expat Brit in Canada too. I'm
"also" a libertarian.
Let us face it, different companies try to appeal to different clienteles.
It is the antithesis of libertarianism to assume that all companies are trying to appeal to a single group of consumers.
Large companies have ads and events that appeal to (suck in) one set of consumers, while ignoring another.
Imagine running ad advertisement in Arabic in Israel. Or Muslims in France. You're going to turn off people outside the target demographic.
That is how the real word is. You do one ad to target women consumers. And other ads to target men consumers.
Only a totalitarian would expect to be pandered too all the time.
Yeah, sometimes companies are going to sponsor TV programs and advertising that pander to someone other than the "14 to 23 year-0old female" demographic group. Now you know how it feels to the rest of humanity 95% of the time.
Really out of control. They keep dancing and making parties. They are a scam.
Hell, this is a big improvement, since there weren't any fat, old, bald white guys throwing chairs and screaming:
So when do the dancers show up at your door to induce you finally download and install Windows 10? Looking at the apparent desperation that MS is having with not just Windows 10 on PC's, what will be next?
Their history is filled with manipulation and dirty dealings. I find their double-standards and overall underhandedness to be despicable.
So when do the dancers show up at your door to induce you finally download and install Windows 10? Looking at the apparent desperation that MS is having with not just Windows 10 on PC's, what will be next?
I'd install w10 in return for a blowjob from a pretty young girl. Might be the only thing that would induce me to. Also I'd delete it ASAP afterward in favour of Mint, curmudgeon that I am :-)
You hire sexy girls and have wealthy developers show up. Perhaps there is a hook up. Then they get married. Then they breed. Then you have sexy developers.
For the girls, you are surrounded by horny intelligent introverts. Perhaps there is a hook up. You get married. You breed. Then you have sexy developers.
I'm not sure how to see this other than a win win.
Well... I remember a Dutch TV show (talkshow) which featured a highly intellectual guy (I don't fully recall the context) and Miss Holland (don't know which year). They started talking somewhat casually and then the host mentioned how this could be perfect: if they had a child then it would probably be beautiful and highly intelligent. So in other words perfect.
So the professor looks up, grins, and says to the host: "Or the child could get my looks and her brains" after which the whole audience had to laugh it out ;)
"Or the child could get my looks and her brains" after which the whole audience had to laugh it out ;)
That is a rip-off of George Bernard Shaw:
http://shawquotations.blogspot.ca/2015/04/a-child-with-your-brains-and-my-looks.html
"This definition, of course, must have borrowed from the anecdote alluded to in Hesketh Pearson’s Bernard Shaw: His Life and Personality (p. 310-311) when “a strange lady giving an address in Zürich wrote him a proposal, thus: “You have the greatest brain in the world, and I have the most beautiful body; so we ought to produce the most perfect child.” Shaw asked: “What if the child inherits my body and your brains?”"
So Kamina Vincent deleted the images to blur the dancer's face, which would appear to be so as not to cause the dancer embarrassment, however did not extend the same courtesy to the males who were at the event, who for all she knew could have been as disgusted as she claims to be. To me, that is as sexist an attitude as she is claiming Microsoft had, but of course that won't be picked up on as everyone knows you can't be sexist against males.
Errr... despite me agreeing it's a fuck up, overreaction much?
A serious public apology and better event vetting should suffice and is better than mere scapegoating.
Plenty of other, guiltier, parties @ MS to have walk the plank: ribbon ui, metro ui, charms, win 10 telemetry, win 10 nagware, whoever gratuitously rearranges settings dialogs from release to release...
"...fire the responsible party(ies), already!"
Sigh. Typical SJW torch-waving vigilante, always roaring for a witch to burn. Somebody offends your delicate little sensitivities? Sack them, smash them, ruin their lives, so you can rub your smug little hands together in sanctimonious self-satisfaction that others have been forced once again to grovel to your ideology.
My consolation is that idiots like you will be the first victims of the hell you seek to create for others, the moment you make even the slightest mistake.
Yes, and all those gaming industry salespeople trying to pretend that a discussion of the uncontested journalistic misconduct of "complete and total lack of impartiality and lack of full disclosure of conflict of interest" is a discussion of "equal pay for equal work".
Salespeople should refrain from pretending to be journalists.
She'd probably be offended by that as well, if not more, because that would reinforce the stereotype even more in her eyes, plus being Forced To Watch Male Flesh, and stuff.
Mind.. a quick look at her twats teaches that she's pretty volatile, short-fused, and prone to CAPS!!, so there's probably no pleasing her to begin with.
Bring back Blamer - he always knew who's fault screwups were.
I'm not a prude, but on the other hand this was supposed to be a tech. event, not a strip club, and moreover the organisers seem to have assumed that this event would only be attended by lecherous teenage boys, not women or couples.
This isn't the first time that the XBox mob have displayed poor taste. They have a long history of crude advertising, but then so does Microsoft [NSFW] in general.
"its not a strip club. Her skirts on and her tits are covered"
For that matter, "school girls"? So how come a "sexy school girl" always seems to be in a sort of school uniform of white shirt and tartan skirt? Are school uniforms common in Real World USA? It doesn't seem so in TV Land USA. Or is this some sort of historical tradition in Porno Land USA?
"For that matter, "school girls"? So how come a "sexy school girl" always seems to be in a sort of school uniform of white shirt and tartan skirt? Are school uniforms common in Real World USA?"
Its a Japanese porn meme, not USA
Check out the Japanese "channel" on xHamster.com and you'll get more than a few examples
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"When I was at school ... the girls didn't dress like that."
Wrong school, wrong country, or wrong era perhaps?
I went through two diifferent high schools in the late 70s/early 80s, in Adelaide, Australia. Girls back then did wear school uniform dresses, which were generally some variation of a gingham or checkered style pattern; I don't recall any being tartan or plaid for any of the schools in my area.
The length of the dress depended on the time of year and the girl wearing it. In winter, dresses tended to be half-calf length to knee length overall. In summer, the "geeky" girls tended to keep their hemlines below the knee or at most only just above it. But the "popular" girls, on the other hand, wore their hemlines as far up their thighs as the school would allow - generally revealing between 1/2 to 2/3 of the length of the thigh while standing, and a lot more than that when sitting down!
Then there were the PE outfits we wore for sports: T-shirts on top, boys generally in footy/rugby shorts that left most of our legs exposed, girls wearing netball-style short skirts that revealed about 2/3 - 3/4 thigh length standing.
It appears, from the occasions I've had to pop into my local shopping centre after school lets out, that high schools today have much more conservative standards than they did back then.
High school in Victoria in the 60s was far more exciting. Winters were rather cold back then, so some of the girls took to wearing long knickers called "witches britches" and they were banned. It was rather exciting watching the senior mistress throw a girl to the floor and remove the offending knickers from one of the girls. It was my first sight of a girl's cunt.
Pompus Git: Jeeze, how times have changed! A teacher doing that to a student these days would end in a public lynching of the entire school faculty...
Another thing I recall from about 1980 or so, was a craze the girls had for wearing black, very brief knickers called "bumhuggers." They favoured these because the dark material was visible through the gingham dress, which of course attracted attention. It didn't take long for the teachers to cotton on to it though and the school soon banned them, although I never saw the teachers go to the extremes you describe; any girl who came to school wearing black bumhuggers was simply sent home to change.
I suppose by the 80s the anti-corporal-discipline malaise was setting in. I remember in primary school in the 70s getting the cane for misbehaviour was a very real threat, but by the time I reached Year 10 it had pretty much been phased out.
Not a photo, but some verse from that famousest Australian poet, Bob Herrick:
Whenas in Speedos Julia goes,Their fabric seemeth to expose
The wonders it doth juxtapose!
Next, when I cast mine eyes and see,
That lycra stretching each way free,
Tumescence overtaketh me!
I like scantily clad girls dancing, I appreciate their efforts, quite often I tip them for their work. I know I should care about the hurt feelings of others, but at this point in my life, I'm just over it. Don't like it? Then you should leave and go to some other event.
Microsoft made a calculation that MOST of the attendees would enjoy the entertainment. They were right.
If I went to an event where I was in the minority demographically in the audience, and the food / music / entertainment / whatever, was not what I liked, I would not send hate tweets to the organizer. I might not go next time, but I am grown up enough to not expect the world to worry about my feelings.
Didn't feel welcome some place? I don't care. Nobody beat you up. Nobody harassed you. You just didn't like the entertainment.
Get over yourself.
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In general I would agree with your comments ..... but......
Remember that hurting someone's feelings ONCE may be a minor thing that they get over or it could be yet another occasion when they are hurt which happens multiple times every day.
As you cannot know which is the case it is better not to do it.
An extreme example to clarify by is when people abuse people because of their race or religion in a jokey way that is meant in jest.
The one instance by that one person is not enough to be upset about by the judgement of that one person, which would possibly be true if it was just once in jest but the context changes the impact and result of the 'Just Joking' event when it is in reality one of many events that happen everyday for years on end.
I would suggest that you possibly need to reconsider the impact of your actions even when it is 'just once' or in jest.
Your own personal point of view via your own experiences is not always the best position to judge the result of your actions from.
The phrase 'Walk a mile in someone else's shoes' comes to mind.
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Destroy All Monsters,
Nice joke :)
Only works if you Ignoring the context.
If you read between the lines I do not mean some nonsense 'Oh Dear you hurt my feelings!!'
I am not some 'Tree-hugging liberal' as the 'Trumps of the world' would say.
(Sorry if not PC :( )
I am someone who has been through this situation and still do as a consequence of the color of my skin. (Hint, Hint)
I hope that is clear enough for you.!!
I was trying to make a point without getting too specific as it often offends for some reason.
but the hard truth, if gaming and consoles were driven by middle aged women, then no one would bat an eye at male dancers.
the money is being spent (or demanding parents to spend) by young men. Who like T&A. So the wise marketer makes it for those who drive sales.
Not the people who really don't care or are Professionally Outraged anyway.
There's also the question of whether 'gamer' includes all that fidget and addiction crap like gambling (yes including bingo) and anything that goes bingely bingely beep because you forgot to grab a freebie paper at the station because the inclusion of these would be of major significance.
A civ/war/farm game is probably reasonable to include though.
p.s. No, if there's a line I don't know exactly where it would be...
Fail because it's plain wrong. And because some of the attendees rightly felt to have been offended, insulted and undermined by this sexism.
Fail because they were too stupid to see that this was going to cause (even more) reputational damage.
Fail because there was no way that they could expect to keep that sort of stupidity under cover.
>Counting from zero? IT angle - well an off by one error....
(4) Fail for revealing an abhorrent corporate culture to the outside world.
The "exploitation" angle isn't really about the girls involved. It's about promoting the general idea that sex can be bought and paid for and is therefore under my control, that it is all about me and what I can get, without reference to the other person. It's about getting (or providing) sexual satisfaction outside of a real relationship, in a way manner which a real relationship can't match because a real relationship deals with imperfect people, not an unattainable showcase, an idealised imagination, which never has to deal with the reality of dirty dishes in the sink and inconsiderate drunken remarks.
Fake sex and fake relationships have a surprising capacity to mess up real relationships. Of course it isn't an easily identifiable one-to-one cause-effect thing, but the one does undermine the other. It's downright disrespectful to real partners and would also lead to awkwardness for those in relationships.
>(4) Fail for revealing an abhorrent corporate culture to the outside world.
This, if true, wouldn't constitute a failure, but an error.
>The "exploitation" angle isn't really about the girls involved. It's about promoting the general idea that sex can be bought and paid for and is therefore under my control, that it is all about me and what I can get, without reference to the other person. It's about getting (or providing) sexual satisfaction outside of a real relationship, in a way manner which a real relationship can't match because a real relationship deals with imperfect people, not an unattainable showcase, an idealised imagination, which never has to deal with the reality of dirty dishes in the sink and inconsiderate drunken remarks.
In this paragraph, you're selling sex as a commodified service. And doing it fairly well, I must add. It's difficult to discern where, in such exchanges, exploitation occurs; to the extent that the commercial exchange involved is entered into freely (i.e. willingly) by all parties, there doesn't appear to be any exploitation. The 'fake/real' dichotomy you hold out is only relevant (i.e. problematic) when a party to sex-as-a-service exchanges professes fealty in a "real" relationship--or to the idea of such--by being in one.
The 'fake/real' dichotomy you hold out is only relevant (i.e. problematic) when a party to sex-as-a-service exchanges professes fealty in a "real" relationship--or to the idea of such--by being in one.
You've done better than I Michael. I gave up trying to parse what a "fake" relationship might be.
On the other hand, the sort of people who view sexual exploitation as "entertainment" tend to be permanently single.
They were being sexually exploited by being paid to dance, fully clothed? Maybe if they earnt the money they need giving blowjobs in dark alleyways they wouldn't be sexually exploited. Was the Git being sexually exploited when the only job he could get in 1970 was undraped male model for an art class? Several of the girls were utterly fascinated by the Git's tackle as he was the first male model they had that didn't wear a jockstrap. Couldn't afford one.
"On the other hand, the sort of people who view sexual exploitation as "entertainment" tend to be permanently single."
No. They tend to be the wives of sports superstars who've been sued for half their assets by people whose claim to that money is their gender.
Make no mistake, women are not so hugely different from men as you think.
"On the other hand, the sort of people who view sexual exploitation as "entertainment"
Are you saying those poor exploited girls are too stupid or too brainwashed to realise that they are degrading and prostituting themselves for mere dirty filthy money?
I do think MS got this wrong, but not for the reasons you seem to be espousing.
If her face looked as happy as her tweets sound she would be as welcome as a fart in a space suit.
Or did she require something like the Chippendales to feel welcomed?
To all the blokes posting here trying to show off their feminine side here's a tip - it ain't going to get you laid.
'Fraid not. Next year it's the Black and White Minstrel Show. Hosted by Ian Duncan Smith sitting in a wheelchair in blackface makeup performing Bernard Manning's greatest jokes. The arrticle about it on here will prompt a huge flood of comments accusing those objecting to the performance of "political correctness gone mad".
Pease provide a "Tech Nerd Alan Partridge" icon for their convenience.
That the dancers are absolutely female?
Who knows, in this day and age, rather like their latest OS "10" there could be surprises lurking under the covers.
Aw, a wave of nostalgia for Dudley Moore and extras from the real life "10" has just washed over me. When i say washed i may be exaggerating a bit, a lot.
The time has come for us social justice warriors to make ourselves heard!
It is nigh time the world changed to put us everyone on an equal footing. In order to adhive this I suggest the following.
All men and women should be forcibly made to dress the same and look as sexless as possible. Dresses shall be outlawed except where there are of traditional significance (for example kilts) Women would have to cut their hair short. Not shave body hair. Not be allowed to wear make up or jewelry. Nor should they be allowed to wear perfume. They should also be forced into manual labor jobs that are mainly done by the male population. Men should in turn be forced to take on roles typically attributed to women such as working in day care centers for children.
The age of gender roles is nearly at an end my comrades! Let us rise up as one against this disgusting gender abomination and make the world one of equal opportunities for all!
Is The Reg really going to join the ultra-right wing extremists of the regressive "left"?
Is The Reg really going to advocate for ignoring what the customer base is?
Is The Reg really going to advocate against companies supporting "campaigns against breast cancer" that ignore all other forms of cancer?
Is The Reg really going to become a fascist newspaper that argues for the totalitarianism of (not feminism) but "third wave feminism".
This was I believe a private club night after GDC to encourage indie developers and publishers to get together and talk after the days lectures. If you search for #GDC loud on Twitter you'll see plenty of people complain the event was too loud to talk. Also, Sony last month on national TV;
http://i.imgur.com/WTc1PVe.gif
It's not a problem at an individual publisher or developer or format holder, its a problem for the industry and from what I understand is a common occurrence in Silicone Valley, events like this do not help the drive to get more female programmers/engineers into the industry.
For transparency I am male, British and an Xbox gamer with Windows 10 installed.
Asian corps are in a class of their own when it comes to booth babes.
Look at any Samsung product launch, and you're likely to see an attractive Korean lady holding the product: https://www.google.com/search?q=samsung+girls&tbm=isch
Cars too: https://www.google.com/search?q=asian+car+babes&tbm=isch (NSFWish)
More problematic Xbox babes spotted: http://ukresistance.co.uk/pics5/asian-babe-lucky-dip.jpg
"Asian corps are in a class of their own when it comes to booth babes.
Look at any Samsung product launch, and you're likely to see an attractive Korean lady"
anyone know of a good Korean massage parlour in northwest England? I know of lots of Thai ones, a few Chinese and even Japanese in Manchester, but no Koreans. Something I'd like to try as I've heard good things about Korean massage technique
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Downvote all you want for my Windows 10 install, it brought my Pentium Dual-Core Dell laptop back to life, added drivers to the finger print scanner that Windows 7 could not find and it now boots up within 20 seconds using the stock hard drive. I am perhaps in the minority here on El Reg, but I like it!
"CEO Satya Nadella was forced to apologize last year when he told attendees at the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing event that women in the industry should trust karma when it came to getting pay equality rather than demanding fair pay."
Maybe he should put his trust in karma that people will want to switch to Windows 10 on their own accord instead of ramming it down their throats.
But seriously, I thought consenting adult A paying consenting adult B was a fairly legal / equal transaction.
You could have male promo people there, but then it would be about race.
You could have varied ethnic background promo people there but then it'd be about "positive body" image.
You could have fat, multi-racial promo people but then it'd be about the lack of disabled.
You could have disabled, fat, multi-ethnic promo people but then it'd be about height.
Truth is - stale c**ts, because their whole purpose is to be offended (and therefore implying they must immediately be placated) means there is always something "wrong". I would of had way more respect for Xbox as a brand if they said "we wanted some school girl uniformed babes, go f**k yourself".
For how a company should handle themselves with the tides of feminist thought police, look no further than the "beach body ready" campaign.
As for Asian promo models, I spend a lot of time in Malaysia / Thailand. If you're into hot chicks not wearing much, just go to a mall there. Seriously.
F**k feminism, it's cancerous.
I say this as a 50 year old male gamer who cut my teeth on pong and now plays Titanfall. It just keeps getting worse.
I hold the industry complicit in catering to (what I hope is just a loud minority, but probably not) of entitled, amoral, misogynist,and possibly psychopathic, gamer assholes.
Pretty disgusted by many of the comments made here by intelligent people who should know better!
For all those saying that Microsoft are just "Targeting their demographic", no they are not!! GDC is an industry event designed around discussions about technology developments and the future of the industry. I'm stunned that people on this forum cannot see that alienating female developers and industry professionals of both sexes by clearly focussing on the *entertainment* of straight male attendees is both insulting and demeaning to both the Xbox brand and anyone working in the industry.
I work in the games industry and when only 10% of the CV's we receive are from female applicants, we clearly have a problem with attracting women into the industry. This damages both the reputation of our industry and perpetuates the idea that women are not welcome. Microsoft reinforcing this stereotype is NOT acceptable.
I'm stunned that people on this forum cannot see that alienating female developers and industry professionals of both sexes by clearly focussing on the *entertainment* of straight male attendees is both insulting and demeaning to both the Xbox brand and anyone working in the industry.
You are of course correct. They should have alienated the 90% to appease the 10% who likely wouldn't have turned up anyway.
[Why doesn't HTML have a sarc tag?]
"You are of course correct. They should have alienated the 90% to appease the 10% who likely wouldn't have turned up anyway."
Nice attempt to twist my words, but that's not what I said or implied.
My point still stands, Microsoft should not be making efforts to alienate ANY attendees of GDC. At an event designed to foster open discussion amongst "all" industry professionals, anything which discourages attendance or participation by any member of the industry is counter-productive to the whole aim of the event.
Nice attempt to twist my words, but that's not what I said or implied.
The implication is there, nevertheless. And I didn't twist your words, I merely posited a situation opposite to the one you are moaning about. Personally, I have no problem with shows where there are no dancing girls. Nor do I have a problem with shows where there are dancing girls. I do believe that pretty young girls should be allowed to earn a living doing what they in all likelihood enjoy. I also object to do-gooderesses objecting to people doing what they wish when it causes no obvious harm to anybody.
I would also assume the organisers of these events have organised shows both with and without pretty young dancing girls and drawn the conclusion that the former are more effective. If not, then they would merely be a waste of money.
For some reason your attitude reminds me of the kind of situation a friend described in The People's Paradise when she lived there. Nobody was "alienated", but no-one was happy. Rather the opposite was true. Being miserable yourself gives you no inalienable right to inflict your misery on others.
"The implication is there, nevertheless."
No it wasn't.
"And I didn't twist your words, I merely posited a situation opposite to the one you are moaning about."
The opposite of offending 10% of attendees is not to offend the other 90%. Nice straw man. You seem intent on willfully misrepresenting my position in this discussion.
"Personally, I have no problem with shows where there are no dancing girls. Nor do I have a problem with shows where there are dancing girls. I do believe that pretty young girls should be allowed to earn a living doing what they in all likelihood enjoy. I also object to do-gooderesses objecting to people doing what they wish when it causes no obvious harm to anybody."
I agree with you, despite your attempts to imply otherwise. This discussion thread has been hijacked by people like yourself trying to make this issue about a womens right to be a "dancer" and crusaders against feminism.
The issue for me is much simpler than that. An industry event designed around the "whole" industry coming together to discuss and brainstorm the future of the industry does itself no favours by discouraging participation by anyone. FACT.
"For some reason your attitude reminds me of the kind of situation a friend described in The People's Paradise when she lived there. Nobody was "alienated", but no-one was happy. Rather the opposite was true. Being miserable yourself gives you no inalienable right to inflict your misery on others."
?!? Not sure where that came from. "Pompous Git" by name and by nature.....
Serious question, are you equally "disgusted" that there are 90% more female nurses to male? Or that hair dressers are overwhelmingly women?
Serious answer. No, as those ratios are changing now that gender stereotypes are being recognised and becoming less important in the 21st century.
I would however be offended if there was a worldwide conference about the future direction of nursing and one of the mayor industry players hosted an event with male strippers. Especially if that company had held a lunch event a few days before entitled "Men in Nursing" that was designed to promote the inclusion and advancement of men in nursing.
Games are consumed by roughly 50% men/women and yet 90% of that content is directed/created by men. I believe the industry and society is best served by equal representation in that society.
I would however be offended if there was a worldwide conference about the future direction of nursing and one of the mayor industry players hosted an event with male strippers.
How long have the young girls at this event suddenly become strippers? I rather thought "scantily clad" was stretching it a bit, given what I expect to see in the Hobart CBD come Monday lunchtime. Never mind the beach, or the swimming pool!
While you might be offended by male strippers, I might expect to be either bored, or amused. Mind you, I do recall a rather excellent film in which some Yorkshire miners stripped. And I cannot recall too many people who declared they were offended, though doubtless there were some viewers who were. It seems to be in the Nature of offendees to be offended.
>Games are consumed by roughly 50% men/women[...]
I don't know many gamers myself (or perhaps more that it's not something we discuss because I'm not one myself) but it surprises that the ratio is that balanced. Are you sure? Is your data personal/anecdotal, or from research by others?
That being the case, to what extent (if at all) do female gamers feel the unbalanced developer ecosystem is thus far letting them down? What are their common complaints about gaming in general as a pastime, or the games on offer? Interested in your observations from within the industry.
it surprises that the ratio is that balanced. Are you sure? Is your data personal/anecdotal, or from research by others?
https://www.superdataresearch.com/
In the US, women playing PC games outnumber men. Women play more RPGs than men, while men outnumber women in the FPS and MMO genres. Overall roughly 50/50.
But how relevant is this when as Jon Arden says, this is about devs, not players. While a dev plays games, a gamer doesn't necessarily have even the vaguest interest in development. They are not comparable.
"I would however be offended if there was a worldwide conference about the future direction of nursing and one of the mayor industry players hosted an event with male strippers. "
round here the nurses do quite nicely hiring their own male strippers whenever they have a party. They don't need to go to any conferences. Mind you that last one I heard about, the stripper got pissed off about the spray-on whipped cream.......
> I would however be offended if there was a worldwide conference about the future direction of nursing and one of the mayor industry players hosted an event with male strippers.
That pretty much defines you as a prude. Most people wouldn't care.
No, it defines me as someone who recognises that in a work environment (many people at this event where there in that capacity remember) this kind of thing is inappropriate.
As I stated above I have no problem with strippers and whatever else people want to do on their *own* time, just not at a corporate networking event where many people are there representing their employer.
> No, it defines me as someone who recognises that in a work environment (many people at this event where there in that capacity remember) this kind of thing is inappropriate.
You'd feel uncomfortable seeing male strippers at a nurses bash, and you feel you're not a prude?
Just ... wow. Please get out more. :D
"I work in the games industry and when only 10% of the CV's we receive are from female applicants, we clearly have a problem with attracting women into the industry."
no - it just means that more of the candidates you ARE getting are likely to fit the job.
Face it - most women are obsessed with makeup, fashion, reading sex advice in Cosmopolitan, and screwing their latest husband for a divorce settlement. They don't want a job - except in between money pigs
The 1970's called and wants its attitudes back.
Having reached my twenties in the 70s, I can report it's when we (those of us in that age group) discovered that granting equality to women paid handsome dividends. In the period since there has come about a prevailing attitude that mirrors the misogyny of the generation preceding ours. And it's just as ugly.
Indeed. I recall when Mrs Git and I first met. We took turns at driving until one day, a do-gooderess told me I was oppressing the woman I was about to commit the rest of my life to obeying. The ensuing discussion between us led to my discovering that SWMBO absolutely adored driving and she discovered that the Git rather loathed it. So, Mrs Git drives and the Git listens to music on the vehicle's CD player.
Needless to say, a do-gooderess declared the Git was oppressing SWMBO by allowing her to do all the driving while doing none himself. Whatever the Git does is automatically oppression from the mere fact that he is a male.
So, thought experiment:
If girls weren't allowed to work as whatever they wanted they would be oppressed.
However,
Dressing up as school girls and dancing means they are oppressed??
So what's the solution? The shaven-headed feminazis now choose which professions these girls / women can interact with?
Yeah, can't be great for Tin Man Games to see the crude level of language and poor judgement of an employee paraded out in an internet meme. Also bad for the promotion of more female involvement in tech.
In answer to your question, possibly. In my limited experience. But most have the good sense to keep their riper language off the public record.
I find first person shooters offensive yet I do not hear calls for the promotion of such games not be allowed at a gamers' event. If the event is supposedly to "offend no-one" then in all likelihood you will find that there is no event. Yes, I do know people who declare they are offended by ALL computer games. My preference is for turn-based strategy, but I would never seek to impose my preference on anyone else.
There is no shortage of wimmins (sic) events of all sorts being held around the world. If you are so concerned you could conceivably organise a wimmins only event. No dancing girls. No nerdy young blokes allowed. Naturally the wimmin would object to you, a bloke, organising that event. All in the interests of equality and not giving offence of course ;-)
@ Pompous Git
I can't disagree with anything you said there.
If this had been at E3 or GamesCom or any of the many other public facing "Marketing" or "PR" events for games then I would agree with you. People have the right to be offended and people have the right to cause offence. I'll pay that price for a free society.
However, GDC is not that kind of event and its aims and ambitions will not be fully realised by even inadvertently discouraging women from participating or feeling included in the industry. GDC used to be mainly about and to some extent still is about talks and presentations on new mathematical approaches to AI and GFX rendering techniques and women are represented 40/60 female to male on Mathematics degrees. This was not a Call of Duty promotional event.
which obscure country is that in then?
The USA of course ;-)
Computer Science and Engineering majors have stagnated at less than 10% of all degrees conferred in the U.S. for the past decade, while the demand for employees with programming and engineering skills continue to outpace the supply every year. Compare this to more woman-dominated majors such as Business and Health Professions, which comprise 1/3 of all college degrees in 2012 when combined.
Emphasis mine. Source:
http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/14/percentage-of-bachelors-degrees-conferred-to-women-by-major-1970-2012/
GDC used to be mainly about and to some extent still is about talks and presentations on new mathematical approaches to AI and GFX rendering techniques and women are represented 40/60 female to male on Mathematics degrees.
My first response to this seems to have gone into moderation, or dev null so I won't repeat what was in that post (comments from a lady friend). However, I forgot two things.
Have an upvote.
And it's a very great mistake to believe that if you have a 40/60 ratio for maths degrees, that doesn't necessarily translate to a similar ratio in regards to game development.
Also forgot to address your bewilderment regarding my People's paradise comment. In that peculiar place, it's frequently minority rules Example: My friend lived in an apartment block and the heating was set to appease the person who felt coldest. Therefore, the majority, being too hot otherwise, perforce had to open the windows to allow the "excess" heat energy escape. Of course this is an inversion of common sense, but then that's what happens when the minority is appeased.
You may want to watch The Fireman's Ball, Miloš Forman's last movie before moving to the USA. It was permanently banned in the USSR for its exposure of The People's Paradise. It's a hoot!
I can't disagree with anything you said there.
Jon, I suspect that we have been arguing orthoganally rather than opposedly. Clearly I misunderstood the type of event. So, I passed the problem by a lady friend who also worked in IT. She suggests:
Definitely no male strippers. You need a homosexual piano player; whoever is in the line of descent from Liberace, through Peter Allen and Elton John. Definitely not Portishead or their ilk. (We both heard Portishead for the first time at a MS event).
Lots of pink. And definitely no computers. While some women look favourably on them, most women don't. They are a complete turnoff. Also, you are going to need to eliminate most of the blokes coming to the event. Too high a ratio and women won't attend. "New mathematical approaches to AI and GFX rendering techniques" are a definite turnoff for most women. They'd rather stick needles through their eyes than attend such an event.
If my lady friend is correct, and she's certainly a very insightful woman of almost fearsome intellect, you have a problem. Unless you can promise lots of unmarried millionaires in which case women will sacrifice an awful lot to get a crack at marrying one.
Its ten years since I last attended GDC but in my era went to loads of vendor parties. If you wanted to see eye candy you had to bring your own. Tiny proportion of women.
A company like Microsoft wouldn't dream then of delivering such a sexist message or hire someone who's idea of marketing is so 1970s so what a backward step. If whoevers responsible for this nonsense hasn't resigned already Monday would not be too soon for he, she, or other to be terminated.
I still mostly see over 80% male at technical events but it is progress however slow. I don't think the complainants twitter messaging is very helpful however.
I think those who take offense are the people with a problem. Seriously. This is a Mary Whitehouse nightmare. If there were children there then fair enough. But FFS!
Best not visit /b/ on 4chinz or it may break you 'fwagile lickle' minds!
Grow a thick skin and stop thinking so much about what is basically 'nothing'.
... that if one was really serious about bringing on women as game developers (for the most popular games at least) you would need to start in infancy. Deprive the infant girl of dolls and fluffy toys, and replace them with various weapons. This might be construed as cruel and unusual punishment...
Who was it who said "You do not have the right to not be offended, and behaving as if you do is offensive"?
If you're the type of person who is that keen to be offended that you spaff all over twitter at the sight of a scantily-clad person of either gender then I neither care what gender you are, nor do I want you working for my organisation.
"'At Xbox-hosted events at GDC this past week, we represented Xbox and Microsoft in a way that was not consistent or aligned to our values. It was unequivocally wrong and will not be tolerated,' Phil Spencer, head of Xbox, told The Register."
Great! So ... you're going to resign then, Phil?
No. Of course not.
"'I know we disappointed many people and I’m personally committed to holding ourselves to higher standards. We must ensure that diversity and inclusion are central to our everyday business and core values. We will do better in the future.'"
Yeah, right. I'm sure. You suck, Phil.
[emphasis mine]Women are earning, spending, and influencing spending at a greater rate than ever before. In fact, women account for $7 trillion in consumer and business spending in the United States, and over the next decade, they will control two thirds of consumer wealth. Women make or influence 85% of all purchasing decisions, and purchase over 50% of traditional male products, including automobiles, home improvement products and consumer electronics.
http://thenextweb.com/socialmedia/2012/01/24/the-top-30-stats-you-need-to-know-when-marketing-to-women/#gref
Poor women...
There were two "aren't women great" events mentioned in the article.
There is no such thing as equality and no-one agrees on what is acceptable either way, meanwhile i will continue to live as a normal man and suggest we have hot girls dancing for all our events.
I can't believe some of the comments. Why do these dancers keep being referred to or linked to as strippers? That seems rather disrespectful to what they do, and I'm sure they'd have a very different view on their job.
I can't believe the political correctness gone made and how these dancers get labelled. They wear more clothes than you see on a typical night out in a British Northern Town on a Friday or Saturday night.
I guess some people just aren't happy unless they are offended.
Most people yearn to have a sense of purpose. Many don't really get to have one. Which is why some who stumble upon a cause they can (mis)appropriate proceed to wield it so fiercely and fanatically - deep down they know full well they are basically naked without their chosen mantle, and that's not something they can ever afford to admit, even to themselves - so they cling to it with all the force they've got.
I went to see Paloma Faith last November, I was in the front row, the two chairs next to me were occupied by a lesbian couple, every time there was view up Ms Faith's skirt or a flash of knickers these two women would try their best to get a shot on their mobeys every success was celebrated with a high five and the words "another one for the wank bank!"
And no, they didn't offer to share :-|
"I went to see Paloma Faith last November"
Perhaps the name of the band she was in says it all: Paloma and the Penetrators. "She" bears a remarkable resemblance to a member of an all-male, cross-dressing troupe one of my friends performed in back in the 1970s.
So.. look.. men like looking at sexy women dancing. We do. I'm sorry but I have a penis and it controls what I think. It makes most of my decisions for me. It's actually quite fun, although I think it is ageing faster than the rest of me.
To bring equality to this event they should have introduced something that women like as much as men like sexy girls. I'm not sure what that would be though. Ponies? Puppy room? Perhaps a woman could enlighten us all, because I'm nearly 50 and I've yet to work out the answer to that question.
And while I'm here. This was a games developers shindig right? The dancing women in this video are wearing significantly more clothing than any of the female video game characters I've recently masturbate... seen. Does the woman who works for the videogame company and objects to scantily clad real women not think the same objectification argument applies to animation? Because, as the owner of a penis I can tell you that if you're objectifying it really doesn't matter if it's made of flesh or pixels.
"To bring equality to this event they should have introduced something that women like as much as men like sexy girls. I'm not sure what that would be though. Ponies? Puppy room"
the answers simple: the "three Ps": Penises, Ponies and Puppies
But if you were to provide them at the same time, someone would probably get locked up.
Cosplay... Has anyone ever seen images from these conventions? Lots of women dressing up as their favorite characters from sci-fi/fantasy/manga etc.
And almost all in extremely revealing costumes. Is anyone forcing them to wear these outfits? Nope. They wear them because they want to.
Next time some feminazi bangs on about "explotation", just remind them of the fact that it's not just guys who like seeing characters dressed like that.
Yeah... I think there's a long tradition of having booth babes at these shows. Clearly they are there to be eye candy, but generally they would be dressed up to resemble characters in the game, or wearing a shirt with the logo on it or something. Just having some random hired dancers show up and start dancing on pedastals seems sleazy.
You can't please everyone, this is a simple fact of life.
And if you go out of your way to DISplease NOONE, then you will wind up with an "event" which is mind-numbingly dull, held in a beige room of carefully-moderated, diffuse lightning, with a smooth jazz version of The Girl from Ipanema playing, where the snacks consist of all-you-can-eat, gluten-free, salt-free crackers carefully chosen to be absolutely inoffensive to anyone, regardless of religion, background, racial origin, dietary restrictions (medical or otherwise,) and absolutely, positively unlikely to bring up any objections.
So what exactly should be done, then? Obviously, Microsoft were attempting to throw a party; clearly a party for those tuned-in to the culture of video gaming. I see dark lights, laser decorations, probably pumping music, so clearly "I wish I were still 22" fading-youthful enthusiasm was the theme of the party. It seems to me that sexually-attractive dancers fit that theme in ways that, say, a marathon screening of Season 1 of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic would not have been, irregardless of whether or not many people there would have enjoyed it.
So, what exactly are the ladies who stormed out complaining about? That they were not equally represented, because Microsoft failed to hire a busload of chippendale dancers? They would absolutely have a point in raising that complaint; fair is fair. If you're going to titilate the men in the audience, you should titilate the women. (Also, on the topic of inclusiveness, an all-girls dancing lineup would have done little to nothing for the gay men in the group, while it would have been fine for the gay women, and vice-versa.)
Now, if their complaint is that they find it degrading, I have to ask: why? THEY were not asked to don skimpy schoolgirl outfits and dance for their colleagues, were they? They certainly would have a bone to pick if they were, of course, but they were not. There was no implicit assumption "you are female, therefore you should dance/be sexy/do chores" involved.
The specific complaint I read was "This is the first fucking time I've felt this unwelcome at a games event. I know it happens and it shits me." Well, why does she feel unwelcome? Perhaps, more importantly, the question should be: how do we resolve that? Those who get offended love to complaint about these sorts of things, but they seldom offer constructive suggestions to resolve the issue.
Does she want male dancers alongside the female ones? Easily done next time, with a hearty "mea culpa" to boot. Fair is fair, after all, but...
Is the problem instead one more fundamental? That she feels alienated by things which are stereotypical of masculine culture (female dancers,) and wants not to see them, not that she wishes to have her own equal treatment in the matter? I mean, if that's what she wants, okay, I guess...
But it's a step towards the beige room. And honestly, who wants to have a "party" in a beige room with the Elevator from Ipanema playing?
Nobody wants the Elevator from Ipanema. Nobody wants a beige room.
I also noted, particularly, the following comment: "Fuck you xbox & your fucking "dancing" girls who are here to talk to the boys (You're not men if you buy into that act) #GDC16"
This is an astonishing level of hostility and, indeed, sexism. This I find saddening from someone who is purporting to support gender equality (which is what feminism is *actually* supposed to be about,) as it should be no more acceptable to label a group of men "boys" than it should be to label a group of women "girls."
Well, yeah.
But audience-wise... I just don't get it.
Sure, land-whales are traditionally considered more of Apple market, so not kissing up to them is not too great a surprise.
But for weeaboos X-box isn't the toy of choice either. So why did they think doing it Animu Style will be a great idea? Even fursuits would have more of a chance.
What about all the vegetarians and vegans offended by the meat served? Or the tea-totalers by all the beer? I bet Kamina is writing offended letters to the local papers in a couple of years.
Sounds like just another tawdry corporate event to me. They're either naff, boring or both and you know that before you go. Why do you go? Because of the free food and booze.
... exactly how far the apologists will go before they accept that there IS a teensy-weensy little problem with IT culture.
Don't think I have ever, ever read so many absolutely idiotic ways of attempting to get out of one hole. This is worth remembering for future articles that make claims of the "boys are put upon!" variety. "Naah, it's just you malenazis trying to censor free expression!"
Oh, yeah. We're nearing adulthood here, without a doubt.
The misogynists in this thread (specifically anyone who invoked the phrase "feminiazis") are disgusting, but frankly, I find the assertion that there is a "problem" with IT culture to be disturbing.
Yes, a woman who joins a workforce has every right to be free of sexual harassment, to not be creeped upon or dismissed because of her gender; she has every right to expect equal pay and equal treatment, to expect that her fellow workers will not make inappropriate remarks about her or gossip about her or level expectations upon her that they would not level upon a coworker who is a man, simply because she is a woman.
But complaining about the culture of the workplace being noninclusive because part of that culture is sexualized objectivization and exuberant parties... You don't want to join that culture, at that point: you want to club that culture into being what you want it to be.
It would be like joining an English Hunt and complaining, say, about the bright red outfits, or the horseback riding, or the fact that you're hunting a living animal in a fashion which was considered a little cruel in the days of Queen Victoria. Sure, it may be those things... But it's a frigging English Hunt! That's what it's SUPPOSED to be!
Or to put it another way, more on-the-head, it would be like a bloke joining the workforce at a, say, fabric arts and crafts store, and then complaining that by and large, he feels nonincluded because the company events run more towards crocheting contests, sparkling apple juice and East Enders gossip and less about Time Lords, beer and, I dunno, whatever the UKian steretoypically masculine version of a monster truck rally is. (Caber tossing? I dunno, you pick.)
So, yes. All the women who stormed out of that event have every right to complain that they weren't equally represented, because the entertainment provided made no effort to cater to them equally by providing male dancers. For that matter, any gay men in the audience have that same right to complain. But complaining about the fact that titillation was part of the entertainment at all, well... Sure, you can do that. But it's a step towards the beige room of watered-down, perfectly-neutral, politically-supercorrect boredom, blandness, Elevator-from-Ipanema Muzak soundtrack, plain sameyness.
The misogynists in this thread (specifically anyone who invoked the phrase "feminiazis") are disgusting,
I will happily live with the label "disgusting"; after all, Aqualung is my favourite Jethro Tull album :-) However, I cannot let your mischaracterisation of "mysogynist" pass.
Recently, one James Ritchie was elected unopposed to the position of Women's Officer on the UTas campus. Note that ~60% of students at UTas do not possess any Y chromosome(s).
The feminazis forced this young man, who was attempting to fight discrimination against women, to resign. Thus, there being no feminazis (or even normal women) sufficiently interested in the position, leaving no-one to represent women's interests on the SRC.
So, who are the misogynists? The feminazis or a young man who sincerely wanted to see more egalitarianism on campus. (Note my use of a non-sexist term here).
You further state:
Yes, a woman who joins a workforce has every right to be free of sexual harassment, to not be creeped upon or dismissed because of her gender; she has every right to expect equal pay and equal treatment, to expect that her fellow workers will not make inappropriate remarks about her or gossip about her or level expectations upon her that they would not level upon a coworker who is a man, simply because she is a woman.
Why should none of this apply equally to men? I'm continually amazed, not by the sexism expressed here, but by the apparent inability to see that it's sexist.
Equality does not exist - and would be a disaster if it did. Diversity subtracts value.
Many men enjoy watching women and girls dance; some women enjoy watching men and boys dance. So long as participation is voluntary I see nothing wrong with it.
And to Hell with the idea that any individuals deserve respect much less freedom from humiliation or insult, and screw the idea that groups of people, self-defined or otherwise, have rights or even matter.
Let's have more dancing girls!
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