So, there's not that many women in IT, but surely thats their career choice. How many male nurses are there in hospitals? bet not as many as women. Well duh.
The European Union has totted up all the IT jobs in the region for 2014 and this is what it found: nearly eight million ICT pros employed in the 28 member states and more than 80 per cent are men. They are also well-educated, with more than half completing tertiary education. Techies occupied just 3.7 per cent of all jobs - “a …
"How many male nurses are there in hospitals?"
Just 10% of nurses in the UK are men, and most of those are foreign (Filipinos usually where they have a much higher percentage of male nurses). So that is half the percentage of women in IT, yet precisely no-one is banging a drum about it or setting up initiatives to combat why men feel nursing is not a career for them.
I have actually seen an ad trying to get more men into nursing. (This was in California). Though I suspect it was more driven by a shortage of nurses in general at the time, not specifically because anyone cared about the gender disparity.
If there is an IT shortage, I suppose it makes sense to try and get more women for the same reason. But it should be done in an intelligent, realistic way, not by arbitrarily calling the lack of women a problem and insinuated that the current, mostly male IT workers are to blame.
But there are schemes to encourage men into nursing, so stop repeating the same tired old stories. You can repeat the "women clearly never want to do STEM" all you want but evidence proves it's not true.
Gender Discrimination and Nursing: Α Literature Review
Nursing remains a predominantly female field in 2012, although the number of men in nursing has increased. About 7 percent of nurses are men, according to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Gender equality cuts both ways in nursing; men are both more likely to succeed in certain areas of nursing and less likely to be hired in others. Male nurses earn higher salaries overall, but more women work part time than men, which impacts both their earnings and their promotion potential.
Mountford was assigned to a midwife in a doctor’s practice, where he found objections came from other professionals rather than the women he was supposed to be caring for. “The GPs there just weren’t keen on having a man doing it, so I was sent to be assistant to another midwife in a community hospital.
When I took my son to a Uni open day a coujple of years ago we first encountered a group of other prospective midwifery students being taken to their talks - they were 100% female. Then we had a general intro talk with students from several courses holding open days that day after which poeple for each course we sent off to their seperate subject talks etc - first to go was "media and communications" - again 100% female. Eventually it was just the engineers left ... well not quite 100% male but getting pretty close.
While I agree to a large extent, part of the article is about the "nature v nurture" debate - just how much do we influence the choices in later life by the directions we set in earlier life?
There are many great parents who allow their children freedom. But even in the liberal UK there remain local cultures and communities (and I mean old fashioned British) that view males and females differently. How do we make them equal everywhere from birth?
@Tezfair This same point is made in various ways throughout this thread. It is simply a way of justifying the status quo. Middle class, middle aged men - and I am one - are perhaps incorriglble but psychological and social barriers are at play here. And the best way to dismantle these barriers is to start with children
"And the best way to dismantle these barriers is to start with children"
There you hit a problem... No amount of "You Can Be Anything You Want" propaganda at schools over the past say.. 2-3 decades has delivered any real results in this matter. And it's not as if , in any western European nation, a school that explicitly or implicitly promoted gender bias would be allowed to live very long. Especially the ones that are preparing kids for a higher education, like IT.
This is compounded by well over two decades of Preferential Hiring practices, which as the numbers show, still haven't had any real result.
You'd be stupid to go in IT as a woman.. Especially if you're competitive and career-minded. Not when the corporate world offers a career in HR. Why join the tussle for Pasha, when you can be the Grand Visier, and one that's considered Hard To Replace as well?
You really do not get it. IT is a great field for introvert computer geeks, for everyone else not so much. Biology plays a huge role ie there is a world of difference between making a deposit and having to carry that result of the data extraction from the deposit and it's conjunction with a living data repository, for nine months and then providing additional sustenance and data through to self sustenance.
This produces in the majority inherently different traits, logical genetic traits, ignoring those is stupid. Even in university the difference is profound, spend time in the psychology area of the schools and you are exposed to the intense vagaries of many emotions being shared and expressed, an intense cacophonous interaction of human psyche's.
In contrast got to the IT areas of a university and it because a place of peace and calm, only intermittently interrupted by first year 'this a computer' students. The difference is huge and one kind of student is attracted to one environment (those logically more suited to the intense socio emotional interactions with children) and the other environment suits those who simply do not need to socialise as much, who in fact tend to avoid intense social interactions.
Such is life, of two sexes, one the sacrificial donor and the other the carrier and rearer (whether it be a bug or fish or mammal, one sacrifices and the other nurtures and those different roles produce different genetic outcomes to support those roles, in the majority).
>You really do not get it. IT is a great field for introvert computer geeks,
This I almost agree with. But unless the gene for being an introverted geek is specific to the Y chromosome, then introverted computer geeks comes in all karyotypes, gonads, phenotypes and genders.
>In contrast got to the IT areas of a university and it because a place of peace and calm,
Out in the real world, IT can be a little more turbulent and social interaction important.
>Such is life, of two sexes, one the sacrificial donor and the other the carrier and rearer
And now we've hit outright sexism. You can be a carer and a nurturer, too.
Smart women are pressured out of science and engineering and into well paid professions that don't consider them too old at 30?
Women medical students have outnumbered men for years and as they graduate and old men retire the number of women doctors will outnumber men in the next 1-2 years.
Teaching is becoming women only. Law is about 40% women but proportion of female law students is increasing faster.
It has been my good fortune to work with many smart women in IT, some of whom have had more than one 29th birthday.
Certainly our industry has a few misogynists, dinosaurs and the occasional dickhead. And some of these have Y chromosomes. But I do not recognise IT as a particularly female-unfriendly place nor one with an age bias (unless you think the preponderance of elderly COBOL programmers is reverse-ageism).
Try getting hired in silicon valley with a grey beard,
I think ageism is the major cause of fewer women rather than outright sexism.
Increasingly you need a postgraduate degree to be considered at the hot big companies, so you start your career nearer to 25. If it's harder to get a job after 35 and any break means your experience of last years hot technology is obsolete - then it's a lot harder to take a couple of years out to have children than it would be in medicine or law.
The same thing happens in academia, it's often said that a PhD+postdoc costs you your first born child - but at least once you get a permanent job you don't have quite such a ticking clock.
Men probably account for <1% of nail technicians and only about 10% of primary school teachers are male.
Another couple of outrageous statistics are
1) 100% of natural human fathers are male.
2) 100% of natural human mothers are female.
Honestly, when I hear PC shit like this I can half understand why people listen to Donald Trump as an antidote.
Can you explain how one's genitalia affect one's ability to work in IT? Do you use an exotic form of 2FA where you plug your penis into a USB port in order to log in? (What I'm calling the "bell end reader".) Does code only work if it's written in sperm?
>Honestly, when I hear PC shit like this I can half understand why people listen to Donald Trump as an antidote.
I really shouldn't be so combative. But...
Is there some rule or impediment or anything that prevents girls from studying this subject and finding a job in the industry? I am not aware of any such impediment, and near as can be determined, girls are actually encouraged more than boys to study STEM subjects.
The general consensus is that girls don't like these subjects. Having worked in this industry for more years than I care to remember, I don't blame them.
What is truly a shame is that The Register appears to now be taking an SJW politically correct approach to this type of issue. It's a sad day in the IT world.
I had to check the address when I read this article, I thought I had stumbled onto the Guardian or some "men haters weekly" magazine. This is the kind of PC rubbish I expected when I read about the regs new years resolutions. It is good to see that the commenter's know better
@ Brewster's Angle Grinder
After reading your comment I have decided to try and bring you to a realisation. You seem to be telling me that the Guardian and "men haters weeklies" are not the same, on the condition we exclude one of the most prominent men hater weekly writers of the Guardian.
I think you are clinging to a hope that the Guardian is sane while stating the proviso that its insane ramblings are excluded. Hell using that justification we could call a duck a fish as long as we exclude enough of its most prominent features.
You've got to look at the proportions. There are always a few bad apples who have to be excluded. I won't judge 1.6 billions Muslims on the basis of a few violent twats or every male IT worker on the basis of El Reg commentards. El Graun has a stable of feminist columnists some of whom advance women's causes. Elsewhere in the media you can find columnists who advance men's causes. It's free; go where you like. (And don't blame feminists or SJWs for the closure of Nuts.)
But El Graun is a million miles from the radfem extreme. I would link to some posts but I recoil from dipping into that horrible, corrosive cesspit. Even, JV, who I haven't read in months, is speaking to an American audience, rather than a British one. I just wish she would stop fighting for an easier life for herself and start fighting for equality.
You know what, just because you believe something it doesn't make it a consensus. That takes evidence. The attitude that this is the way it is because girls and women don't like nasty technical tough is lazy, and selfish because you're just saying "I don't have to do anything, assess my behaviour or my working environment or -God forbid - even change your behaviour or environment. And thus propagate the status quo.
If your (incorrectly held) belief were true than the number of women in any technical IT/engineering field would be pretty much consistent across the world. Evidence (included in this article and this one :http://www.engineeringuk.com/View/?con_id=145) show regional differences within Europe, ever wonder why there is a statistically significant difference between apparently similar countries? Perhaps the women in Greece are biologically different to those in Sweden? Or perhaps the education system, peers, parental attitude, work environment and depiction of role models might possibly have an influence?
That personal consensus of yours is looking pretty flaky
As a female in IT this does not surprise me in the slightest.
To get into IT you need a thick skin (whether male of female), and a willingness to work unsocial hours for little pay.
Then there's the culture. It's improving... or at least I've not seen some of the worst behaviour for a while. But without the self-belief to counter having my skills called into question because I'm female, my job role/position to be questioned (who did I sleep with) because I'm female, and a robust attitude to personal/unwelcome remarks and body contact.... I'd have been pushed out of the industry long ago. If not run away screaming.
> To get into IT you need a thick skin (whether male of female),
You can replace IT with almost anything and your statement remains true.
> and a willingness to work unsocial hours for little pay.
I can easily name occupations apart from IT where that is far worse.
Fun fact: every single male with two brain cells to rub together I ever talked to was unhappy about the low percentage of females in the tech sector (not only IT).
every single male with two brain cells to rub together I ever talked to was unhappy about the low percentage of females in the tech sector
Ahh, but they weren't unhappy enough to get themselves a job in marketing. Mind you it is IT's loss that there aren't more women, largely because IME women make better managers than men. With a few exceptions, women listen when other people talk, and they pick up the social cues that us blokes steam roller right across.
My experience of women managers is quite the opposite, I found that too many would attempt to use their sex to manipulate both upwards and downwards and if you didnt swoon at their attention they made life difficult for you via politics.
I have met an lot of bad male managers as well but at least they didnt require me to find them attractive, those males that found me attractive would take no for an answer and wouldnt bitch about me just because I turned them down.
I will add that in my experience many women were promoted to managers as they were unable or willing to do the job they were recruited for, bumping up to lower managers being thought a good way to stop them creating more problems than they solved.
"I will add that in my experience many women were promoted to managers as they were unable or willing to do the job they were recruited for, bumping up to lower managers being thought a good way to stop them creating more problems than they solved."
I think you'll find that's just 90% of middle managers, regardless of age, gender, or species.
Perhaps. But the males don't get to scream "sexual harassment" with a presumption that you're guilty if they are offended, which makes them more manageable.
Of all the incompetent techs I've worked with (and thankfully there have been very few) the worst was a woman on the networking team who was obviously promoted to make their quota numbers. She rarely offered an opinion at the opening of a debate, and the only one she held onto firmly was a horrible one about patching something that couldn't BE patched, yet senior management had accepted the risk because of the service model they chose. Still every time there was a special award for an IT Project, her name was on the list.
With a few exceptions, women listen when other people talk, and they pick up the social cues that us blokes steam roller right across.
Sadly, there are more than a few exceptions - and there does seem to be a class of female manager that finds it necessary out "out-bloke" the blokes.
It's horrible to behold. I don't stay long in a job when one of those turns up...
> "But how do we quantify the gender and cultural bias - parents and peers as well as school - that funnels clever girls in Europe away from STEM and into softer, lower-paid careers, as dictated by their arts and humanities degrees."
Not sure this is generally true, women are significantly more than half of medical graduates and most doctors will be women soon despite the historic bias.
It is IT and engineering specifically, rather than sciences generally that women don't like.
.... maybe giving girls different role models could help?
It's not parents alone, we live in a society where media are everywhere and they promote just one type of woman - the one you can sell better. Then they are true hypocrites when they complain about how few women are in jobs outside the standard media female stereotype.
I have no problem with any sex working in a techinical capacity so long as they are capable and willing to do the work. Sadly far more women are employed in computing/electronic since it became IT than are capable or interested in the work.
Equality is in actuality self evident, the majority of women choose not to work in this field as they have more options and less interest in this area.
How about instead of paying people to shout about jobs with less women they have to first investigate how many apply and are sucessful in the field as a percentage of total applications. The truth is that an equally qualified and interested female has a better chance of getting an IT job than their male counterparts when you examine how many bother to apply.
The IT Game is a man's world. That doesn't mean women can't do the job, they can, but many are not comfortable in the shark tank. Therefore, they do not pursue this kind of job.
I once worked with a woman in IT, and she was treated like one of the guys. One guy we worked with was misogynistic and would make off color/sexist jokes in her presence. One day I asked her if he offended her, and she replied "not really, but, you don't want to know what we women say behind men's backs."
I think most people want to be with people like themselves. If people don't share your values then every decision becomes a negotiation and the losers harbour resentment or end up "at war" to defend their culture. That's an exhausting way to live.
TL;DR there won't be more women in IT till there are more women in IT.
I have been an IT professional for 35 years. I worked hard to encourage my daughter to follow in my footsteps since she was 2 years old. That lasted into the first year of college when she told me she didn't want to study computers and wanted to be an elementary school teacher. She is a wonderful and brilliant teacher I couldn't be happier. For my two younger sons I did not try to encourage them to go into the computer field but in college and grad school both changed their course of study to computer science.
Sorry I listen to this BS when I was younger.
An old fool.
My son can sing, I can't carry a tune in a bucket strapped to my neck... but I learned from my father that the son does as he wishes. My son is free to pursue any path he likes, but if IT is involved, I'm here for questions.
Good for her, the world is a bit short of good teachers.
Not any more.
It sounds like you are supporting both your daughter in her career choice and your sons in theirs. In my book that makes you a fine father, and I will not fault you for initially trying to encourage your daughter in a career you love.
May the peace of God and His Blessings be upon you and your family.
When I did IT at college all the students in my class were male. Surprisingly we had 3 female teachers and 3 male teachers.
Here's my experience of "positive" discrimination. A certain search engine was giving out free vouchers for women and minorities interested in coding. I'm south asian so I guess I counted as a "minority" right? WRONG! In the small print it said Chinese/Japanese/Indians can't apply or something along those lines. "Positive" discrimination is still discrimination.
"I'm south asian so I guess I counted as a "minority" right?"
Nope, afraid not. The term "minority" refers to carefully selected groups who are being exploited as tokens to advance an authoritarian social-Marxist agenda. In order to "benefit" from this kind of discrimination you have to be one or more of these tokens: female, black, and/or homosexual. Unless you are one or more of those three, you are "privileged" and therefore must be discriminated against at every opportunity.
I think Muslims are starting to be included in the PC token list, so you could try converting to Islam. Although that could get you put on a terrorist watch list or something. The media propagandists seem to inflame anti-Muslim sentiment even as they decry Islamophobia, whereas they are very unified and single-minded in pushing pro-feminist/pro-black/LGBT sentiment, so I suspect putting Muslims on the official protected-minority list is serving a different political agenda than the social-Marxist female-black-LGBT axis. Maybe encouraging social discord in order to get people to demand more freedom-destroying laws or something along those lines.
I haven't seen much female electrical engineers, or female chemical engineers, or mechanical engineers, and so on. Most women don't like engineering, I guess it is related to how their brains evolved to be inclined to adapt better to social aspects of life, and men evolved to adapt better to build and fix stuff.
Been a bit of a backfire here in Canada.
The women in science and engineering programs have been phenomenally successful so that a majority of new graduates in many areas are women.
They all were immediately hired by the mining and oil&gas industry.
Then oil and metals collapsed and the newest, least senior, least valuable employees are the first to be laid off. So a lot of young women that were encouraged to break the mold and embrace this demand for STEM are screwed.
Just like all the low grade Java-school bootcamp graduate programmers were in 2001 but this is making news because these victims are a lot more photogenic.
I've been an IT manager. You ask "Where are the women in IT"?
First, there aren't that many women with IT education and/or experience to begin with.
Second, people in IT are usually fairly young. And young women quite often want a family and leave on pregnancy leaves.
Third, IT is a fast moving profession. Women out on a year's pregnancy leave have to be re-educated upon return... An expense firms don't want, though they won't admit it.
Fourth, even if there were more women with an IT experience, I doubt they would remain in IT jobs.
I have seen few women working in IT, and I think that there should be an equal number. I would also like to see them retire at the same age (now), work on the slaughterhouse killing floor, like men do, empty cess pits, like mine do, work as miners, like men do. Come on feminists, you go first! What do you mean you don't want THAT type of equality!?
Not every fucking industry is going to have a 50/50 split of men and women. It's a well known fact men and women like different things - whether a result of culture or upbringing is irrelevant.
It would be lovely to get more girls in the IT dept, but lets not get ahead of ourselves and make a big thing about it. It has nought to do with sexism in the industry or anything like that. Women in general tend to be less interested in tech. It's THAT simple.
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