XBox is high
Must be the yoofs checking on their welfare benefits.
Windows 10's market share growth slowed in November, according to the two tracking outfits The Register has tracked for the last couple of years. But a new source of desktop OS share data has Redmond's latest doing rather better. The oldies – Netmarketshare and StatCounter Global Stats – first. Netmarketshare has Windows 10 …
Information collected by the government? Obviously this is all part of the damage limitation exercise and softening us up to the idea that US internet data gathering is actually a lovely beneficial freedom-enhancing thing, if we let them get away with that the probes are only a short step away!
No point being AC ever since the dentist planted that tracker last year.
another Research report that will say that W10 is gonna take over the world by 2016 or 2017 or ....
and that W10 Mobile will be the only mobile OS by 2018.
At some point MS might get the message that this is not the OS we the users want.
Quite when that will be is anybody's guess.
Except that it's doing rather better than OSX or linux, isn't it?
Amazing how you - specifically you - always manage to focus on the "poor" performance on Windows and somehow overlook that other OS's performance is orders of magnitude lower.
Nice pie chart though. Gave me a small "ChromeOS ruling the world? You'd think so from trolls on the Register" moment.
It would have been the OS that * this* user wanted.
Except that the devil is in the details.
There's so much about it that I absolutely hate.
Settings that are spread all over the place, often hidden for no good reason. (Even FFS creating a restore point.)
Non-removable apps imposed upon us.
Clumsy start menu that is difficult to organise into groups or folders, punctuated with those apps.
Adverts that can't be opted our from.
(And of course the pretty much unlimited skimming of users data)
We're also a little bemused by the fact Windows Server 2003 makes Uncle Sam's lists, but other versions of Windows Server do not
This might actually be 64 bit XP systems. They would report a 5.2 kernel, which the stats tracking might be mapping to Server 2003. What was marketed as 64 bit XP was basically 64 bit Server 2003 with the Themes service set to auto-start.
An alternative theory:
W7 is pretty easy to pirate and turn into a fully legit version of W10 and a lot of these are probably test (ho hum) installs.
As Gates classically said "As long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."
And boy does W10 collect, it collects just about everything you do with it's nicely named “Connected User Narking* and Telemetry Service”
*For those unlucky enough to live in America, this is an old British slang word for spying and reporting, for example a "Copper's nark".
It's actually spelled "Narc" because you were a Narc if you worked for the "Narcotics Department" as a detective or informant.
Really starts common usage in the late 1950's. Later became common to refer to anyone who blabbed to the authorities about anything as a Narc.
>Really starts common usage in the late 1950's. Later became common to refer to anyone who blabbed to the authorities about anything as a Narc.
Nope, in the UK:
Word Origin and History for nark
1859, "to act as a police informer" (v.); 1860, "police informer" (n.), probably from Romany nak "nose," from Hindi nak, from Sanskrit nakra, which probably is related to Sanskrit nasa "nose" (see nose (n.)). Sense and spelling tending to merge with etymologically unrelated narc (q.v.).
Americans, they think they invented the world.
I had a look at the data, and here's the number in a nice summary table sorted by rank:
Windows 56.76%
iOS 16.50%
Android 15.08%
Macintosh 9.08%
Chrome OS 0.96%
Linux 0.72%
Windows Phone 0.44%
(not set) 0.29%
BlackBerry 0.14%
Nokia 0.01%
Samsung 0.01%
SymbianOS 0.00%
Xbox 0.00%
It's fascination that even on what we would assume to be a stodgy set of web sites as these, Windows is barely over half.
Here's some other ways of looking at the data:
Desktop versus mobile
Desktops 67.53%.
Mobile 32.18%.
By vendor
Microsoft 57.20%
Apple 25.58%
Linux kernel 16.76%.
Microsoft's influence has shrunk hugely, while for everyone else their increased penetration has been mainly via phones and tablets. It really shows that people who still think mainly in terms of the desktop are looking at a vastly shrunken part of the picture.
Although ChromeOS only has 1% that is quite a fast growth considering how long the other operating systems have been about. ChromeOS only got released around end 2009 / start 2010 and the first available hardware was only around 2011. So ChromeOS has grabbed 1% market share in just 4 years.
I am not advocating the ChromeOS is in anyway the best of the best and it has its own problems but overall I kind of like it. The only thing missing for me is desktop streaming for things like games and/or software on windows computers that is not available as a native chrome app.
Something like Steam in-home streaming (not just for games you know) would benefit the ChromeOS family quite a bit if there was a Steam client for the ChromeBook (without needing to install Linux in a rooted container)
- S.A
>> Linux kernel 16.76%.
I love how you claim the android stats to make Linux look relevant :-) But I'm not sure why you stopped short of adding the other billion embedded devices that have a Linux kernel to claim first prize. Other commentards have blamed MS for wanting to do the same thing and inflate their mobile numbers by calling them all "Win10". Still, if it allows you to drive their ~85% (desktop) number down to 56% by combining them, then carry on. (i.e. no-one cares one way or another)
A non-techie friend complained that everyone in her oldies photographic class are now running W10 on their laptops. She finds that people's demonstration screen displays are looking very alien to her - so should she upgrade to W10 to stay in step?
I explained the pros and cons (are there are any pros?). She emphatically decided to stay with W7 - but asked if I can do something to remove the annoying W10 pop-ups on her laptop and desktop PCs.
> Anything measurable? Or is that according to the release docs?
Performance is definitely up on 8.n, just as 8.n was a significant upgrade on 7. I don't have two identical machines to run metrics on but boot, application opening, application closing, you name it, it's quicker. It's also smaller on disk.
Functionality has minor improvements over 8.n (unless you're the type to vomit at the sight of tiles in which case they're vast improvements over 8.n) largely related to little usability tweaks like multiple file-copy dialogs with accurate timers, a Task Manager that actually kills tasks when told to without killing explorer.exe every damn time and better controllability from an administration point of view.
Like I said, nothing anyone here would care about.
Performance is definitely up on 8.n, just as 8.n was a significant upgrade on 7. I don't have two identical machines to run metrics on but boot, application opening, application closing, you name it, it's quicker. It's also smaller on disk.
The next version of Windows normally does appear faster (except vista). This is due to one of the following:
- A newer computer.
- The previous "faster" version was bloated.
- With Windows, a fresh install is always faster than a 6+ month one.
- More smoke and mirrors (lazy loading, less boring animations)
- The adverts say so.
But guess what? My old XP VM boots faster and responds better than my fresh Windows 10. Same hardware.
Functionality has minor improvements over 8.n
Yet still a lot of features that we miss from 7.
multiple file-copy dialogs with accurate timers
Behold! After 30+ years of OS development they've finally cracked it!
Like I said, nothing anyone here would care about.
Personally, I care about getting my job done with minimal fuss from the tools I use. Then there's the privacy issue - and if they must invade my privacy in order to provide these extra features I didn't ask for, then they can piss right off!
If they're giving it away for free, then you are the product. (Without me realising it, I could be paraphrasing you)
I'm sure that your XP VM does boot faster than Windows 10.
I'd also wager that my copy of Windows 95 would kick the shit out of your XP machine.
I'm piloting a new Windows 10 image to be deployed to about 10,000 seats via SCCM. Part of the build process is to use benchmarking tools for boot up - used it successfully to persuade management that the extra money spent on SSD's for new kit is worthwhile, and had the data to backup my claim.
I can assure you, that compared to Windows 8.1, Windows 8 and Windows 7 the boot time, and the time to desktop is vastly improved on Windows 10 - should those things matter to you.
Overall, I find Windows 10 to be a rather nice upgrade from Windows 7. The UI is remarkably similar to Windows 7 (things are in the same places - e.g. desktop, start button, start menu, context, Windows explorer etc.) other than the default colour is different.
I can't say I understand the complaints about the telemetry. I work in the pharmaceutical industry, so compliance and auditing is VERY high up on our list. Everything can be disabled via GPO, so from a business (or at least from an enterprise) point of view it's a non-issue. I wouldn't dream of deploying a new OS without a few months of in-depth testing and ensuring anything new is manageable centrally, and then configuring those settings.
Consumers, I can see why some people are pissed off - but again the vast majority can be disabled. Microsoft have a pretty good track record on using telemetry for just that - data sent to MS is error reporting, usability and feature related, as opposed to sending everything for marketing and profiling. But again, where compliance allows it I've always set my devices to send detailed errors to Microsoft as I'd rather they fix the issues than me simply moaning about it online.
- The UI is changed enough to call is an upgrade, but if you were to change the colour of the theme and remove the tiles from the start menu then it's essentially the same as previous releases of Windows.
- It's faster than previous (but modern) release of Windows.
- There's security improvements over it's previous releases
- Better support for 3rd party devices
- Additional features over previous releases (some excellent, some not relevant to me at all)
- Consumers will get all security patches, so all "IT experts" that thought it was a good idea to disable granny's automatic updates can fuck off and make the internet that little bit safer
- Built-in apps have improved massively. (Still some are rough, but vastly improved over previous releases)
Really not too sure why there is a so much hatred for Windows 10 in these forums. There's loads of rough edges (Microsoft Edge, inconsistent settings UI), but no more than I've seen in other versions of both Windows, but other platforms and large applications including from other developers.
I understand the privacy implications, and personally I think MS really should have made each privacy option crystal clear about what it does, and that users must opt-in to each one. That aside I think it's one of the better Windows releases, and so far appears to be a reasonable replacement to Windows 7.
It's the fashion of smug pricks who comment on the Register. You can always tell them by their own particular reality distortion fields.
Those who claim Apple's market capitalization makes them somehow more relevant to the world than any other tech company.
Those who think Google can do no wrong.
Those who are convinced that the PC is dead despite overwhelming evidence (and they're usually posting from a fucking PC).
Those who use terms like "M$" or "Microsloth" or "Slurp" and talk about fading relevance in a world where phones haven't taken over, Windows still sells for actual money, people buy PCs every day and Microsoft make more money than you could ever even dream of.
I use debian at home, it's fine for me but it's not fine for everyone. I don't dislike Windows, I use it at work. It's okay. I have an Android phone. I love the phone but the OS is frankly insecure dogshit, more like Windows ME than anything one would regard as acceptable today.
Nobody is going to take your OS of choice away. Use it, enjoy it. But don't pretend you're personally "winning" anything. First, nobody gives a fuck about you. Second, the numbers are there for those who aren't blind and those numbers say you're at best wishful thinking and at worst pissing in the wind. So lay off the pointless propaganda. All it does is make linux loyalists (like me) embarrassed by you.
"It's the fashion of smug pricks who comment on the Register. You can always tell them by their own particular reality distortion fields."
Yeah, they always bang on about how good the latest pile of Microsoft shit is, despite all evidence to the conrtary, the smug pricks...
> convinced that the PC is dead despite overwhelming evidence (and they're usually posting from a fucking PC).
You are confused. The 'Death of the PC' does not refer to usage, but to declining sales#. Any PC made in the last 10 years is 'good enough'* so the refresh cycle that used to be ~3 years is now stretched out to double or triple that, which gives a greater reduction in sales than any growth in new customers. Also, more users are switching to laptops, tablets and phones as more convenient. The desktop may not get thrown out, but it is getting a decreasing percentage of computer usage.
# PC makers and their paid analysts do not care whether products are used, they only care about sales and revenue.
* partially because Windows gets faster with each new version - the reverse of what happened between 95 and Vista.
I'm piloting a new Windows 10 image to be deployed to about 10,000 seats via SCCM.
Well be interesting to hear whether the enterprise deployment friendly features included in the latest release of Win 10 are really helpful, or not...
But I don't see the rush to go to Win 10; but then a few years back there was a pharmaceutical company who's CTO thought he worked for Microsoft and the whole purpose of his company was to be a MS beta site...
The project started over a year ago to migrate the last few hundred XP boxes to the latest platform, but the amount of work involved in the discovery and planning phases was enormous. Biggest problem was around legacy applications that were old when originally deployed about 5 years ago. These are niche / industry specific applications, some win32, some web based that are poorly written.
Spent a lot of time sourcing new versions of the product and doing upgrades at the backend (as you know from the same industry, each one has to be QA's and validated too which can take months...!)
Whilst we waited I took the opportunity to essentially rebuild the AD domain partition with a new root OU and created a new structure from there, including consolidating the GPO's - which were nearly 900 - into about 2 dozen which took me to Q1 this year.
Seemed silly to push ahead with Windows 8.1, which whilst I don't mind it, I think the users will be happier with Windows 10 (I think there's a smaller learning curve from XP/7 to 10 compared to XP/7 to 8.1). About 3,000 devices will be purchased new as replacements due to hardware lifecycle as well.
Outside of IT, the rest of the business won't be seeing the image until at least the latter part of Q1 2016, more likely Q2. By that point Windows 10 has had at least 9 months of use in the wild - so seemed daft to push on with deploying Windows 8.1 really.
Our development team are working on "Apps" for BI content in particular that will be pushed out via SCCM as a side-loaded application, as well as being accessible in the business store. Company seems quite keen on that for some reason, but this is driven more by BI that by anything else.
Will let you know how the deployment goes!
"Really not too sure why there is a so much hatred for Windows 10 in these forums"
I can tell you why I think Windows 10 sucks and represents a degradation from Windows 7 pretty easily. While some things are improved over Win 7, those improvements are pretty marginal. (Exactly zero of the new features like Cortana, etc., have any value to me so they don't enter into my thinking). In exchange for those, we get full-on degradation of much of the rest of the Windows experience: The start menu blows now, search is inexplicably even worse than it is with 7 (and it's bad in 7), there is a widespread loss in control over the computer you supposedly own (can't control updates, can't disable telemetry, etc.), we're stuck with a crazy "rapid release" cycle that ensures the OS will always be in flux, and will always be buggy, etc.
Basically, Win 10 is trying to make Windows on the desktop work like mobile devices, but the desktop is a radically different environment for which the mobile ways are wholly inappropriate.
To summarize, my problem with 10 is that it involves a serious loss of control over my computer. Also, although this is a bit of a side comment, Microsoft's responses to these complaints have also pretty much destroyed any hope I had that they had turned over a new leaf. This is the new Microsoft, same as the old Microsoft.
JohnFen
This is my view also. I'm not one of the Windows/Microsoft haters. ( Have a virtual pint)
I even have a Win phone that I'm happy with, too.
But 10! With all the strange design decisions that make managing my PCs much less intuitive and far more complicated I am coming to hate it. There is no reason, for example, to stop users dragging start menu links into folders of their own choice. Or to make moving the MS built in "apps" entries in the start menu completely unmovable. That just smacks of spitefulness. As does the way the descriptions of updates don't say anything.
It does actually feels spiteful in these implementations.
"but asked if I can do something to remove the annoying W10 pop-ups on her laptop and desktop PCs."
1. Download and Run GWX Control Panel - [Source: http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ ]
This will tell you the state of her Win 10 update and give her the option to "Disable 'Get Windows 10' App" and "Disable Operating System Upgrades in Windows Update", I wouldn't bother with the others unless you are running low on free HDD space, this will require a reboot. But now her PC's will still be receiving automatic Windows security updates, just not the Win 10 upgrade ones.
2. Depending on your aversion to MS collecting telemetry from the PC's there are a couple of options available to you:
i) Scorched earth: Download and run Destroy Windows 10 Spying - [Source: https://github.com/zeffy/Destroy-Windows-10-Spying/releases ]
The disadvantage of this one is that it disables Windows updates, so you will have to manually apply critical updates...
ii) No uninstalls: Follow the 8 step instructions in the "Manually disabling Telemetry through settings (Windows 7, 8, and 8.1)" section of this article
<http://superuser.com/questions/972501/how-to-stop-microsoft-from-gathering-telemetry-data-from-windows-7-8-and-8-1>. Additionally, you may also want to follow the instructions in this article <http://windowsitpro.com/windows-10/how-turn-telemetry-windows-7-8-and-windows-10 > and disable the Diagnostics Tracking Service.
iii) Probably sufficient / What you can expect a non-IT user to do: Follow the first 3 steps in the "Manually disabling Telemetry through settings (Windows 7, 8, and 8.1)" section of the Superuser article which effectively disables the CEIP.
I've adopted the actions 1 and 2 iii) listed above and operate a wait and see what happens/changes policy.
... and the mild amusement derived from working the anti-MS contingent up into a lather, what is the point of this month-by-month reporting on Win10 adoption?
The overwhelming majority of windows users either don't know or couldn't give a fuck what version they are using. Some will decide to accept the upgrade, others wont. Others will start using it when it comes preinstalled on their new PC. Why do we have to project our interest in IT onto people who couldn't care less, and dream up conclusions about the numbers are or aren't telling us?
A serious question for the ones who know. I have to buy a new laptop due to imminent death of my current one. I spend some time overseas during which I connect to the internet to use webmail and to generally just get on with my work.
Sometimes it will be through a wifi router but sometimes it will be through a local 3g dongle which is a fuckload of cost per mb up/downloaded.
I would be in the 'pleb; range of user, not the enterprise type so what is my options to disable automatic updates, telemetry data etc as this uses up valuable data in terms of cost and time. As I understand, it is not possible unless you just don't go online which is not what I am after.
Additionally, what is my redress when some pointless mandatory update makes my pc refuse to boot / refuse to work with the specific software I use ( Structural design and heat loss analysis along with basic CAD etc )
Please, no irrelevant comments on using Linux /Apple etc as I have specific SW that will only work on Windows ( I have used a lot of Linux disro's in the past and will be having a play with some of the latest ones as soon as I have some more time but this is independent of my work pc's )
Good point as Microsoft's Volume License Programme is really for business'es with 5+ users/systems, so not really appropriate for micro businesses (1~5 people). So obtaining a copy of Windows 10 LTS could be expensive and problemmatic.
Given the imminent death of your existing laptop, my advice would be to focus on this immediate need to keep your business running and invoicing!
Hence, if it is running Win7/8 Pro, simply buy a new system with one of those OS's pre-installed - they are still good until 2020, when a highly travelled laptop will be due for replacement... If it is running XP life will be a little more complex, a stopgap is probably a good condition secondhand version of what you've already got - as you will already have a set of OEM recovery disks... once you've secured your business you can investigate the real costs etc. of moving to Win10.
Sorry,my comment was badly phrased, The laptop in question is only used for work when I travel, my main work PC is still good for a couple of years on W7. so it is not critical, I have sourced a few W7 laptops that have the grunt required and a proper screen, not the crap 1330 x 760 res ones but they will be in the £800 - £1000 range which is no problem but not what I want to spend until I really have to.
What I should have asked maybe is if there is any scope in being able to avoid this potentially expensive data transfer and risk of an unstable system when I eventually have to buy a new system and it is not possible to obtain anything other than W10.
What I should have asked maybe is if there is any scope in being able to avoid this potentially expensive data transfer and risk of an unstable system when I eventually have to buy a new system and it is not possible to obtain anything other than W10.
No !
The best (technical) solution would be to sign up to volume licensing as that would give you access to the long term servicing branch (LTSB) version of Windows 10. The LTSB version effectively gives you a stable platform for a couple of years before you will be 'encouraged' to upgrade to the new LTSB release.
[Aside: This short piece gives a quick over view - http://windowsitpro.com/windows-10/understanding-long-term-servicing-branch-and-current-branch-windows-10 ]
However, perhaps the way forward will be to plan to use VM's and hence move your expensive applications (in time to install etc. as well as financially) into one of these. Obviously, here you need to decide which VM image format, server and host OS you prefer.. The simplest (in some respects) is to stay with MS and use Hyper-V that MS bundles with Pro versions of Windows 8 and later...
A bit dangerous asking for advice on any Microsoft products here. You're likely to get lots of "I switched my nan over to *buntu to check her lotto numbers and she reckons its the badgers nadgers. Good old nan, she's never wrong..."
Your 3G connection will default to being a "metered connection" and you can set your Wi-Fi to metered as described here http://windows.microsoft.com/en-in/windows-10/whats-a-metered-connection
This will disable all of the background chatter like telemetry and auto-updates, plus things like email and file sync software working in the background (i.e. you will need to hit the manual sync buttons for any of this stuff to work over the metered connection)
Re: metered connection
This is a nice feature, first added in Win8 but is very very basic. As a frequent mobile/remote worker, I find MS's support for network and locale 'hopping' very weak and needing third-party applications to truly deliver useful functionality. Unfortunately, none of the other platforms I've investigated do it any better...
Whats wrong with basic
Well your answers sum it up quite well.
Firstly, it simply flags the interface as being "metered", with no opportunity to clarification what 'metering' might mean in the context of a particular network connection. Important, as I have different charge rates on my 3 and 4G services depending on the country I'm using them in...
Secondly, it reduces but does not turn off various background functions - currently I have a machine attached to my 'metered' WiFi downloading 156MB's of 'critical' Windows updates, if this had been attached to one of my 3 or 4G data services whilst roaming... £££ !
This is related to dynamically detecting your profile; it is simply another attribute to a network connection and location. However W10 has no unified concept of connection/location, which is a big problem given it is strongly targetted at mobile devices that will be used wherever, whenever with whatever communications service is available, by non-IT users. Hence we get location information scattered all over the place, rather than presented as a coherent whole which basic third-party tools such as IBM/Lenovo Access Connections do.
So far the main problems with XP have all been around web access and specifically mitigating SSL/TLS exploits and maintaining a current certificate store.
With MS releasing no security updates for XP, it is now only a matter of time before it is no longer able to access secure websites, at which point we can expect it's usage to rapidly decline. Given what has happened in 2015, it would not surprise me if sometime in 2016, XP becomes unusable for general internet access.
Otherwise, XP is proving to be rock solid...
If your running around on the interwebs with a totally unpatched OS, some miscreant breaking your weak SSL/TLS connection is the least of your worries. A bit like worrying about your hair thinning whilst being slowly digested inside a giant anaconda...
>> it is now only a matter of time before it is no longer able to access secure websites
Nah. Come on - harden up. Just click the "trust the untrustworthy certificate" button and party on!
Nah. Come on - harden up. Just click the "trust the untrustworthy certificate" button and party on!
That does work on some sites, however, things are getting more difficult with some (security aware) sites (typically vendors of security software) now only supporting connections using SSL/TLS services not natively supported in XP (ie. they've either been patched or configured to not use the compromised settings)... Also if you are a Chrome user, Chrome in some cases will block access to the site - it was Chrome, through a slightly misleading error message and total refusal to connect to a website (which Chrome on Win7 did access), alerted me to certain expired certificates in the XP certificate store...
Hence why I say it will be the Internet refusing to accept connections from XP clients, as it gets more security aware that will cause the demise of XP in the Internet usage statistic's.
I think lowest common denominators like SSL3 and RC4 will be around for a long time to come. Sure your bank will probably have them turned off, but many, many sites won't (why would they want to DoS their own customers just because they cant be bothered to secure themselves? They're not your mother).
If anyone is stupid enough to do their online banking from XP (assuming they still can), they will sooner or later have their bank account emptied, be unable to pay their ISP bill, and drop off the Internet. Just like Darwin predicted...
People still using XP should give themselves a good hard jab to the head, and then move to something that is supported instead of waiting for the web to get harder and harder to use.
Thanks for the response all. I can't afford to go on a volume licensing deal, I work as a sole contractor and I want to be earning money for myself not to support huge greedy multinationals. Also I have no faith whatsoever in MS changing their tactics again and leaving me out of pocket or with large costs. I am more than happy to pay them a fee for sensible working software as I do for my CAD and other specialist packages that cost several hundred pounds a year to maintain.
I have tried CAD in various VM configs before now but it has never been successful. Also have tried different CAD systems but as all my stuff is in DWG and DXF format I have found it difficult to find a system that just works.
May be I just have to retire early..
Isn't the problem you are trying to solve avoiding expensive bandwidth charges when you are travelling? I'm not sure that running virtualized graphics-intensive apps over those expensive connections is what you want to do. And forget volume licensing - it is for people that are buying licenses in, you know, volume. The cheapest tier would cost you more than the bandwidth. I would test metered connections before you travel to make sure it functions as expected...
May be I just have to retire early..
Nice dream :)
Trevor Pott did a piece a while back on Microsoft's lack of any real replacement to SBS 2011, wanting SME's to move into the cloud and specifically on to Office 365, but (MS) totally missing the fact that MS Office and Exchange whilst important, weren't the only applications such business'es ran...
It seems with Win10 MS have done similar for micro businesses and those who like you who are highly mobile. The stupid thing here is as I outlined, LTSB could be a very useful product to mobile workers, only MS are determined to only make it available at a price micro business'es will find hard to justify.
Hence it does look like maintaining a working toolset based on the MS Windows platform and using it in far flung places is going to become more problematic, time-consuming and expensive in the coming years...
Perhaps your preferred CAD and other specialist vendors will decide to port their applications to (the same) non-MS platform in the next few years, but I wouldn't bank on it.