DS5: Vive la différence ... oh, and throw away the Citroën badge

Oh, how car-makers like to mine their archive in the name of style. BMW’s Mini, VW’s Beetle, Fiat’s 500 ... all doff their caps to the style and nomenclature of an imaginary post-war automotive utopia. Citroën got in on the act back in 2010 with the resurrection of the DS marque. A few months ago to celebrate the DS brand's …

[0laf]

Citroen has always been able to produce some good looking cars.

However having been burned by French build quality in the past I'd be very wary of parting with my hard earned for one. Maybe if they copied the Koreans and bundled a 5 or 7 year warranty.

The 0-60 maybe isn't all that important but in gear acceleration is. Would be good if you could publish the 50-70 figures for cars. We don't all live next to a motorway and the ability to get past dawdlers is important for some.

£26-29k for a mid-sized French family hatchback! That's just crazy talk, sticking an Audi price tag on a Citroen isn't going to attract Audi drivers. Neither will the biblical depreciation this will have for the first couple of years.

Will they be setting up new UK dealers in the UK for DS models? Citroen dealers are a bit of a mixed bag, many are owned by big chains with a stack 'em high sell 'em cheap business model and less than stellar customer care.

Overall I don't dislike the car, needs more ponies under the bonnet for me and about 50% off the price. Might make a decent buy at 2yr old with an extended warranty.

[Anonymous Coward]

£26k-£29k...

..they are having a laugh. This is a middling, nothing exceptional, gutless, warmed over Citroen and should cost no more than £21k for the top-of-the-range spec. My experience with a Citroen in the past was not good either - endless electrical problems, bits falling off (internal trim, rear exhaust box) and when I had had enough it was worth bugger all on the used market after just 2 years and 8,000 miles.

[Known Hero]

Re: £26k-£29k...

Win some loose some.

I've not had any problems with my Citroen.

Ok maybe stuff has fallen off but it is 29 years old .......

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: £26k-£29k...

Yeah, that price seems very optimistic. It doesn't have half the features of new cars costing less.

I tried to configure it to be similar to my VW Passat (sure, it's not exactly a top of line car or marque) and I couldn't match it even though the price was now up to £33k. The Passat was much less.

If you're going to be charging top prices then you either need all the gizmos and features or you need to take all the features out and have a purist, high end, sports car.

[Known Hero]

The 0-60 maybe isn't all that important but in gear acceleration is. Would be good if you could publish the 50-70 figures for cars. We don't all live next to a motorway and the ability to get past dawdlers is important for some.

Very Valid point :) the icon is for you.

I love the fact the reviews here are not a top trumps style battle. It feels like a informative article, Wow don't get many of those nowadays !!!

[Anonymous Coward]

But only men having midlife crises and spotty 18-year olds worry about 0-60 times.

The 0-60 maybe isn't all that important but in gear acceleration is. Would be good if you could publish the 50-70 figures for cars. We don't all live next to a motorway and the ability to get past dawdlers is important for some.

The 0-60 time is important because it will also give you an idea what it will do in city traffic. The curse of "eco" has made city driving very unpleasant as thus-badged motorists drive as if they have a wet sponge tied to the gas and are trying to avoid spilling any water from it. Yes, Prius drivers, I mean you.

The reason they call a traffic light "red light" is because that is what is is most of the time, so when it emits that brief flash of green I want to be in a position to (a) use that and (b) not delay others from possibly going through green too. Maybe we need a 0-30mph figure.

[werdsmith]

The 0-60 time is important because it will also give you an idea what it will do in city traffic.

Haha. If you test the 0-60mph time of your car in city traffic then you will look like a complete dick. It truly is nothing more than a Top Trumps detail and of no use or interest to over 18yo drivers.

I don't think there is a car for sale that can't cope more than adequately with city traffic, but if you are looking for a car to bully your way around then you want some low rpm torque, because seriously you won't be going over 50 much.

Those Prius drivers are probably trying to stay on battery. City traffic driving is unpleasant regardless of the Prius frugals and the testosterone morons. Have you not noticed that if you drive at a normal sort of pace, then those plonkers that are trying to race ahead never actually are usually stay in sight for the entire journey? They never actually get very far. If you want to make progress, learn judicious lane choice.

[Bassey]

"Have you not noticed that if you drive at a normal sort of pace, then those plonkers that are trying to race ahead never actually are usually stay in sight for the entire journey? They never actually get very far."

Quite right and there is a very good reason for that. Despite appearances to the contrary (and the odd breakdown) traffic management is quite sophisticated these days. If you have a large, main stretch of city road with lots of traffic lights along it, the best approach is to accelerate very gently and then dawdle along. The timing of the lights along the stretch is designed to encourage this and, when done well, you'll often find the next set of lights turning green as you approach.

The people who design these systems have shown you get a lot more cars through that way than you do if everyone presses down as hard as they can with their right foot all the time. It also saves on fuel and pollutants.

[Anonymous Coward]

A case in point

being the East Lancs Road between Manchester and Liverpool.

I regularly drive the stretch from Manchester City Centre/A6 at Salford to the M6 at Haydock and if you maintain a constant 45-50 rather than rattling along at 60 where the limit allows you can get all the way along without being caught by the lights.

[Anonymous Coward]

>>the best approach is to accelerate very gently and then dawdle along.

I totally agree, if you come off the M25 at South Mimms (Anti Clockwise) and want to head north on the A1(M). Dawdling round the roundabout that will allow you to start accelerating before you hit the line and the lights will go green in perfect unison allowing you to get the jump on the BMW M3 or Merc sat at the line and be off down the slip road before they even realise it has gone green. (especially fun in my little 1.0)

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who design these systems have shown you get a lot more cars through that way than you do if everyone presses down as hard as they can with their right foot all the time. It also saves on fuel and pollutants.

Unless their name is Ken Livingstone and it's Sunday, of course. For a car hater like him he had a remarkably large amount of taxi expenses - I bet he's never even been near a bus other than for photo shoots.

Where I live we appear to have the opposite of a green wave - you have to choose between either 5 mph below the speed limit or 10 mph above to catch all the green lights in a row, decelerating only for the lights themselves as they are speed camera equipped (which is IMHO what motivated this setup).

I meant (as later stated) more the 0-30mph range, that is the in-city range (if you're lucky and it's not peak hour). In that case, I prefer to get up to speed soonest so that I do not hold up people behind me, and having a bit of power also means you need less space to join other traffic flows as it's quicker to match speed. I'm personally very partial to keeping a good flow because it's simply the most efficient way to get from A to B..

[Ciro]

Re: anonymous complaint about Ken Livingston

"Unless their name is Ken Livingstone and it's Sunday, of course. For a car hater like him he had a remarkably large amount of taxi expenses - I bet he's never even been near a bus other than for photo shoots."

I lived in a flat behind a bus stop near Willesden green for a number of years, and can assure you Ken Livingston was often to be seen queuing for the bus without a press camera in sight.

[bigtimehustler]

Perhaps, but wouldn't this also work if the traffic lights were set to take into account a faster speed? Again, it is all green/safety idiots causing frustration to the majority that don't buy into it. Its supposed to be a democracy, not whichever group shouts loudest gets its way system.

[Vic]

Perhaps, but wouldn't this also work if the traffic lights were set to take into account a faster speed?

No.

Traffic density falls off rapidly with speed - so if you tune for a higher speed, you get fewer cars getting through the lights in a given time period. That means more people sat stationary at red lights, so more traffic problems...

Again, it is all green/safety idiots causing frustration to the majority that don't buy into it.

No, it's engineers who have studied the dynamics of traffic flow and are trying to minimise commuters' aggravation.

Its supposed to be a democracy, not whichever group shouts loudest gets its way system.

And that is exactly why no-one is changing anything just because you've decided to shout loudly.

Vic.

[Jan 0]

> "the ability to get past dawdlers is important"

That sort of aspiration works in a country like Spain, but seems irrelevant in the UK.

It doesn't matter how good the 50 to 70 acceleration is, since the dawdlers are all sitting in the overtaking lane creeping past like an artic, with a 0.1 mph speed differential.

Sadly, overtaking is a forgotten art. It only works for bikers on siingle carriageways.

[Anonymous Coward]

That sort of aspiration works in a country like Spain, but seems irrelevant in the UK.

It doesn't matter how good the 50 to 70 acceleration is, since the dawdlers are all sitting in the overtaking lane creeping past like an artic, with a 0.1 mph speed differential.

I have often wondered if it wasn't better to adopt the "overtake from any side" idea they have in some other countries given the frankly *terrible* lane discipline of people in a number of EU countries (it's really not just the UK), but I fear it would make things worse because you would first have to teach these numpties to look both ways before changing lanes.

It does work, though, I've even survived that on a motorcycle in Thailand (no, proper +600cc, not a pizza noodle scooter), and I would not proclaim that location as having very safe traffic. Mind you, most of the challenges there are either high density of traffic, or a motorway suddenly ending and turning into dirt without a shred of prior warning. I still check the brakes first when I start any vehicle now, and I could teach Google cars a thing or two about spotting potholes :).

[Zog_but_not_the_first]

Meh!

When Citroën launched the DS it was revolutionary, jaw-dropingly different and slightly bonkers in a Gallic sort of way. It's a huge pity that car manufactures don't have the courage to try exciting new concepts like that any more. I know, I know: Accountants, financial expediency, global markets rule the game. All the games, actually which give us Hollywood films that "taste" like intellectual gruel.

I had hopes that the renaissance of electric vehicles might throw up some interesting products but even the Tesla is a sort-of E class with leccy motors.

[Unep Eurobats]

Re: Meh!

It surprises me that Renault have never revamped the 2CV. Or rebooted, maybe I should say. Now there was a distinctive vehicle.

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Meh!

The 2CV was Citröen as well. But Renault certainly had some classics in their heyday as well.

[Paul Westerman]

Re: Meh!

Renault 5 Turbo, perhaps?

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Meh!

How about an electric Renault 4? Should be plenty of space to put batteries in one of those.

My grandfather had one; gear stick in the middle of the dashboard, and a single front bench seat.

My cousin had cerebral palsy, and used to sit in the middle of the seat between my grandparents; somethings one of his arms would spasm and we'd get a sudden gearchange.

[Terry Barnes]

Re: Meh!

"It surprises me that Renault have never revamped the 2CV"

I'd imagine Citroen's lawyers might have something to say about that.

[Unep Eurobats]

Re: Meh!

Oops.

[Lars]

Re: Meh!

The CV2, the best "peoples car" ever, and surprisingly comfortable too. The problem is that those cars will not pass any modern crash tests to day. When people complain about the new Mini not being a Mini at all the reason is the same.

As for the Citroën DS, there is a nice story about the car here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzW_ERSgFRY

1971 Citroën DS - Jay Leno's Garage

[The entire Radio 1 playlist commitee]

"just look at the sweep of those A-pillars"

I would do if any of your pictures showed the car in profile.

[Electron Shepherd]

Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

My only small niggle is that the foot rest is just a little too high for my taste. I’ve noticed this on a few French cars. Are the French getting shorter?

It's more likely that the foot rest is positioned so that it's reasonably comfortable for both genders, bearing in mind that women tend to be a good few inches shorter than men.

[Zog_but_not_the_first]

Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

Are the French getting shorter?

Getting? Napoleon? Sarkozy?

Mine's the coat with the arm already in it.

[TeeCee]

Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

It's typical of French cars though. French manufacturers these days seem to have copied the cockpit dynamics of the Lamborghini Miura[1].

Not too long ago I evaluated a C5 as a fleet car. I adjusted the seat and wheel until I was perfectly placed. The seat was lovely too. Only problem was when it was set up like that I couldn't reach the gear lever. In order to actually change gear while driving without leaning forward each time, it was necessary to have my legs bent double under the dash.

[1] One of the world's most beautiful cars, but very obviously designed to be driven by a gibbon.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

Napoleon was about the same height as Nelson, and both above average for those days.

Kings and emperors liked to have tall guardsmen because they looked impressive - Prussian Frederick is said to have collected tall soldiers to keep around him. When you were on a horse, of course, you towered over them. But on foot, they towered over you giving the impression you were short.

[Irony Deficient]

Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

Voyna i Mor, Napoléon was 5′ 2″ 4‴ French (= 168.7 cm = 5′ 6″ 5‴ English), and Nelson was 5′ 5½″ = 5′ 5″ 6‴, making M. l’Empereur nearly an inch taller than The Right Honourable Viscount and 4.6 cm taller than the average Frenchman of his day; however, the Vice-Admiral was 1.9 cm shorter than the average Englishman of his day.

[Irony Deficient]

Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

Voyna i Mor, I’m not disputing that a one inch difference is “about the same height”; my disagreement is with your statement that Nelson was “above average” height. The origin of the statistic that I’d linked to was Floud et al.’s study Height, Health and History, which

was based on an analysis of changes in the heights of poor boys recruited by the Marine Society of London between 1770 and 1870, and of men who were recruited by the Royal Marines and the British Army between 1740 and 1914

If there were minimum height requirements to join the Royal Marines or the British Army between 1760 and 1800, then that would skew that source for average heights; those recruits were drawn from the general population, though.

Other data were also noted in that work, including Komlos’ average heights for convicts and indentured servants born in England and transported to North America, which were presented in a table (by decades of birth, 1710 – 1759). Since Nelson was born in 1758, the 1750s data would be of greatest relevance: the average height was 67.79 inches (172.2 cm) for transported convicts born in the 1750s and 66.88 inches (169.9 cm) for transported indentured servants born in the 1750s, with both groups being taller than the 168.2 cm average at that link and Nelson’s height of 166.4 cm.

The heights in my last comment were in feet, inches, and lines (pieds, pouces, and lignes in the French case) because Napoléon’s height was physically measured with those units, and using those units preserves the precision that they represent. Since no degree sign was present and the discussion was about height, I don’t know why you thought that angular measure was involved. Any interested party will be able to use a search engine to find conversion factors if needed.

Why would I comment on your nick? It’s not a Boolean statement like “Nelson’s height was above average”.

[Anonymous C0ward]

Oh please stop with your facts and figures

We're trying to take the piss out of the French here.

[Lars]

Re: Even the ladies are allowed to drive these days

Very interesting, do we know anything about the size, volume of their dicks, interesting, as we all know the relation between the size of the boobs education and intelligence, then again there is the arse, slightly confusing to me, right now, but do not despair, I have sent an e-mail to Trump, stay tuned.

Please give us a "half joke" icon.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Shows promise

I've not seen a DS5 up close but I've had a DS3 as a hire car a few times, and was impressed despite myself. Definitely a cut above the non-DS Citröen/Peugeot equivalents, in both quality and driving experience. It's no Audi, but as a Citröen++ it has a lot going for it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Shows promise

It's no Audi

.. and changing Audi prices for it is not going to make it one either..

[TeeCee]

Re: Shows promise

At least that means you can drive one without everyone else assuming you're a twat.

[werdsmith]

Re: Shows promise

Charging Audi prices for Audis is also pretty bloody cheeky in my opinion.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Shows promise

Audi prices...I believe you can get some quite big discounts on some models at the moment.

[Anonymous Custard]

Alien?

When I look at that image of the central console/gearstick area (the picture in the middle of page 2), am I the only one who gets an overwhelming sense/flashback of Alien?

[Anonymous Coward]

Meh...

The DS was a magnificent car, there was hardly a single part of the car that was 'normal' from the steering wheel to the suspension, to the headlights, the gear change , the crazy brakes, the user removable body panels... even today a DS will attract attention...

but this 'DS'... yawn just another boring box... doesn't deserve the name

[smudge]

Re: Meh...

At the end of the 70s I had a GS, which was their Escort-sized medium family runabout.

Hydropneumatic suspension, air-cooled flat four engine, spade-handle handbrake coming out of the dash, one-spoke steering wheel, radio mounted vertically between the front seats, streamlined boat-like underside with exhaust and brake pipes set into recessed channels, hatchback incorporated part of the rear bumper so you only had to lift stuff a few inches... I could go on.

Main drawback was that the near-horizontal rear window meant that the rear-seat covering was reduced to baked dust after a few summers' sun.

They don't make 'em like that any more!

[Benno]

Re: Meh...

I've just resurrected one of these with my father-in-law (actually a 'Break' or estate/wagon), and it's a fun little car to drive. It will happily motor along at 100km/h with very little road or engine noise (even though it's spinning at nearly 5000 rpm), and keep up with modern vehicles in traffic. Don't let the revs drop too much tough, or you'll be rapidly seeking a lower gear!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Meh...@smudge

Moi aussi. Terrible rust problems but the GS was a remarkably nice car to drive. Too right about the need to protect the rear from sunlight. Ours went all over the country on holidays and the one time it broke down was in the local Tesco car park, and that due to a bodge by a mechanic when the timing belts were replaced. I expected broken internals, but when I put it together properly myself it was fine and went on for another 30 000 miles till we bought a Diesel BX. Which I stupidly sold a few years later for a big Ford; the next owner kept it for 12 years and 140 000 miles.

[Vic]

Re: Meh...@smudge

Terrible rust problems but the GS was a remarkably nice car to drive

I always wanted a CX (still do, really) - but they rust even worse than the GS/GSA...

Citroen got themselves such a bad reputation in that era that they did something about it - when they produced the XM, they went to town on the rust-proofing. If you ever see a rusty XM, it's been in a crash.

Shame about the electrical build quality on them, though...

Vic.

[Paul_Murphy]

Re: Meh...

I have has 4 GSs (all estates) - the first one suffered from noisy tappets but the others were great. They could really do with ABS but otherwise too many features to mention that I miss; starting handle (surprisingly handy), inboard brakes that you would struggle to get wet, brake pedal at the same level as your right foot when driving, ability to take the engine out using a trolley jack and of course user-selectable height adjustment of the car - very useful for changing wheels and putting heavy loads in the boot.

I also swapped some engines and gearboxes around and got a 1300cc engine with the 4 speed box which I had loaded to the roof with wood and pulled away with no issues.

Shame about the rust and fuel economy really, a modernised version would certainly turn heads.

[Sporkinum]

Re: Meh...

I had a GS as well. Weird car, but definitely fun. 1lt motor, and loved the suspension (when it worked right). Suspension lever forward, you had 3 inches of ground clearance. Lever back, and and it seemed like you had a foot of clearance and could go off roading. The rear hatch was pretty cool, and if I remember correctly, it seemed like the boot was huge in proportion to the car.

The only thing that looks proper Citroen in the DS is the upholstery.

[Vic]

Re: Meh...

Main drawback was that the near-horizontal rear window meant that the rear-seat covering was reduced to baked dust after a few summers' sun.

Nah - main drawback was the 5-sided adjusters on the front brake calipers.

Vic.

[Harman Mogul]

Re: Meh...

As to the GS (and GSA), great car, but so noisy under acceleration, and hated damp weather. It also required mechanics of great skill, with plenty of time at their disposal, to keep in shape.

[Vic]

Re: Meh...

It also required mechanics of great skill, with plenty of time at their disposal, to keep in shape.

Definitely not.

I am by no means a skilled mechanic. I did alright.

The problem you find with the hydraulic Citroens is that every "professional" mechanic has a scare story, and if you try to get them to work on it, you'll get a lot of teeth-sucking, followed by an Enormous quote. But if you do the job yourself, you'll find that most of it[1] is fairly straightforward...

Vic.

[1] Bloody pentagonal brake bolts excepted, of course. Grrr.

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Meh...

Yes; the DS still turns heads everywhere you go. I've had mine since 1997 (she'll be 43 years old in February) and it's a joy to drive. You can tell by the arm movements of people on the pavement that they're trying to explain the suspension to someone else as you waft slowly past.

I've also had, at various times, three CXs (a series 1 prestige, series 2 GTi Turbo, which was a really fun drive, and a plain series 2), which were also magnificent cars. Some reckon they (and the SM) were the last "proper" Citröens, before the merger with PSA started to make everything irredeemably bland.

I do think it's odd to call something a DS when there's not a single bit of green hydraulic blood in its veins.

All that said, besides being a head turner, if you want to keep one a DS in good condition, they can also be something of a money pit.

Still, I wish, in styling terms, Citröen would do something as bold as the original. A few pics of mine here and here.

[Wensleydale Cheese]

Money pit?

"All that said, besides being a head turner, if you want to keep one a DS in good condition, they can also be something of a money pit."

But when compared to the depreciation incurred in buying a new car every 2-3 years, you've actually got quite a bit to play with.

[Sorry that handle is already taken.]

Re: Money pit?

But when compared to the depreciation incurred in buying a new car every 2-3 years, you've actually got quite a bit to play with.

"I could have made this other poor decision which justifies the one I did make"?

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Money pit?

@Wensleydale Yes, indeed. And though the fuel economy isn't great (about 27.5 on a long run at around 50mph), there's a certain merit in keeping a car going for so long, rather than having a new one built every few years (or even only every ten years), with all the energy costs involved in production.

[Wombat Attack]

Re: Meh...

We all love the original DS, but there's never going to be a modern car as characterful and ground-breaking. Just take the DS5 for what it is. A stylish but in no way cutting edge alternative to the German rivals. A boring box is the last thing it is. But if you're really looking for a modern day successor to the original DS, surely you could do no better than a Citroen C6?

[Vic]

Re: Meh...

The DS was a magnificent car, there was hardly a single part of the car that was 'normal'

The steering system was rather excellent on many models - they had the Diravi power steering system. This gave you speed-dependent variable assist and didn't give you a directinal change if you hit a pothole or similar. It also made electronics control very much simpler - which is why TRRL used the car for its automatic steering tests.

Sadly, most of the UK ones only had a conventional steering system.

Vic.

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Meh...

The DS never had DIRAVI; that was on the SM and CX.

The DS (mine is a 1973 EFI Pallas Hydraulic, originally from Paris) does have power steering, but the slightly cheaper ID did not. The ID later became known as the D Super, but I don't think it ever got power steering.

[Vic]

Re: Meh...

The DS never had DIRAVI

Yes, they did. Not many over here, for sure, but Diravi was pioneered on the DS.

mine is a 1973 EFI Pallas Hydraulic

If you;re ever looking for some dead weight in the passenger seat, give me a shout :-)

Vic.

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Meh...

I beg to differ on that; I've found reports of people retrofitting it from the SM to the DS, and some test mutants that helped with the design of the SM. But I'm certain it was never a production option.

The DS lives in my east London lockup. Perhaps I should offer rides to Reg readers.

[Harman Mogul]

Re: Meh...

What anon forgets is that the designers of the DS forgot to equip it with a modern engine. As I recall it was fitted with a feeble pushrod engine that had originally seen service in the 1934 Traction Avant. This new car suffers from the same fault — old-school engines. Diesel is not the future of passenger cars!

No doubt PSA ran out of money to create a modern powertrain, just as Citroën did with the DS, which was intended to have an air-cooled flat-six. Surely someone, somewhere, must be trying to fit a DS with a Subaru 3.6-liter boxer engine? A Chapron convertible so modified would indeed be a car to treasure.

[Yugguy]

Looks Ok I guess.

In that generic slightly pumped-up look that all new cars seem to be adopting now.

And at least it doesn't have those unfathomably bizarre textured side panels like the Cactus.

And he's right - no diesel will win in the 0-60s but as I'm not 17 I don't care. 221 lb/ft even in the lowest spec engine should still give decent in gear times for overtaking or getting onto a motorway with decent speed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Looks Ok I guess.

If you're going to glue bits onto a car and call it a "Cactus", you'd better live up to the name.

The Australians showed how to do it properly a la "That's not a Cactus.... THIS is a Cactus."

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Looks Ok I guess.

The Australians showed how to do it properly a la "That's not a Cactus.... THIS is a Cactus."

LOL. That certainly has a fairly Darwinian approach to wayward pedestrians :)

[Voland's right hand]

Not the obvious place for the window controls but it looks snazzy enough

That is the traditional french place for them. If memory serves me right, the 25 year old Clio RT Mk1 which I handed down to my mom has them in the same place along with the central locking (I think they moved it to the doors on the later models).

It is still running by the way (makes an excellent Pensioner Utility Vehicle). The secret of longetivity for French cars which every 3(+)rd world mechanic will tell you is to flush the radiator regularly and change it once it is 12-14 years old. If you do that, you can reach 300k+ miles on an old French petrol rust bucket with ease. If you do not, they will blow the main gasket ~ 12-15 years of age. By the way - you will not find that in the Haynes book.

[Pascal Monett]

The traditional French place ? I think not.

My company car is a Peugeot 207. The window buttons are on the door, in front of the handle.

I had a Laguna 2 a few years ago, window buttons were on the door handle as well. Renault Scenic models are the same. The Renault 5 my mother had decades ago was the same. So I would say that the traditional window button position in France is on the interior door handle.

On the other hand, I had a BMW 330d, it had all window button controls behind the gearshift on the central column. I found that quite practical. Curiously, the Audi A5 I have now has the buttons . . on the door handle.

Concerning the DS5, I am quite happy to know that they have removed the Citroën name from it. A Citroën car has hydropneumatic suspension. It is the defining characteristic of Citroën, and the main reason that all Citroën lovers have stuck with the brand.

A car that does not have hydropneumatic suspension does not deserve the Citroën moniker.

[Jan 0]

Re: Not the obvious place for the window controls but it looks snazzy enough

Change IT? Change what, the radiator? If so why? If it's scaled up, won't descaling do the job?

[Admiral Grace Hopper]

I like Citroëns

But a big Citroën without hydropneumatic suspension seems to miss the point. My Xantia was the only car I drove from Bristol to Inverness without the slightest hint of discomfort.

[Ru']

"The window controls are all in the centre console"? Fail. Supposedly upmarket, and then penny-pinch on a few metres of wire.

I like the idea of the overhead switches though...

[Anonymous Coward]

Very nice, but....

Is there an Édition Spéciale Frightening Marmalade?

[Anonymous Coward]

My only 'problem' with cars these days...

... is that they all more or less look alike.

Oh, I'm sure that a car expert can narrow down all the specific features and specific styles which make this car stand out from the rest. Sure. Maybe it's me getting old. But last century it was easy to immediately recognize and distinguish between, say, a Citroen and a Volkswagen or a Ford. Nowadays I'm more than often not too sure anymore.

In general it's usually more of the same to me. And the best way to separate one from the other is the logo. What gives?

[werdsmith]

Re: My only 'problem' with cars these days...

I'm no car expect but this thing looks nothing like a Nissan Juke or a Range Rover Evoque.

Or even a Mazda 3.

[theOtherJT]

I'm reminded of the old C6

Lovely car. Fantastic to look at. Genuinely interesting.

Far too expensive. No one will buy one. Depreciates like a falling rock.

End result, no one actually buys them and they disappear of the sales lists in a couple of years.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I'm reminded of the old C6

I had an extended month-long test drive in a C6 with a view to it being my company car.

It was absolutely amazing, the satnav head up display was remarkable given that this was a decade ago. Alas the car was slightly longer than my house was wide at the time and so parking would have been quite the problem.

I still look now at the ones that pop up on autotrader - almost all ex-dealer or head office cars, the depreciation has been hefty, as would be the first repair bill that came in shortly after buying one. I shall stick to my 1981 Mehari.

[Vic]

Re: I'm reminded of the old C6

the depreciation has been hefty

You should see the XM. In 1990, when they launched, they started at about £30k. ~10 years later, I was paying £200 each...

as would be the first repair bill that came in shortly after buying one

The first repair quote I got[1] from a Citroen main stealer nearly took me off my feet. There's no way I could afford it. It turns out that these cars are actually quite easy to work on yourself - and it's a lot cheaper that way...

Vic.

[1] It was 1994, and time for my XM's MOT. I'd only had it a few months. They failed it because the steering clocked if you span it end-to-end. Apparently, that meant it needed a new rack. I'd only ever replaced a rack on an Escort before that, so I was expecting a similar price. They quoted me £728.32[2] + fitting + VAT: £1200-odd quid in all. I fixed the problem in 20 minutes using no parts.

[2] I'm not sure I'll ever forget that figure. It was a shock.

[clatters]

Re: I'm reminded of the old C6

The latest C5's are based on the C6 chassis/floorplan. I have had one for two years and when parked next to the "old" C5 I owned, it is about 35cm longer.

And yes, they both have pneumatic suspension as they should.

As for falling apart, I have had absolutely no troubles apart from a split window washer reservoir in the old C5 and I have had 5 Citroens since my first which was an AMI 8 back in the day (four-pot horizontally opposed engine (just like a Porsche)). THAT'S A JOKE.

R

[cantankerous swineherd]

nowhere near as good as the real thing.

[Nadjau]

I've owned a top spec C5 with hydro-pneumatic suspension since 2008 - funded by a car allowance. It was bought new for about the same money as a well-specced Golf. The C5 is a hugely underrated car and is extremely comfortable. Nothing major has fallen off, apart from the condenser being punctured by a stone, and it doesn't rattle. Of course its second-hand value is peanuts now.

As Citroen/DS have canned the idea of producing any new models with this suspension set-up I'll just have to continue enjoying the ride in the C5 until it's ready for the scrapyard!

[Jean Le PHARMACIEN]

Vive la....

I have the lower spec VTR+ C5 tourer with conventional suspension. Was somewhat disappointed with that, (loved my Xantias) but I have to say Citroen have tuned it to feel almost exactly like the hydropneumatic Xantias. Very good long distance cruiser. Over 4 years and 60K miles been very reliable - nothing dropped off so far. Have had the punctured AC condenser though. Paid very little for it second hand and wouldn't change it for an Audi. Most people on the road seem to take it for an Audi/BMW - worryingly, that could be the way I drive......

Very underrated car. Citroen certainly seem to have improved over the past 10 years

[alpine]

SM

They should reintroduce that most beautiful car, the Citroen SM. I wonder whether SM would be a good brand? In some circles, possibly...

They could merge with the old Bond brand, for even more excitement. The SM Bond.

[Dave 126]

Re: SM

Haha, I watched Zoolander again the other night, a film in which the Citreon SM makes a cameo.

[ratfox]

The question then is, can a mass-market car maker move 'up market' in Europe

That I remember, Audi also used to be fairly mass-market… Wasn't the TT their first "cool car"?

[Yugguy]

Wasn't the TT their first "cool car"?

Depends on your age - for me their coolest car was the 80 turbo quattro rally spec.

The only Audi I've ever wanted.

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C596363

[clatters]

The question then is, can a mass-market car maker move 'up market' in Europe?

Do you mean like Hitler’s favourite engine manufacturer, was famous for building motorbikes, then becoming what every tw@ in England now thinks is an excellent car.

Answer - YES - Bayerische Motoren Werke

[Anonymous Coward]

Electric windows

Nice looking, and sounding, motor. A shame about the placement of the buttons for the 'lecky windows though - in my book they go on the door near the window, where you expect to find them, and where they ought to be!

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: Electric windows

Pah! It's called a DS. Very little is likely to be where you expect it to be!

Mine has the gear change sticking out of the top of the steering column, and the parking brake is applied with your foot, and released with your hand.

Even so, it's surprising how quickly you adapt to things like that.

[captain veg]

like a dent

"There’s a strange bit for panel curvature over the front wheel arches that when I first noticed it looked like a dent"

That's hommage too. Remember the Ami? Looked like it had been already crashed while still in the factory.

-A.

[MJI]

DS? No not a DS

A DS is futuristic, unique to look at, a car for someone who appreciates engineering.

This is a poshish hatch.

Where is the with hydro-pneumatic suspension?

[Ilmarinen]

Re: DS? No not a DS

I agree.

Citroën was always a company that produced different, interesting and well engineered cars. From the Traction Avant, through the flat twins/fours, hydraulic suspension, early turbodiesels...

This is just meh, and Citroën cars are pretty much like any other these days. I'll probably end up with something from another marque when my current old C5 dies :-(

[MJI]

Re: DS? No not a DS

Never a fan of the 2CV but the large cars, DS, SM & CX were always very interesting.

And for the small ones the GS is pretty clever.

To be honest not my type of car but a car I can really appreciate. But I would definatly would have go in a real DS.

I also like their old corrugated vans.

[IHateWearingATie]

Bit expensive

Have been looking at a new family car - 29k is a little much when I could get well specced Octavia VRS for 27K, or step up to BMW, Audi (albeit not top specced) for a few grand more.

Looks okay but not too interesting. Engines available look 'meh'.

Not tempted unfortunately.

[Pseudonymous Diehard]

I drive a Berlingo.

Its ace.

Had it for 8 years...I even hit a spare wheel that fell off a coach on the M3 and the only damage it caused was a busted bulb. Not even the cover smashed.

People comaining about Citroen build quality bought the wrong cars.

A low end "aimed at teenagers" hatchback is never going to be solid. Buy a grown up car and you'll get what you pay for.

[Zog_but_not_the_first]

Re: I drive a Berlingo.

The only car I've ever been in that had overhead lockers.

[Vic]

Re: I drive a Berlingo.

People comaining about Citroen build quality bought the wrong cars.

Go back to the '80s and Citroen had some shocking build quality...

Vic.

[Jan 0]

What's so difficult about creating a modern version of a DS?

Astonishingly futuristic looking body! Err, no.

Unique suspension! Err, no.

Sensible parking brake! Err, no.

Headlights that point where you're driving! Err, no.

Etc., etc.

The original DS still looks like a 25th Century car. Why can't Citroen just recreate the original body and essential features using modern technology? Win, win? I'd buy one tomorrow!!

Where's the Flash Gordon icon?

[Anonymous Coward]

THE Real DS

If you have ever had the pleasure of a ride in an original DS you will probably agree that it has no peer.

Re branding as DS is fine,its a commercial decision but comparing the original DS with a modern car just shows how far backwards they have gone :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't have ANY Citroen in a gift ! I had three different ones foisted on me when I had company cars and they were all disasters - particularly the XM !! What a heap of rubbish! I was driving to work and attempted to change gear and the gear lever was more like a joystick - which gear I was in was a lottery. Then the gearstick came away in my hand on another occasion, the suspension was always failing, electrical faults galore and finally, it went on fire in the middle of a busy town....

[Anonymous C0ward]

Hasn't anyone noticed

that "Citroen" translates as "Lemon"?