72 virgins. Not young virgins, but old hags. There's a reason they're still virgins.
Hold on, France and Russia. Anonymous is here to kick ISIS butt
As world powers prepare to bomb barbaric ISIS into the medieval age it so dearly craves, in the wake of the Paris attacks Anonymous too has declared war on the terror group. Make no mistake: #Anonymous is at war with #Daesh. We won't stop opposing #IslamicState. We're also better hackers. #OpISIS — Anonymous (@GroupAnon) …
COMMENTS
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Monday 16th November 2015 23:04 GMT Anonymous Coward
Getting Tough
"On Monday, Anonymous has already stirred the waters by naming US content-delivery provider Cloudflare as one of the firms keeping ISIS online."
So Anonymous is basically saying that any firm which thwarts Anonymous from carying out judgement on the condemned is automatically tarred with the same crimes as the condemned?
Sounds great! Anonymous is known to be fair and impartial, so why NOT get out of their way, Cloudflare? You're not just shielding ISIS, you're protecting Conservatives too! Are there no bounds to your evil?
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 06:06 GMT MacroRodent
Re: Getting Tough
"Islamic fundamentalist" does not equal "Conservative," except in a few warped minds.
"Conservative" means someone who wants to keep things the same, or return them to some past idealized state. In the U.S. it seems to mean return to the unbridled capitalism of the 1800's and early 1900's, in Russia conservatives long for the return of the U.S.S.R., and the islamic fundamentalists want to return to the islamic society like it was about 1400 years ago... I would say they are the most extreme conservatives of them all :-).
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 10:20 GMT LucreLout
Re: Getting Tough
@MacroRodent
"Conservative" means someone who wants to keep things the same, or return them to some past idealized state.
Your definition is wrong for these purposes, otherwise the entire "Labour movement", as they like to describe themselves, are Conservatives. I think you'll find they may disagree.....
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 23:40 GMT Al Black
Re: return Getting Tough
Yes; you are technically correct. Conservatives want to preserve (conserve) the status quo, by definition; however Conservative has come to mean those who want to roll back to an earlier, idealised point in time, such as the middle-class paradise of the Thatcher era.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 09:31 GMT Charlie Clark
Re: Getting Tough
The labour party is far right wing, Blair is extreme right wing.
You're exaggerating, of course. He was opportunistic as much as anything else, which is why the evident conviction displayed about Iraq sat so strangely and for which he will probably be remembered (and reviled). Looking back I always try and imagine how things would have been if the Tories had stayed in power. But he did drag the country into a needless and expensive conflict that has almost certainly contributed to instability in the Middle East.
Mr Booth's comment did, however, prefigure Blair's opportunistic and egocentric politics as wonderfully satirised by The Comic Strip in The Hunt For Tony Blair.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 10:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Getting Tough
No discussion on politics can escape the remarkably simple political compass people want to create, many not even a compass but a single line.
It's getting kind of boring now, political leanings are complex and we're doing everybody a disservice by talking about it in such basic terms.
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Thursday 19th November 2015 18:19 GMT Michael Wojcik
Re: Getting Tough
No discussion on politics can escape the remarkably simple political compass people want to create, many not even a compass but a single line.
When it comes to political discussions around here, "a single line" overestimates the degrees of freedom in most posters' political models by at least one.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 17:06 GMT imaginarynumber
Re: Getting Tough
"Don't you know that nazi was an abbreviation for National Capitalist"
Erm, you mean the political party that rejected both free market capitalism and Marxist socialism?
They could have called themselves the National My Little Pony Party, it doesn't follow that they had an equine fetish or that they wanted to elevate the position of those with pink manes
No need to reply, it is pretty clear from your tired post where your political allegiances lie (which is your prerogative). For the record, I am a "none of the above" kinda guy (rightly or wrongly).
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 09:19 GMT LucreLout
Re: Getting Tough
@imaginarynumber
Erm, you mean the political party that rejected both free market capitalism and Marxist socialism?
That you think Marxist socialism is the only socialism makes it pretty clear where your uneducated and ill-thought out garbage is coming from. No need to reply, petal. For the record, the nazi's were a hell of a lot closer to socialists than capitalists, certainly in economic terms.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 17:23 GMT JLV
Re: Getting Tough
+1
Though, to be fair, I recall Adolf got plenty of support from good old corporations and capitalists as well. Probably them wishing to avoid the Worker's Paradise alternative which really ended up pretty nasty too.
I really wish we got better at respecting each others' opinions. This whole you don't vote my way so you suck is a very tiresome trend, one of the most annoying contributions of our US brethren with their endless Dems vs Reps stormy teacups.
As to Daesh, we should feed them pig faeces when captured. But I also wish regular Muslims were a lot more aggressive in policing their communities and speaking up against jihadists, rather than just stating (not using 'claiming' is deliberate) it has nothing to do with them. There's a big way-too-silent majority that needs to be much more active in rooting out this poison and perversion of their religion. Though I also empathize that these events are hurting them too, esp if we all become more intolerant. Which is Daesh's goal, no doubt.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 21:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Getting Tough
> "There's a big way-too-silent majority that needs to be much more active in rooting out this poison and perversion of their religion."
That would be good but it can't happen. In the Koran, violence against unbelievers and stratified discrimination of women and unbelievers is inherent and (apparently) approved of by Allah, particularly towards the end. I won't even get into the 'Allah-approved lying to infidels' thing.
Any faithful Muslims who want to oppose their faith's terrorists must also face charges from those violent fundies that they are going against the teachings of Mohammed, as revealed in the Koran. It's obviously too much to ask of most Muslims.
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 16:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Getting Tough
The impulse towards total control over society tends to be a Left thing anyway.
True.
It's important to remember that National Socialism was the name and foundation of Adolf H.'s organization. As evidenced by the downvotes here, it's the radical left that wants to suppress speech they don't agree with. if you read "Mein Kampf", and Mussolini's "My Story", both books talk about how easy it is to manipulate extreme left-wing socialists into agreeing with a totalitarian state.
The Extreme Right wants a weak central government with weak corporate oversight.
The Extreme Left wants a strong central government with strong corporate oversight.
Which one was Adolf?
if you want an example of my Right-Wing model above, look at right-wing Texas. The state legislature does very little, all the power is in the local governments. and corporate oversight is moderate. The majority of Texas State income comes from county taxes and fees (taxes from oil is less than 10%), most of which stays within the county. By keeping the money at the county level corruption is minimized. There is no state income taxes, instead there are "pay as you go" fees. The rich pay more, and the poor pay little. Texas is one of the most financially healthy states in the USA. Conservative Texas is what liberals pretend to want.
Compare that to ultra-Leftist California, which has a huge, bloated, corrupt state legislature and crushing corporate oversight. By sending all taxes and fees to the state government the corruption in CA is absolutely staggering. The state government completely dominates and manipulates each and every facet of your life. The state is so financially crippled that it is one of the few states that while making moderate yearly increases in population, it is declining in labor force every year.
If you downvote me, ask yourself why - is it because what I wrote is incorrect - then, go ahead. But if you downvote me because you do not like the truth of what I wrote, then you validate all my points.
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Monday 16th November 2015 23:27 GMT JustNiz
>> "A website is speech... no provider has an affirmative obligation to monitor and make determinations about the theoretically harmful nature of speech a site may contain," said Cloudflare's CEO Matthew Prince
if Anonymous just planted some rips of commercial CDs and DVDs on all the ISIS sites then tipped off the RIAA/MPAA, I'd give it a day at most before Cloudflare suddenly did a complete U-turn.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 04:20 GMT Mark 85
Re: Good intentions, bad outcome
Indeed, it will. The problem is currently, that the people doing their job are overwhelmed. They note, identify and track... and then get distracted by the next guy/group that pops up. The first ones carry one. It's already been admitted in the popular press that the security/spy/intel types are overwhelmed and yet their bosses feel the need to collect more. I think someone needs to take a deep breath and figure out priorities and how to handle the info/data they're already collecting.
Part of what is coming out is "we had no intel on this", "we had chatter and knew something was up" and the inevitable: "we knew of them and had them on a watch list".
Edit: I should have added... things are getting tougher on the Intel types as reports are that the baddies are using the Playstation to communicate and the encryption and methods of hiding comms are pretty much unbreakable. The greed of the 5-eyes and seeking more data collection has already sent many groups deep into more secure comms.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 20:18 GMT JLV
Re: Good intentions, bad outcome
Oh, I dunno. If ISIS has any kinda clue they would compartmentalize their recruitment vs their operations. Meaning that penetrating a propaganda website would then show you little besides who browses it and if really lucky, who admins it. If that is true, taking it down achieves more than leaving it up as a honeypot.
On the whole, forcing them to expend efforts to keep up their propaganda arm is better than leaving them with clear access to hearts and minds.
My $0.02 anyway. For once I am rooting for Anonymous.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 01:04 GMT TimeMaster T
Unfortunately as far as Daesh is concerned the simple fact that those in the restaurant we not Muslims was all the justification they needed. And even if some were it still wouldn't have mattered to the shooters, to Daesh any Muslims who die in their attacks die as Martyrs for the greater glory of Allah (blessed is His name, or some such BS like that) and get a free pass to paradise.
The more I find out about Islam the more I am convinced that the world will never know any kind of lasting peace while ANY religions exist.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 01:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
No, it's worse
One of the targets was a restaurant run by Algerians in a very multicultural part of Paris. They were targeted for being the wrong kind of Muslim, which makes them just as bad as you and I as far as Daesh is concerned.
And before anybody gets carried away with finding out more about Islam, remember that the whole Northern Ireland shitfest was decades of violence between two flavors of Christians; and the Balkans is a three-way clusterfuck between Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and Muslims.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 02:32 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: No, it's worse
"And before anybody gets carried away with finding out more about Islam, remember that the whole Northern Ireland shitfest was decades of violence between two flavors of Christians; and the Balkans is a three-way clusterfuck between Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and Muslims."
The commonality in all of them: religion. Hence TimeMaster T's comment "I am convinced that the world will never know any kind of lasting peace while ANY religions exist."
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 00:36 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: No, it's worse
@AC - so far as religion is concerned, I think you'll find that it's the fact they are organised religions that causes the problem, as any organisation is effectively a power structure and there'll always be those that want to be at the top, and those who want to abuse such structures. Not all religion is organised though. (also, not all faith is incompatible with a scientific mindset, although that's a whole 'nother argument).
I'm not convinced that Daesh is motivated by any kind of Islam per se - seems to be a bunch of social inadequates who feel that arming themselves and behaving atrociously is a way to gain power and 'respect' that they haven't been able to get by normal social means. Except, of course, that all it actually does is make any sane and civilised person regard them as barbarous dipshits. Islam is simply the excuse they use., IMHO.
As to why they can use Islam in this way, well, I'm part way through reading a very interesting book, called 'Heretic', by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Born in Somalia and raised a Muslim, but now living in the West, teh author argues the case for Islam being in need of a Reformation, and she identifies five points of the Islamic faith as being inherently harmful and in need of being repudiated:
(begin quote:)
1. Muhammad's semi-divine and infallible status along with the literalist reading of the Qu'ran, particularly those parts that were revealed in Medina*;
2.The investment in life after death instead of life before death;
3. Sharia, the body of legislation derived from the Qu'ran, the hadith**, and the rest of Islamic jurisprudence;
4. The practice of empowering individuals to enforce Islamic law by commanding right and forbidding wrong;
5. The imperative to wage jihad, or holy war.
(end quote)
* apparently during his time in Medina, Muhammad was in a more fiery frame of mind, as compared to his more peaceful attitude originally, at Mecca.
** the hadith are reports of the sayings and doings of Muhammad during his life which are used to interpret what is in the Qu'ran.
Apologies if either of my clarifications immediately above are incorrect in any way, I have simply precis'd my understanding of what I have read in this book.
I would thoroughly reccomend 'Heretic' to anyone interested in the subject of Islam and its relationship to the modern world. I have found it very thought-provoking and compelling, and easily the most constructive thing I've read on the subject to date.
I would add that although a theist myself, I do not believe that adherence to a religion has anything to do with whether one is a moral, ethical, or good person. It's ones actions that count. Faith is that which keeps one going; religion is the window-dressing to faith that pleases one, to my mind. It is a persons actions alone that deterrmine whether they are good or evil. In my humble opinion.
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 10:01 GMT James Micallef
Re: No, it's worse
" the case for Islam being in need of a Reformation"
Completely true, although let's keep in mind that the Christian Reformation, while bringing to an end the excesses of the Crusades and the Inquisition, was itself a process that took a couple of centuries and also involved much sectarian bloodshed.
I can only hope that in the Internet age, the quicker spreading of ideas allows medieval thinking to be enlightened faster than the medieval thinking is poisoning susceptible minds. After all it is evident in many other areas, while people as individuals can and do change, wholesale changes in social attitudes don't. What really happens is youth are exposed to new ideas and old people set in their thinking eventually die out
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 08:51 GMT Dr. Mouse
The more I find out about Islam the more I am convinced that the world will never know any kind of lasting peace while ANY religions exist.
While they use Islam as a cover for their actions, the ISIS murderers are not Muslims. Their beliefs have been distorted, in the same way that all have over history.
The commonality is not religion, but humans. South Park summed it up quite well (in Go God God?). The whole world turned Atheist, yet there was war between 3 factions over with different answers to the "great question". Humans have always found ways to be shitty to each other. Religion is just one of the excuses used, as is race, gender, sexuality, nationality... It will be a long time before we stop this, if we ever do.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 12:16 GMT Triggerfish
Religon is just away of identifying your tribe, which means you can then identify the other tribe so it makes it easier to work out who you should kick the shit out of on a day you are feeling peevish. See also, football, colour, sexuality, star trek versus STNG, gamergate, coffee snobs, Apple v Microsfot, Apple v Android, Linux V Microsoft, Gingers v world. whatever really.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 13:33 GMT Anonymous Coward
I dunno. Most religions seem to boil down to "do what I say now and you'll get sweeties in the afterlife". A method of control that -not incidentally- give the chief practitioners a cushy indoor job with no heavy lifting.
Some people seem to get comfort and a sense of identity from it, and more power to them. The problems arise when they start to get evangelical or -worse- evangelical and militant. Got no problems with quietly religious people...they seem a little odd to me; but I'm sure that they'd say the same about me.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 10:41 GMT James Micallef
"While they use Islam as a cover for their actions, the ISIS murderers are not Muslims. Their beliefs have been distorted, in the same way that all have over history."
I think that "beliefs have been distorted" statement needs to be qualified. Killing of blasphemers and apostates, stoning adulterers to death, killing infidels in determined circumstances, being judged by religious and not civil law (essentially a merging of church and state) ... all of these are part of Islam, no distortions. Either majorities or significantly large minorities of Muslims agree with many or all of the above-mentioned beliefs.
Certainly the more civilised Muslims do not agree with or live by that sort of code, just as modern civilised Roman Catholics use contraception and modern Jews no longer dispense Old Testament 'Eye for an eye' justice. But it's actually modern Roman Catholics, Jews etc who have 'distorted' the literal biblical teachings that were inhumane, intolerant and stupid to come up with a set of beliefs that work in modern society. With Islam, the same needs to happen, and until the vast majority of Muslims* adapt their interpretation of Islam to one more in keeping with living in a modern civilised society, problems like ISIS will continue to happen.
*I'm talking 99% here, as opposed to currently 70-80% in the most progressive muslim countries down to probably 20-30% or even less in some places
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 14:13 GMT Dr. Mouse
"Killing of blasphemers and apostates, stoning adulterers to death, killing infidels in determined circumstances, being judged by religious and not civil law (essentially a merging of church and state) ... all of these are part of Islam, no distortions."
From what I understand (and I am no expert, but have researched the subject), all passages of the Qu'ran advocating violence belong to specific periods of war. This is just the same as when the Israelites had left Egypt and were trying to establish a place where they could be safe and free: They sacked cities, murdered women and children, in the name of god. If you then read further, once civilisation had taken root, the teachings become less violent. Taken in context, the Qu'ran does not support violence today.
Anyone who holds that a book written hundreds of years ago should still be used as a literal, absolute rule book... Well, they need their heads examining. I support religious freedom, as long as it is not forced upon others with different beliefs, and argue against the hard-line atheists as much as religious nutters, but beliefs need to adapt with evidence and society. As an example, I do not believe that evolution or the big bang theory are incompatible with Christianity. They could be how God created the universe, especially given how symbolic the Bible is in places.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 17:37 GMT JLV
+1 except the Muslim code originally did in fact allow specifically for tolerance wrt People of the Book, i.e. Christians and Jews. As usual, lots of good core ideas get lost and willfully ignored by fanatics on all sides, just as Communism ended up perversion of any kind of workers's rights.
It's not atheists vs religious that matters, it's normal people vs rabid bloodthirsty fanatics that matter. We got the guns and we got the numbers, ISIS.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 13:23 GMT Graham Jordan
@Dr. Mouse
No, they are Muslims, just not of the same sect as say Sunni, Shai or even main stream Westernised. They pray to their invisible super hero friend, that makes them religious. They identify themselves as Muslims, they're Muslims.
Atheists don't murder one another because of their different beliefs. No Atheist has ever opened fire on innocents because they believe in the big rip and not the eternal expansion of the universe.
Profit and power start/prolong wars. Remove religion entirely and you're going to find it bloody difficult to justify a bombing campaign when suddenly the world is a whole lot calmer.*
*Unless of course your China. Or Russia. Or a Nork.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 16:17 GMT Sweep
"the ISIS murderers are not Muslims"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Islam is (basically) the interpretation of the writings (Koran) and teachings/ sayings about Muhammed (Hadith). That ISISs interpretation differs from that of the majority of Muslims today does not make them non-Muslims. ISISs Islam is the closest to the religion of the historical Muhammed (who conquered Mecca, most of Arabia, started the Muslim conquests etc etc)......
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 11:03 GMT Roj Blake
"Unfortunately as far as Daesh is concerned the simple fact that those in the restaurant we not Muslims was all the justification they needed. And even if some were it still wouldn't have mattered to the shooters, to Daesh any Muslims who die in their attacks die as Martyrs for the greater glory of Allah (blessed is His name, or some such BS like that) and get a free pass to paradise.
"The more I find out about Islam the more I am convinced that the world will never know any kind of lasting peace while ANY religions exist."
____________
You do know that the two biggest mass murderers of all time (Mao and Stalin) were atheists, right?
If it's acceptable to blame all Muslims for the actions of a fanatical minority, then presumably you are to blame for the Long March and the Siberian gulags.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 12:06 GMT James Micallef
"You do know that the two biggest mass murderers of all time (Mao and Stalin) were atheists, right?"
In the context being used here, "religion" = any belief system that fosters an "us vs them" mentality in which the "them" are un-humans to be eliminated. Quite often the leaders of such religion do not themselves believe it, or believe it only enough (doublethink) to further their ends. Mao and Stalin's type of communism is exactly a religion as being discussed here. I also include extreme nationalism in this category*.
Let's be clear, there will always be megalomaniac sociopaths who will do everything in their manipulative power to reach their ends, this type of "religion" for them is a tool to brainwash the masses. If people no longer have a "religion" (as being used in this context), this cannot be used against them to manipulate them.
*Religion since the alleged superiority of the particular ideology, nation, race etc is taken as an article of faith that clear^ly falls apart on the first application of critical thought.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 12:08 GMT Anonymous Coward
@ Roj Blake: A certain amount of truth in what you say but...
> You do know that the two biggest mass murderers of all time (Mao and Stalin) were atheists, right?
Ostensibly maybe but in reality I think it is fair to say that they used a dogmatic system (communism) to create a cult of personality around themselves and maintain a strict social order. This is pretty much cult behaviour writ large but without any nod to mystical beings. What they really did was replace a feudal state/religious dichotomy with an industrial state hegemony - it was religion in all but name, insofar as religion is really just a means of enforcing tradition and preserving the ruling class. I'd even go so far as to say that communism was the final evolution of religion before people actually started to realise that it was all a con.
(I trust no one is going to come back at me with the 'magic sky fairies do exist, because my mom told me when I was 4 years old and I've never plucked up the courage to question it' justification)
But you are right, it is unfair to blame any group for the actions of a handfull of nutjobs.
I still feel that we would all be better off if we gave up on divisive religious notions and stopped trying to impose our personal morality on others (and they are generally divisive, no matter what watered-down apologists might try to claim to the contrary). Science has won, the sky fairies only exist in old books, can we move on now? Hold to no dogma, challenge your beliefs and think critically, it's the only light you have in the darkness.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 13:59 GMT Geoffrey W
RE: "You do know that the two biggest mass murderers of all time (Mao and Stalin) were atheists, right?"
Yes, but they didn't do their murdering because atheism told them to do it, or even in the name of atheism. They did their murdering for expediency to maintain control and themselves in power.
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 00:05 GMT Geoffrey W
RE; "> Yes, but they didn't do their murdering because atheism told them to do it
I'm sure that was a great comfort to their victims."
Of course it wasn't. Neither is it a reason to bring atheism into the argument. You might as well say Stalin drank coffee, or Mao enjoyed bird watching, and imply that had something to do with their odorous doings, or any arbitrary thing they might have done or believed. Its a straw man argument designed to divert attention from religions role in numerous other atrocities.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 00:57 GMT Anonymous Coward
I hope this "Anonymous" political group with it's simplistic, flawed world-view don't fool too many wannabes into joining their collective, as much as I hope misguided people wont join ISIS. Anonymous don't seem to understand that their actions are provocative and might result in more innocent blood being shed. If they stage another "million mask march" they'll likely be targeted.
If the leaders are anonymous, how can they be held to account? Why would anyone trust them and their intentions any more than they would trust a stranger? What if it turns out the leaders are criminal psychopaths manipulating their cohorts to bring about confrontation and destabilisation in society?
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 01:11 GMT TimeMaster T
You trust strangers all the time.
Do you personally know your current PM/President/Sultan/King/etc.?
Will you vouch for their integrity in a court of law? Would you counter sign a loan for one of them or trust them with direct access to your bank accounts and credit cards. Would you let them babysit your child?
"What if it turns out the leaders are criminal psychopaths manipulating their cohorts to bring about confrontation and destabilisation in society?"
sounds like every world leader/politician I've heard of in the last 50 years
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 14:32 GMT DropBear
"The leaders of our governments are generally psychopaths."
Let me fix that for you: most anybody who's fairly well known is generally a psychopath*. A politician is just someone willing to use any means necessary to trample over other people in the pursuit of power after all; just as a successful entrepreneur / CEO is just someone willing to use any means necessary to trample over other people in the pursuit of money, and a celebrity is just someone willing to use any means necessary to trample over other people in the pursuit of fame (also money, hopefully). Arguably "sociopath" is more fitting but I'm not sure the distinction is really there. The thing is, people who think that the ends don't necessarily justify the means invariably fail to raise from the crowd - whenever interests are involved the law of the jungle rules supreme, and principles come with a cost...
*okay, there are always exceptions like, say, Gandhi or Einstein - but I believe the point is valid...
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 17:10 GMT Fraggle850
Psycopaths and sociopaths
Actually, although the terms are often used interchangeably there is a strong technical distinction between the two. Sociopaths tend to be of lower intellectual capability and their resulting sadistic traits are due to environmental influences during their formative years, whereas psycopaths tend to have greater intellectual capabilities, with their lack of empathy being of a neurological nature rather than psychological. I guess you could charaterise it as nature versus nurture.
I believe that this is the current thinking in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual), although I got that interpretation from an article on the subject by a psychologist.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 10:10 GMT 's water music
You trust strangers all the time.
Do you personally know your current PM/President/Sultan/King/etc.?
Will you vouch for their integrity in a court of law? Would you counter sign a loan for one of them or trust them with direct access to your bank accounts and credit cards. Would you let them babysit your child?
Well, I wouldn't want my PM babysitting one of my kids
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 00:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
> Re: You trust strangers all the time.
> Do you personally know your current PM/President/Sultan/King/etc.?
I would not trust a stranger (someone not previously known to me) without some means of identifying them incase they betray my trust. Trust is built through interaction. I would not trust an anonymous person or group since they have nothing to lose.
The same would apply to trusting people who don't know me, as their public persona could be a deception.
> Re: "Anonymous" isn't a political group, and it doesn't have "leaders".
So Anonymous isn't a political group, it just attacks political groups for entirely non-political reasons? By attacking the KKK and ISIS they are implicitly advocating a political view which is that those groups are not permitted independence (e.g. a separate state) while others implicitly are. If there is no consistent idea behind their attacks then their attacks are pointless and they have no moral basis to justify them. The only idea I have read that Anonymous believe is freedom of information - which is incidental to these attacks on political groups.
Up 'til now Anonymous have attacked law-abiding organisations who would not retaliate in an unlawful way, but by attacking ISIS they have chosen to make enemies of people who don't respect our laws.
Unlike other protest groups, Anonymous are provocative, they go beyond exercising freedom of thought and freedom of expression. They cross a moral and legal line. I'm not advocating anything, but if I were Anonymous, I would expect ISIS.
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 02:40 GMT veti
@ironically Anonymous Coward
Your error is in seeing 'Anonymous' as a group. It just doesn't have that level of organisation.
Think of 18th century pirates. Some of them would habitually get together into small fleets, but at other times each ship would sail independently. There were pirate havens, where they'd occasionally get together and hobnob and get their fix of land-borne necessities, but then they'd go their separate ways in search of separate targets.
That's 'Anonymous'.
There's no entry requirement, no membership roll, no exit process. And no leaders. To say that "Anonymous as a group is doing something" means no more than "a bunch of people have decided to do this, and they're calling themselves 'Anonymous'." Then the very next day, another group could get together with precisely the opposite aim in mind, and they could also call themselves "Anonymous", and there would be no way of telling - even for members of the groups themselves - which group had a better claim to the label.
So if you persist in thinking of 'Anonymous' as a single group, there's no wonder its actions don't seem to make coherent sense.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 01:05 GMT Steven Roper
Cloudflare's CEO is right about one thing
It is not Cloudflare's business to vet and make political decisions about the sites it hosts - any more than it is the business of the postal service to open people's letters to check for illegal content, or telcos to monitor phone calls. The moment we make carriage services liable for the content they transport we open a very dangerous and undesirable can of worms.
I also stand very strongly for the right of freedom of speech, in fact standing for freedom is my highest ideal. But a line has to be drawn, and for me that line exists where one's speech advocates or enables taking freedom away from someone else. I hold that the right of free speech does not carry with it the right to take it away from others - or even to advocate taking it away. Freedom for one must by definition be freedom for all otherwise the entire concept becomes nonsensical.
So sites that recruit or promote the cause of any group whose stated purpose is to impose violent control of others - and ISIS and its ilk very definitely fall into that category - are not, or should not be, "protected speech."
However it is the role of law enforcement and and the judiciary to determine if a law has been broken, not carriage providers. Cloudflare have every right to host any site, no matter what its content, right up until the moment it is told to remove the site by a duly appointed and empowered legal authority that has followed due process to determine that the site breaks the law. And once that happens, only then should they remove it.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 01:32 GMT Hazmoid
Re: Cloudflare's CEO is right about one thing
Hmm there are shades of grey there that need to be interpreted. The Postal service may not open parcels but they do provide access for screening by Customs and Border protection/Homeland Security. These authorities can then act on suspicion of intent to commit a crime. So in the same way Cloudflare can provide access to the appropriate authorities to screen material that is appearing on their servers.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 05:17 GMT Kevin McMurtrie
Re: Cloudflare's CEO is right about one thing
You're wrong in implying that it's OK to assist in illegal activity until a court order arrives. Businesses are obligated, by law, to know what they're doing. That closes a loophole where there's a massive asymmetry between initiating the crime and shutting down the crime - millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours to produce and enforce a court order every time a criminal runs a script to set up shop.
CloudFlare knowingly hosts phishing sites with fraudulent accreditation and certification badges. They knowingly host CAN-SPAM violators. They know they are hosting illegal telemarketers. They knowingly host sites making illegal calls for violence. The even blog about how they are assisting illegal activities with the stupid defense that somebody else will if they don't. For all the trouble I've had with their scammers, I won't shed a tear if lots of black trucks arrive and their whole operation and a few executives vanish.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 10:20 GMT Anonymous Coward
I wish the media would let them fizzle out in peace.
They give ISIS 24/7 news coverage which will, in turn, make them want more media coverage, like any celebrity......keeping in the media front pages keeps your cause in view.
This was part reason for the British banning IRA and suspected terrorists from appearing or talking to the media, whilst they could use an actor for voice, it also meant they could censor the dialogue.
Perhaps less coverage of the "terrorists propaganda" (yes, quoting ISIS spokespersons and showing their online video's) and more coverage on the victim impact?
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 15:29 GMT CrazyOldCatMan
Re: I wish the media would let them fizzle out in peace.
> Perhaps less coverage of the "terrorists propaganda" (yes, quoting ISIS
Good luck with that in the Internet age. The IRA ban relied on the fact that most of the news organisations and media were directly or indirectly able to be influenced by the Government. That situation no longer applies.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 13:00 GMT anonymous boring coward
"A website is speech. It is not a bomb. There is no imminent danger it creates and no provider has an affirmative obligation to monitor and make determinations about the theoretically harmful nature of speech a site may contain," said Cloudflare's CEO Matthew Prince at the time"
Perhaps, being a CEO and all, this Prince should read up on the law?
Most countries in the world have laws governing incitement to murder.
Apart from that, many internet providers have additional minimum standards of conduct expected of their clients. The are not obliged to provide services to terrorist organisations. But I guess $19.99 per month is too much to resist.. (a figure I grasped from thin air because I'm lazy)
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 19:14 GMT Anonymous Coward
Best sub-headline of the day!!
Iain Thomson !! Bloody brilliant sub-line! I laughed my butt off at that one!
I like the news I get here at El Reg, but sometimes I read the article titles simply for these little jewels!
I'm not sure who comes up with them, but just so funny! Thanks for the chuckle!
Oh, and by God I hope the Big A steals all those bastards identities!
Viva La France!
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 19:55 GMT Danny 2
Only 5 days older & I'm right-wing
The Paris attacks changed me from afar, just because I'm worried about friends. I'm suddenly pro-war (well, pro that war), pro-arming of all British police (the ones who can pass a psych test at least), pro-internment of relatives of terrorists, pro-death penalty. I'm still against torture, but only because it doesn't work, not for any principled reason.
I'm giving serious consideration to going to Iraq to fight and die for the Kurds once I'm free to. I'd be an utter liability, no army training and the heat alone would kill me, but... I learned how to fire a rifle when I was a kid, have some electronics and computing ability, and I am happy as any Daesh moron to die for my god, Satre. I do realise I'm being even more ridiculous than Anonymous are, without their excuse of youth but I would sign up for any volunteer Dad's Army/ International Brigade.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 21:07 GMT I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects
Talking of violnt retaliation
http://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/proverbs/29.htm
Missing the point as usual is the freeloading bulshit brigaid that has been reported non stop since the attack all neatly forgetting that the bragging about phone signals the day before has just been proven silly
http://biblehub.com/daniel/11-14.htm
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 22:38 GMT Danny 2
Re: Talking of violnt retaliation
"I'm afraid I'll have to let some of you go. The people are complaining about excess prophets"
(A huge pdf for an 'Omni' cartoon joke that you can probably imagine without the download)
That's the thing with prophecy though, it's best served with hind-sight or else it is just a PLOT SPOILER. I was disappointed to learn today that I'm a glummer doom-monger than even Daesh are, they expect another four Caliphs before the 'end-times'. Hopefully in quick succession, we are allegedly down to our last pope. Nostradamus said in a letter to his son that only one person would ever understand his prophecies, and no wonder since William McGonagle wrote better verse.
I am living proof that Daniel is an arse, I'd sort of hoped for Luke and ended up as Samson, now Job.
I predicted yesterday I'd be in prison today, all the signs pointed that way and I tried my best, yet I was wrong yet again. I'm not suffering from a Cassandra complex, true but unbelieved, everything I predict is immediately proven wrong as if by divine intervention. "As if by magic", said Mr Benn. As if.
I know one way how to respond to your "Daniel 11:14" that you'll understand. Cheer up, "Daniel 11:15".
Have you even seen Dr Who? Or read Jean Paul Satre? Broaden your visions.
72 hours on the Virgin tech support line.
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Tuesday 17th November 2015 23:38 GMT Danny 2
Paris pal anecdote
I'm looking in particulary for a persian doctor who used to volunteer at that theatre over a decade ago, and the guy who introduced us.
His name at the time was Ahmed, he changed it when his white French wife gave birth "to stop dog shit being put through our letter box" in the posh apartment they lived in. I hate to think what it's like for them now assuming he is okay. He told me a lovely story though that's worth sharing.
His father brought him and his brother and mother to Paris when he was a toddler, because his communist grandfather had shot the local Imam in Algeria.
As children they'd ask their dad, "Papa, why can't we go to the mosque with all the other children?"
"Because we worship your mother, she is our only god we have to obey, and so going to a mosque would be blasphemous".
Even as an adult he still wouldn't go inside a mosque for fear of his life, though he insisted I did to see how beautiful it was. He explained, there wasn't just the religious tradition to arabs, there was the wine and song and poetry tradition. Me and him got drunk on Scotch and were the first people to translate this into English: Give me the Flute - Gibran Khalil Gibran
"
Give me the flute, and sing
immortality lies in a song
and even after we’ve perished
the flute continues to lament
"
Although our translation suffered from our whisky, hence the link.
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 08:49 GMT Micha Roon
Vigilantism with public approval is still vigilantism
Illegal actions even with good intent is still illegal and must be prosecuted. The resources of the states are spread thin enough to not put more strain on them by attacking arbitrary targets.
Super heroes must stay in comic books and movies. This is real life
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Wednesday 18th November 2015 20:00 GMT Joe Gurman
Speech
""A website is speech. It is not a bomb." Pretty clearly, Mr. Prince is unfamiliar with Mr. Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and Schenk v. United States (1920), in which Justice Holmes wrote in the unanimous decision of the US Supreme Court that, "[T]he First Amendment could not be understood to provide an absolute right, and would not protect a person 'falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.'"
I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but people with assault rifles and explosives, and an announced intention to murder innocent citizens of a democracy, would appear to present a somewhat greater threat than the fellow falsely shouting fire in a theater (or the antiwar and anti-defat activists in Schenk). It follows that providing them with a soapbox is not an exercise of a right, but a commercial decision trading monetary gain for spreading terror.