"My client is a keen Monopoly player, m'lud."
Spaniard trousers €60,000 bank error, proceeds directly to jail
A Spanish chap whose bank accidentally deposited €60,000 in his account did what any right-minded customer in his position would have done: he immediately trousered as much cash as possible and then refused to hand it back. The unexpected windfall had been intended for another customer, but dropped into the lap of a 50-year- …
COMMENTS
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Friday 4th September 2015 13:57 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Justice for all
How many banks do you know that are in the habit of gifting their customers large amounts of money without explanation or warning? Even on their birthdays. So you would be very foolish to claim that's what you thought happened.
As they were bailed out and kept into high bonuses with my tax money, I would not be surprised to receive a Thank You, and given the charges for their overdraft letters I would not even consider it excessive. At least, that would be my story and I'd stick with it, but that works better if you have parked the funds elsewhere and have not spent them (just to cover all bases). That would be quite a fun one to ride in court for a few month, they'd probably offer a percentage just to make it go away.
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Friday 4th September 2015 11:11 GMT Jason Bloomberg
Re: Justice for all
Making a clerical error is not a crime.
Taking money that doesn't belong to you is.
Not necessarily. Intending to permanently deprive someone of money usually is but just taking it very likely isn't. It depends upon intent, and, particularly in court, of being able to prove intent.
His mistake was burning through the money. If he had just said 'no; it's mine', and hoped they'd eventually agree and had kept it to pay back when that failed, it would have been much harder to prove intent to permanently deprive, much harder to convict.
His best bet would have been to say he took the money out of his account to keep it safe because he feared it would disappear as quickly as it appeared and insist the bank pay him for inconvenience and costs incurred looking after that money being as it was their mistake. He can threaten to, or actually, take them to court if they won't and also has a legitimate counter claim when they take him to court.
Not that I have any plans as to what I would do should a windfall hit my account :-)
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Friday 4th September 2015 17:57 GMT Matt Bryant
Re: Jason Bloomberg Re: Justice for all
"....It depends upon intent, and, particularly in court, of being able to prove intent....." Well, kind of. Actually, the prosecution only needs to show that there was no way you could reasonably consider the money yours. The "I thought it was a gift" excuse would not stand up well in court as it would be unreasonable to believe that a bank would just give you such an amount without a some form of communication or statement from the bank as that's their normal procedure. As you point out, the chap in the article demonstarted his intent by not querying the surprise amount with the bank but immediately trying to remove it, then denying his actions.
The examples most often used in such cases are the restaurant bill, both incorrect and unpaid. If you skip the restaurant without paying your bill it is unreasonable for you to claim you did not know you had to pay the bill as paying for food at a restaurant is the norm, i.e. you must have chosen not to pay. The one that surprises most people is the incorrect bill - if you are undercharged but leave the restaurant knowing you have underpaid you are actually committing theft by breach of contract, though the prosecution would have to show that it was reasonably likely that you realised the billing mistake but still did not pay the full price. In such cases, pleading poor maths skills might get you off as you could claim the bill was too complex for you and you assumed it was correct, "honest mistake, M'lord", but if there is a witness that heard you say "let's go before they realise" then you are stuffed as you have shown intent.
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Saturday 5th September 2015 04:05 GMT John Tserkezis
Re: Justice for all
"Taking money that doesn't belong to you is."
Every tried to "right" a clerical error the bank made in THEIR favour? Ever tried getting that back without the bank treating you like the customer piece of shit you are? Because that's what it's like.
It's a one way street my friend, and every road leads AWAY from you.
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Friday 4th September 2015 09:13 GMT Graham Marsden
Re: One Law for the Rich...
Once, a long time ago, I had a bank put a £35.00 rent cheque (I *said* it was a long time ago) through as £3500.00!
It took almost six months to the fall-out sorted out, even after they'd credited me the money back (which took them over three weeks to "investigate") they then charged me overdraft fees, plus fees for Direct Debits which had failed which then caused me to go overdrawn again...
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Friday 4th September 2015 08:48 GMT Ole Juul
Re: Not worth it
I'd say you need a believable story. First, your laptop with banking details gets stolen . . . etc. etc. Unfortunately most countries have about a $10 thousand dollar cash or transaction limit at which point the bank is legally obliged to make a report. That one is going to be difficult to get around. So worth it or not, I can't see how you can get away with a large amount.
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Friday 4th September 2015 09:13 GMT Khaptain
Re: Not worth it
"Unfortunately most countries have about a $10 thousand dollar cash or transaction limit at which point the bank is legally obliged to make a report"
That's why you need a Swiss/Bahamas/Offshore banker in the equation, they know how to deal with these "minor" issues....
There are many ways of making money disappear without the skilled and deft handiwork of Penn & Teller.
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Friday 4th September 2015 14:22 GMT Spaceman Spiff
Re: Not worth it
In the USofA it is now $5K before they have to report it... I own a property abroad when my sister is selling. I have to go through impossible shenanigans to avoid getting improperly dinged by the US govt! I don't mind paying the 10% long term gains on the property to the IRS, but I DO object to their ability to sequester my $$ before I declare it on my tax filing. I've owned the property since 2003.
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Friday 4th September 2015 10:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
Getting away with it
If I remember correctly, someone in the USA received an accidental transfer of a huge sum. She put the money into a trust fund for her daughter, then claimed that she had believed that the money was a gift from an anonymous benefactor, then, presumably, declared herself bankrupt. In effect, she kept the money, for her daughter, without going to prison. I'm not sure what the options are for the bank to get the money back from someone (the daughter) to whom it was given "in good faith", though it's certainly an interesting theoretical question for amateur lawyers so I expect some follow-ups...
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Friday 4th September 2015 10:19 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Not worth it
An ex colleague of mine was doing the normal treasury work for a smallish company. He sent about £100k off to the overnight money markets one day. When he checked the company's account the next day £7 million had come back!
He did consider transferring it to his own account and seeing how much interest he could earn on it before having to give it back.
Clearly that should be enough to make the trip to Brasil.
What was the calculation in the Cryptonomicon? A programn that created an index of property prices and inflation to work out the exact amount of "fuck you money" - where once achieved you never had to worry about money again.
I think for me I'd want a nice place in the city and another in the country. So maybe a couple of million. Then £50k a year spending money would probably be enough - although I do actually fancy a boat, which ups that quite a bit.
But things like places abroad and boats can be hired, just as easily as owned. Unless there's somewhere that you love and keep going back to multiple times a year. If you're buying property in London or New York as an investment, why not also let it out for extra cash, and get a suite at the best hotel for the week a year you might actually want to be there?
You should be able to buy a portfolio of property and shares that gives you well over 5% return over the long term - so £12 million should do. £2 mil to spend, £10m to invest for an income.
Although "fuck-off money" means not having to count. I've got modest tastes, but I'd want to do quite a bit of long-haul flying, and no-one wants to go cattle class. Those first class tickets soon add up. So maybe £22m, to give £100k a year income is better?
Then you've got to consider the cost of laundering that kind of money as well.
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Friday 4th September 2015 11:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Spaniard trousers €60,000 bank error, proceeds directly to
please don't answer, skin a banker.
Why? Do their hides make good car seats? I suppose a skilled leather worker could get the banker's face tanned nicely and stitched in as the very back of the seat cushion, so you drive around rubbing your....well, y'know what I'm saying.
But then again, leather seats are a bit bourgeois. What about flaying them all in one piece, putting a fur lining in it, to make a very alternative onesie? I'll bet Fred Goodwin would command a good price for his complete hide. Important question: Would you wear your banker onesie "nude" or put another layer of clothes on top?
Now, any thoughts on the flayed meat? We could keep 'em alive and wrap them in cling film for the rest of society to laugh at. Or mash them up for pet food. Or sell them to the pre-prepared food industry, since they aren't choosy about what meat they use. Or just take them to the nearest zoo and feed them to the lions.
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Friday 4th September 2015 19:45 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Spaniard trousers €60,000 bank error, proceeds directly to
Whatever you've taken, I'd lay it off for a while
Not sure which of us that was intended for, but if it was me, you'd probably be appalled by the thoughts I have that don't make it to the keyboard. It's a bit of a curse much of the time, but boy, can it be fun at times.
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Friday 4th September 2015 09:04 GMT Andy Non
Idiot bank clerks.
One day £3000 mysteriously appeared in my current account with the NatWest. A few days later when visiting my dad I mentioned it to him and he said "That's odd, the other day I went to the bank (same branch) and asked the clerk to transfer £3000 from my savings to current account."
My dad contacted the bank and the unexpected windfall disappeared from my account and into my dad's. Very careless bank clerk. Don't know what happened to him/her, probably nothing.
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Friday 4th September 2015 09:42 GMT Dan McIntyre
Windfalls
I was once paid double by my employer, at that time a local council where I was working in the housing benefit office.
They wrote to me asking for the money to be returned, but stating that I wasn't legally obliged to as it had been their mistake. I returned the money. Wasn't worth the hassle as I had to work there at the end of the day - didn't want grief from them.
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Friday 4th September 2015 09:56 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Re: Windfalls
As I understand the current law, you can't keep the money from an error like that. Unless the employer choose to let you. But if you've gone out and spent it, they're not allowed to just not pay you the next month, or demand the whole lot back in one go. So you get it as an interest free loan, to pay back in monthly installments.
Although HMRC can decide at the last minute that they've calculated your PAYE wrong, so that you get paid almost nothing for the last 2 months of the financial year, because the rules are different for them.
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Friday 4th September 2015 10:35 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Windfalls
That sounds about right.
IANAL but I understand that UK law is along the lines of, "you can't keep it if it was obviously an error".
So for example if a company accidentally sends you a big sum of prize money you can keep it because you might legitimately think you'd won their prize draw.
On the other hand if it mysteriously appears in your account for no apparent reason then you can't keep it because you well know it isn't yours.
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Friday 4th September 2015 10:59 GMT J P
Re: Windfalls
It used to be the case (under the 18something-or-other Bills of Exchange Act) that acceptance by a bank of a clearly deficient document would 'rectify' the document - by honouring something which they should have realised should not be honoured, they made themselves liable for that error.
Or in other words, a personal cheque for John Smith signed (legibly) Mickey Mouse or equivalent, if honoured, then became binding on the bank that honoured it, regardless of whether there were funds available on the original personal account - even if the cheque were otherwise clearly deficient, eg for £1m on an overdrawn current account. The principle was based on something to do with international letters of credit, but at the time was still also applicable to personal cheques.
Can't remember all the details, or whether it's still effective, as it was a long, long time ago that I did a Masters in International Commercial Law, but I do remember discussing in detail with an ex whose friend had written her a £1m cheque signed Winston Churchill...
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Friday 4th September 2015 10:18 GMT wowfood
So just to confirm.
If the bank accidently transfers £60,000 into my current account, and I transfer said money to pay off my mortgage. When the bank subsequently asks for that money back. I would effectively be up a tree without a paddle.
I wonder if there's a statute of limitations on this kind of thing, if it's in your account for 12 months unnoticed, you get to keep it :P
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Friday 4th September 2015 11:02 GMT Steven Jones
Re: So just to confirm.
Unnoticed by whom? If you didn't notice, then I'd worry about your ability to manage your finances. However, if you did notice it, and just let is sit there hoping nobody else would spot it with the intention of spending it eventually, then at the very least it's repayable through the civil law and, most likely, it's actually an offence. It's roughly the equivalent of finding a wallet stuffed with money in the street and not handing it into the police (although nobody is going to care much over trivial amounts, like a lost £1 coin). People have been prosecuted for such things, like this couple who found a winning lottery ticket and cashed it in.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8129534.stm
Of course laws will vary across the World. This is the position in the UK.
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Friday 4th September 2015 11:21 GMT Matt Siddall
Re: So just to confirm.
From what I remember of working in the pensions world, if we accidentally overpaid someone's pension and didn't notice for 6 years, we couldn't recover it (or at least could only recover the extra paid in the last 6 years) - I believe the same limit would apply here.
tl;dr: statute of limitations is likely to be 6 years for this sort of thing (in the UK at least)
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Friday 4th September 2015 14:14 GMT AndrueC
Re: Handling charge for sending a letter.
Parcel Farce recently charged me a 'handling fee' for holding onto a parcel while I paid the import VAT of £17.50. The handling charge was £8 and they only had to hold on to it for two nights. From talking to the exporter it seems they paid less than that to get the item across the Atlantic.
Nice work if you can get it :-/
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Friday 4th September 2015 10:35 GMT Steve Todd
If I remember correctly
You are allowed to withdraw the money and place it in a high interest account. You have to return it on request, but you can keep any interest earned. You should inform the bank that you believe there to have been a mistake. If they don't request the money back inside of 6 months in those circumstances it becomes yours.
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Friday 4th September 2015 13:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
The bank is indeed right, but that does not mean you won't get your money back. I'm sure they will be happy to contact the recipient for you and ask them to return it.
At least, here in France, whoever gets money by mistake is bound to give it back. The cause of the mistake is irrelevant (Code Civil, article 1376, promulgated more than one year before the Battle of Trafalgar).
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Friday 4th September 2015 14:06 GMT I ain't Spartacus
Simon B,
The bank aren't allowed to steal the money. I believe this is one of those legally complicated areas. Sometimes, the bank are allowed to just acknowledge the error, and sweep the money back. Sometimes they'd have to ask, and only pay you back for your mistake, once they're paid.
What they wouldn't be allowed to do is get the money back, and leave you out of pocket.
In the case of an erroneous transfer on their part, then they would try to get the cash back, but would have to compensate the account holder they took the cash from.
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Friday 4th September 2015 12:02 GMT Andy Landy
titles, schmitles
a year or two ago our lovely accounts lady came by and said sorry we accidentally overpaid you this month, and is it ok if we just pay you that much less so it balances out?
i was like "yeah that's fine... errr... hang on, how much are we talking here?"
her: "three pence"
me: "ooh, a life-changing sum!"
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Friday 4th September 2015 13:46 GMT jzl
Re: Sh...
I love the way guys like that try to get back "at Natwest" for an error made by an employee. It's as if they think Natwest is an actual person with feelings which can be offended. It's not. It's a company, and a big one at that.
His actions simply gave some Natwest branch employees a day of excitement to remember. They all still got paid.
The whole episode is probably recorded somewhere in a Natwest profit and loss ledger under "incidental expenses", and that's the extent of the effect of his protest.
My office at a large corporation a few years back was invaded by protesters. We all just thought it was funny and a light diversion from the day's work.
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Friday 4th September 2015 16:46 GMT Roger Mew
What is good for the goose.
Some years ago a certain bank told the legal department that a client was £100,000 in debt and they got the various documentation, sheriff and bailiffs went out to the man's house. He was not a happy bunny, these guys turned up when he was at work, conned his wife to let them in, she rang him and he shot home. Conned the bailiff to go into the garage and locked him in. He then called the police. Oh was he in the doo doo. But wait, the bank had got 1 number wrong, the man actually had £100,000 + in his bank account and a load more in a savings account. He insisted that the bank return all the money, the bank paid a load of money to the police, bailiffs etc to shut up and the man wanted the £2590,000 in cash the next morning. He got it. He then paid it all into a rival bank, in cash.
This incident happened about 25 years ago in Norfolk. Thing is the bank should also have been prosecuted, they did exactly the same and all they got was an expensive lesson.
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Monday 7th September 2015 08:27 GMT Anonymous Coward
Here is how to KEEP the cash
A little trick I saw done in a divorce case would have got him to keep the 60k.
You spend the money at a Casino, you then have a paper trail that ends right there.
They can't prove you did not lose it and you do not need to gamble a penny, you convert to chips, enjoy the free dinner you get at Casino's and then convert your chips to cash.
Now can someone tell me how to get a bank error in my favour?!!