Kaminario gets triple vision with 3D 3-layer flash

Kaminario is joining Dell in the all-flash array (AFA) war with a capacity-rising and price-dropping K2 array using the same Samsung 3D TLC flash drives. The new, sixth generation – as we see it – K2, actually v5.5, offers an average price of under $1/GB usable, half that of the gen-5 product introduced in May 2014. Dell’s SC …

[Anonymous Coward]

The Dell TLC array says $1.66 / GB raw. Kaminario says $1 / GB usable. What dedupe/compression rate is Kaminario assuming? If 3.6:1, then they are actually close to $4 / GB raw. If 5:1, then $5 / GB raw, more than triple Dell's cost.

It's getting hard to make sense of these pricing numbers since vendors sometimes quote with dedupe, without dedupe, with RAID, without RAID, with spares, without spares, with compression, without compression, with controllers, without controllers, with support, without support, and even then, use an ambiguous term like "usable".

Someone should really try to normalize these various vendor #'s so customers can understand what's going on......

[Lynrd]

Raw capacity is irrelevant

Dell or anyone touting raw capacity is helping no one. Usable or effective capacity is what should be focused on. Those numbers can get a bit soft based on the nature of a particular data set. For example - if you have a database, I hope you don't expect big de-dupe numbers, because if you're database de-dupes well, you probably just have a crappy database.

By factoring typical numbers for de-dupe and compression, as well as file system and RAID overhead, you should be able to come up with an effective capacity for a particular use-case - but it may be a fantastical fiction for another shop next door.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Raw capacity is irrelevant

Lynrd,

Actually, by your own admission, touting "usable" cost per gigabyte is truly helping no one, since "it may be a fantastical fiction for another shop next door" as you said. You also have not addressed the real issue: that Kaminario touts price leadership but in fact quotes a cost per usable price that is 3x higher than at least one alternative. Rather disingenuous.

[highlander1]

Re: Raw capacity is irrelevant

http://kaminario.com/blog/flash-economics-choosing-right-ssd/

Read this and see if it helps you understand flash and the nuances of developing an architecture that really handles NAND technology correctly...it was published today.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell quotes raw because they have marginal to no data reduction technologies and are retrofitting flash into a platform architected for disk. Two totally different beasts. What really matters is what effective storage an end user is going to see on a particular system for THEIR workloads. That's why its so important to bring candidates in and run them through the paces on your own workloads- then you know what's best- regardless of data reduction strategies etc. Nothing wrong with good inline dedupe, compression and thin- all good tools. But before those things are applied- the architecture must be efficient with protection- i.e. efficient RAID strategy that protects and is optimized on eating little capacity, and must handle Metadata and its overhead WELL. These are other critical differentiators. A legacy platform retrofitting flash technologies - i.e. Dell, is not as compelling (no pun intended) for the long haul and what's to come as the new breed of AFA players who built from the ground up to for flash. Times are changing fast! Kaminario definitely has the experience and DNA to deliver solid technology in the flash world, they started building good DRAM solutions 6 years ago and matured into this new platform.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its good to see vendors starting to use 3D TLC NAND, however its still relatively young technology. What is the reliability of 3D TLC NAND? also Kaminario tout an AVERAGE usable $1/GB, so that is after data reduction and an average over the solutions they sell, so what is the real cost? averages and effective usable pricing doesn't show the truth, its annoying when vendors do that.

[CoreInfMan]

Usable is to variable

Totally disagree that vendors should quote usable figures. There are too many variables with regards to the type of data that can be stored and how well it compresses or dedupes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Usable is to variable

How about true usable after overheads and effective usable at a given reduction ratio ?

Nice to see they're at least treating the TLC drives properly, rather than Dell's whack-em in and hope no one writes to them model.

[highlander1]

Re: Usable is to variable

Kaminario CEO Dani Golan said the sub-$1 per usable GB price "is not a marketing stunt." He said it assumes a data reduction ratio of about 4.5 to 1 using the array’s always-on, built-in inline deduplication and compression technology. The company guarantees a minimum of 3-to-1 data reduction, but Golan claimed customers in the field have seen an average of close to 6-to-1 data reduction. "We were conservative. If you take our average [price], it’s well below $1 per gig," Golan said. "We’re not trying to market something aggressively which in reality is not true, or true in very niche cases." With heavy database transaction workloads, customers can expect a reduction ratio of between 2:1 and 5:1, according to Kaminario CTO Shachar Fienblit. Denser 3D triple-level cell (TLC) NAND flash technology from Samsung also contributes to the low cost per GB. Golan said the 3D TLC SSDs are "data-center-ready" and suitable for all workloads, even high-transaction databases.

Golan said the K2 system enhances the reliability of 3D TLC NAND in several ways. It reduces the number of writes through RAM-based deduplication and byte-aligned compression. It also uses sophisticated algorithms to conserve writes on a DRAM level, balance the writes across all available SSDs and write in a sequential manner to prevent hot spots. 3D NAND TLC is the future. It is the only way that we are going to continue to be able to ride the NAND cost curve that we’ve gotten comfortable with over the past few years. "What we see in reality in heavy, heavy testing is that we can save between five to 10 times the writes," Golan said. "So, effectively an SSD that has a spec of one random read a day for the whole capacity for five years, we’re converting it to a much higher endurance of five to 10 writes per day. Through system-level manipulation, we’re helping the SSDs."

Golan noted that Kaminario guarantees the 3D TLC NAND drives for seven years "no matter what," even though the manufacturer guarantees them for only five years.

[RollTide14]

Re: Usable is to variable

I think it should be based off of useable capacity not "logical". Take away RAID, right sizing, blah blah blah and talk about the useable capacity before any efficiencies.

You are absolute right...the dedupe/compression ratios are never as advertised. Majority of peoples efficiencies in their calculations come from thin provisioning.