Women are fleeing from the digital sector, reckons UK.gov report

Fewer women are working in the digital sector than a decade ago, according to a report by the UK Commission for Employment and Skills quango. Currently just one quarter of employees are women in digital businesses such as software development, visual effects and computer games - down from one-third in 2002 - according to the …

[Anonymous Coward]

More likely it's all the fear-mongering idiot self-declared "feminists" who yell constantly about the "boys club" and call everything a misogynist patriarchal conspiracy to keep women naked and barefoot. Creates something of a hostile environment, you might say.

[Anonymous Coward]

Self-fulfilling prophecy

You beat me to it - this was my first reaction to the article and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it. It's a field where the balance is likely to always be off the magical 50-50 that our glorious overlords require but the environment has been improving quite a lot over the years and for a while looked like it might have been 'settling' to an almost stable figure.

[Ilsa Loving]

Or maybe... just maybe... it's because they don't want to deal with obnoxious asshats like you. Just because you refuse to admit that you're part of the problem, doesn't change the fact that you are.

[Hollerith 1]

Or not, @AC?

Dear original AC,

You say " fear-mongering idiot self-declared "feminists" who yell constantly about the "boys club" and call everything a misogynist patriarchal conspiracy". Has this happened to you? Do you know of women who call themselves feminists? (BTW, why the quotation marks around the word in your text?) Have you sat in an IT department feeling hostile to all women because some woman accused you all of being in a conspiracy? Have you ever been troubled by real doubt and insecurity caused by accusations?

Kinda thinking not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Or not, @AC?

There are feminists and then there are "feminists". The former are like my mother, who ran a large department in a major city council for a decade, or my wife, who would rather go homeless than accept a handout based on her gender. They work for their equality. They fight for their place.

The later are whining little children who want everything on a plate and screech about the patriarchy whenever they don't get their way.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Or not, @AC?

There seems to be some very bitter forum feminists in EU and UK, that will hijack any thread regardless what its about and pick anything for a hook to roll out their special purpose heavy artillery.

I said, look, I have no beef with you, but make your own thread, I'm trying to talk about the ill effects of TV soap operas on small children here.

There's no automatism with human beings that makes a woman or a man more or less dominant, except for societies brainwashing of children. Some (of either gender) are strong regardless of that and other's are not. You can't force every woman into one thing or the other. Ok, so there's some people that try, but it never worked in the first place, though the church was pretty effective with their nasty methods of just burning people at the stake.

So I can understand if some women get bitter about it, but there's no universal solution or fix, it can only be individual. Ideologies are always at odds with reality.

And we all know what's happening to that charter of liberty right now, hard won by our ancestors, its getting shredded in the war of the ultra rich against everyone else.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they don't like IT.

[Trevor_Pott]

Most IT jobs are pretty shit. IT is thankless, the pay is bad, the stress is intense, the demands to work 24/7 are incessant...the list goes on.

Every now and again some wag feels they need to post about how great their specific job is, but they are the exception that proves the rule. The fact that having a job that only demands you work the number of hours specified in your local labour legislation is something nerds use to measure the size of their penis is itself proof that IT jobs, in general, are ass.

Every time someone whines about how there are no women in IT, I want to slap them with a salmon and yell "that's because they're smarter than us, you blithering idiot!"

If you want women in IT, make IT jobs less shit.

[seven of five]

> IT is thankless, the pay is bad, the stress is intense, the demands to work 24/7 are incessant...

otoh, this is exactly like raising children.

[Trevor_Pott]

Which is exactly why I've never spawned any larva.

[John Sanders]

Having children is not mandatory.

But if you do not have them at some point while you're still young, you are missing on a very important part of life.

[Trevor_Pott]

Re: Having children is not mandatory.

"But if you do not have them at some point while you're still young, you are missing on a very important part of life."

No, I'm not. I have two cats, a bearded dragon, several hundred fish, a long tailed grass lizard and a Mediterranean house gecko. I am full up on other organisms that believe they are the emperor of the universe and that I am their subject, thanks.

I understand that it's a universal thing amongst parents that they need to delude themselves into believing that child rearing is somehow "special" and 'rewarding" and other such things. I don't buy it for a second.

I get all the "special" and "rewarding" I need when I have a kitty jump up on the couch beside me, flop over and purr like a goddamned lawnmower for an hour while I rub his belly. Or when the beardie climbs up bed and park herself directly on my chest and promptly passes out.

As hard as it is for breeders to understand, there is no part of me that desires children. There is no part of my life that is void without them, there is no space in my desires or happiness that they need to fill.

The next generation should be grateful that I am not passing on my genes. They are not good genes. Humanity gets a little bit less awful, and I live a contented life. I think this "not spawning" thing has it's merits.

[Hollerith 1]

Re: Having children is not mandatory.

Mr Pott, I salute you. I, too, tire of parents sure that I am missing out on one of life's greatest privileges, or that I have an emotional or genetic need that, while it remains unfulfilled, is destined to make my life feel like a hollow mockery. I personally think they either lack imagination (that a satisfying life can be lived in other ways) or resent us for not bending our necks to the yoke of parenthood.

[earl grey]

Re: Having children is not mandatory.

I think this "not spawning" thing has it's merits

and frankly, we wish more would follow your ways.

[David 132]

I tried reproducing by cellular mitosis, but it gave me a splitting head ache.

[Anonymous Coward]

Children are yours. You don't get anything out of shitty IT jobs other than a smaller than it should paycheck.

[Trevor_Pott]

"Children are yours. You don't get anything out of shitty IT jobs other than a smaller than it should paycheck."

Uh...no. Children are human beings that are born with a full suite of inalienable rights. They are not property. They belong to themselves and noone else.

Your paycheque should be paying your mortgage, car and other material goods. You get to keep those. Those material goods are yours.

[Paul]

Being a sysadmin or IT support like parenting

You spend a lot of time fixing up the s**t left behind by other people, dealing with people who feel they're more important than anyone else, dealing with feelings of entitlement, dealing with people who are willfully ignorant and unable to learn.

It's like being a carer in a teenager's foster home sometimes.

A woman who's already a mother might not want a job that's like being at home.

[codejunky]

@ Trevor_Pott

"Most IT jobs are pretty shit. IT is thankless, the pay is bad, the stress is intense, the demands to work 24/7 are incessant...the list goes on."

While I can believe you have and probably had these experiences in IT it does make me grateful for the jobs I have done. I love the work I do and I honestly enjoy IT. In fact the only soul destroying job of absolute hell was working retail during university and that was mostly due to the staff.

[DiViDeD]

Optional Title

Oh Trevor!

I surely can't be the only person in IT who loves his or her job. 35 years now, man and old man and I wouldn't swap any of it, even with the loony business people and the 'super users' who just want me to 'add another zero. How hard can THAT be?'

From wheelie chair volley ball and networked X Wing vs Tie Fighter all the way down to occasionally getting some actual work done I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

Or maybe I just need to get out more. Or less. One or the other.

[John Sanders]

Re: Optional Title

You're not alone, I love it too.

At the same time I can perfectly understand why women don't.

[Trevor_Pott]

Re: Optional Title

"I surely can't be the only person in IT who loves his or her job. "

Oddly enough, if you'd actually read my comment you would have noticed that I had already predicted that response and discussed it. From my previous comment:

"Every now and again some wag feels they need to post about how great their specific job is, but they are the exception that proves the rule. The fact that having a job that only demands you work the number of hours specified in your local labour legislation is something nerds use to measure the size of their penis is itself proof that IT jobs, in general, are ass."

Stop being predictable!

[Anonymous Coward]

@ trev potts

Could be worse, you could be a mopper-upper at a peep show.

[David 132]

Re: @ trev potts

Could be worse, you could be a mopper-upper at a peep show.

Or "chief b*llock-catcher at the eunuch factory", a particularly poor occupation in the Roman Empire mentioned in Chelmsford 123, as I recall.

Mind you, that's also a sexist job, because it takes balls.

[Mnot Paranoid]

Re: @ trev potts

"Do you know how much the average jizz-mopper earns per hour?"

0.7 Internet Points for answer

0.3 Internet Points for the reference

[jelabarre59]

That's been my thought. Perhaps women are smarter than us men in realizing what a dead-end the IT field has become. Certainly no future in it unless you're working in some dirt-floor shack in some 3rd world country. In that case you're probably running the world's data centers (presuming you can keep the dirt and cow-poop out of the servers).

[John Lilburne]

Maybe they don't like bronies?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps because it doesn't involve handbags, shoes and make-up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Trust me it does

Just go and visit an IT company somewhere East of the Berlin/Prague line.

The difference is that they are paid up to 5x (relative to the country average salaries) and respectively 2x+ (expressed in effective buying power) more than in the UK.

On top of that in the upper tier for MVPs you can see benefit packages with up to 2 years (yes two years) paid maternity leave. Try getting two years paid maternity leave from a UK employer. Go on, try that. I am going to buy the popcorn.

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps because it doesn't involve handbags, shoes and make-up.

The developer in the office next to me has all of those. But he's still a nice guy anyway.

[theOtherJT]

Risky thing to say as a man, I know but...

Could it be that this isn't actually a problem?

I mean, if there are lines out the door of recruiting offices around the world where capable women are being rejected in favour of less capable men, then yes - that's clearly a serious problem - but we have been hiring quite a bit over the last couple of years and so far out of about 100 people who've applied, only 5 have been women.

I know it's not a popular viewpoint and everything, but perhaps women - on average - just don't find our industry appealing? I wouldn't be very surprised. I mean even I don't find our industry appealing, and if I'd had a better idea what I was getting into earlier on, I probably would have quit whilst there was still time and retrained as something else.

I mean, let me paint you a picture here, and lets see if it resonates with any of you:

I spend most of my time in isolation in a dark, noisy, overly hot office, on my own, staring into the abyss of a cheap TFT which gives me headaches if I forget to take my half hourly breaks. I rarely see the other staff I work with, although it feels more like "for" because when I do see them it's only ever because something is broken - in which case I'm already working on it and I want them to go away - or because they have somehow managed to raise ignorance about IT to a fine art, and brandish it about like a shield preventing them from having to take any responsibility for "losing" important emails or documents about once a week.

Neither way are they making my working life better by turning up in my office and talking to me. I don't _like_ interacting with my co-workers. But then I don't like interacting with people much in general. Being an irritable anti-social bastard isn't a uniquely male trait I know, but you gotta admit you meet more of them than women who feel the same.

Oh, and then there's this:

http://www.stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks

Seriously, is there anyone here who _doesn't_ feel that's what it's like? With the camel. Anyone? We're not crazy. We're being _driven_ crazy.

If women are actively avoiding IT, perhaps the problem isn't the way IT treats women. Perhaps it's the way it treats _everyone_ and most women are just either smart enough not to put themselves through this, or not prepared to put up with it in exchange for a life where you don't have to wear a suit or talk to people much.

[DropBear]

Re: Risky thing to say as a man, I know but...

Hang on - that camel thing was crazy...?

[Hollerith 1]

Re: Risky thing to say as a man, I know but...

Well said. In many ways, and I say as one who is in it, it holds many griefs and not many rewards. I find the best I can do is to take a professional pride in my own work, as I get little thanks and the worst office in the building.

[Anonymous Coward]

Curious....

...that the high male participation in IT is somehow a structural problem deserving of government attention and much hand wringing by liberals and feminists alike, but the high and rising female participation in medicine, nursing, veterinary work, law, public relations, marketing is no problem at all.

The logical solution Guardian readers would probably approve of is 50:50 legal quotas, but that needs to be backed up by allocation of roles, because it doesn't follow that all those women choosing law or medicine.

So, not wishing to generalise the feminist agenda at all: Hairy, unwashed, sexist, white males of IT, better sign yourself up to a basic social skills course, because in future you might find that you've got to give up the comfortable binary world of IT and become a doctor, teacher or a vet.

[Malcolm 5]

Re: Curious....

I think the thing that triggers the worry is the skill shortage - we don't seem to be worrying as much about running out of doctors. So if we think we are failing to find enough people widening the pool who have the skills you are choosing from is one possible solution.

[Hollerith 1]

Re: Curious....

Ledswinger, there is a lot of handwringing when boys do less well than girls in school, and governments look into how to right that wrong. Although I have never understood why it was a bad thing. Heaven knows, the boys don't seem to suffer when they get to the job market.

I think chaps in IT, who have up till now works for a boys' club, are able to indulge themselves in a way that chaps in, say, Finance or Legal or Marketing cannot. I suspect that change will happen, eventually, because simple good manners should not be beyond anyone, especially the bright minds (and I am not being snarky) within IT.

[dogged]

The only possible solution is that all women are forced to work in IT. No woman should be permitted to choose any other career and it is irrelevant whether or not they actually like IT or have any desire to learn the skills or be interested in the concepts. Mandatory. All women. Until this disgusting situation is dealt with.

Also darts. Women are horrendously under-represented in professional top tier darts and therefore all women will now be forced, by law, to play darts at least five times a week or face a custodial sentence in a special darts training centre.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh.. I have to learn ANOTHER skill? Oh, ok, ok, hand me the damned darts. But don't you think a foam LART is less likely to upset Health and Safety than darts?

[DanDanDan]

Another skill? It's just like a standard UML diagram; they both have arrows you know. Oh and, uh, yeah... can you consistently hit treble 20 in less than a week's time, only I promised the customer you'd have it ready for a product launch demo on Friday?

[Anonymous Coward]

(chuckle) nice one!

- and will triple 18 do instead? It's a tad easier..

[Rande Knight]

High WIS

Or women are wiser than men with aspergers and decide there's better working conditions elsewhere.

It's pretty simple to get more women in - just offer home working and/or flexible working hours and training. It won't give parity, but it will help a lot.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: High WIS

There's a point to be made there actually.

Is there a gender divide in the incidence of the kinds of mental issues which result in an aptitude toward IT positions?

[breakfast]

Re: High WIS

Jeff Atwood talked about about this a while back: http://blog.codinghorror.com/software-developers-and-aspergers-syndrome/ ( with interesting follow-up pertinent to the original story here: http://blog.codinghorror.com/what-can-men-do/ )

The ratio of autism diagnosis is 4:1 in favour of males, but the incidence of female autism spectrum problems is higher than most people realise because women tend to manifest symptoms a little differently - possibly as a result of cultural conditioning - and they can often go without being diagnosed.

[silent_count]

He said: "Initiatives like TechFuture Girls that encourage young women to consider a career in this dynamic sector will play an important role in addressing this issue.”

Why? Is there any virtue to having a 50-50 gender split in the IT, or any other, sector?

I don't see any urgency to get men into fields which are dominated by women, and I'm ok with that too, because I don't see what's wrong with accepting that some fields appeal more to some population groups than others.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well said, how many male primary school teachers do you see ?

[Rich 11]

Well said, how many male primary school teachers do you see ?

Now ask yourself why you don't see many male primary school teachers. Check your answer with a primary school teacher (male or female).

[Anonymous Coward]

@ Rich 11

Actually my best mate is a male primary school teacher (year 5) and what he hates the most is female politics.

[sabroni]

I'm in non way inconvenienced by the status quo

so I'm fine with it.

[Rich 11]

If you'd hired a woman for the job, what can you use in place of "greybeard"?

VAX expert?

[Phil O'Sophical]

Yes, but I mean if you want to imply that the person was a general guru and had a wide knowledge of older systems.

Fits most of the VAX experts that I know...

[DiViDeD]

If you'd hired a woman for the job, what can you use in place of "greybeard"?

Going purely on my experience with a senior (female) AS/400 developer we have at my current sire, "greybeard" would be fine.

[msknight]

Arse backwards

Instead of doing a report on the people that won't come in to the sector, why don't they do a report on WHY women are leaving the sector and work from there?

If it's because they can't get an iPhone in pink, then that tells you all you need to know.

On the other hand, if it's because they're belittled by the blokes, then their sales patter might as well be, "Come work in the lions den! Get your arse bitten off!"

... but unless someone actually does some bleedin' research to find out, we're not going to know!

[Douchus McBagg]

ergh. this again?

positive discrimination is still discrimination.

not being funny, but you don't need a vagina to see that IT sucks. Seems to me if you have a dick, you're dumb enough to put up with it.

Also, How would it feel to know that you got the job, not because you are either the best fit, most suited, capable for the role, but that you simply tick a box. how do your new colleagues feel that their tight budget constraints paid for you? that their time, effort, and energy is going to be spent supporting you? any resentment?

wonder if el'Reg can pull up a similar headline from when the *licks finger, holds in the air* last gov-reshuffle/minister-of-information-appointment/education-secretary-appointment/national-union-of-teachers-conference/political-party-conference happened?

I predict that this is not the last time we will see this type of headline.

[TheProf]

The REAL problem is

Women just aren't taken seriously.

https://www.techfuturegirls.com

Ooh it looks just like KandiKrunch and Aminal X-ing

[Otto is a bear.]

Commoditized career

There's a general trend in IT to de-skill jobs, probably more so that anywhere else. I work a lot on outsource bids, and the "Production" side of the business is always talking about how to lower the skill value of delivery staff and providing a commodity product. Frighteningly they seem to be succeeding, but then our customers always want their IT mess for less, which equates to less people working for less money, on less kit, with less tools, and for longer hours, but delivering more.

I suspect that the numbers of people wanting to come into the IT industry is dropping across the board, with such a tough entry level environment, would you want to join, regardless of your gender. I'd also wonder about mid-career breaks distorting the numbers.

Still if you want a 60K job in five years, apparently Tube and Train driving is where you want to be, a lot less stress too on a 35 hour week. Requires only GCSE Maths & English, rather than any higher education, and you get paid to train.

https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx

It knocks being a teacher or doctor into a cocked hat as well, even if we can earn a lot more, it takes a lot longer to get there.

But ultimately, I expect it's just the young being feckless and just wanting to be famous.

PS. Try and find a male Nursery Nurse, now that really is a badly paid minimum wage job with long hours and lots of responsibility.

[efestnetz]

cultural marxism

wants to spread the ideas which worked. sio well in the ussr. thats all.

[Hollerith 1]

Re: cultural marxism

Um, no. Do you understand the basic tenets of Marxism? Your comments does not make sense. But, of course, I think you mean 'cultural Marxism' in the same sense as 'feminazis'.

[Old Handle]

Re: cultural marxism

I think efestnetz is referring to the Frankfurt School and Critical Theory. Some regard this as a conspiracy theory, but it's not completely illogical. There is if nothing else a certain similarity between their views and those of the least likable branches of feminism. The type who would say "You think you're happy with that receptionist job, but you're actually being oppressed and just don't know it yet."

[Anonymous Coward]

Female priorities are different

Women value secure jobs, predictable work hours and predictable salary and there are very few such jobs in IT. Many tech position are more or less reserved for younger people and many find themselves out of work or in need of re-education when they are in the mid to late 30s. Nearly 80% of IT workers are either unemployed or working outside IT after 40. A life-long carrier in IT is an illusion,

[asdf]

Re: Female priorities are different

>A life-long carrier in IT is an illusion,

Not if you do IT as a support role in another industry and gain lots of domain knowledge then things are pretty stable. I agree code monkey shops are not where its at for a career though.

[Anonymous Coward]

After 20 years doing this dung I wish I had somewhere else to flee towards...

[earl grey]

spent the last 45+ years in IT

Not all of it doing the same thing. Some operations; some coding; some support - you name it. Have seen a lot of very qualified women on the job over those years; as well qualified and capable as any male IT grunt. Also seen a lot of totally unqualified men and women who should have picked another line of work. IT happens. Two of my daughters have gone into IT and I can only hope they stick with it and keep updating their skills. There are careers, but tiny things like what we see from massive companies like Google to not encourage me that they are at all serious about hiring and keeping more female IT personnel. The biggest problem in the US is the H1B crime committed by a lot of large corporations in hiring personnel and firing experienced folks (I'm looking at you Disney), and the tax laws that allow large corporations to outsource their IT personnel, steal most of their pension and generally shaft them and then write off their "hired out" workers (literally every company that outsources their IT who used to be in-house employees).

[ecofeco]

Sexism?

More likely the crappy pay, long hours and mentally ill upper management crippling every project and even daily operations.

For many, IT has become the high tech equivalent of the 19th century.

Oh. I see a few other commentards have said it better than I.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stats

So there is now a quarter of the workforce of 2 million that is female - approx. 500,000. this is down from a third but what of? The article goes on to say that 1.2 million more roles will be created in the next 7 years, so lets assume that in the past 10 years a million roles were created, that would mean that women were a third of the million roles that existed a decade ago. this is approx. 333,333 and a tiny bit.

surely that means more women are employed than ten years ago?

or is this just some statistic to prove whatever you wish it to?

[Brian Allan 1]

The problem...

Females in fast moving industries such as software development can totally lose their relevance simply by taking a pregnancy leave. A few months out of the front lines can leave anyone a dinosaur... And it is darn hard to get back to fully productive!