Cops turn Download Festival into an ORWELLIAN SPY PARADISE As if being ankle deep in a muddy field, surrounded by pretend hippies seemingly re-enacting highlights of the Battle of Waterloo was bad enough, attendees of the aptly named Download Festival will be subjected to a new police facial recognition system, and surveillance of their onsite location and expenditure via the debut of …
"The only way to get around the festival and pay for stuff is to use this system. It’s not possible to opt out of this."
Not a great leap from this to what was always my main concern about a national electronic ID system - the eventuality that a card would be needed for every little transaction.
Why not just stamp people at birth and be done with it.
As alluded to rather wonderfully by David Thewliss' character, Johnny, in Naked:
What can such a specific prophecy mean? What is the mark? Well the mark, Brian, is the barcode, the ubiquitous barcode that you'll find on every bog roll and packet of johnnies and every poxy pork pie, and every fuckin' barcode is divided into two parts by three markers, and those three markers are always represented by the number 6. 6-6-6!"
Aah... now there's a movie to bring a nostalgic tear to the eye....
Of course the Beast will be revealed to be the United States of Europe, and the mark will be a universal ID smart card, without which you will not be able to buy, sell or communicate.
YOU LAUGH NOW BUT WHEN IT ALL GOES TO COCK I SHALL BE THE ONE LAUGHING...
I doubt covering your body in mud would work. But I know what would:
People refusing en masse to go to the festival unless the facial recognition and surveillance is removed. This would instantly end it at that festival. Not sure what the critical mass would need to be to achieve this. A third of people to a half would be my wild estimate. And it wont matter if the tickets are already sold or not, people walking away from it in large numbers would have this effect.
Rock / Alternative types fancy themselves misfits and rebels, do they not? They have a definite and real way they could stick it to the Man if they did this.
Or they can wander around knowing their every movement is being tracked and their faces scanned by cameras. Up to them.
Alternative types are often the most conformist, despite their appearance. Not all are of course, but I suspect most people will waive their right to privacy in this case.
I imagine Glastonbury would face more of a backlash due to it's size and the fact it's sold as being a bit alternative and hippy (despite the fact it isn't any more). Reading and Leeds might go for it, depends on what sort of backlash they got on Tw*tter or F*cebook.
Currently as I type, the tw*tter stream is filled fill starving Download punters as their RFID payment system isn't working. So I guess it's sorted itself out.
because they're short-sighted, and they can't see past their nose. Do they care when using gmail? Do they care about cookies and other tracking? Do we care about the cameras at every corner? Do we care that your movements are tracked as your mobile hops from tower to tower? Do we care that our agencies can track you online and offline with no real oversight? Baaaa... I'd better go back to my job, got a mortage to pay...
"The RFID system was only announced *after* the tickets had already gone on sale.
I'm more than a little ticked off about it all."
I think you might need to encourage lots of your fellow festival goers to go play with a Tesla Coil. That should do the job....
I would not have have bought a ticket for Download Festival if I had known in advance about the cashless system and the level of surveillance that it meant I would have been subject to. I am utterly opposed to any cashless system. And why do I need to be watched while I'm enjoying myself???? I intend to boycott Download in future if they think this is the way forward. I am a peaceful person and resent this intrusion into my life. Get off my back Big Brother, shove your surveillance
When considering a new system that involves money, think not how it would work, but how it could go wrong.
This system is an absolute dream come true for the small-time fraudster and grifter. All they need is a small RFID sniffer, an RFID programmer and a supply of RFID tags that look a bit like the ones the organisers have.
Once in the festival, the grifter gets his RFID sniffer going then goes looking for people who look a bit richer than normal festival goers; designer clothing and so on, and walks past them. His RFID sniffer grabs the codes, which in the privacy of his tent he puts onto some more RFID tags, which he sells to willing stooges to try out. When he finds one that is loaded with cash and is an access-most-areas tag, he duplicates lots of them and sells 'em for lots of cash (cash will of course still be present, so people can buy drugs).
Pretty soon the guy who had his tag sniffed finds he ain't rich any more and the festival organisers want to have a quiet word with him, along with all of his clones...
This is how this system will break, mark my words.
"Both are still optional devices"
Try telling that to some teen. You'll find that these are only optional device to those above a certain age. To anyone younger they are items that are absolutely required unless you want to be laying on the ground with some bigger kid pummelling you.
Sadly that's probably true: I do seem to meet more astonishingly gullible and naive people than ever before. They are often pleasant and intelligent in most ways, but they do seem to regard reality as being of purely academic interest as if they will never have to live there.
They just seem to find it easier to say "yes" to whatever they are told, a bit like innocent people who confess to a crime they haven't committed and think "It will all be sorted out later". But by whom? Not someone like them!
"WTF would anyone even consider attending this any festival with this level of surveillance ever?*
* Genuinely sorry to those who go to festivals, but I have an absolute horror of these things. I cannot understand what the fun is is in standing in a crowd of unwashed, off-their-heads people in the cold and wet whilst someone pisses on your tent. Standing in the cold and wet is only to be done when rally cars are involved :-)
> I cannot understand what the fun is is in standing in a crowd of unwashed, off-their-heads people in the cold and wet whilst someone pisses on your tent.
High chance of getting laid. Then again...
> Standing in the cold and wet is only to be done when rally cars are involved
...what would you know about that?
>:-)
Not exactly accurate... The Panopticon is a system where you COULD be surveilled at any time, but you don't know WHEN you're surveilled.
With this system, and those to come, you know you're ALWAYS being surveilled.
The Panopticon was devised in an era when humans had to do all the surveilling themselves. In that respect, it was actually a much friendlier system (albeit fictional).
well, the whol epoint of secret/ covert cameras is that they are hidden, you can't see them
and the rfid doesn't tell you every time it logs and sends off your location
few years ago they were even caught putting cameras in urinals....supposedly to 'catch' sex offenders of course....
And what's the chances that they'll do the same as the usual 'Points' systems, where by you can only add certain fixed amounts to your account, but purchases won't line up with these amounts so you'll always end up with some unspent that you can't get back.
(For example, see Microsoft Points for Xbox Live, which it seems they're now getting rid of, which is nice)
No, they refund any unspent money, might even be better than previous years when I've come back with unspent beer tokens.. Apart from the surveillance bit, but as you're either in the arena or not, there's not a lot of tracking they can do with that.
And realistically how much difference is it to using a debit card - they know where you've spent all your money too
Well not for long!
As for RFID tags, it should be mandatory for them to be removed as opposed to deactivated at the point of sale.
A good case in point being thr French Sports shop Decathlon, at the checkout they always have a pair of scissors to cut out RFIDs on previously bought items that customers are wearing, because they reactivate on entering the shop.
Many retail tags are 'burned out' at the till (never wondered why they are waved over a plastic pad on the counter that warns you not to put bank cards and mobile phones on it?).
This is supposed to permanently deactivate by destroying the tags. (tags are powered by inductive power - these pads provide so much power that it blows a fuse in the tag).
Doesn't always work, though.
Completely removing the tag would be better, but it's been suggested that many retailers would like to hide the tag so that you don't even know where it is to remove.
Many retail tags are 'burned out' at the till (never wondered why they are waved over a plastic pad on the counter that warns you not to put bank cards and mobile phones on it?).
This is supposed to permanently deactivate by destroying the tags. (tags are powered by inductive power - these pads provide so much power that it blows a fuse in the tag).
When these were first implemented at our local B&Q I was a service engineer. When we spotted the tags on kit we bought, we peeled them apart (as you do as an engineer) and quickly spotted the burnt out segment. In those days, the current was applied by two contacts that the shop assistant had to touch with a device, so we already had a vague idea that it was some sort of fuse.
We fixed the burnt out segment in a few tags, then slipped them into our boss' jacket. None of us were thus very surprised that his next visit to B&Q took a *lot* longer :)
Ah, those were the days.
Worked for the Uni library as well. Each book had a tag slipped into the spine, and when you checked out or in a book at the desk it went around the detector frame. Anyone trying to walk out through the frame with a book in their bag tripped the alarm.
It wasn't hard to tease the tags out of books with a pair of tweezers and slip them into pockets, socks, or other places on unsuspecting students.
Technology like the RFID cards can be used for many purposes, both good and bad.
From the organisers perspective, using the RFID tag as a payment method reduces the amount of cash on site, so it will probably reduce some of the petty theft that happens at these events. This will benefit the customers, the people who run the concessions (they don't need to maintain cash floats), the organisers (who don't need to have cash handling facilities for the concession operators), and the Police who will probably see a reduced number of theft reports, especially if the RFID has a second factor (PIN?) to authorise payment.
It also makes sure that people only have access to what they have paid for, making it more likely that people at the festival actually pay the right price to see what they want.
Tracking people who move around is something completely different. While it will happen as a side effect of the entitlement checking, it's no different to having a barcode on a ticket, which is frequently used at attractions.
The only time it may be intrusive is if they have silent, unmarked RFID scanners scattered throughout the event, not just at the gates.
I think if I was there (which is not going to happen, partly because of these concerns), I would probably want to take a foil-lined pouch or tin to keep the tag in (depending on whether it is a wrist-band or a dog-tag, both terms are used in the article), and only take it out when it is necessary.
I don't really agree with facial recognition, but as that can be applied both in real time and in retrospect to captured CCTV video, there's not really much point in objecting to that, because it will happen anyway.
It's not that I'm paranoid (well, not that much), rather than I object to the concept of there being the ability to track me.
It only benefits the people running concessions if the festival organisers don't accidentally go bankrupt after the festival and before the concessions people get their dosh. Which I bet isn't until 30/60/90/120 days post event. Read about this happening at a festival last year. Of course the 2016 festival, despite having the same name/ organisers etc will be a totally different company!
I was supposing that the concession operators balance could be accessed in a timely manner. If that is not the case, then they and their customers are effectively giving the organisers a free, high risk credit facility for no return. I would not accept the risk.
But surely, that should come under some form of regulation, because the festival could be seen as a bank without a banking license?
I don't really agree with facial recognition, but as that can be applied both in real time and in retrospect to captured CCTV video, there's not really much point in objecting to that, because it will happen anyway.
Is there a law against publicly wearing a Guy Fawkes mask? Otherwise I can see a good way to make some money myself at that festival :)
In order to perform the facial matching, the images of individuals (there will be MANY images of each individual taken throughout the event) will need to be captured for comparison with the images held in the police "custody suite"
- Will the images captured at this event be added to that collection?
- Will the images be grouped into associative sets - What was that family doing?
- Will the event organisers get copies of those images?
- Will the images be sold, along with purchase details and any associative insight, to advertisers and marketing organisations that may bid for this info?
- What else are the event organisers and police collecting? Mobile/Smartphone records, for example?
- Will anybody attending be told of the "justified purpose" of these surveillances?
What an 'anti-citizen' state Britain has become...
Re: What will the police do with the images they collect?
If we are being pedantic, then you're a bit out of date. Since 1983 (most) British nationals have been citizens (rather than subjects). Check your passport!
Yet, if I recall correctly, as a British passport holder an invitation to the Palace is apparently a summons, whereas for a foreigner like me it is only an invitation (weird stuff I discovered a while back).
You ask interesting questions for which I've seen no answer. This probably scarier than the RFID tags when one thinks about it. The tag data, while seeming like a convenience during the festival will get you targeted by advertisers. The police on the other hand will use this data for....????? Are looking for crims showing up? Terrorists? Unpaid parking ticket holders? Or filling their database?
Perhaps the answer lies in the future. This is just one event and people will shrug it off. Then there will be another and another. It won't be long before it's common practice at all events. And then it spreads into everyday life.. and the surveillance state will be complete.
Speaking on the part of non-food traders, this has been forced upon them after paying for their concessions, the money will hopefully be paid to them at some point after the festival. After the galtrees festival traders are very wary of these systems as any losses might end up being paid by the traders takings.
Actually if they get paid on time it could save money for some traders. I recall seeing a few news articles over the years of traders being targeted while leaving festivals, some of them get half their years profits from the bigger ones.
They would save money carrying float ( change ) and on bank lodgement fees ( some banks charge an obscene amount for lodging coins )
Revellers at a festival WILL lose and/or break these on an industrial scale. Anyone willing to bet the process or stock for replacements are nonexistent or woefully inadequate? What's the reaction going to be when someone who has paid good money to be there resigns themselves to paying £18.50 for a burger only to be told they can't eat because the dog tag isn't working and the vendor isn't allowed to take cash or card?
While we're on the subject, how secure is paying for things with the RFID, is there an identity verification measure or are they as good as cash if you nick one?
It's already happened/ing - system was down for over 4 hours yesterday with loads saying they couldn't buy anything or funds weren't being added to balances quick enough. Apparently the organisers hadn't anticipated the volumes of demand....
Its claimed to be working now but a fully expecting to have to take own food in or spend more time queuing to get ti sorted than actually watch any bands.
Some may call me a paranoid conspiracist nutcase for suggesting that this is a pilot for a larger scheme (indeed, some have in the last hour or so), but consider the alternative explanation:
That the Powers That Be, believe that attendees of a major music festival are more likely to be criminals, untrustworthy or international terrorists than any other section of the population. It seems to them that its a good idea to surveil this very specific cross section of the community, for whatever reason, and to prevent them using cash in the cause of crime reduction.
Personally, I'm not sure which explanation is worse.
...the Powers That Be, believe that attendees of a major music festival are more likely to be criminals, untrustworthy or international terrorists...
Hmmmm; let's check the headliners:
Slipknot, Muse, Kiss (no, really), Judas Priest, FNM, Motley Crue, Marilyn Manson
So, 'criminals'; possibly 20 years ago when they were misguided teenagers (or 40, in the case of Kiss and JP fans), 'untrustworthy' in their musical tastes, and perhaps their hearing acuity, and 'international terrorists' only if ISIS/ISIL recruiting standards have really, really slipped...
Kiss was big back in the '70s... So probably more like 50~60Y/o's Mötly Crew would be closer to my gen (Gen-X of 40 somethings). I suppose the sadder reality of that would be that retched Seattle Grunge sh-- of the 90's. Nirvana sucked then, and time hasn't made any of their trite any better.
And, if Kiss weren't such massive douches they'd might just have been the only thing worth seeing..
Of to have a festival with Deep Purple, Sabbath (W/Ozzy), and Zeppelin, ELO, YES, Priest, Ginger Baker (On that Note W/Cream!), and Pink Floyd! etc... Now that would be my idea of a festival. With that kind of line-up... I'd might also be willing to endure this BS... But, thankfully (or not)... That line-up will continue to be just a dream.
BTW: W(ho)... or WTF are FNM and, Marilyn Manson? Laddy GaGas stepsister or something?
Your dream line-up can only be a dream.
Jack Bruce, Rick Wright, John Bonham (OK, officially replaced), Jon Lord, Cozy Powell, Peter Banks (OK, he left Yes a long time ago), Dio, Kelly Groucutt (and Mike Edwards, although they both left ELO), Eric Carr, all gone.
And these are just the ones I found from the bands you mention!
But the real money is the money left on the bracelets, as the hungover people dont bother getting their money as they are desperate to get out of the park !!
bet there is a good few thousands left in the kitty unclaimed after the event. That is if you can even get your money back off the damn system!!!
Projected to start working at 16:00 yesterday, I'm not on site (I assure you I wouldn't be on here if I was!) but all my friends there yesterday were moaning that more of the issued wristbands were faulty than not, with the replacement process due to start at 16:00.
> Brilliant mix of music and low proportion of assholes.
Similarly, Wickerman is usually* low on the Ned count.
It used to be incredibly cheap too. Alas, they've recently jumped on the "let's charge the silly buggers for everything" bandwagon.
*In over a decade of attendance there have been two years where I witnessed small outbreaks of the type of neddish arseholery that pervades events like T in the Park. Otherwise the crowd have been pretty decent.
1) burner mobile Phone - check.
2) anonymous Mask - check.
3) hammer to Hit RFID tag. - check
4) cash to pay for RFID tag - check
5) Faraday cage (tent Sized) - Check
4) food and drink for the length of the festival so dont need to buy food and be profiled as having unhealthy diet as didnt eat at the vegan whole food stall all weekend - check
come to think of it it will be easier to just stay home and avoid the invasion in to my privacy - whats on TV ?. (non smart tv so it cant spy on me)
Last time I went to Download, I nearly starved, as there wasn't *any* vegan meals available - Has it really improved that much? (Not that I wanted a "vegan wholefood stall", a vegan burger bar would have been nice and saved a weekend of just beer and crisps.)
Mind you, if I had a ticket for this year, I'd be trying to see how to get a refund now anyway........
I would have thought corpse paint would be more in keeping with metal rather than an anonymous mask.
In all seriousness, Download is just mainstream metal anyway and having a helicopter buzzing overhead ruined Maiden's set for me when they played last. Hellfest and Wacken in mainland Europe have long been better than Download.
No, it's a heavy metal thing, with cutting edge contemporary acts such as Judas Priest and Billy Idol headlining. Not my paper cup of overpriced fizzy beer to be honest, but each to their own....
But what further indignities are those people still prepared to hand over large sums of cash to attend these events willing to let themselves be subjected to?
Hand over your payment card details and authorise everything an RFID chip in your wristband pays for to be instantly deducted from your bank account? Kind of like writing your bank card's PIN number in permanent marker on it, then waving it around all day in a large crowd of drunk people - a terrible idea. Can't take your own booze into the arena, must buy from "official partners" instead. Personal profile built up and then sold to marketing people - so for the rest of your days you're on countless atabases as a huge consumer of beer and burgers.
I can understand people using free things on the web where "you are the product", but this isn't a free festival - it's expensive, and you are paying to be the product. Add in the surveillance stuff and this all adds uo to....
RAAAWK AND ROOOOOL !!!!
Even back in the 90s people were moaning that festivals had "gone a bit corporate", but it's obviously got completely out of control now.
<fanbois-rant-mode=ON>
And this is why I prefer Glastonbury.
Yes, they check me on to site and the gates, and then again when I leave, and yes they have my photo on the ticket so scammers can't nick my ticket. But that's it, and I'm OK with that. I'm big and ugly enough to cope with those things.
There are no arenas. It's one big (huge, city-sized) space. I can go where I want (in the public areas), when I want, and with who I want, for as long as I want. I can take my own food and booze and eat and drink it whenever and where ever I want, including right in front of the stages if I wish (OK, so I can't cook it there, but you know what I mean). The odd wandering, friendly Plod aside, as far as I know there is no other surveillance inside the festival. No cameras. No CCTV. Or they're well hidden if there are. It's probably the least-surveilled city in the country whilst the festival is on.
I *don't* need to purchase "official sponsor" beer. I *don't* have to leave the fun zone and retire to a camp site at midnight because mommy says I have to. The nearest they get to corporate sponsors are a) a bunch of charities (lets not go there though, different convo) and b) the brand of beer supplied in some of the (optional, avoidable) beer tents.
And here's the point: I don't need to spend a *single penny* at the festival if I really don't want to (OK, just the *other* kind of spending a penny of course.. :-) I can completely opt out of the money/transaction thing for a week if I really want to.
And people wonder why it sells out before a single act is ever announced. Maybe these are some of the reasons why - along with the fact that there is so much to see and do, everyone is always happy!
(PS: Yes, it's true, there are hippies - pretend or otherwise - there though. Sorry. Really. They happen. Some are actually quite nice. YMMV. YTMV. Download doesn't have hippies.. :-)
S.
Well, the same thing could be argued for V festival (arguably one of the most commercial fesivals).
In fact V they don't even have your photo. You buy a ticket, you get a little fabric wristband. You attach said wristband and go.
You can take in food and drink with no issues. You don't have to buy their "sponsored beer".
The whole place (apart from the backstage/VIP area) is one big public area and you can come/go as you please. And you can eat/drink wherever you please.
I have never seen any surveillance there apart from the odd roaming plod or "security guard".
And, as you say, you don't need to spend a single penny there should you choose not to.
So your Glasto is superior rant is a little moot I am afraid as other festivals offer the same/more.. or less I suppose it would be, of this sort of thing.
I get the feeling however that this RFID is a taste of things to come for all festivals in the future.
And before you ask. No. Never been to Glaston... never want to. Hate all that mud and heaving crowds, which is why V fest is in fact superior as you can just go a bit further back and setup a picnic blanket, but still with a good view of the stage.
Anon... naturally, just in case this comment lands me on one of those police lists... and because I think I just kicked a hornets nest with that last comment.
> No. Never been to Glaston...
then
> V fest is in fact superior
Tut, tut. Must try harder.
As it happens, I've been to both and, for what I was after, Glastonbury shat all over V in almost every department (the one notable exception being the stink - Glastonbury is without a doubt the smelliest event I have ever attended, yet I still loved it).
No Need to be sorry,
It may seem strange, but just because I haven't been able to get tickets doesn't mean I'd lose interest. I also know people who have been there as recently as two years ago, and I can assure you they came back just as excited (and tired) as I was. Unfortunately the BBC etc. give a positively minuscule, tightly blinkered coverage of the event, so the only way you'll be able to verify what I say is to either go there, or, you know, talk to those who have.
Ha ha. I was being pedantic/funny as you said that when you last went the attitude was that of the 1960's... but that was in 2000, which would mean that the attitude of those people are now that of the 1970/80's.... geez, just because you don't put a Joke alert on your comment....
As for the other comments. I wasn't caring about those. I say go with whatever festival you like. Personally I am more of a Creamfields/SW4 kind of guy. The kind where apart from them patting you down at the entrance they don't really seem to care as they know that people are there to enjoy the music... and some getting absolutely off their tits.
Been to the 02 wireless festival as well, but that was more of a festival lite. But Damien Marley was playing that particular time, so it was groovy tunes.
Reading/Leeds is a good fest too. Though, the toilets on that last day is not something you want to think about.
I have a few friends who have gone to Glaston, though most of them went years ago. All of the stories involved mud, most involved said friends being rather drunken/raucous.
I think though whatever your festival preference we can all agree that paying to go to something where you become the product.... not cool.
Smelly? I can still remember the dope haze that spread all over the last of the original IOW festivals.
Very un-commercial and Hendrix to boot. Them were the days when I had hair, long hair.
Went to Glasto in the early days but that was it for multi-day events. Couldn't be bothered after that.
This download crapfest is however going many steps too far with data collection for 'The Man'.
Peace Bro (and sis)
You pay electronically to go to this event, you pay electronically for why you consume in the event and presumable you pay electronically for what you dispose of at the event.
Why is there no opt out from having your personal information sold/supplied to 'other organisations' for advertising purposes? Every other ecommerce (ie electronic commerce) site has to have an opt in/out check box for use of your personal data ...how can this organisation specify it as a mandatory condition of service - share your data or don't attend?
I'm no expert but it feels like they're walking a very fine wire ...
"I remember the good old days when money was a peer to peer system. Now there's always someone in the middle; monitoring, profiting, controlling. Not good news."
This is exactly how banks work; by intermediating themselves into every possible financial transaction to skim off a profit.
When we're told that the City of London is the economic powerhouse of the UK, what it really means is that it is extracting part of all our economic activity and using it to buy cocaine.
There is a little irony that the best defence against the facial recognition is wearing the niqab... maybe part of a government scheme to get us all converted to Islam then tag us all as potential Islamic terrorists.
I hate festivals that impose all of this crap around your own booze and gate your movements across the site. V was the first to go batshit crazy plenty of others followed and now it seems Download has gone to a surreal new level. Festivals used to be about having fun but now it is about corporate identity rape and festival go-ers chatting senselessly through the acts and just posting endless selfies and never hearing or seeing a thing. Look at me, I'm having fun...
so why the hell would you want to let them loose with an RFID payment system?
Not so worried about the facila recognition system, though, so long as the police agree to leave enforcement in the hands of a Jim Caviezel look-a-like in a smart suit.
I queried a few things with youchip when they were announced to be the provider and they never bothered responding. Also the RFID system went titsup yesterday meaning no one could enter or buy anything.
I believe the main reason for the dog tag is so that all purchases are recorded so cash wasn't going under the till for download to take their cut and to also reduce drug purchases as people won't have cash on them & the dealers won't take dogtags.
Unless they are banning cash physically from the site, which would be interesting, I can't see it reduce payments to drug dealers as it's id assume dealing drugs is breach of the t&c already
Wonder how good facial recognition is with people wearing hats that obsicte part or all of faces, assuming the cameras are mounted and looking down or will they be at face level at check points.
Exactly have the organisers gone into partnership with the local fuzz to spy on their customers and what right (if any ) do the plods have to surveil customers who have paid to enter a private event.? This is no different to the fuzz using facial recognition in a restaurant or the Albert Hall.
Just sounds completely wrong to me.
"Every single person on site, including staff, children, RIP and VIP customers will need a dog tag to get around the festival," according to the FAQ section of the site. "The only way to get around the festival and pay for stuff is to use this system. It’s not possible to opt out of this."
Yes it is, just don't go. Boycott the festival. I would love to see some of the bands, but I will not support this type of system.
Download's privacy policy acknowledges that it will collect your information through the use of the cashless payment wristbands and will, typically, share that information with other companies, who will collaborate to establish your interests, purchases and household type to aid in profiling you for advertising purposes.
So I have to pay for the system, and you sell my data. No, it;s my data. My information. You can't sell it to people who will advertise AT me.
In the words of Rage Against The Machine...
And now you do what they told ya, now you're under control
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me
Perhaps someone in the current world of finance could enlighten me: has the law on legal tender changed? Surely cash, within the legal limits, (http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines) must be accepted if offered in settlement of a debt? Is not every vendor taking part in this scheme conspiring with the organisers to break the law? Shouldn't Leicestershire's Finest be on to this, dragging the offenders off to the Beak?
Under the law both in the UK and in the US, a normal sales transaction DOES NOT constitute a debt but a sale, so the "legal tender" provision DOES NOT apply. Barring certain acts of discrimination, the vendor reserves the right to refuse sales at his/her discretion. That's how vendors in my neck of the woods refuse service to rude and rowdy people.
So... I guess the solution is wearing hats and neck ties with UV and Infra Red LED lights attached, along with your common or garden makeshift steel mesh (or whatever) Faraday Cage... Get enough of the kids (sorry, middle aged people who can afford the tickets) to do that free the id trackers only when entering / leaving an area or purchasing....
Then there's the opportunity for cloning RFID tags (perhaps the event directors????)
Oh, to be a creative anarchist at Download.
I just checked at the Download Festitval web site and there was info on the RFID tags and their use at the festival for access and purchases but I couldn't find anything about the facial recognition program. Considering that the event is on private property, doing that without explicit informed consent seems like it must violate some kind of laws? What are the laws about this like in the U.K.?
People can't really boycott this as they are mostly unaware of the planned level of surveillance. This was only announced yesterday, the festival starts today! People will find out when they turn up which is wrong.
I think I understand why they are using this festival to trial this - it's one of the most laid back easy going atmospheres of a UK festival of that size. People will accept it, then next year all your big festivals will follow suit.
I will complain as I have taken my son to this festival several times - never again if this is going to be the norm.
I feel a letter to my MP coming on...
All you whining about big brother and liberty are pretty slow and confused. The police being able to protect us and stop known sex offenders, bag thieves and general scumbags from entering the festival with pockets full of knives and drugs is a good thing. Why worry unless you are a criminal? Your image is captured many times a day in our towns and cities and now the police have a way of using that data to solve and prevent crime..great news.
If you actually look at the technology, you'll notice it cant be used with millions of faces becuase we all have similarities that mean it wont work. But loading it with criminal faces and scanning people at events is a great idea. It wont stop them all but I can rest easier in my tent knowing most of the criminals (visit to steal brigade) are in clink and not stealing my BBQ.
First there is the desperate attempt to mash two unrelated molehills into a mountainous story of oppressive "surveillance", then there is the truly comic eagerness with which so many of the usual suspects hysterically bleat it up even more!
Facial recognition cameras are nothing new, they are in every Western capital (plus Moscow and Beijing). If the author wants to try and insist there is something wrong with the Police being able to quickly identify known criminals (including those that are wanted) before they can do more crimes then please do tell us what that is rather than baselessly inferring there is some "conspiracy" against all festival goers.
Secondly, the Police cameras at this festival (and others) are a result of a simple fact - such festivals are a hotbed of streetcrime, from simple pickpockets through muggings to drugdealing. How many times have you had friends come back from such an event moaning about how someone stole their phone/camera/stash which they stupidly left in an unsecured tent.
And then there is no link whatsoever between the Police cameras and the festival's RFID system, so the breathless attempts to infer one is simply too stupid for words. The RFID system is there to cut down thefts of cash (from stoned festival goers). You don't like it, go be a pretend hippy elsewhere.
Ever been "talked to" by the local police for something totally innocent but captured on camera? I have several times after being at "festivals". This latest time, they had me on camera standing next to a drug dealer (known to them but not to me) at a BBQ and Bands affair. We spoke for all of maybe a minute about the good music and the excellent ribs coming of the vender's grills. Two days later, there was a knock at my door and an invite down to the local cop shop for questioning about my being there and speaking with him. I'm pretty sure there's a file somewhere that now has me tagged as "talks to drug dealers" since one of them spent the whole Q and A session typing in everything that was said along with the whole thing being recorded on camera.
So yes, they can identify known crims. But there's no excuse to drag the innocent into their scraping up anything they can get.
I'm more than a little unsettled by the 'known crims' idea that a number of commentards have mentioned.
What is meant by 'known crims'? It's one thing if it's 'warrant out for the arrest of X in connection with Y', but something else when it's 'Got him on the criminal database when he was arrested for taking photos of the Town Hall' (seriously, happened to me. Arrested, lectured, threatened because I wouldn't hand the sdcard over then 'dearrested' and warned to mind how I go. They even tried to insist I provide a DNA sqab sample until I pointed out I'd been dearrested and they'd have to arrest me all over again to get the sample, which I would insist was taken at the station with a senior officer and solicitor present), or 'Got convicted of burglary/public order offence/looking at me in a funny way in 1974'.
Are we really going to be monitoring and refusing entry to people because of spent convictions or arrests which never led to a court case?
Just asking, as someone who used to believe that these powers would never be abused.
" quickly identify known criminals (including those that are wanted) before they can do more crimes" - MB
"What is meant by 'known crims'?" - Divided
Quite so. Back in the day, when I was still a young lad living in an enlightened country, we had a word for people before they'd committed a crime: innocent.
Not a word you hear much anymore.
obviously the attendees would have made plans months in advance, tickets bought and paid for.....sure most weren't even aware until after they arrived and i bet most don't even know after they left....
surely this is breach of contract at least? class action lawsuit anyone, at least try and get the money back/ might help deter them in future if it came out of their pockets rather than our...(+ their normal cream of charges)
The only way of protest is to boycott the event. Period.
Not at the ballots, _here_ is where democracy is executed: you vote with your feet.
Too small a nuisance to miss the event? You just stated your priorities, so shut up and suck it up, you deserve no better than that, and all that comes from it.
Having just come back from the festival, I can say that the RFID payments worked very well for precisely no meaningful loss of privacy. They will have learnt that Download goers - who are not especially hippy like, except in their inability to wash when at festivals - frequently purchase beer, jagerbombs and low quality meat products within a pretty confined area from a limited selection of vendors. This is not news to anyone who ever attends festivals, and it was a damn sight more convenient than screwing round with beer tokens last year.
Didn't see any evidence of cameras - maybe they were using the feed from the cameras by the stages. If Gene Simmons has any outstanding warrants, they'll have been picking up a lot of false positives on Sunday.
Also worth noting that I didn't see any evidence of crime - a couple of people looked like they may have partaken in some substances, but there were no fights or muggings I witnessed, and I didn't hear any reports of slashed tents, pickpocketing or theft - metal fans tend to be fairly pleasant people, but the festival scene has also changed a lot since the 90s when that tended to be pretty frequent.
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