back to article NBN must limit downloads to 12 Mbps downloads until copper handover

Network deployment rules and the Shannon-Hartley Theorem are crimping national broadband network (NBN) speeds, and will do for some time. As noted in new nbnTM documents turned up by Kenneth Tsang, who created the rollout tracking site myNBN.info, the wholesale deployment rules put the brakes on fibre-to-the-node service …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Or course it goes without saying…

    …that running fibre down one of those conduits all the way to the premises would cause no crosstalk into the existing copper pairs.

    The sad thing is that for all the apparent expense of this project and how much it's going/was going to cost per capita, it pales into insignificance when compared to the cost of the overland telegraph line back in the days of Queen Victoria which was the NBN of its day.

  2. sanity hazard
    Big Brother

    But Labor!

    Stop the downloads!

  3. Winkypop Silver badge
    FAIL

    Stop the bytes

    Oh Malcolm, what a cluster-fuck.

  4. Sanctimonious Prick
    Alert

    Definition Of...

    This should be added to one of those Wiki sites as to the definition of 'absolute corruption.'

  5. Bubba Von Braun
    FAIL

    Sped up nothing

    FTTP fibre in the wall, all ready to go and still 2 months later still waiting for NBNco to turn us on as RFS. Even request for a when will it be there, take 10 business days to get a response, and then its a non-response of "we will tell you when it will be ready, whens its ready."

    So no Mal we are not there yet, and god knows when we will be.. The change of technology has been nothing but a major distraction for an organization that conducts itself like the Telecom Australia of old.

    But what does one expect from Ziggy and the other escapee's from the original telco monopoly.

    1. EvanPyle

      Re: Sped up nothing

      Same problem here under the labor gov, took about two months from install to activation. I would have expected el reg readers to understand a testing phase.

  6. JJKing

    Maybe Captain tony thinks fibre only comes in Kellogg's Special K packets. What he needs is an FTTN suppository, the pommy twat.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You think he got Fibre To The Premises and Fibre To The Posterior mixed up?

      1. LaeMing

        TiSP

        http://www.google.com.au/tisp/

        It was only meant as a JOKE, Malcolm!

  7. This post has been deleted by its author

  8. mathew42
    Facepalm

    Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

    > “The government not only failed to deliver the NBN, it cut the speed!” is an irresistible political slogan even it it's based on a misunderstanding of technology

    The Feb-2015 figures from NBNCo revealed that 38% on fibre opted for the 12Mbps plan and a further 38% opted for the 25Mbps plan. The 12Mbps percentage is below Labor's prediction but 25Mbps is higher.

    The Coalition could decide that speed profiles on FTTN are too difficult to manage and simply remove them. Based on current take-up figures this would boost Australia's rankings significantly higher than Labor's FTTP plan, especially when you add FTTP & HFC.

    Labor made Australia the laughing stock of the world by building a FTTP network while planning for effective speeds slower than FTTN.

    1. Jasonk

      Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

      Considering that after the transition NBN is only required to deliver 25Mbps only once a day. That's real great value for a MIN of 25Mbps we where to get from the MTM as well as a MIN of 50Mbps to 90% of the premises it's a laughing stock.

      Those percentages are now only going to get higher as the NBN won't be able to achieve faster speeds. But MTM claims it can generate the same revenue as FTTP.

      Lol remove speed profiles that's what we have now with Telstra 0 to 24Mbps but what you are now sue jesting a 0 to 25Mbps

      "Labor made Australia the laughing stock of the world by building a FTTP network while planning for effective speeds slower than FTTN."

      Highly unlikely here is a nice vid of someone trying to sell MTM to other people in other countries which shows that he MTM is the real laughing stock.

      http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jmD-uFgcvbU

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

      Oh dear. If only you had the slightest idea what you are talking about. But your lack of understanding of the technical details doesn't stop you shooting your mouth off does it?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Down

      Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

      you think fttn and hfc will boost our rankings up for the long term ? you think fttn and hfc will be able to cope in the future ? you think fttn is able to achieve GUARANTEED speeds of say 100Mbps download, 40Mbps upload, AND still able to upgrade to 1000Mbps download and 400Mbps upload in the future when needed ? Lets say 41 BILLION dollars is a GOOD option for the current MTM. Then when we need to upgrade again, to support future needed speeds, say 1000Mbps download and 400Mbps upload, will we have to PAY ANOTHER 41 Billion dollars to install fibre, the only known medium that CAN SUPPORT THAT SPEEDS AND GO HIGHER WITHOUT CONGESTION ISSUES like the current HFC ? think again, you are only thinking of the short term. i repeat, you only think of the short term gains, not the long term. Every other country known is rolling out FTTP, and then when they complete their FTTP builds will we still be in the higher rankings of global internet speeds ? Your way of thinking is a joke, one that forces others to suffer shitty internet UP TO speeds, as well as being non-guaranteed, i.e. you paid for 50Mbps but only get 20Mbps tough luck we can't help you. What's more, the digital economy is growing, and we WILL miss out on that, as well as TONS of potential from future generations who won't be able to realise their dreams because they DO NOT have the infrastructures to help them realise their dreams. THINK AGAIN. your short term ways only serve to push Australia backwards, and limits the potential of the country's future generations as well as the economy. To think that we'll have to PAY TWO TIMES to get world class internet that guarantees you get what you pay for, as well as decent upload speeds, and a very late start to capture some of that sweet digital economy. Don't think that people don't want faster speeds, so what if they only take up 12mbps or 25mbps, installing fibre gives them GUARANTEED speeds. plus the fibre is rated to last well over 50 years. hold long does your fttn and hfc hold up? upgrade in 5 years time ? Plus when they realise 12mbps or 25mbps is not enough, they can upgrade to guaranteed 50/20 or 100/40 or 1000/400Mbps speeds. can you do that on fttn or hfc? can you guarantee those speeds ? I repeat, can you guarantee those speeds ? Think again, this is not only about consumers, this is for businesses and potential entrepreneurs, successors of our future generations, who will need this guaranteed internet speeds to realise their dreams or whatever. people like you who think short term and only of yourself or your limited imaginations of what you can do with proper guaranteed internet speed, let alone proper upload speeds, you're only holding the country back. Thank you for reading. hopefully this sh**ty text dent's your thick short term helmet. And no there is no debt crisis, and the NBN was to be funded through bonds, if I'm not mistakened, and yes under the MTM we the people of australia will have to pay TWICE when we need to upgrade again in 5 years or when it's obsolete in 5 years.

      1. mathew42
        FAIL

        Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

        > Every other country known is rolling out FTTP, and then when they complete their FTTP builds will we still be in the higher rankings of global internet speeds ?

        Is any other country in the world building a FTTP network with the expected speed tier take up that Labor planned for in the NBNCo Corporate Plan (close to 50% of fibre connections at 12Mbs and less than 5% at 1Gpbs in 2028)?

        > Plus when they realise 12mbps or 25mbps is not enough, they can upgrade to guaranteed 50/20 or 100/40 or 1000/400Mbps speeds.

        NBNCo FTTP standard AVC is peak information rate (PIR), so no guarantee of speed. If you want committed information rate (CIR) AVC. To give you an understanding of pricing 5/5Mbps is $300/month on top of AVC PIR.

        > we WILL miss out on that, as well as TONS of potential from future generations who won't be able to realise their dreams because they DO NOT have the infrastructures to help them realise their dreams.

        People who need the faster speeds have two options: move to an area with FTTP or order fibre on demand. You may also note that 1Gbps plans have been available for order from NBNCo since December 2013, but are not being offered by RSPs because Labor's completely screwed pricing model.

        People choose where to live for all kinds of reasons like schools or public transport. FTTP will simply be another factor. If you make some crude assumptions about demographics then it would be reasonable to assume that a higher percentage of younger people are most likely to live in apartments or new estates which will have FTTB / FTTP.

        > And no there is no debt crisis, and the NBN was to be funded through bonds, if I'm not mistakened

        NBNCo does have a serious budget issue. The entire financial plan is based around massive jumps in ARPU which are very challenging when looking at historical trends where people have paid roughly the same or less for faster speeds and higher quotas. NBNCo revenue growth is based on reducing prices at a significantly slower rate than the growth in demand. For example:

        * 1000/400Mbps is forecast to fall from $150 to $90, while the average speed grows from 30Mbps to 230Mbps. The price falls by 40% while average speed grows by 760%

        * CVC pricing started at $20Mbps/Month when the average data usage is 30GB/Month and falls to $8Mbps/Month when the average data usage is 540GB/month. That is the price falls by 2.5 times, while the average data usage grows by 18 times = growth in revenue from CVC of 720% when accounting for price falls.

        Like most of your post, sadly you have been deceived by Labor spin on FTTP. Yes FTTP is a great technology but the artificial financial model Labor constructed crippled the technology to the point where FTTN, FTTB & HFC are viable alternatives.

        1. Jasonk

          Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

          "Is any other country in the world building a FTTP network with the expected speed tier take up that Labor planned for in the NBNCo Corporate Plan (close to 50% of fibre connections at 12Mbs and less than 5% at 1Gpbs in 2028)?"

          Again that now 5% or even to 20% on 100Mbps makes more revenue than the bottom 50% by 4x they where aiming for so far that take up rate has been correct. If more go on those higher tier FTTP would be paid back sooner.

          "so no guarantee of speed. "

          Wrong on FTTP NBN guarantee the speed to your ISP. On FTTN just need to get 25mbps once a day.

          "People who need the faster speeds have two options: move to an area with FTTP or order fibre on demand. You may also note that 1Gbps plans have been available for order from NBNCo since December 2013, but are not being offered by RSPs because Labor's completely screwed pricing model."

          So now that we are building a $41B network that cant guarantee any better speeds than ADSL2. If you can get any better speed that what you currently have you either move or pay more than the cost of FTTP as Simon Hackett has stated that the average of FOD is more the FTTP at $4300 so much for MTM to make it cheaper to upgrade. Plus there is currently at least 5 users with 1Gbps connection.

          "How are they viable models "

          Turnbulls just saving $22mil in interest with delivering a service we already have. NBN is so worried about TPG FTTB would take a hugh chunk out of its revenue that Tunbulls had to finally step in and try to curb them and failed. Even though he was pro competition before the election now all he is pro competition with fiber competition. NBN has even taken TPG to court and failed. Sound much like to Telstra of old now.

          1. mathew42
            FAIL

            Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

            > Again that now 5% or even to 20% on 100Mbps makes more revenue than the bottom 50% by 4x

            This is based purely on AVC pricing, whereas you need to consider the CVC pricing which is the same regardless of speed tiers.

            > Wrong on FTTP NBN guarantee the speed to your ISP.

            Please attempt to comprehend my comments about PIR in an earlier post. The interconnection between NBNCo an ISP represents a significant bottleneck because of CVC pricing. You may also wish to read some of the information about serious network performance issues caused by netflix traffic. Further to this I suggest reading the terms & conditions of an RSP. Here is a helpful example: http://www.internode.on.net/residential/fibre_to_the_home/nbn_plans/performance/ which includes this statement "Because of these factors, NBN Fibre Broadband services are described as 'theoretical network maximum speeds'. Your actual speeds may be slower due to factors outside of Internode's control."

            > If you can get any better speed that what you currently have you either move or pay more than the cost of FTTP as Simon Hackett has stated that the average of FOD is more the FTTP at $4300

            At least we agree that moving is a viable option. $4300 is less than 1% of an average house price and cheaper than repainting or a kitchen / bathroom renovation.

            > Plus there is currently at least 5 users with 1Gbps connection.

            Can you link to the RSP page where I can order one of these connections?

            > Sound much like to Telstra of old now.

            NBNCo have behaved very much like Telstra since the day they were established. Do some reading on their negotiating strategy with the ACCC and RSPs. In some areas they made Telstra look soft.

            1. Jasonk

              Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

              "This is based purely on AVC pricing, whereas you need to consider the CVC pricing which is the same regardless of speed tiers."

              With the CVC user you use more as the plans can handle the bandwidth. Eg. YouTube test you connection and give you the best picture best on that unless you change it otherwise.

              Internode had problem with Netflix across its entire network including ADSL, HFCand FTTP.

              FTTP will get you as close to the speed you pay for subject to ISP network on other contention. My mother is lucky to have FTTP she is on 12/1 which is all she needs. He had tested her connection mulitple times and 99% of the time it's at 11Mbps and have seen it drop to 3Mbps for a second once.

              "At least we agree that moving is a viable option. $4300 is less than 1% of an average house price and cheaper than repainting or a kitchen / bathroom renovation."

              But the MTM as Turnbull has claim will make upgrading to FTTP cheaper then why does FOD cost more. Or let's say you get FTTN and all you get for most of the day is 10Mbps on and 25/5 plan while you neighbour got 40Mbps on 50/20. You would be happy to fork out that extra money to get the speeds like your neighbour can that a $41B network couldn't deliver. Would you say that's $41B dollars well spent.

              "Can you link to the RSP page where I can order one of these connections"

              Just call an ISP for a price if it's not on there website doesn't mean it's not available.

              1. mathew42
                FAIL

                Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

                > My mother is lucky to have FTTP she is on 12/1 which is all she needs.

                12Mbps can be easily delivered by HFC, FTTN, 4G and half of ADSL2+ connections. Based on this FTTP is delivering zero benefit. If the speed cap didn't exist then the possibility exists for your mother to explore services that only faster speeds can deliver, but for now they remain unobtainable.

                > You would be happy to fork out that extra money to get the speeds like your neighbour can that a $41B network couldn't deliver. Would you say that's $41B dollars well spent.

                I see little advantage to Australia in building a network where currently on fibre 38% are connected at 12Mbps, a further 38% are connected at 25Mbps and Labor predicted that in 2028 close to 50% on fibre would be connected at 12Mbps.

    4. melts

      Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

      I read your post, i see figures, but don't get the info you're trying to convey.

      people are choosing to pay less for less bandwidth, but having that choice is bad?

      or is it more than 25% of people are choosing speeds higher than guaranteed* under the lib MTM FTTN build? (now not a promise, but it was only an election promise, not something serious...)

      or that 63% of people are choosing speeds that won't be available for the first 2-4 years on FTTN?

      or are you saying that by removing speed tiers - and assuming capitalism doesn't let me down here - forcing 12Mbit users to pay more for an upto 25Mbit service, or worse pay the same as a 100Mbit user if you remove all tiers, this is somehow better, because they won't be on guaranteed 12Mbit speeds anymore?

      I'm not sure what to take away from your post, as it appears to suggest that tiered pricing is bad just so we get better rankings somewhere, while ignoring that **up to speeds aren't a reliable indicator - & that is with a double asterisk as they need to blame the copper as well as the remote servers, internet pipes, contention, etc. FTTN upto speeds mean you are restricted at your door, you can't go faster by going to a local server as the data from your house is the slow point. Thats a bad situation to be in.

      I'd rather tiered speeds and reliable fibre that can support 100Mbit now, 1Gbit/sec shortly and beyond as central components get updated, rather than FTTN that we already know is going to be FTTP in their 'beyond' planning, I doubt they'll even roll out G.fast before converting FTTN to FTTP.

      I'm also fine with people picking the speed they need. unless you want to pay for anyone on a low income (or government allowances) to get a free upgrade to upto** 100mbit, why not just let them pay less for 12mbit. Then allow those who want it pay more and get more. as your average upto figure is, even without restrictions going to be around 25-30mbit, BT already showed this, so why pretend its upto** 100mbit.

      1. mathew42
        FAIL

        Re: Coalition could fix the speed issue quickly

        > or are you saying that by removing speed tiers - and assuming capitalism doesn't let me down here - forcing 12Mbit users to pay more for an upto 25Mbit service, or worse pay the same as a 100Mbit user if you remove all tiers

        What I'm suggesting is a rebalancing of the charging model from a focus on connection fees (AVC) to data charges (CVC). If connection fees are low, then more people will connect. Once people are connected then they can experience the benefits of broadband and will download more simply because it is possible.

        > I'd rather tiered speeds and reliable fibre that can support 100Mbit now, 1Gbit/sec shortly and beyond as central components get updated

        I'd also assume you can afford to pay for 100Mbps so you don't really care about the impacts of slower speeds on others. You are happy that others are subsidising your cheap high speed connection. However don't be so certain about your 1Gbps connection. 1Gbps NBNCo have available for order by RSPs since December 2013, but currently not a single RSP is selling them. Further to this Labor predicted that in 2026 less than 1% would have 1Gbps connections.

        > I'm also fine with people picking the speed they need. unless you want to pay for anyone on a low income (or government allowances) to get a free upgrade to upto** 100mbit, why not just let them pay less for 12mbit.

        12mbps delivers very little benefit over what is currently available. Labor's first corporate plan gave several examples of the benefits and each of them required 100Mbps as a minimum. Secondly if you have high speed and a small quota you can choose when to use it (e.g. eHealth video conference, education, etc.) whereas under NBNCo's pricing model you cannot ask for 100Mbps on Thursday between 2-3pm.

  9. Phil Kingston

    Alice, Alice, who the flip is Alice?

    Don't get up, I'll let myself out.

  10. Trebus

    Does not make sense

    I do not think the described rules apply in the UK, and they are not applying in TPG's FTTB.

    There are mechanisms to 'shape' the spectrum, chnaging the amplitude in different frequency ranges. Since the VDSL and ADSL spectrum only overlaps for a maximum of 24Mbps worth of spectrum, the higher frequencies can be run at full amplitude. That leaves some 70Mbps+ that will not interfere.

    Since some 50% of the ADSL spectrum is not usable by the time it reaches the node, there is no need to attenuate that part, and the 0-12Mbps part of the spectrum could be attenuated to match the long-distance exchange signals, and still provide better quality signal as well as less interference.

    So really, most of the spectrum is usable without any greater impact on existing services.

    Crosstalk is a function both of amplitude and distance. With the same amplitude as the already attenuated signal plus the reduced distance, the new FTTN will be less disruptive than the exchange signals.

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