"to fall by -6.2%"?
If it falls by a negative number, does that mean it goes up instead?
I'll get my coat, it's the one with the basic math skills in the pocket. =-)p
Windows 10 won't give PC sales a fillip because punters don't think an OS upgrade is enough reason to buy a new computer. So says abacus-wielding firm IDC, whose new Worldwide Quarterly PC Tracker emerged today and predicted “ PC shipments are expected to fall by -6.2% in 2015.” “Windows 10 should be a significant contributor …
The thrust of the article appears to be that Windows is going to be the answer for cross platform deployment and not much else. Frankly the idea that you sell more teapots because you can use a new teabag in chocolate, ice cream and coconut teapots is, well nuts.
If you have a better teabag you promote its better flavour beverage, if its only 'advantage' is that it needs three handles and four spouts forget selling it at all.
In other words the package, whatever it is must be good enough to grab market share in its own right. If it is truly brilliant and yet still runs on slightly used hardware great, Windows H8 made the error of trying to force hardware upgrades to match the software and that worked so well that it should be repeated - oh hang on perhaps NOT.
If Windows 10 really is a great package and really will run properly on slightly older hardware and if it really will bring forward new benefits some of that will translate into new hardware sales. At least it won't come with the don't buy tag that WindowsH8 earned from me when my test mule was artificially barred from the party. (And no I still brew my tea in the same vacuum jug teapot I have been using for some years and do not need additional chocolate teapots, coconut shell teapots or for that matter tablets, mobile telephones, bathmats or whatever else that also run Windows.)
"If Windows 10 really is a great package and really will run properly on slightly older hardware and if it really will bring forward new benefits some of that will translate into new hardware sales."
That's the main issue, I think. For some it probably will be a great package but for most (in my opinion, of course) it won't be. From what I've seen so far it isn't a great advance on Windows 8.1.
Add to that the potential PR disaster they're going to get when people unthinkingly take advantage of the free upgrade from Windows 7 and find they've lost Media Center, and it's hard to see anything positive for future PC sales.
Still, we might find hardware prices dropping to clear the unbought stock.
I bloody will, I've been using it for years. It's quick and easy to navigate, the family can manage it, and it works well as a PVR/DVR/whateverwe'recallingthemthesedays.
I have dabbled with a whole bunch of other alternatives, and none of them come close in usability terms. A lot of the supposed competition don't support tuners at all.
Mind you, perhaps it's time I ditched the tuners and stopped paying the licence fee, anyway.
Well, I tried it, and it is perhaps slightly better thought out than most other FOSS offerings I've tried. But the UI is still full of nasty little gotchas that make it unusable on a family media centre PC, and the setup routine is frankly horrible - separate channels scans for each of four identical tuners? Seriously?
There is NOTHING special about "usability" in MCE.
The only advantage it has when it comes to tuners is the DRM infested ones they use in America.
Plus, that's even only relevant for land line cable monopolies. Those DRM tuners don't support American sat service at all.
"Would many people notice Media Center [sic] vanishing?"
Way too many, I assure you.
There's a tribe of Windows users out there, that although they'll happily click on and install whatever uninvited email link that shows up in their inbox; they will vehemently resist any software recommendation from friends with the cry, "I only trust Windows!"
Even Ripley can't believe how obtuse otherwise normal people can be when it comes to computers.
The loss of Media Center?!... I never knew it had one... At least One that was actually worth a Damn... Microsoft's WOOONDerful Media Center was sooo great at its tasks... It drove me to the dark side of linux where I learnd that VDR, or MythTV, made for a way better "Media Center" then anything MicroSoft could ever cack out of their anus, and onto the World.
So let us not worry to deeply about Media Center... Its the One place that that might have been useful to all of ±10 People all in the US.... Had MicroSoft actually addressed the fact that DVB-C, and DVB-S(2), had also existed, and mad those work... Sans DVB-S(2) pre Windows 7. I might not have as much hate for it as I do. As it is though... I'll for One won't be loosing much sleep over it.
Watch out for the UEFI Secureboot in case you might want to run anything other than MS sanctioned (including older versions of Windows too). Faced with a drop in revenue Microsoft might finally wink at the hardware manufacturers and that little check box for disabling SB will silently go the way of the dodo bird.
> are now blaming Microsoft for the dark deeds they have yet to perform. Or even announce.
"""At its WinHEC hardware conference in Shenzhen, China, Microsoft talked about the hardware requirements for Windows 10. The precise final specs are not available yet, so all this is somewhat subject to change, but right now, Microsoft says that the switch to allow Secure Boot to be turned off is now optional. Hardware can be Designed for Windows 10 and can offer no way to opt out of the Secure Boot lock down."""
Only PCs that are sold complete with Windows will potentially suffer from that. If you build your own as discussed, you won't have to worry about it. When buying a laptop it could be an issue, which is easily solved by only buying ones that have a 14 day money back guarantee and exercising it if they do that and telling them why.
Specialty computers, which is one of the areas I play in, will always have the disable/enable check-box or the manufacturers of the motherboards are going to find themselves sitting on a ton of stock going nowhere. The whole world will hear about the cries for revolution on the gaming/overclocker/specialist communities. Auto-da-fe will be the order of the day. Extreme defenestration, with prejudice, of all Microsoft personnel will occur.
Yes, they might try that. In which case I might buy some stock in whoever makes Orville Redenbacker these days. Lots of it. Should be great fun! Goes great with popcorn --->
re: "creep dial":
The first time I installed and ran Win10 I immediately noticed that the OS is now aware if it's running in a virtual machine (or not) using the advanced display of task manager.. Now that the OS is aware of this, I can't help but wonder if MS is going to decide to change how it's licensed or, worse, decide to alter behavior or functionality based on this knowledge. This could potentially affect my use of VMs for development and testing. I am not happy about this.
What I expect the OPmeant was that if the OS behaves differently in a VM than when it is running directly on the silicon then all the testing that currently takes place in VM's will have to go by the wayside.
This frankly sucks bigtime (if this is the case)
It matters little if the copy of Windows that is running in the VM is licensed or not but I am assuming that it is.
Could I faithfully simulate the industrial plant I develop for if W10 works differently in a VM? Maybe I can. If this behaviour extends into the Server world then a good number of devs and sysadmins alike are going to be tearing what little hair they have out by the handful.
I think that MS has to be careful here. Their push to get everything into the cloud may well backfire if this alledged behaviour is true. They really do not want to piss off their corporate cash cows and more than they have done especially after their recent price hikes. I'd bet a pint (see Icon) of T.E.A that for some, the world of Linux could be their next step.
Let's hope that the new found realism that MS seems to have will make this a non-starter.
Microsoft is not worried by users switching to *nix/*BSD, they solved this a long time ago with UEFI Secureboot. They knew people might not want to be herded into unwanted/unloved versions of Windows so they planned in advance. With SB and forced continuous upgrades Microsoft no longer has to ask you "Where do you want to go today?" You'll always be where they want you to be. Cheers!
Obviously I can't speak for MS, but I also run quite a few Windows VMs and I'm not bothered by this. I think it is much more likely that MS have simply realised that they can improve the performance in a VM by not bothering to micro-manage the "hardware" to the same extent as a real system. I'm quite keen on a version of Windows that doesn't try to optimise a disc that exists only in the mind of another machine, doesn't try to use the "free" cycles on a GPU that is actually being emulated at considerable cost elsewhere, and doesn't get confused by a network adapter that is running unexpectedly quickly.
I don't like it one bit.
Not for whatever reason Microsoft is doing it - I'm sure that somebody over there has thought of some good reason for it.
No, what I don't like is the fact that, if Microsoft can detect that it is running in a VM, what's to stop a virus from doing the same ? And adapting its behavior to try to "break out" ?
Note that I have no idea if this is possible, I'm just worried about the possibility.
I'm not sure I agree.
I know lots of people who want / need / have needed a new PC but walking into a store and seeing row after row of that depressing Win 8 UI puts them right off.
Unfortunately, for Microsoft, most have gone out and bought Macs, and they last for ages and run windows very quickly :)
"Unfortunately, for Microsoft, most have gone out and bought Macs, and they last for ages"
Oh those must be magical Macs that never break. I've heard of them too.
"and run windows very quickly"
Unless they are pirating MS has been happy to sell them a proper Windows license and couldn't care less how the OS is used.
>Unfortunately, for Microsoft, most have gone out and bought Macs, and they last for ages and run windows very quickly :)
As long as MS sell the copy of Windows for that Mac do they care?
Especially as seeing Windows on a Mac suggests to the casual viewer that a) Windows runs on some cool-looking hardware and b) Even Mac users prefer Windows to OS X.
I doubt I would want to lose the touch/tablet capability that some fancy Yoga thingy would give me just to have show people a logo.
And the real reason for this is that OEM builds of Windows are truly awful and a clean build of Windows is great.
I've had a couple of customers who run Windows machines and Apple Macbooks.
They bought the Windows desktops for work but just could get on with them due to the noisy buggy OEM builds. SO they moved 90% to the Mac.
I've since rebuilt their Windows 7/8 machines to clean properly configured Windows Installs with just the software they need on them.
"This is great! It...it just works how I want it. So smooth and fast! Why don't they make them all like this?"
So now they are happy using the Windows machine and one of them is so impressed he's decided to not buy a new Macbook.
The secret is Windows works great as a clean build. Most Mac users will have a clean Windows Install.
Microsoft's greatest enemies are the very OEMs that Windows gets installed on. It's time for MS to lay down the law of system builds or they start making more of their own Signature builds available.
I think I read somewhere that Windows 10 will have a clean restore option that will wipe all the bloat and just put Windows 10 back on. Maybe they should add this as a initial start option on first boot?
The secret is Windows works great as a clean build. Most Mac users will have a clean Windows Install.
Every Mac user I've met (and I know many) own and use a Mac because they want to. They prefer the workflow, wide variety of commercial and FOSS software available and enjoy the Unix underpinnings. These are mostly computer enthusiasts, developers and sysadmins who have years of experience with Windows in all of its guises, so very well understand what clean install is. I am also one of these people.
A few others are regular home users who enjoy a low maintenance experience. Some have been burned by poor OEM experiences, as you rightly point out. Others had started with well tuned, custom-built machines and still prefer a Mac.
To this day, I have yet to use a Windows machine that doesn't slow itself down over time and do strange and unpredictable things. This includes high-performance Windows VMs I've built for the sole purpose of running a single application. Give it two years of light usage (and keeping it patched) and it simply won't perform anything like it did when it was fresh.
By contrast my MacBook has run as a daily driver for four years of hard use. It has had three OS upgrades in that time, all installed over each other (not from scratch). I also have dozens and dozens of apps on it. Apart from the shiny key caps, it still looks and runs like it is brand new.
Unfortunately, for Microsoft, most have gone out and bought Macs, and they last for ages and run windows very quickly
Those were the Macs that weren't made unexpandable by liberal gloopings of 3M's magic gunk.
My current laptop (i7, 16G) runs Windows very quickly, and goes out of extended warranty in July. It's nice to know that if anything major goes wrong the answer isn't going to involve a recycling plant and a 4-digit bill.
"I know lots of people who want / need / have needed a new PC but walking into a store and seeing row after row of that depressing Win 8 UI puts them right off."
You did advise them that they can buy Win7 machines from practically any online PC retailer - just go to the business side of the store? or refer them to a local independent system builder...
But yes, I agree the selection of machines now available in stores such as Carphone Warehouse/PC World seems to have been much reduced and of poorer overall quality (probably to encourage replacement in a few years time). But then given I've been purchasing "business-grade" stuff for years now, my assessment criteria might have become skewed.
each revision of windows has always come with an increase in OS cpu overhead and a general slowing of previous windows versions.
For those running on i7 level kit proberbly haven't noticed the performance difference between win7 and 10 unless ofc they use low cpu apps only.
win10 even when optmised and free of debug code is not going to perform like win7 on a core2 and as ever this will get worse as they add more carp.
Personally I will be putting linux on core2 kit and building a new machine for cpu intensive windows apps, those without the know how are going to buy new machines instead, this against the artcles prediction.
"each revision of windows has always come with an increase in OS cpu overhead and a general slowing of previous windows versions."
You just don't know what you're talking about.
Windows Vista was slightly slower than Windows 7 which was slightly slower than Windows 8. Plenty of benchmark results are available to support this fact.
Lies, I actually installed each version as it came out and asside from visa to win7 the newer version invariably ran slower.
If you benchmarks say otherwise then they tested something other than general performance or they were published by shills.
If what you say was true then why have people had to keep upgrading their hardware over the last 30 years?
Why dont you get some old machines and install windows based upon the minimu hardware specification and compare with previous version with and without updates.
Then you can have an opinion based upon fact, certainly I have already done this and you are completely wrong or lying
"Lies, I actually installed each version as it came out and asside from visa to win7 the newer version invariably ran slower."
I specifically mentioned only Windows Vista, Windows 7 and Windows 8.
TL;DR syndrome much?
Win8 vs Win7:
I'm sure the are use cases where the opposites are true.
"If what you say was true then why have people had to keep upgrading their hardware over the last 30 years?"
Because computers break and I believe there have been one or two new features and requirements since I dabbled with AT class computers 30 years ago. If you truly believe the hardware advancements over the past 3 decades are due to Microsoft - shouldn't you be thankful for them?
"Why dont you get some old machines and install windows based upon the minimu hardware specification and compare with previous version with and without updates."
Why don't YOU check the minimum requirements for Vista/7/8 - the operating systems I was speaking of, not some 30-year old dinosaurs. The difference between Vista and 7 is 200MHz in CPU department and the memory requirement was upped to 1GB. The real reason those specs were turned a notch were because the Vista minimum requirements were not realistic to begin with. The change from 7 to 8 is to do with CPU features - NX and SSE2 are a requirement and they rule out anything before Pentium 4 / AMD64. The changes do not relate to CPU usage per se.
I responded to the claim 'each revision of windows has always come with an increase in OS cpu overhead and a general slowing of previous windows versions'
Check the benchmarks I graciously provided or do your own research.
"Then you can have an opinion based upon fact, certainly I have already done this and you are completely wrong or lying"
I think the upvote/downvote ratio for my previous post speaks for itself.
If you're so fucking confident of your knowledge why don't you post with your Reg handle then? There are some perfectly acceptable reasons to post AC but you're just an anonymous coward.
Again all versions of windows when installed on hardware meeting the published minimum hardware specification ran more slowly that the previous OS.
Vista was such a balls up that the following version managed to perform better, win8 fit the normal pattern.
Should I be grateful to microsoft for religating still working hardware to land fill purely to continue their money train, no. Not when the benefits of the revised hardware were consumed purely by the OS and required yet another unnecessary upgrade within a few years.
Over this period at home and work I was required to replace literally tonnes of hardware simply because MS dropped support, good kit that would have continued to meet it's task but was though cheaper to replace than support. If these changes had brought any additional benefit then it would have been reasonable but the changee were only made so MS could continue to sell carp as gold.
As to your upvotes assuming you didnt do them yourself then I assume there are many people making money selling services and products for the MS platform that have a vested interest in whipping the last legs off their cash donkey.
Unix used to be what everyone wanted on their home computer but had to make do with cutdown imatations because of hardware cost, now hardware powerful enough is cheaply availible but still people want to use it's crippled byblow ether because they know no better or because they are tied to MS and fear freedom.
I am not jealose of BillG I simply remember how computing used to be before he stole the subject and made it only about money.
"Again all versions of windows when installed on hardware meeting the published minimum hardware specification ran more slowly that the previous OS."
No they didn't.
"Vista was such a balls up that the following version managed to perform better"
"win8 fit the normal pattern."
Not agreed. Windows 7 and 8 have practically the same requirements and the review links that I graciously provided state that Windows 8 performs just the same or even slightly better.
"Over this period at home and work I was required to replace literally tonnes of hardware simply because MS dropped support, good kit that would have continued to meet it's task but was though cheaper to replace than support. If these changes had brought any additional benefit then it would have been reasonable but the changee were only made so MS could continue to sell carp as gold."
What a load of carp.
You are free to replace your home computer OS with something non-Microsoft. You consider the MS product as "carp", yet you imply that you would have continued to use it at home instead of some other viable option such as Linux or BSD. Why is that? Are all the other operating systems even worse?
Why bother with the anonymous posters? Are you even the same AC I replied to earlier? This will be my last message on this thread.
Lots of folks I know are planning to install the free Win10 when it comes out and are planning a bit of PC upgrading at the same time.
Planning on a new SSD to hold the OS and maybe a new CPU myself.
Bit of an excuse for a boost and I'll still have Win7 to fall back on should Win10 suck goats.
If it works ok on the desktop I'll roll it out to the laptops as well.
I thought once you have ~graded to Win10 you lose the Win7 license, it is "consumed" so fall back might not be the right term.
I could be wrong, I read it in the comments, there is always a fair bit of false information flying about and things also get changed if the bad press is too loud.
For me, if that is true, I will be holding out for some while.
I thought once you have ~graded to Win10 you lose the Win7 license, it is "consumed" so fall back might not be the right term.
One assumes that this is related only to retail Copies, and those with that fancy new UFEI jobie that's gonna nuke your old Windows 7 Key(s)... I for One fail to see how they're gonna prevent me from rolling back to Windows 7 When I'm still on a SLIC BIOS for Windows 7. Assuming they could figuratively nuke my Key(s)... There are plenty of generic OEM Keys for all vendors, all over the Net.. Each one never needing to be remotely activated on-line ever!
If your friends who want to upgrade to Win10 have W7, tell them don't do it. Windows 8.1 started this undesirable habit of wanting to track you. Windows 10 continues this. If you turn off all the anti-privacy settings, Cortana becomes useless. And when search for programs, files, or features on the start menu, Win10 searches with Bing first then your local computer. I know the Mac spotlight search on the top menu bar does this too, but not with Bing search. That doesn't make it right.
With anybody on Windows 8.1, regain your privacy! Do not use a Microsoft account to log in! Turn off Bing universal search. Turn off all the advertisement and location settings. I know we cannot escape tracking, but that doesn't mean we should give up.
I generally only get new windows versions when I am forced to, that is when I decide that all the windows patches have over time slowed down my current machine to the point its either too slow to be productive or too unreliable.
At that point I usually buy a suitably specified new system which comes with the new os. So I went from xp to 7 on my desktop and xp to 8 (win an xp lookalike start menu) on my laptop.
I can't at the current time see me replacing either for some years so I doubt I'll be using 10 for some time and I guess that's the case for a lot of people.
It may be wise to buy one of the last W8 dream machines and then take the free for life upgrade as opposed to waiting for an OEM W10 machine.
MS is being vague about pricing W10 for a reason. I think the reason is the world is being herded into the barn of the SOFTWARE MONTHLY RENTAL FEE scam and it won't be cheap, either.
Also, that would allow corporate/government masters to attach a verifiable unique personal identity to every device which would make mass surveillance so much more convenient.
For me, I am thinking about going to an Apple device, or even straight Linux box.
How much horsepower do you really need to post dumb comments like this?
I can imagine down the line them implementing bundles.
Bundle A. A single Win 10 subscription.
Bundle B. Two Win 10 subscriptions.
Bundle C. A single Win 10 subscription + Xbox Gold
Bundle D. Two Win 10 subscriptions + Xbox Gold + Office 360
Select two items to subscribe to, and get a third free...
How much horsepower do you really need to post dumb comments like this?
Less then you'd think!
I'm kinda sitting on the Fence with this... I might try seeing if I can get a few "Keys" for WinOSX, but in every conceivable notion.... Patch Tuesdays among them! Me thinks we'll be keeping Windows 7 x64 Ultimate 'round a bit longer.... Till ~2020 by the latest... Hopefully by then either MicroSoft will have woken up... Or Linux will have hopefully matured enough... Games-wise to allow those Rats to jump this sinking Barge...
Usually, only consumers buying low-end, cheap machines upgrade the OS and the hardware at the same time. Sure, they are not a trascurable part of the market, but other users have different upgrade approaches. My machines are usually specced high enough they usually run at least two version of Windows before needing replacement.
Anyway people who bought heavily phones and tablets in the past years, now that some devices are mature enough getting the latest model is far less "needed" (especially tablets) may now feel the need of a PC replacement unless their needs are "simple" enough to be fullfilled by the other devices, but most people I know need at least one PC anyway.
Probably HW manufacturer can't now rely on new OS releases to driver sales - it happened on servers where virtualization changed how hardware is used a lot, and it happend on the client side with smartphones and tablets.
Why should I put Money into the hands of Dell & HP, when I can keep it for myself? I'm running the most, longest Generation PC I ever had, an Intel Core2Duo, and I just simply have no reason to ditch it for the next shiny shiny... If anything I'd likely ditch it for a NUC... But for me the PC as it was is a dying beast... The days of the Beige Tower, are over. And as much as you'd like to blame MicroSoft for this... They're just not to blame for this. The PC was a fad, that got... Or is in fact being killed off by a newer fad of iThings, and Phablets. For everything else there might be a NUC. So the rest of the World sans the Banking Classes, are those of the PC Mustard Race, and that's not a market worth bothering with unless your name is AMD, or nVidia...
So yeah IF I could comfortably use Windows OSX on my C2D, as I do with Windows 7 x64 Ultimate... Remind me again why I should give deeply to the Dell & HP Charities again? If they can't smell the writing on the Wall its hardly my problem!
Yeah, Grandma has one. She wants Windows 8.1 exorcised from it. Aside from that, it's sweeeeet. Her words! I've been dropping hints about Windows 10. We'll see.
[Not my cup of tea, but my computers aren't appliances ;-). And frankly, they terrify everyone else.]
>"Yeah, Grandma has one. She wants Windows 8.1 exorcised from it."
Have fun with that one :)
Whilst Classic Shell can made day-to-day usage more friendly, there are still some quirks...
>[Not my cup of tea, but my computers aren't appliances ;-). And frankly, they terrify everyone else.]
For those types of machines I'd recommend a secondhand Xeon set up - they go on ebay for a couple of hundred quid and build quality...
I get the etymology, but I would still tend call it Windows 10 because that's fewer characters to type and it is what Microsoft call it. If I want to make jokes, I'll call it Win6.4 (which isn't literally true anymore, because they renumbered the kernel early in the beta program, but is still morally true because the lack of change under the hood is actually the most appealing feature).
Keeping a range of Win OSs going for software testing is a pain. I use 95 first and often, then Vista, then 7.
If I could rent 10 for the afternoon, that would be great. Returned unscratched and with a full tank.
... or ... oh dear, oh dear... Have I just broken the car analogy law?
I bought a cheap Win 8.1 laptop because I know the 10 upgrade will be free. Would have held off til release of 10 otherwise. Certainly wouldn't have bought at 8.0.
I think businesses will start using Win10 next year after a splurge of testing.. Realistically i don't think we'll ever see a Win95 or XP era sales surge on the back of a Windows OS again. The trend now is to remove bloat, not add.
the spying and laws in place for USA allow for their government to assassinate they own citizens on American soil using drones and such. And yet the people still are dumb founded by windows new colors and latest background photo, they are will to die for it and give away all they freedom.
If any body who uses windows is around my locale, they a direct threat to my frickin safety, seriously though...go away
No they aren't a threat to your safety. If you are actually competent in the "hacking" thang, they're early warning systems that indicate that (any) government or corporates are on to you. After all, you are using them as your on-ramps to the internet, aren't you?
Yeah, if I really did that kind of thing, I've got evil already thought out and available.
Life cycle of hardware is such that every piece of computer hardware has built in obsolescence, user replaces their hardware every 3-5 years, components don't last longer than this. So you might have decline in PC hardware purchases granted, but it is not because they received a free version of an OS, it's because they selected another technology that fulfills their needs such as a tablet. If a free OS upgrade was the doom of a hardware platform Apple would not sell new MacBooks or iMacs,Mac Airs, etc...they have not charged for new version of OSX in over 5 OS generations, their hardware has obsolescence built in thats how they do this.
Wearables are not where the money is going either, due to an enhanced obsolescence factor where these devices are old news in 3 months after purchase makes it too expensive for the common user even to consider. Wearable devices such as the Apple watch are also failures; they do not successfully replace or improve on the item they are focused on, your wrist tech. They are parasite devices that can't survive or stand on their own, they need to be paired to other smart devices to be functional, are just too expensive and one more darn thing to charge every day. To make wearable attractive at the current price range they need to stand on their own as the all in one device. Yes it needs to make me my espresso too.
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