Bonking with Apple is no fun 'cos it's too hard to pay, say punters Apple Pay users find bonking unsatisfying, and once they've tried it many don’t want to do it again, according to a new study. The overall trends appear promising for the fruity firm's foray into personal finance, with 66 per cent of iPhone 6 users having signed up for the service since it launched less than six months ago, …
Apple would prefer you to think that it's their own, exclusive, invention, but ApplePay is just one implementation of the industry-standard EMV Contactless payment protocol.
European customers have had contactless credit cards for over two years now, which, while not the same system (there's less intelligence in the cards), fill the same role as Apple's offering: speeding up low-value card purchases. These cards have the added advantage that you can use them when your phone battery is dead, or when you've lost your phone. There's a limit of around £20/€25/$30 on these transactions, but they're done with a simple tap of the credit card on the reader, much like a contactless subway/mass-transit card (although not as fast).
However, the USA is finally implementing EMV standards for credit card purchases, and it's very likely that merchants will go for terminals that do both Chip+PIN and Contactless. (In the USA, unlike many other countries, the merchant buys the card terminal outright - this is the reason for the delay in upgrading the country's payment infrastructure: the banks could not just swap out the rented terminals and make older systems obsolete like they did elsewhere).
ApplePay is never going to become a dominant player in a market where every credit-card will soon offer the same level of convenience: it'll just be a nice-to-have feature for iPhone users, not something that makes other buyers choose an iPhone (especially as both Android and Windows Phone will soon support contactless card payments too)
The whole NFC thing here in the West is crazy.
The Japanese have their own system, they've had it for a long time, and it works brilliantly. They've had it built into phones for ages, and it's completely normal to use a phone (even a budget phone) to pay on the subway, buy a coffee, newspaper, etc.
So why was it that the existing, functional and completely adequate standard in Japan was ignored by the West? Not Invented Here syndrome? Licensing fees? Hadn't been to Japan and didn't bother doing an IPR search for Japanese patents?
Patent Wars
Of course this raises the possibility of Japanese tech companies pursuing the NFC consortium for patent licensing. Bit like Mitsubishi having invented the Dyson AirBlade hand drier years before Dyson themselves got round to it... Mitsubishi obliged Dyson to withdraw their version.
Nothing to do with patents. It's mainly because the Japanese system relies on other banking, authentication and payment infrastructure that is unique to Japan. To transport such a system to Europe or the USA would require such major changes that you may as well start afresh. The air interface and terminal is a very small part of any contactless payment scheme.
As for the "threat" of Japanese action against NFC, have a look at the membership list of the NFC Forum, it's here: http://nfc-forum.org/about-us/our-members/ Not only are there lots of Japanese names there, but Sony was one of the three founder members of NFC (with Nokia and Philips/NXP)
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What can you do when you discover at the end of the month that your favourite coffee shop charged you £20 for your latte instead of £2. How do you go about proving that the transaction was wrong 30 days later? Perhaps what is needed is to receive some instant record of the transaction so that you can see what you have been charged. Like a small piece of paper with the time, date and amount printed on it?
Seriously though the lack of a receipt is the main reason I won't use contactless. If the bank could immediately send you a text confirming the details once a contactless payment is made then I would consider it. Or just give me a receipt.
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Personally, I cannot see the point of sticking an NFC chip in a phone, be it for GoolePay or ApplePay.
It's another reason to get your phone stolen, it means more parties taking a slice from what you pay which is never good for prices (someone has to pay that overhead, and it's you), and from the provider's perspective it's not a brilliant idea either because they rely on VISA and MAsterCard to carry the transactions, which means they have to hand off money.
In addition, NFC transactions are so risky there is a limit on the value of the transaction.
Am I missing something here?
It is the card processor who pays Apple a very small sum per transaction.(0.015% if my memory serves me right)
The Card details are stored in the security chip on the phone. Then you auth the payment with your finger (yes, you are giving Apple the Finger!)
The difference between this and the other types of payment service is that the merchant does not see your card details. Thus they can't track your shopping habits!
For the likes of Tesco this is not good. I will very surprised if they sign up for apple Pay at launch.
Or is that why Tesco are selling their data analytics company?
Tesco have Clubcard and Tesco credit card to get customer shopping habits.
Generalizing here a bit but I suspect the vast majority of shoppers at Tesco don't give a flying fig roll (aisle 15, next to the ginger snaps) about being tracked through their iphone
"The difference between this and the other types of payment service is that the merchant does not see your card details. Thus they can't track your shopping habits! For the likes of Tesco this is not good. I will very surprised if they sign up for apple Pay at launch."
Yes I'm even more surprised they accept that "Cash" thing, I mean that doesn't even have a unique WiFi / Bluetooth signal that can be tracked around the store.
@Steve Davies 3,
"The difference between this and the other types of payment service is that the merchant does not see your card details. Thus they can't track your shopping habits!
For the likes of Tesco this is not good. I will very surprised if they sign up for apple Pay at launch."
For the likes of Tesco it is irrelevant. The law in the UK prevents retailers retaining credit / debit card details, so they cannot be used for tracking customers' shopping habits anyway. Pay by Bonk doesn't change that existing situation.
This is why they all have loyalty card schemes.
The NFC chip is there so that one can send any number of photos or contact cards to someone else's phone without having to obtain an email address and enter it or have their phone number and text hem or pair with Bluetooth and make a connection or even switch Bluetooth on. Place the phones near, wait for the warble, carry on and stay within a few metres - sorted.
There are other uses for phone NFCs?
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I was doing that 15 years ago with IrDA.
Do you mean you looked for a not-too-bright-place, a flat surface and then attempted to send a vCard? While the rest of us had said 'Call me and hang up, I'll call yuo back and then you'll have my number'.
Mind, nothing got a bird in a pub hotter than aligning IrDAs.....
There are other uses for phone NFCs?
The tags are what convinced me that NFC was useful. The one in my car turns on BT and GPS, turns off WiFi and pairs the phone with the radio. Likewise the tag just in the front door of the house reverses those settings while the one in the bedroom puts it in "bedside mode" and turns on the alarm. The tag in the office toggles the ringtone to a more workplace friendly tone and volume and turns off BT, GPS and WiFi to save battery. Sure, I could probably do the same thing using location based services but to me NFC seems to be a better solution.
Why put a satnav on your phone when your sat nav does the job?
Why put a clock on your phone when your watch does the job?
Why play music through your phone when your MP3 player can do it?
Everything your phone does makes it more valuable (and removes an alternative valuable item).
I'd rather worry about one item than 5, and I'd obviously want to password protect it and remote wipe it.
Satnav in my car works with no mobile service, on a bigger screen and dosen't need sticking down.
Still own a watch (several in fact). Not eveyone is glued to their handset.
MP3s plug into car direct, and wife's old Shuffle is better when running. Or are suggesting I should strap my S5 onto my arm?
Personally I don't worry about any of them, other than myabe my watch, and having a phone has not reduced my concern over my timepiece.
Yes, you're missing something here. Since Apple implements Apple Pay only in those phones/tablets with Touch ID, unless your phone is stolen by German computer enthusiasts with a large supply of Gummi bears and access to your thumb, the thieves can't use Apple Pay with that phone.
Was this survey in the UK or US? I've had no trouble with Apple Pay so far, other than the limited number of actual shops with the right kit to accept it. And every merchant I've used it with has offered a paper receipt.
Since Apple implements Apple Pay only in those phones/tablets with Touch ID, unless your phone is stolen by German computer enthusiasts with a large supply of Gummi bears and access to your thumb, the thieves can't use Apple Pay with that phone.
I have been in the biometrics game for a loong time. If Apple had been so smart to use a swipe based FP reader it would have been OK, but a touch reader stores on its surface the very information you need to breach it: your ridge data. However, if that doesn't work, the rest of the iPhone comes to the rescue as it is AND touch AND shiny, conveniently storing FPs for the wannabee hacker to use.
I have an iPhone 6, but TouchID is off. It also has an oleophobic screen cover, but that's more because I don't want to develop that peculiar mobile phone OCD where you wipe the thing after every call, and I prefer a matte screen surface anyway. I ought to check if it does indeed get in the way of storing proper FP ridge data - would be an unexpected bonus.
Does 'a number of iPhone users in my office' count as a representative sample? You might just be in a cluster who feel the need to flash their iPhone at any and every opportunity. Wait... iPhone users... never mind.
But Aldi and Lidl??? They don't seem like the kind of stores favoured by the stereotypical iPhone flasher. Thought you lot were all M&S and Waitrose.
2 more waiting in this house alone... and no we don't shop at Waitrose... nothing wrong with Lidl and Aldi..... Flashing the phones? no more than the Android users do.,.. my phone comes out if I need to use it, I wont shed any tears if that offends people like you.
I cant say I even missed the NFC functions that much when I first moved to the iPhone - With my S3LTE I used to use NFC to switch Blu tooth on and off and move between mobile data and wifi in car/home/work but as the 6+ I now have doesn't murder a battery in less than a working day I no longer need to worry. The car still has tags in it, but they are never used.
It must be strange in your world of stereotypes...
Not so much worked up as wondering why there is so much focus on the "failings" of apple when Samsung products have disappointed me on such a wide basis that i wouldn't have another one as a gift due to abysmal battery life and buggy software.
You don't seem to see that for many the worth of something branded is not its Image... but its ability to fulfill the function or purpose that it serves, Aldi/Lidl have a decent range at good prices, My iPhone 6 performs well in all the things I use it for AND can last through my working day - which the previously owned unit didn't. My choice was driven by practicality, something that I could use and would remain useful through the day, the previous unit - allegedly offering more facilities did most things poorly and nothing outstandingly well (apart from running out of power)
Finally, your office isnt a representative sample - nor is any other workplace really,
"But Aldi and Lidl??? They don't seem like the kind of stores favoured by the stereotypical iPhone flasher. Thought you lot were all M&S and Waitrose."
Not stereotypical perhaps, but typical.. Sure.
There is a big gulf between how one sees one's self, and how one actually is.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QMhOIySiyE
Remember, after paying for the cHav phone and the extra special contract, Aldi and Lidl are all they can afford.
Aldi now take contactless credit and debit cards.
I've found using contactless cards (with the exception of an American Express card which doesn't seem to work everywhere) really easy and thankfully more places are taking them now. The only annoyance is the few badly-trained cashiers in some shops who insist on having you "insert your card" before they will activate the card terminal meaning by then it's too late to bonk.
Considering how easy a contactless credit card payment is, I can't see why I'd want to use a phone to do the same thing. The card payments are quick, easy and just work. No batteries required.
"If Apple got the likes of Aldi and Lidl..."
That might be a bit of a problem. The likes of Apple have one kind of market, the high "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it." end of the market. Aldi and Lidl more for the "Watch every penny end."
On the other hand if someone has splashed out on an iThing then maybe they do need to watch what little money they have left.
I can see your point Aldi and Lidl are so up market and luxury just like Apple...
Oh hang on a minute!
The phone I use has a particular function I use to the exclusion of any others. While I am out it almost never leaves my pocket let alone gets waved about,but I can still communicate. It will never use NFC and I doubt I will either.
Oh I don't use Aldi and Lidl either, too expensive as they are the other side of town.
"'Excuse me Barkeep, do you accept cash in this fine establishment?'"
Or rather "do you accept wireless cards..."
AFAICS the mobile networks and phone makers sat on their hands for so long that the contactless payment market marched on by, and they're now playing catch up. In theory an NFC phone and a contactless card are duplicative, except that the phone invariably requires an "e-wallet" between my bank account and my phone, and potentially carries additional complications and hazards.
As long as I carry a physical wallet with cash and assorted ID's, then there's no real benefit to me in using a phone for payments, and in this respect the phone industry would have been better off (a) improving default handset and system security, and (b) routing into contactless payments by getting third parties to tie NFC IDs to subscribers and loyalty schemes (so, eg, my phone NFC chip could identify me as a National Trust/Clubcard/RNLI or other member).
In their haste to "own the money", the phone industry ignored that they needed to "own the pocket" first. Obviously "owning the handbag" may be a bigger challenge.
If I reach into my pocket for a phone, I can reach into it for my wallet, where taking some (wait for it) 'cash' out while queuing, has served me well for many a year. Or maybe make a card payment too, as chip n pin isn't slow in my book.
To me it's just mobile makers and networks trying to get in where I don't want them; they give me texts and calls which is lovely, thank you. However I'll go elsewhere to pay for stuff and things.
And for the same reason I've never tried contact less with the abundance of cards I have that take them. I just don't see a compelling reason, unless someone here can tell me what I'm missing?
Cheers AC, I do get those points but I don't see how it's easier than handling cash?
I need cash. The Tyne Tunnel needs cash, or more rather change, to let me in (or out!), the buttie van I get my lunch from needs cash and my window cleaner knocks on expecting cash. And I don't find myself specifically making trips to the cash point either; cashback or cashpoints at the supermarket or garage does not inconvenience me one bit. What slows me down is people queuing and then deciding what they want at the bar, or queuing and then fidgeting for their wallet or purse. THAT is what slows queues down, no the transaction at the other end!
It's not a resistance to change for me, I just don't see the point. At all.
You don't see the point? It makes things so much easier for small purchases. Have you ever been waiting to buy a drink and the guy in front of you is paying using chip & pin or cash? Wait for him to insert the card, make sure no one can see him enter his pin, hand the terminal back to the cashier, wait for the paper slip to print. As for cash, wait for them to get your change, check it's right and then you're carrying something that's been in countless peoples hands. Chip and pin is a god send!
I can't wait for them to up the limit to £30. While £20 is OK it is the only downside. You're also only allowed a maximum of 5 purchases a day using it and if someone pinches your card and tries to make a couple of transactions in the same store they can't. You're then forced to use chip & pin.
I hardly every carry cash, things like the tunnel taking cash won't be around for long. The number of small merchants who now have chip & pin terminals on 3G is amazing. Perhaps it's just in the civilised south! ;)
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"you're carrying something that's been in countless peoples hands."
So? Is that really a problem? Seriously, we really do seem to moving more and more to some sort of sterile world where people are afraid of a bit of dirt or common everyday germs. It's all a conspiracy by the cleaning agent manufactures marketing departments!
"The Tyne Tunnel needs cash, or more rather change, to let me in (or out!)"
Not any more! 10% discount for using a pre-paid tag on the windscreen. Sort of a PAYG thing, unlike the old permits which required you to use the tunnel both ways at least 4 days a week to make it economic. Interestingly, you can pay by card online to top up, but if you cancel, they will refund you by putting a cheque in the post. Technology? We've heard of it.
One down, 400 outlets more to go :-)
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Nope, I still don't see your point I'm sorry to say.
15 seconds? Wasn't that in Tesco twenty minutes ago, including topping up my wallet with 50 quid; much slower than you having to make a specific trip to the cashpoint; I’m assuming cashback is not available on contactless? No, even with 5 or so people in front, it just isn't that slow using chip and pin.
Dirty contacts? Forgotten PINs? As opposed to the 'Sorry that didn't go through the reader is playing up, I'll cancel this one and the try swiping it again'. Yeah, really not slow at all.
NFC. How does one pay on a mobile without a bank account? That's a genuine question, I don't know (never used it) but I thought you either had it linked to your bill or had to top up the wallet, such as the Vodafone SmartPass mentioned above. Can't see many networks doing that without a bank account?
Dirty stinking banknotes? Shops without change? Do you actually go out and buy stuff? You're not exactly describing my typical transactions although I'll happily concede it may be your experience if that's what you tell me, but I go in, pick up the item hand cash and get change. No problems experienced on the small (sorry, I should say 'micro'......) transactions that pay-by-bonk is all about.
40 years old next month, total wallets lost zero. Mobiles lost zero. And if I did lose my wallet, my chip n pin cards would remain harder to use in an before cancelling than a contactless one wouldn’t it? In fact, thank you, another compelling reason not to use them or indeed register the service.
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a carbon copy of the numbers, which was later recovered from an ordinary dustbin
FTFY - let's not forget that "card not present" has been a source of fraud since someone came up with the idea of telemarketing and CNP payments were accepted despite the risk to the customer..
How convenient is paying by phone, compared to paying by card?
A lot of shops offer loyalty and/or membership cards. You have to produce these at the tills when you get served. So, you have to take out your purse/wallet when you get served. That means that, in order to use your phone to pay, you have to take out your phone and wallet. Use a card and you need just your wallet.
Phone apps that offer to display your card barcode aren't convenient, unlock your phone, open the app, find the option to display the barcode, hand over your phone to the cashier, wait for them to try and scan it, fail, hand it back to you, then you fish out the bit of plastic out of your wallet.
Add that to the fact that a large proportion of shops etc will not take the phone payment method. This means you have the added embarrassment of flashing your expensive shiny, only to sheepishly put it away after the cashier tells you that they don't accept it. So, you have to use your card anyway.
As you have to have your card at the ready anyway, what's the point in trying to use your phone?
Seems to me that NFC payments are a solution looking for a problem, with a whole lot more problems itself than it solves.
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Nonsense. You talk as if having a couple of dollars for bottles of water (not large amounts) is going to attract attention.
Cards I typically leave in the hotel unless I need CASH or am going to buy something and I'd rather not use the CASH I have.
Try going to Borneo via Brunei and buy something int he airport with a card. You'll have fun there.... :-)
A link with a bit more meat from the Pheonix article from Macalope at Macworld last week:
Reading comprehension: Misunderstanding Apple surveys continues apace
I used Apple Pay for the first time on Saturday. It was a "Gee, that's kind of cool.... but so what?" event.
I have yet to find a merchant terminal that will take my 6-month-old chipped Visa. Some of them have slots for the card but they don't work and I have to swipe the magstrip instead. Cashiers have been ignorant about the issue.
Presumably Apple are hoping that their apple watch integration with Apple Pay is going to be more appealing to people, and will land in an environment that is ready to receive it.
I can't help thinking that they would have been better off planning to launch in the UK and Europe where contactless payments have been freely available for a couple of years though - where the process was already much more accepted. I know they couldn't tout the 'much more speedy' angle than they did in their launch video, but still...
Earlier this year a new credit card arrived.
I knew what it was as it lay on the mat - you could see the outline embossed on the envelope. It was deliverd by ordinary post, and there was no receipt validation procedure.
Shortly afterwards I went into a caff (called itself a coffee house) spent £15, and handed over the card to pay. The assistant bonked it without asking me, and it was accepted.
So that card could easily have been stolen before it reached me, and used an unknown number of times before asking for the pin, at £20 (soon £30) a pop.
I have raised a formal complaint with my bank over how insecure the system is, but I am not optimistic about getting a useful result.
Most Japanese phones come with a full Felica chip, not a cut-down basic NFC like Apple, so have more smarts. I use my phone as my season ticket and ad-hoc rail ticket, to buy my morning coffee at a convenience store, and can easily either set it to refill from my credit card automatically, or manually with a quick password entry on a phone app. I just say "SUICA" at the checkout, the staff press the right button on the till, and a quick bonk and it's all over with no drama.
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