back to article Apple boots Windows 7 out of Boot Camp

The Cupertino fruit factory has decided to boot old versions of Windows out of the camp, quietly not-announcing that only Windows 8 and 10 will run on the latest flavours of the dual-boot "Boot Camp" utility that ships with this year's new Macs. The new policy means that the recently-announced MacBook Air and 13” MacBook Pro …

  1. jerkyflexoff

    Apples values.

    Not letting your device boot into a certain OS. This stinks, and is just another reason, in the list of many, Apple is controlling, and only interested in spinning money.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apples values.

      And yet - this also seems consistent with Microsoft's desire to push Windows users away from 7 and earlier. Makes me wonder if there's a behind-the-scenes deal.

      Anyway, it's VirtualBox and Microsoft Bob for me. Almost instant startup/shutdown and a very friendly helpful little guide who's only price for his services seems to be full knowledge about myself.

      1. Mondo the Magnificent
        Thumb Up

        Re: Apples values.

        I have to agree with that, it seems as if Windows 7 has got what I call "XP Syndrome" with users being quite satisfied with every element of it and sticking to it.. while MS would rather have us "upgrading" to the newer Windows revisions..

        My 10.9.5 "Mavericks" MacBook still supports Windows 7 via Boot Camp, but I also opted to VirtualBox, it's just so much more convenient seeing as Apple also abandoned LINUX support in Boot Camp some while back.

        1. Frank N. Stein

          Re: Apples values.

          Abandoned Linux support in Bootcamp? That sounds like part of a Microsoft plot too, since Microsoft can't charge punters for using Linux, as it doesn't violate any Microsoft patents. Of course, I can't prove it, but I suspect it. Microsoft didn't kill Linux with their support of the SCO lawsuit, but they'll do anything they can to reduce usage of it on the desktop. Microsoft can't do anything about Linux server use, as it apparently scales higher than NT, I mean Windows Server whatever the version of it is now.

          1. JEDIDIAH

            Re: Apples values.

            I never used bootcamp when running alternative operating systems on Mac hardware.

            I just set the appropriate (different) partition and boot sector options in the MacOS partitioning tool.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Boot Camp

          As a Mac Pro user, I have no idea why people use boot camp at all. Why spend the amount of money that you do buying a piece of Apple hardware and then run Windows as the primary OS. If you're doing that, why not just buy a Dell?

          Personally I've always used VMWare Fusion, which allows me to spin up XP or Win 7 (which are the only Windows licenses I own, and no I have no intention of buying a Win8 or later license!) ... the Windows guest runs in the background, and I can launch and very few Windows apps I still use on my Mac desktop.

          Fusion is nice because it has good support for the other OSsen which I mess about with from time to time - namely FreeBSD and OpenSolaris, and interoperates with the full-blown vSphere ecosystem when upgraded to the pro version.

          1. g7rpo

            Re: Boot Camp

            Have to admit, I never understood this either, I don't use Macs at all, but always confused me why people would pay a premium for a Mac and then run windows on it,

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Boot Camp

            "As a Mac Pro user, I have no idea why people use boot camp at all. Why spend the amount of money that you do buying a piece of Apple hardware and then run Windows as the primary OS."

            Because you're the kind of hipster twat who wants to buck the trend and actually be productive?

      2. Michael Habel Silver badge

        Re: Apples values.

        a very friendly helpful little guide who's only price for his services seems to be full knowledge about myself.

        Who Larry Page?!

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Apples values.

        Windows 7 is so 2009. I doubt you can still buy standard laptops / PCs with Windows 7 pre-installed?

        Think MS ended mainstream support for Windows 7 in January this year?

        1. h4rm0ny

          Re: Apples values.

          >>"Think MS ended mainstream support for Windows 7 in January this year?"

          Worth clarifying what is meant by "mainstream support". That ends this year, but MS will continue to supply security fixes and bug fixes until 2020. End of "mainstream support" just means the standard support to end users. You can still purchase extended support packages for quite a while as well. It came out six years ago, but it's not like its suddenly abandoned.

        2. Frank N. Stein

          Re: Apples values.

          Actually, you can still buy re-conditioned laptops with Windows 7 pre-installed, but finding a Netbook with Windows 7 Pre-installed that isn't the cut down version, is near impossible. Microsoft did whatever they could to kill the Netbook. Apple brought it back and made it prettier, with less ports for external connectivity.

        3. Anonymous Blowhard

          Re: Apples values.

          As far as I know, you can still buy Windows 7 pre-installed on Dell business PCs; I just ordered a Precision M6800 with Windows 7 (free upgrade to Windows 8.1 is included in the license).

        4. J__M__M

          Re: Apples values.

          "I doubt you can still buy standard laptops / PCs with Windows 7 pre-installed"

          says the guy who obviously doesn't buy many computers....

        5. Tim Bates

          Re: Apples values.

          "I doubt you can still buy standard laptops / PCs with Windows 7 pre-installed?"

          You certainly can! Sales of new PCs where I work is almost purely Windows 7. Toshiba, Asus and HP have many an option in laptops with 7 preinstalled still.

      4. Frank N. Stein

        Re: Apples values.

        As soon as I heard about this, first thing I thought was, Microsoft paid Apple to insure Windows 7 doesn't run on the new Macbook and MBP. But there's another solution. If you must have 7, buy a re-conditioned Windows Laptop that can run 7 and call it a day. You'll have a dedicated Windows 7 machine and dedicated Macbook. It doesn't really get you off Windows 7 or stop you from running it, but if you must have that new Macbook, not being able to run Windows 7 on it, won't stop you from getting it.

    2. FIA Silver badge

      Re: Apples values.

      Not letting your device boot into a certain OS. This stinks,

      They're not preventing you booting a certain OS, they've just decided not to write drivers for an operating system that was EOLd before the hardware was released. According to the linked apple support article they've not removed windows support from older machines, just not added it to newer machines. Which, considering it's probably a not insignificant cost to develop/test and support such drivers really isn't a huge deal.

      and is just another reason, in the list of many, Apple is controlling, and only interested in spinning money.

      That's how companies work; they make money. It's okay though, you can buy a laptop from another manufacturer and install what you like.

      1. JEDIDIAH
        Linux

        Re: Apples values.

        > they've just decided not to write drivers

        It's just a PC. In fact, it's a pretty mundane PC.

        What does Apple have to do with device drivers for it? Device drivers should be coming from Intel and AMD and Nvidia and Realtek and such.

        1. FIA Silver badge

          Re: Apples values.

          What does Apple have to do with device drivers for it?

          Well, I assume you'd want your nice new vibrating touchpad to work? ;)

          1. Adze

            Re: Apples values.

            Well, I assume you'd want your nice new vibrating touchpad to work? ;)

            Yes, oh... oh... OH! YES YES YES!... sigh... I love you Macbook.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apples values.

      This is a non-issue where I work. You want to use a Mac, feel free, but it is unsupported by campus IT because of the idiotic restrictions and incompatibilities Apple places on their OS. If it breaks you take it down to the Apple store a half hour away and let the "geniuses" figure it out.

      We still have a few holdouts, but that is because of the owners stubbornness. Each has a Windows machine to work on the LAN / WAN.

      The primary purpose of an Apple machine is to talk to iTunes so they can sell you more crap you don't need. Actually getting work done comes a hard second.

    4. Dieter Haussmann

      Re: Apples values.

      They just mean they are not shipping Windows 7 drivers for the new hardware. A quick google usually finds the solution such as manually installing them individually or obtaining OE drivers for graphics chip etc..

    5. J__M__M

      Re: Apples values.

      How does apple make money on this? By selling _older_ machines?

  2. Mage Silver badge
    Trollface

    I'm not worried

    I can't afford an Apple box.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I'm not worried

      Remember the purchase cost is not the TCO.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm not worried

        "Remember the purchase cost is not the TCO."

        Too right. Cheap laptop £350, SQL Server £0, Visual Studio £0, Android studio £0, MS Office Enterprise £17. Total Cost £367.

        Average since purchase of £73 per year.

        Total number of days cheap laptop has been in for repair 0. Number of parts replaced 0. Number of times I've walked into a sterile soulless shop and had to ask to talk to a "genius" 0.

        Now, how long does it take a £1000 Macbook to achieve an annual TCO that matches that?

    2. John Bailey

      Re: I'm not worried

      <quote>I can't afford an Apple box.</quote>

      Have you tried asking the people in the supermarket produce section very nicely? They are usually happy to give away the empty ones for free.

      1. Fink-Nottle

        Re: I'm not worried

        > They are usually happy to give away the empty ones for free.

        Make a reservation to talk with a Fruit and Veg Genius at your nearest Tesco today!

  3. LDS Silver badge

    Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

    ... those who just migrated to 7 won't jump to 10 soon, and will skip 8. But it looks Apple is more and more consumer oriented only - just look how it's dropping professional applications like Aperture for consumer oriented ones like Photos.

    1. Ralph B

      Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

      It does look odd, doesn't it? Window 7 is still at 56% of OS market share. And Windows 8.x & 10 are together less that 15%.

      Why would they turn their back on the biggest fraction of their potential customers? A fraction which is 10x bigger than that of current Mac OS users?

      1. Danny 14 Silver badge

        Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

        At least there is an option to legally install a windows OS on an apple device. The converse isn't strictly true.

        1. MonkeyCee

          Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

          Sure you can't officially stick OSX on a PC, but Apple are really not concerned about you actually doing it.

          I've built a number of hackintosh boxen, and you can even buy them complete in certain EU countries that actually follow them anti-competative laws (eg Germany).

          Bootcamp is nice for what it is, and it really shows what a shit job HP, Dell etc do with driver install. Install Windows onto a intel based mac consists of install OS, install combined driver package, reboot. Why the PC manufacturers can't get the equivalent done right, so you need 6-12 driver packages that always seem to be created once and left. Don't get me started on the useless restore disks...

          However, most fruity trypes are _much_ better off with VMware, Parellels or other such software, since they won't have to reboot the whole box each time they need to do the 'doze. Plus you get to use the image you want, rather than having Apple force you down MS upgrade path.

          As for the designed obsolescence, yeah, Apple is a pain. When they've not actually broken the hardware (connectors, glued battery) they actively break the ability to upgrade without spending. Which is a shame, since I have a few clients who still use macs that are nearly as old as me (mmmm, beige boxen) and a fair few who's G4/5 based machines still chug along just fine.

          As for Windows, 2000 and XP still work very well, you can even get XP to use the full memory range (ish), I've yet to find any real issue with 7, and I've yet to find anyone who finds 8.1 (or 8) an improvement.

          Maybe we need a Worstall article about how making a really good product is actually bad for a company that is reliant on a constant revenue. The Laserjet problem maybe :)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

            It's been said before that the best Windows laptop is a Macbook.

            1. BristolBachelor Gold badge

              Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

              "It's been said before that the best Windows laptop is a Macbook

              Yeah, but that was some time before. Now no option for a power user - 17" screen? Nope. Anti-mirror screen? Nope. Just been looking, and shudder - the upgrade for a MBP seems to be a Dell mobile workstation - twice the ram, twice the processor, 4 GPU options (no idea if they'll fail the same way as the one in the MBP though) - heck it even has a network port to connect to a network!

              At the last moment Apple agreed to replace the motherboard in the MBP, so it's staying, but the replacement wouldn't have been a new MBP.

          2. Chris Parsons Bronze badge

            Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

            @MonkeyCee

            The plural of 'box' is 'boxes', or maybe that's not cool enough?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

              @Chris Parsons

              Boxen is well within El Reg house and forum style (e.g. if discussing old equipment, a plurality of Digital VAX machines = VAXen) - try again.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

        Or maybe they have looked at the number of people this affects - I upgraded to a Mac years ago. Still need a few Windows "legacy" apps but you can run as a VM. Suspect not many people dual boot and when you have to install Windows you may as well install 8.x or later surely. There probably are some people who have apps that only run on 7.x (but probably few) but if someone does not move the market on people would still be running XP.

        Oh they are...

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

        Microsoft ended mainstream support for 7 in January this year. Yes they carried on with XP for about 13 years and Windows 7 is "only" 6 years old but you can see the end is coming for Windows 7.

        Although I'm sure there are still plenty of people running XP (and connecting to the Internet) - despite knowing the very clear risks!

    2. Captain Scarlet

      Re: Looks stupid from an enterprise perspective...

      "those who just migrated to 7 won't jump to 10 soon"

      I would assume home users would have gone for 8, business users I doubt would get a free upgrade to 10 anyway. I must admit I will where I can be making sure the free upgrade is taken advantage of.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Bit crap, that.

    Doesn't worry me so much; Windows 7 runs perfectly well as a VM, on a sufficiently powerful Mac. Sucks for anyone who needs full performance though. For enterprise, Windows 7 is still standard.

    1. Cliff

      Re: Bit crap, that.

      Not your computer.

      Apple's computer. That you paid for and they don't want back.

      (Waiting patiently for the downvotes)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Yeah, the effing Etch-a-Sketch wasn't mine either

        According to the bloody EULA, I couldn't draw round things!

  5. Neil Alexander

    You can probably still install Windows 7 64-bit in pure EFI mode without Boot Camp if you wanted to. You don't "need" Boot Camp to run Windows on a Mac.

    1. Bronek Kozicki

      I thought Windows 7 is not compatible with pure EFI mode, it seems to require INT10 which is only available through CSM. At least, that's what I found on https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh824898.aspx although I do not insist that my interpretation is correct.

      I guess the deal is that Apple does not want to support CSM any more, which would be required to install Windows 7. Not that I care, I run my Windows as virtual machines on "oversized" PC where hypervisor is Linux kvm.

      1. Neil Alexander

        My understanding was only Windows 7 32-bit needed BIOS emulation due to the weird Apple EFI firmware, and that 64-bit was capable of running natively in EFI mode without issues. I might be mistaken.

        In any case, Windows 8 and upwards definitely run natively in EFI mode, so yes, it is probably Apple's way of housekeeping and removing things from firmware they really don't have any incentive to support.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          "Apple's way of housekeeping and removing things from firmware they really don't have any incentive to support."

          Except thier customers use it, but that's never stopped them or, it seems, their "accept anything as long as it's shiny" client base from parting with their cash.

          1. Neil Alexander

            Apple have provided Boot Camp because it's actually been pretty easy for them to do, not because it helps to sell their computers or gain them cash. If their hardware/firmware did not support it then Apple would simply have never provided Boot Camp in the first place - they would not have gone out of their way, make no mistake.

            A salesman in an Apple Store isn't going to sell you the thing based on its ability to run Windows. People who buy Macs most of the time don't care in the slightest about Windows, and nobody knows that better than Apple.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    An odd decision by Apple

    From what I've seen, Windows 7 is the most recent version anyone uses.

    1. Tim Almond

      Re: An odd decision by Apple

      Apple are just awful in terms of support.

      I need to build a Phonegap app. So, I acquire an old Mac Mini off a mate. Install Snow Leopard, a 3 year old OS, and it can't install the latest XCode. And I also can't upgrade the machine to Mavericks, either.

      By comparison: the latest Visual Studio will run on XP, a 14 year old OS. Yes, it'll probably run like a dog on an old XP machine, but you should have that option.

      1. Sir Lancelot

        Re: An odd decision by Apple

        Seems to me you didn't do your homework and now you are blaming Apple for that. Developer I presume?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: An odd decision by Apple

        I had a similar requirement for Mac development - so bought OSX Lion for £20 and duel booted my Windows PC.

        Works fine and have since upgraded to Yosemite and latest XCode with no issues. I did make sure I had compatible motherboard, graphics cards etc first though.

        I now spend more time in OSX than Win7. Might go over to the Apple side entirely and give VirtualBox a try for the Windows only software but I expect games will not be playable.

      3. Pet Peeve

        Re: An odd decision by Apple

        Snow Leopard is 6 years old.

        1. BristolBachelor Gold badge

          Re: An odd decision by Apple

          "Snow Leopard is 6 years old."

          Bought a MBP new in 2012 and it came with Snow Leopard. Bloody Apple ripped me off then? Selling me a 3 year old OS?

          Lion came out shortly after in 2012 (or 2013?) and is OK. Mountain Lion never worked. The latest greatest also seems to have lots of problems amounts those I know who upgraded, not only that networking doesn't work!

          The problem with Xcode is a bit unfair. I think that officially Lion is no longer available, but see if you can beg permission to buy an upgrade - it was only something like £10

          1. Jess

            Re: An odd decision by Apple

            Abandoning Snow Leopard is quite annoying. it is the last OS that can run Power PC programs, that keeps many people on it. 32 bit machines (that includes those with 64 bit processors, but 32 bit firmware) cannot upgrade to the new free OSes.

            Most Mac users I know are using SL (or earlier, on PPCs.) I can't see any reason to move to Yosemite (it's fugly too) other than software support being dropped, (and even Tiger on PPC still has well maintained Firefox and Thunderbird ports).

            You pay a premium for Macs, but that is usually reflected in the quality and longevity of the devices (except when they have design faults) Good ones are usually perfectly usable at 10 years old. (I am typing this on a G5, which is far quicker than a *cheap* new PC.) So it is a dirty trick trying to pull the plugs so soon.

      4. Justin Clift

        @Tim Almond - Re: An odd decision by Apple

        You can still download Xcode for OSX 10.6 from Apple.

        You don't get it through the Apple store though, you need to grab it from https://developer.apple.com.

        Once you're signed in there (you'll need an id), the full download URL is:

        http://adcdownload.apple.com/Developer_Tools/xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3__final/xcode_3.2.6_and_ios_sdk_4.3.dmg

        [hmmm, that address isn't showing above correctly. the href in it is fine though]

        You can find the Xcode download in the list yourself once on the site, but it's a few pages in. ;)

        Oh, and use Safari when you go to the developer.apple.com site. It seems to reliably load the page better, whereas Firefox / Opera / Chrome can be a bit hit and miss. (for me anyway)

  7. Dan 55 Silver badge

    I imagine tricking the Boot Camp Assistant will still work

    If you wanted Windows XP on Boot Camp you ran the assistant, unticked everything apart from 'Install Windows 7', continued put the Windows 7 install DVD in, when it rebooted you held Alt until the startup screen appears, swapped the DVD for a Windows XP one, and continued booting. You got an XP install unsupported by Apple which still worked in Boot Camp.

    So I imagine that you will be able to do the same with a Windows 8 install DVD and a Windows 7 one, except for perhaps on the very latest machines which may have an EFI which doesn't support Windows 7.

  8. Pet Peeve

    Not new

    I couldn't officially install windows 7 on my 2013 mac pro. This is not new.

  9. Deej

    I didn't think Boot Camp was really that widely used?

    As per the title - I didn't think Boot Camp was that widely used; not when you have the likes of Parallels and VMware so you can run a different OS in a VM.

    Can't say I've used Boot Camp in a very long time (but was using my Windows 10 VM only yesterday)..

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I didn't think Boot Camp was really that widely used?

      Really the only reason to use dual boot / bootcamp is a slight performance gain but I gave it up 2 years ago as the convenience and security of running it as a VM instead won over. Anyone buying a new Mac is unlikely to have too much of an issue running at least Windows 8.

      Let's not forget Windows 7 is already going back to 2009 (almost 6 years) and no-one is saying you can't run it - I do - as a VM.

    2. Jay 2

      Re: I didn't think Boot Camp was really that widely used?

      I only use it (on my 2013 iMac) to play Elite Dangerous. Hopefully the Mac client will be good and then I won't have to bother.

      However, the entire Bootcamp thing can get a bit confusing. Until recently I had a 2008 MacPro, which all the blurb said could Bootcamp Windows 7. Unfortunately I was running MacOS 10.9 which had Bootcamp 5... which didn't support the creaky MacPro. So after a lot of reading/research/trial/error I gave up.

      All that aside I've got Parallels to run various Win and Linux in case I ever need to dabble with something. Whilst it was possible to (just about) play Elite Dangerous in Parallels it did crash quite a bit!

  10. Alan Denman

    Horse and Cart stuff reigns supreme

    Here the cart came before the horse.

    You help my bottom line Apple and I'll help your bottom line Microsoft.

  11. yossarianuk

    Meanwhile in the Linux world (rEFInd) as usual you get choice !

    More reason to stick with Linux.

    Choice of what OS's you can boot with rEFInd (similar to boot camp but the user can actually control it), choice of desktops, choice of distros.

    I could never imagine running Windows where I was forced to use 1 desktop, that's 'communism' eh Mr Ballmer ?

    1. Neil Alexander

      Re: Meanwhile in the Linux world (rEFInd) as usual you get choice !

      Please, tell me more about this year being the "Year of the Linux Desktop". Again.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meanwhile in the Linux world (rEFInd) as usual you get choice !

        'Please, tell me more about this year being the "Year of the Linux Desktop". Again.'

        But this time I *feelz* it in the water. No, wait, just a blow-off in the bath

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Let's face it - some people (and IT Departments) can be lazy - they would still run Windows XP if they could get away with it and Windows 7 is 6 years old this year.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Lazy? Uh, no, this is called 'IT' not 'the Apple shop'

      'lazy'?

      If it's mature, supported by the vendor, has a feature set that meets needs and you've got apps / systems that work on it....that's not laziness, it's professional prudence.

      Alright, XP's not supported now but that's not the point I'm making. Yes, if XP were still supported then a huge number of businesses might continue to use it. Of course they would! They wouldn't arbitrarily change just because - OH NOES - it's more than six years old.

      Apple have done much to drive upgrade fetishism - and the feeling that things need replacing purely on the basis of version numbers and age.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Holmes

    the LOGAN'S RUN of the IT world...

    ...in which you are deemed positively ancient at an unreasonable age.

    Off to the Carousel with you, crispy operating system.

    Remember, fruity ones:

    No sanctuary.

  14. ScottME
    WTF?

    Why --

    would anyone want to buy a new Apple computer to run an old version of Windows?

  15. Peter Gathercole Silver badge
    Joke

    Well, it makes some sort of sense.

    You can no longer buy Windows 7, so of course when you get your new Mac, you can't get a brand new, shiny, shrink wrapped Windows 7 license anyway, can you.

    Of course, they've overlooked the fact that you may already own a transferable Windows 7 license, but nobody would put a 'used' version of Windows on their shiny shiny, would they. That's just so dirty.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anti-trust

    This is the sort of thing that makes me wonder about the relationship between Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft needs Apple to counter allegations of de facto monopoly. Apple needs Microsoft to differentiate itself and create its elitist image by way of contrast. I wonder if they ever talk to one another? Off the record, of course.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Anti-trust

      You think newer Macs not supporting Windows 7 via Boot Camp, while they still work fine via VM, is the result of an evil and illegal collusion between Apple and Microsoft? I think you need to come out of your basement and get some sun.

    2. JEDIDIAH
      Devil

      Re: Anti-trust

      This seems to be a collision of two different brands that have different approaches to legacy support. One lives and breathes legacy support while the other one despises it. One brand drop kicks their own customers in the balls when it comes to legacy support. Never mind people that use a rival OS.

      This is a beautiful collision of world views. No conscious illegal intent is required.

      This is just what happens when the ultimate legacy support brand meets the "ooh shiny shiny" brand.

  17. TonyJ Silver badge

    I bootcamp

    I've said it here before but for me, my late 2011 MBP is the best Windows laptop I've ever owned to date. For clarity though, I did max out the RAM at 16GB and put in first a 512MB and more recently a 1TB SSD + 1TB spinner in the superdrive bay.

    I tend to be quite hard on computers which includes lots of travelling and the usual bangs and knocks.

    I also occasionally like to play the odd game such as (for example) Left4Dead 2 which I can't imagine would work so well in a virtual machine.

    Whereas my friend, who has the same model, never boots to bootcamp - he's totally OSX and uses virtualisation for anything Windows.

    The things that do hack me off more about it though: it's all but impossible to install an OS from USB/USB attached DVD so my Win 7 - 8.1 upgrade had to be just that: an in place upgrade and because Apple hide the embedded Intel GPU from bootcamp it has much poorer battery life and runs MUCH hotter than when booted into OSX.

    Now having mostly extolled its virtues I cannot imagine buying a newer one...soldered RAM. Custom SSD (also soldered?), battery that's epoxied in...no thanks!

  18. Valarian

    The best Windows PC I've ever owned...

    ... is my 2013 Mac Pro. It ran OSX just long enough for Bootcamp to spin-up, and has been booting to Win8.1 ever since.

    Quad-core hyperthread CPUs, twin D500 graphics, 16GB RAM, totally silent, tiny footprint, giant T'bolt screen - yep, that's my Windows dev. and gaming rig sorted for the next 5 years tyvm.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The best Windows PC I've ever owned...

      "yep, that's my Windows dev. and gaming rig sorted for the next 5 years tyvm."

      Meh, you could have got yourself a proper hard-core Alienware rig for that money, which would be better for gaming out of the box will be easier to upgrade in the future.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The best Windows PC I've ever owned...

        Alienware?

        Seriously... no. They're not well made any more. Way better off going back to building your own.

  19. eobiont

    The drivers come from Intel, not apple. Apple will qualify the drivers and might release some branded version of the driver, but it is Intel that writes the drivers - not Apple. There are a bunch of models from Dell, ASUS etc running on these new Y series of Intel M chips and none of them support Windows 7. There are no Windows 7 drivers for the Dell Venue 11 HD (new 3940 model with Intel M 5Y10 chip) for instance which is similar hardware (guts-wise) to this macbook.

    So even putting Windows on the device, without bootcamp, will be a struggle - because there are no windows 8 drivers for this chipset.

    Windows 7 x64 can run on EFI, 32bit Windows 7 cannot. Apple's implementation of EFI is non-standard and is not designed with easy boot-ability of Windows OS in mind.

  20. Gis Bun

    Saving money

    Just another way for Apple to save money. Toss out support for Windows 7 - the most popular OS - and they are left to support Windows 8.1 [since I'm sure they won't actually support Windows 10 until the retail release (not the RTM date)].

    Really dumb for Apple since some Apple buyers will hold off on buying a new model because they do need Boot Camp with Windows 7, unless they want to use a third party product.

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