UK spaceport, phase two: Now where do we PUT the bleeding thing? The UK's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has narrowed its shortlist of potential locations for Europe's first spaceport, which would provide a UK base for future commercial space flights and satellite launches. In response to a three-month consultation on the plans, the UK government said that it had received "widespread …
North coast of Scotland would work for conventional launches to polar orbits, with only Svalbard in the way. Other inclinations favour equatorial, so Diego Garcia BIOT would be a candidate. Although I suppose there must be a reason that the UK chose Woomera and not BIOT for its last and only previous orbital launch.
If we don't actually know what form the orbital space planes of the future will take, or has Aland Bond managed to make more progress than we know?
Failed birds and spent stages from Canaveral or Kourou tend to come down in mid-Atlantic, failed launches from the UK?
Somewhere in Eastern France maybe, around Strasbourg?
Hmm, suddenly I can maybe see why the Govt wanted to include the more southerly locations as an option...
ailed launches from the UK?
Depending on the location - Central and south Eastern Europe and parts of Middle East or thereabouts. Out of all possible Eu locations Britain is one of the most useless.
There are reason you know why Russians are building their new facility all the way on the Pacific Ocean coast.
So if there is to be another (besides Kuru) Eu facility, Azores are probably the best location - lots of sea folllowed by Sahara desert Eastwards from there. If the facility is to be "100% British", then Ascencion island is the best choice. It has the right size of runway too and complies will all other criteria.
Chris Miller wrote:
The other requirement is a good deal of unoccupied area to the west of the site.
To the east, so that you get a boost from the rotation of the earth. Unless you want a hazardous retrograde orbit, with things coming at you head on at up to 36,000 miles per hour. Only the Isreali's have had to do that so far due to unfriendly nations to the east, which might construe a launch over their territories as an attack.
I dunno why we'd need runways. Everyone knows that British rockets will launch from a rocket sled riding on rails (possibly using maglev, but that was never explained in the show).
And with their usual impeccable timing, they just sold the East Coast mainline back to private hands. That would have been perfect, nice long run-up and all that. Although having to stop every few miles for leaves on the line, broken trains and freight might I guess put a crimp on things somewhat...
Surely you mean unoccupied land to the east not west? The atlantic is to the east of cape canaveral. As for a British overseas territory near the equator, Diego Garcia is pretty much taken over by the USAF and is a key ground site for the USA GPS system, however Ascension Island is closer (Atlantic) and is a similar distance south of the equator, 7°56', and it has the perfect name.
So, what, Lizard Point then?
I dunno why we'd need runways. Everyone knows that British rockets will launch from a rocket sled riding on rails (possibly using maglev, but that was never explained in the show).
Can't wait to be issued with my flying motor scooter.
"Everyone knows that British rockets will launch from a rocket sled riding on rails"
I never really understood why they landed the main craft each time they returned to Space City when for most of their extra-terrestrial visits they used Junior and left the rest in orbit.
"I never really understood why they landed the main craft each time they returned to Space City when for most of their extra-terrestrial visits they used Junior and left the rest in orbit."
There are only two seats in Junior. Professor Matthew Matic needs to get out and stretch his legs too, you know, and the Lazoon needs to be let out for a crap sometime.
Islands are a terrible place to put your... well anything big that requires frequent large imports. There's a reason we built the Cape Canaveral space port in Florida and not in Hawai'i. To build the space port in Hawai'i, first we'd have to ship in ALL the building materials. Then, we'd have to ship every last piece of the rocket/shuttle to the island. Sending it by ship isn't too much more expensive than the rail we currently use, but it's a lot slower. Sending it by plane is fast, but expensive.
You really want your space port on the same piece of land as all your manufacturing facilities.
We (the UK) don't have any manufacturing facilities for large rockets - because we don't build large rockets. Or small rockets. Or any rockets.
Moreover, Arianespace don't build their rockets in French Guiana. They manage to ship stuff across an ocean. Compared to the complexity of funding, designing, building and launching a meaningfully-sized launch vehicle, moving the bits around is a minor logistical challenge.
Ascension Island is potentially very attractive. Politically it's not going to happen though, because at the end of the day this whole project isn't about serious space, it's about space tourism.
"Moreover, Arianespace don't build their rockets in French Guiana. They manage to ship stuff across an ocean."
It's a _lot_ easier to move stuff to a launch site via sea than rail. No pesky tunnels limiting diameter for starters. The current USA setup is all about Pork Barrels, not practicality.
In the 1960s a lot of seriously large stuff was shipped to Canaveral by barge.
I seem to recall Peter F Hamilton having floating runways anchored offshore in the Atlantic which had spaceflight capability. That would seem logical enough - and it means you can launch in any direction by just turning the ship around or sailing it south for equatorial launches.
Pykrete might be a plausible base, or just build it like a scaled up oil platform out of a number of segments.
Since they seem to be thinking about spaceplanes, it wouldn't have a 'traditional' first stage drop. The west coast and northern tip locations might have been chosen to ensure that a failed launch landed in the Atlantic rather that mainland Europe or Scandinavia. I assume they'll aim it to avoid overflying Ireland.
Not wanting to put a dampener on this, but shouldn't we have a space vehicle before we build a spaceport? But the UK government has also managed to build aircraft carriers without aircraft, so maybe it's just being consistent.
I'm guessing that the target is a facility for a Skylon, or similar, vehicle rather than a rocket launching facility, since it makes much more sense to launch rockets from nearer the equator.
But why not invest in actual space vehicles first and get them launched from an appropriate existing facility? This just seems like a bit of a diversion from a country who's government hasn't even participated in any manned space program; I guess landowners prefer land to technology.
For what it's worth, Newquay gets my vote; at least you can enjoy the beach whilst waiting for a launch.
Not wanting to put a dampener on this, but shouldn't we have a space vehicle before we build a spaceport?
Come on, this is the mob whose upcoming new aircraft carriers are due to be finished and in service at least a couple of years before the aircraft that they're supposed to be carrying will become available.
So having the port before something to launch from it is almost par for the course...
Prestwick also has a beach as, I'm sure do most of the other candidates.
Not missing anything. Check out cargo cults. Build space port, space planes will come! Let Norman Foster design it and they won't be able to afford the landing fees though. Let Heathrow Epxress run the connection service and nobody but Branson will be able to afford to get to the space port.
I thought Guyana was a former British colony, rather like Belize?
And from Belize you might run into problems if a northern launch went wrong. Most of the Yucutan is barely inhabited low-canopy rain forest, but there are some good-sized cities like Merida that you wouldn't want to drop shrapnel on.
Like delivering the payloads and support equipment to the site.
Near term you're talking about sounding rockets, allowing UK universities to do what German and other Continental universities can do and give their students hands on experience of sending a paylod to space. Sounding rockets could let students do a launch as an end-of-course project.
The other near term option is for Virgin Galactics sub orbital space ride, as possibly XCOR's Lynx.
REL's Skylon is the big one of course.
"Near term you're talking about sounding rockets, allowing UK universities to do what German and other Continental universities can do"
My employer (a uk university) has been launching sounding rockets since 1964. It still happens but it isn't glamorous (or for the most part, terribly useful anymore), so noone pays attention.
North West. North West Wales, that is. Anyone who's been to Hollyhead knows that once there, all you want to do is leave. There's already the ferry port, I reckon the option of escaping into space would prove popular given that it's sunnier, warmer and less fucking miserable than Anglesey.
Also, you could drop the spent casings on Birmingham which is a bonus.
How about Wick Airport?
Could extend the main runway, with the bonus of flattening Ackergill in the process. And the secondary runway could just be extended right up to the coast, to give the pilots something to concentrate the mind on take off and landing.
If bits fall off, just make sure they're guided to Pultneytown, no-one will mind that, the place is a shithole as it is.
I'll take my million pound consultation fee in £20 notes, thanks.
Steven R
Cornwall is on the list (Gool Peran Lowen!) Happy St Pirrans day to any other Cornishmen on here today. But of course no UK Government ever spends any money west of Bristol so it won't be based in the Duchy. Although it would be quite funny if it were to be, something as cutting edge and modern and the juxtaposition of our Victorian era rail system we have down here. I expect by the time its built (if it ever is) we'll still be running HST's to the far SW
Well, not strictly true.
You've got Plymouth Dockyards, RNAS Yeovilton, and the UK Hydrographic Office which are directly MOD or MOD trading funds, so west of Bristol is too broad.
But Cornwall? Isn't that a different country! It certainly feels like it sometimes. I mean, for some time last year, there was not even a mainline railway running to it!
sort of my point! And Plymouth is often called a northern city on the south coast (apart form it doesn't attract the government money that northern cities do) a city of 260,000 no airport, no motorway, and pisses poores rail connection.
Plymouth had an airport. It just didn't have passengers wanting to use it.
Unfortunately, the market will ultimately dictate whether an airport is viable, and it looks like Plymouth wasn't.
I'm not sure whether Newquay is viable, either.
"Well, not strictly true.
You've got Plymouth Dockyards, RNAS Yeovilton, and the UK Hydrographic Office which are directly MOD or MOD trading funds, so west of Bristol is too broad."
And the Met Office in Exeter.
But yes, the M5 runs out at Exeter. Cornwall is basically just pasties (nom) and traffic jams (in summer).
Well there are two existing facilities, which are RAF Spadeadam in Cumbria or RAF Benbecula in Scotland, one was used for Blue Streak and the other for Trident.
But they're probably a bit too far away from London to be considered - after all, a spaceport is a must have feature, and a status symbol, you don't want to leave it with the bloody Northeners...
Does Boris the unfeasably useless Johnson know about this?
The (insert lastest 'friend of Boris' here) Spaceport with a feking 'Mayor of London' poster all over it as of he actually had anything to do with it.
He would promise it will all be privately funded and 'somehow' need huge wedges of public funds to complete and run it.
Though the temptation to strap him to a launch vehicle would be hard to resist.
Actually it will be the second.
Europe's first spaceport (construction started 1960) launches over half of payloads already. It's also on an East coast (in case launch aborts) and near Equator (saves fuel).
You don't want to be under the immediate launch path.
It's not even the UK's first, the Australians are re-furbishing Woomera,
It's not even the first site IN Europe (though none are used any more as the European Space Port is better).
It might be the first spaceport in the UK. But that actually makes little sense. Kenya would be cheaper. There even is some sort of disused base there already. Kenya or South America would be cheaper for launches than in Great Britain,
The fact they're considering Newquay makes it clear enough that this "spaceport" is no such thing, but rather just a convenient base for rich boys to take their suborbital joyrides from. The only conceivable launch direction is to the west to avoid populated areas, which, combined with being more than 50° north, would from energy considerations alone make it one the worst locations anywhere for launching anything into space.
Because the overshoot is basically.. well it is.. Ramsgate. That's probably why to both of the above. You'd have to pick up the runway and drop it down 300 meters west before it starts making any sense for anything aviation related.
Even if there weren't good safety reasons people living there probably wouldn't be pleased about either spaceplanes or 747's taking off/landing there en masse and we'd be all about the judicial reviews for 20 years and further away from where runways are needed. And we'd still need a hub airport with > 4 runways.
Have a couple of ideas
1. Heathrow,so they can get that new runway they want, close to Nodnol, "easy" transport links etc. (usually Nodnol-centric thinking)
2. RAF Kinloss, between Aberdeen and Inverness- back of beyond (safe), next to coast with big fecking runway sitting there doing nothing- but hard to get there- horse and cart for two hours from Aberdeen -we've heard of those new fangled trains, might get them or a dual carriageway out of this.
The way this looks, the spaceport will be primarily for long haul passenger and a little bit of cargo. So putting it anywhere outside the UK or not in close reach of Eurostar makes it a bit pointless.
Can't see its primary purpose being satellite launches which are best served nearer the equator and don't need quick and easy access from London to the launch site.
Got to admit, having done the 24 hour flight to Aus in cattle class, a few hours in low orbit do appeal :)
Great idea - the UK has world-class expertise on space launch systems.
Oh no, hang on, that was fifty years ago before they cancelled the lot just as it was ready, and dismantled all the teams with their accumulated experience and expertise. And then stonewalled every attempt to revive them.
Why would anyone want to come to the UK to do space launches?
"Oh no, hang on, that was fifty years ago before they cancelled the lot just as it was ready, and dismantled all the teams with their accumulated experience and expertise. And then stonewalled every attempt to revive them."
Black Arrow managed to launch a single small satellite at roughly the same time that NASA were firing 3000 ton Saturn 5 missions and driving golf buggies on the moon. They were just too under-invested and slow. The cash had all gone to Concorde.
In fact much of the UK tech (which had begun as nuclear missile development) went to Europe as a first stage and seeded the eventual development of Arianne.
UK is still very good at space craft though, just lost the launcher tech.
The US BX-70 test aircraft that the Concorde was designed on, was being tested to be a sub orbital bomber when it was canceled.
The engines were modified so they could go self contained and use proprietary oxidizers instead of air The fuel was still JP4 but they tried several types of oxidizer, including Uranium Pentoxide. Some of that testing was done by Bell Aerospace in a facility in Ransomville, NY USA. That may have given some creedence to the rumors about contrails being bad for your health.
If this design had all been finalized and built, the USAF could have had a plane that could have taken off from fairly conventional airports that could have operated just like the Concorde except be capable of space flight. I seem to remember there was a Pan AM version shown in 2001 A Space Odessey.
"There are good reasons to doubt that the real operational spaceports of the future will involve runways or spaceplanes. No orbit-capable, commercially significant runway spacecraft seem likely to appear on anything like the government's timeline. El Reg explores the subject in more depth here."
I must admit, I'd assumed any space-port would be predicated on Skylon or similar.
But not too close to the posh houses. They want to see it, not have their gin & tonic disturbed by it.
Where is *should* go is somewhere a bit more North to help stimulate the economy up there, but when has Westminster given two shits about anything outside of the Home Counties?
Of course, not in the UK but nearer the equator in the first damned place would be even better!
The Americans are leaving RAF Mildenhall which has good road links, long runway, was a Shuttle Abort site and is in the East of the UK, but is a tad close to Lakenheath.
RAF Coltishall is probably going cheap, but has been closed for a long time, only connected with awful roads and the Category 3 prison might not convey the impression of a bright new future the British Government is aiming for.
How about the soon to be closed Cawdor barracks... formerly USAF Brawdy.... prior to that RNAS Brawdy.
Sparsely populated area, coastal county on the west coast, the area could do with the boost and the site has plenty of open space , runway facilities and areas for support buildings.
Britain has long been engaged in the production of satellites, but London believed that its own spaceport would significantly strengthen the position of the United Kingdom in the space industry. Their affairs are in a good position, so there are companies producing not only satellites but also rockets for cargo delivery and so on. For today, there are launch vehicles like<a href="https://www.skyrora.com/skylark-l"> Skylark L rocket </a> which can be used for microgravity experiments at a lower cost than an orbital vehicle while taking advantage of Skyrora’s environmentally conscious fuel combination.
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