Visa: One million bonks a month for Europeans from next year

There is a quote attributed to Visa International that NFC has had “more pilots than the RAF”. Well, that may or may not be true, but what's beyond doubt right now – according to Jeremy Nicholds, Executive Director, Mobile, Visa Europe – is that people will soon be using mobile phones to tap to pay. And he’s prepared to put a …

[TRT]

Some of us don't want...

pay by bonk cards.

For example, people who work on the gateline of the underground, who are constantly leaning over the readers to open the gates and could press their wallet on the reader.

Or anyone with half a brain who realises what a massive opportunity for unchallenged crookery they are.

[regadpellagru]

Re: Some of us don't want...

Well, yes, the service case is very unclear.

pros: contactless, no password, faster

cons: can of security exploits if not done well (and contactless techno opens quite a few)

So far, I failed to see how the cons wins ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Some of us don't want...

pros: contactless, no password, faster

cons: can of security exploits if not done well (and contactless techno opens quite a few)

So far, I failed to see how the cons wins ..

Well yes, if "no passwords" doesn't ring any alarm bells for you, please go ahead. For me personally, it is one of the biggest red flags of the whole scam scheme.

[Lee D]

Re: Some of us don't want...

I invested in some RFID/NFC-blocking sleeves for my cards. They were literally pence on Amazon. You can stick them basically inside an NFC coil and nothing happens. It's not hard to stop such instances.

That said, I have them because I hate RFID/NFC etc. for exactly these kinds of reasons.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Some of us don't want...

Even since I first ended up with a contactless card, I've been thinking of constructing a new wallet which contains an RFID-proof sleeve in which I can carry these cards ... but crucially a second sleeve which faces the outside and does not block RFID.

This way I can carry my RFID-enabled debit cards inside the wallet without risk of accidental payments being taken from them, and store my Oyster card on the unprotected one allowing me to 'touch in' with the wallet at the train station without having to fumble about extracting that specific card and holding everyone up.

Alas a quick good reveals that many before me have no only had the same idea but have managed to take the idea through to manufacturing ...

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=rfid-proof+wallet

[eSeM]

The biggest problem with NFC payments .... is trying to get a service to use it with a phone.

After 2 years I managed to get Cash On Tap from EE but I am still restricted on which phones I can use with it.

:-(

[deive]

Yeah, THIS is why no-one is using phones for pay-by-bonk.

All involved have been to busy arguing how they deserve to be the ones skimming off of every transaction.

0.15 is better than the 0.8 or more for credit card payments - but it is still too high! (Also the article only says that is Apples fee - is more paid on top of that?)

[Simon Rockman]

Yes, typically the merchant pays around three percent. Less by volume, but it's split between lots of people in the chain. Historically they have been loath to include the handset manufacturer or operator in the cosy club, citing the attractiveness of the service as a reason why consumers would want an NFC phone and so there would be consumer pull. Jeremy and I had to agree to disagree as to how much people prefer cash or cards.

[Cuddles]

"The biggest problem with NFC payments .... is trying to get a service to use it with a phone."

Indeed. My last two phones have had NFC going back around 4 years, but neither my bank or my mobile network will actually allow me a way to use it. Hell, I've had a contactless credit card for a similar length of time, and even my local Tesco won't let me use it. Of course NFC use is insignificant when every point in the chain of banks, networks and shops all refuse to let us actually use it.

[Britt Johnston]

Data to US companies is suspect and in the wrong hands

Wikipedia says: Visa Inc. (/ˈviːzə/ or /ˈviːsə/) is an American multinational financial services corporation headquartered in Foster City, California, United States.[citation needed]. Visa Europe is a separate membership entity that is an exclusive licensee of Visa Inc.'s trademarks and technology in the European region, issuing cards such as Visa Debit and Visa Credit.

Perhaps we could persuade the EU to insist on splitting-off the Euro business domain from fiveeyes supporter nations.

Such a Eurobonk might even become a replacement for clearing banks, e.g. as a public service run by the ECB.

[Britt Johnston]

Eurobanque

Eurobonk is spelled Eurobanque, sorry...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Data to US companies is suspect and in the wrong hands

Perhaps we could persuade the EU to insist on splitting-off the Euro business domain from fiveeyes supporter nations.

Such a Eurobonk might even become a replacement for clearing banks, e.g. as a public service run by the ECB.

Two answers here.

1 - this separation from 5 eyes is exactly why the Swiss run their own national clearing centre

2 - the ECB is not going to give the impression of competing with national banks in how to get hold of our money quickest. Politically far too dangerous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Data to US companies is suspect and in the wrong hands

Possibly true about the ECB but they might mandate that a new inter-bank system is created to do it. After all they stopped banks charging for withdrawing Euros in other Eurozone countries.

[Britt Johnston]

Re: Data to US companies is suspect and in the wrong hands

1- <this separation from 5 eyes is exactly why the Swiss run their own national clearing centre.>

I agree, it is Europe and especially the Eurozone that has risks and problems.

2 - <the ECB is not going to give the impression of competing with national banks in how to get hold of our money quickest. Politically far too dangerous.>

Good point. I don't think the ECB has to run it, more that it could make sense to facilitate such a program. Maybe they could channel the job to a competent outsider, which might even be Visa. But there is a question in the background, whether a few top banks are essential for clearing transactions, and should be well rewarded for the drudgery, or whether a shared secure automated system is sufficient, or better, e.g. for the chosen topic of shared electronic micropayments.

[Anonymous Coward]

Authorised Payments

It baffles me why the worlds largest payments processor is pushing to make payments without a customer authorisation step ubiquitous.

The only reason I can see is that they are aiming to increase volume of payments, and therefore $PROFIT$ and shareholder returns.

However as someone who has had their card ripped off in the past, I am dead against contactless transactions which don't involve the authorisation step of the customer using their pin number. It riles me actually, when bartenders in pubs have a habit of 'tapping' my card before I have a chance to enter my pin number - it feels like the digital equivalent of the money having been rudely snatched out of my hand before I hand it over.

Also I've had London Underground steal money from my wrong account more than once because I accidentally got my wallet too close to the card reader.

When my first replacement debit card turned up with a contactless function, I was able to send it back and request ${BIGBANK} to issue me a normal chip and pin one.

However when my other ${SMALLERBANK} did likewise they said they had no way to issue me a non-contactless card. I'm now stuck with it ... and this is the card which volunteered my money to London Underground without my approval.

Questions I have about enabling contactless payments via Mobile Phone :

- How does one access their money if they get caught out with their battery going flat?

- How does one stop scumbags spending their money after theft of the phone?

[ravenviz]

Re: Authorised Payments

Edmund: Well, yes, I do rather laugh in the face of Tfl, bonking the reader of barrier

Sir Walter: You'd never dare use pay-by-bonk. Why, 'round Euston way, the thieves steal so much all your money's gone!

Edmund: So, some sort of passcode is probably in order.

[Lee D]

Re: Authorised Payments

- How does one access their money if they get caught out with their battery going flat?

RFID coils are self-powered by the RFID reader. Moving them towards the reader moves them through a generated magnetic field which induces a current in a coil in the card / fob / battery (in Samsung RFID-capable phones, for instance). That powers them up enough to send and receive radio messages to the reader for a fraction of a second. Same way that Oyster cards etc. work, you don't have to change the battery in your Oyster card, and your phone battery plays no part in powering the RFID/NFC up (Samsung embed them in the battery, but I'm pretty sure they work even when the battery is dead).

- How does one stop scumbags spending their money after theft of the phone?

Pay-by-bonk has a limit on it (£30 or so?). And you are never liable for any card charges that you didn't personally authorise (you may have to argue and send bits of paper back and forth, but that's the truth of it).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Authorised Payments

"RFID coils are self-powered by the RFID reader."

Great, so scumbags can spend your money even with the phone locked or switched off. They can then sell the phone itself for additional $PROFIT$ once the RFID is blocked.

"Pay-by-bonk has a limit on it (£30 or so?)"

That doesn't stop it being used numerous times, and £30 is a lot for most people.

"And you are never liable for any card charges that you didn't personally authorise"

The point is that the money is initially taken from your account whether you like it or not. Several hits at £20 can rack up £100-200 quite rapidly, which is enough to put many people in serious financial difficulty. This can easily happen in the time it takes to cancel a compromised card/RFID, and it can take a week or more to get the money credited back to your account.

When my card got ripped off, the scumbags went on a spending spree - and it was mostly small amounts they were paying. They know the tap will be turned off after a short time, and they make the most of it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Authorised Payments

Pay-by-bonk has a limit on it (£30 or so?)

I find it interesting that people don't consider this particular a massive hint that not all is well with wireless payments. If card providers willingly and in advance of issue restrict their own ability to get you into debt (which is where they make the real money), you KNOW something is up.

And you are never liable for any card charges that you didn't personally authorise (you may have to argue and send bits of paper back and forth, but that's the truth of it).

Not quite AFAIK. Since the bait & switch from signatures to Chip & PIN, your contract deems you liable unless you prove otherwise, and the arbitrar of that is the issuer. Before the PIN idea, the bank was liable if the signature wasn't yours, so in the case of a dispute you started from a legally much stronger position. That they refund you reasonably well is because fraud is not a huge percentage of turnover, but this may change if wireless paying actually takes off and the fraud percentage increases.

The problem with wireless paying is both the small amounts (the numbers you overlook because they are probably shopping) and the fact that you WERE there because that's where they surreptitiously scanned and used your card (unlike with credit card theft, where you often end up with purchases in a different location to where you provably were).

My card provider has tried twice to inflict this on me, after which I changed provider. I'm not going to touch wireless payments.

[DrXym]

Hardly surprising

Many modern cards have contactless payment chips anyway so what's the point?

You wave the card and the payment happens. Conversely you wave the phone and F-all happens. So you turn the phone on, unlock it, swipe around a bit looking for the payment app, discover you've lost connectivity with the payment service and have been logged off, screw around enabling it, enter your login again etc. etc.

I would find it more useful if I could wave the card against a phone to get a balance statement or similar and use the card to pay when I'm in a queue.

[Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face]

Just got a contactless debit card from Halifax. Fortunately, they offer an opt-out. Not interested in them from a security, privacy or convenience point of view. (A little bit of inconvenience is no bad thing when it comes to spending money).