back to article Developers, developers, developers! But WILL they support Windows 10?

Microsoft has revealed more of its plans for Windows 10, with full release expected towards the end of 2015. The press event focused on eye-catching features like HoloLens, a virtual reality and augmented reality headset, but what really counts is this: will Windows 10 attract developers back to the Windows platform? Windows …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The Windows Platform?

    Developing software for Windows? That's a blast from the bast!

    We're all developing for the open web platform, accessible by any device. Keep up Microsoft!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Meh

      Re: The Windows Platform?

      Ah so wrapping an app around a responsive web pages are we?

      That's all a hell of a lot of these so called "apps" are.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Windows Platform?

        Nope. Web apps - you use a web browser to access it. Why restrict yourself to <10% of the clients, when you can reach them all?

        And, by the way, wrapping an app around a web page (with an internal "server") is a legitimate solution for developing a cross-platform app. The general theme these days is to make your apps cross-platform. We've been burnt so many times by restricting ourselves to a single platform.

    2. RyokuMas Silver badge
      FAIL

      Re: The Windows Platform?

      Really? I'm developing cross-platform apps myself - that looks like best bet...

      Mobile web? Keep up, AC!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Windows Platform?

        Apart from the location of the "server", what's the difference?

        Exactly.

        All my apps use an embedded browser as the UI framework. No different to traditional web apps, except you have more access to the device. And thanks to Dart, it's a lot less frustrating now.

      2. thames

        Re: The Windows Platform?

        @RyokuMas - "Really? I'm developing cross-platform apps myself - that looks like best bet..."

        So to prove your point you refer to an article which says Flurry's numbers were derived from multiple incompatible sources and so are quite possibly complete rubbish? You might possibly be right, but that article doesn't support your point.

        That's not even addressing the issue that Flurry was just counting number of hours spent using an app as a mark of its success. If it took hours to find a bus route using a native app and seconds to find it using a web browser, then Flurry would mark the native app as being superior. I suspect that most users would however draw a different conclusion. All Flurry is really measuring is that games tend to be written in native code, and people spend hours playing games while they expect non-entertainment apps (where a lot of web apps are used) to quickly and efficiently accomplish a set task.

        What methods work best depends on the application and the target market. If you've got to turn out a basic utility app for a client and it needs to work on all platforms, and you have a finite budget and delivery schedule (like most of the real world outside of Silicon Valley does) then the open web looks very attractive.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The Windows Platform?

      Why on earth did you bother with the banality that all apps should be web apps. Do you think that every developer who develops a non-web apps has never heard of the web, has never considered it as an option, and then not worked out that for whatever constraint or reason that they have that they need a executable application. Desktop apps have a function and purpose at points, as do web apps, as do web services, as does a sql job. You Muppet.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The Windows Platform?

        Desktop apps have a function and purpose at points

        Yes, without a doubt! I'm not developing on a website using a tablet.

        But if you're developing for consumers, then cross-platform is the way to go. The browser is the best cross-platform UI you'll get.

    4. Christian Berger

      They don't know better

      There is a group of people who only grew up on MS-DOS and Windows. They believe that the problems they face on their systems are intrinsic to all computers. They believe that distributing software in binary form is a good thing, often claiming that if they would give out the source code, everybody could just copy it... as if that couldn't also happen with the binary code.

      In a way it's similar to the "Facebook"-Crowd. Those are the people who believe that the Internet solely consists of Facebook and other large companies. For them it makes sense to host your website "in the cloud" as they think it's normal that a server cannot easily saturate a gigabit connection with web traffic. They think tracking their users is OK and even outsource that to companies like Google or Adobe. Those people believe that the main problem with the Internet is that there is no payment infrastructure.

      Those crowds may seem weird and appalling to us, but they do exist.

  2. WP7Mango

    Gauging developer support

    Last year, Build 2014 took over 24 hours to sell out. This year, Build 2015 sold out in 45 minutes! That answers your question and says it all.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Gauging developer support

      Sure, but there were only 16 tickets available for Build 2015. Even Bill Gates refused to go.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Gauging developer support

      Build isn't really attended to by real developers - mostly news reporters, people who think they're news reporters, fanboys, and those who are into group masturbation.

      Remember all the bullshit announcements from 2014? Where are they now.. we're still developing just like we did 3 years ago. Windows/Office on a tablet/phones, cotana, etc. that they're still struggling to peddle. The biggest announcement was the return of the (drum-roll...) Start Menu! (fanfare + gasp) - but only available next year, and you'll need to upgrade/replace the whole OS for that one!

      1. WP7Mango

        Re: Gauging developer support

        That would explain why Google and Apple developer conferences are full of wankers!

        Thanks for clearing that up.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Gauging developer support

          I wouldn't know, or care. The branding mark on my arse is the Windows logo.

          1. WP7Mango

            Re: Gauging developer support

            I'll be developing for Windows 10. I'm particularly interested in the new Holographic APIs.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Gauging developer support

              "I'll be developing for Windows 10."

              Don't let Richard Dawkins hear you. He has strong views on these sorts of belief systems.

  3. SeanEllis
    Alert

    UI confusion

    I'm worried that a universal OS like Windows 10, which is used across multiple platforms and devices, will lead to a "lowest-common-denominator" UI experience.

    This is already with us with the desktop version of Skype 7.0, which is being written with (so they say) a universal design language based on Windows 10. The changes have led to literally thousands of messages on the community forum, pointing out that it removes features present in earlier Skype versions, hides commonly-used operations, and has a low information density on the screen to accommodate mobile devices. There are virtually no meaningful customization options - even for things as basic as color selection for accessibility.

    The interface is the One True Way, immutable - regardless of platform, input device, screen resolution, use case, or visual impairment.

    If the same thinking happens with other apps, then they will be in for a very bumpy ride.

    1. Zog_but_not_the_first
      Pint

      Re: UI confusion

      Upvote for this. Still, with everything else going the same way (ref. rat shit) it was inevitable I suppose.

      It's early, I know, but it's Friday too >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  4. dogged

    we're already developing for Windows 10

    Now, we're only a tiny precision engineering company but we're writing for Win10 and IoT for our next product which is all about fine granular control of production lines in the big pharmaceutical factories. As you can imagine, the instrumentation needs to be very, very precise and the data feedback constant in order to get past the FDA.

    Admittedly, the front-end of our system is currently WPF but the plan is to go Universal with the launch version and the architecture is in place to support this (loose coupling, disconnected front end, disconnected data store, async model used throughout...)

    It should run across workstations, tablets, embedded systems and headless IoT instruments.

    So.... some of us are already on board.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

      And you are using windows to control production in the pharmaceutical industry - I just hope I, and others, don't have to use those products. I also assume the computers are connected to the internet in some way therefore you are asking for trouble in a big way.

      1. dogged
        Mushroom

        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

        No, they are on an internal network.

        You should probably be aware that this is an upgrade to an existing system. It's actually the sixth upgrade since the original version 1.0 product which ran on Win2K workstations and Windows 98 Embedded.

        You almost certainly depend on the products it has monitored and produced.

        You might want to kill yourself right now, in fact, just so that you don't have to live with the fact that Windows has been saving your life and easing your pain since 2001. Or maybe you should just grow the fuck up.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

          Windows has been saving your life and easing your pain since 2001

          It hasn't - it's caused nothing but grief for most of us.

          1. dogged

            Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

            > It hasn't - it's caused nothing but grief for most of us.

            I'm going to assume you're a superbeing that doesn't need antibiotics, analgesics or vaccines.

            Or a dickhead. An anonymous dickead, too scared to back up his sneering with a username.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              FAIL

              Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

              An anonymous dickead, too scared to back up his sneering with a username.

              It has nothing to do with fear. Please respect those of us who wish to post without tosspots who take themselves seriously and use our posting history against us - this site respects it, and so should you.

              1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                  you ignorant little shit

                  Well, that certainly does make you look intelligent. It must have took some practice on the playground to combine three words into an insult.

                  Nobody was whining about the OS, just committing to an unproven platform - and wondering what the deciding factor behind it was. I too develop for Windows, and I am on the fence of whether or not to continue with it.

                  1. dogged

                    Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                    Oh that's easy. Three VERY VERY LARGE pharmaceutical companies are already planning to switch over to it. Supporting Win10 was one of their requirements when this project hit the control-software stage.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                      So the only reason is it's required.

                      ok.

                      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

                        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                        "So the only reason is it's required."

                        Yup. Writing software to customer requirements. What an old-fashioned notion.

                      2. Tom 35

                        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                        It's the same doggy who was calling Metro the best UI ever.

                        1. dogged

                          Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                          @Tom 35 -

                          Hardly. But it's not appreciably worse than any other, just different. There is no learning curve, merely a familiarity curve. I find that some people get over the changes very quickly and some throw a tantrum and refuse to ever use anything different from what they said looked like an unusable Fisher Price toy 13 years ago...

                    2. thames

                      Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                      "Supporting Win10 was one of their requirements when this project hit the control-software stage."

                      Having designed, built, and programmed numerous control systems for industrial machinery, I have more than a few doubts about your view of where Windows 10 fits in. However, the bit about "loose coupling, disconnected front end, disconnected data store, async model used throughout..." sounds like a pretty bog standard industrial system design methodology though, at least for any that I've been involved in.

                      I'm not sure that what you've described can really be called a control system though. It sounds more like a monitoring system for storing batch production records for regulatory purposes. They keep track of what went into each batch, the production parameters used, and the resulting output lot numbers so they can do product recalls if necessary. These are pretty standard fare in the pharmaceutical business as well as certain others. The pharmaceutical business however tends to be exceptionally highly regulated, leading to a pretty narrow pool of companies which are willing to go through the mountains of paperwork required to certify a system. That in turn tends to mean the bar is set pretty low in terms of things like design for ease of use.

                      I've been involved in designing equipment to produce systems which your life has probably depended on at some point. It's no big deal, and the people involved are generally quite blase about it. There's a bit more paperwork intended to weed out the cowboys, but other than that it's not much different from anything else.

                      Now anything handling money, that's where people tend to get really picky about things.

                2. Szymon Kosecki

                  Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                  Just a little note on the side.

                  Most programmers I know, do not choose the os or programming language based on "it being the best for the job" but simply by what the criteria of what they are familiar and comfortable with.

                  Them being professionals does not mean that they are not biased by the 20+ years of MS lobbying of the educational institutions. They do pick an OS they know to program for, period.

                  1. dogged

                    Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

                    Some other systems created here - for some other industries - require use of linux embedded, so they code for linux embedded.

                    And MS lobbying educational institutions? Well... there Office Home & Student I suppose but that doesn't make many programmers. If anyone's lobbying these days, it seems to be mainly Apple.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

      "we're writing for Win10 and IoT for our next product"

      Surely you're bullshitting us. So you're already committing to a platform that isn't released, stabilised, proven or even gained a mentionable user base?

      I'm curious of why someone would do that (unless Windows is all you know and are unable to explore alternatives).

      "our system is currently WPF"

      Says it all, really. And you haven't learned from that?

      Been there, done that. Got the t-shirt, and then the nice redundancy package.

      1. dogged

        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

        > Surely you're bullshitting us. So you're already committing to a platform that isn't released, stabilised, proven or even gained a mentionable user base?

        We are committing to support that platform, yes. Our clients are in favour.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

        "So you're already committing to a platform that isn't released, stabilised, proven or even gained a mentionable user base?"

        It makes sense. His company's customers are looking at kit with an EoL in, say 2030.* W2K has EoL in 2020. 8.* has EoL when? Of course they're going to want something that has a long life in front of it.

        * Industrial kit has to run for a long time, that's why folk are finding it difficult to get away from XP and when I retired in 2006 my client had industrial printers still going strong which, as far as I could make out, had W95 embedded.

      3. dam666

        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

        one word: Skylake.

        Windows is on over one billion systems. They were forcing us to use the sucky Windows universal, no start menu junk, and they killed Silverlight when it was wonderful. How MSFT has failed with the phones -is- believable, given how brutal Google has been, with google voice not possible to work, youtube and mail almost, and stupid and dysfunctional large companies can be. but WPF is perfect for UI that works on different form factors. JS compared to C#, HTML, is for one size, it makes me want to die. you don't have to obfuscate it because its so hard to read. So, skylake , 3x less barely 2x smaller, and half the power, twice the speed. Finally a tablet can be as thin as something from Sammy or Apple. It takes time, but billions of dollars can win, even when Google is playing dirty, with the making stuff not work on Windows Phone. I think Google is so clever and competitive, windows has been just hammered., but.. do you want Android or Windows on a PC? hahahahahhahh.. shhh script kiddies. Old geysers suicide (over 40) rate will fall, if WinTell gets its Shizen back together.

    3. Tim99 Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

      @dogged

      I was recently discussing software interfaces with a large manufacturer of a range of very expensive precision scientific instruments. Traditionally they are using Windows PCs for this (a long time ago they used VAXen or PDP11s).

      They said that they were so annoyed with the uncertainty of Windows 7: 8; 8.1 and tablets that they were looking at a complete change of approach. One of the things that they are considering is to make each instrument with its own configurable internal web server. Its control parameters could be entered on its web pages by a PC, tablet, phone, terminal etc. There would be sufficient storage on each device that the data it had acquired could be transferred with a simple get after it had run.

    4. poopypants

      Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

      What kind of irresponsible idiot uses Windows as a foundation for safety critical software? That's criminal negligence, right there. If you don't get it,

      here's a simple primer.

      1. dam666

        Re: we're already developing for Windows 10

        I press the thing next to Cortana and tell them. What you are saying is kind of true. need to disconnect it from the internet. they are pushing it. I woke up to an update, my StartisBack was broken, etc. I told them I was running an neural net overnight and lost a zillion dollar demo, with a guy leaving for the other side of the globe, no second chances. I complain to cortana, she has made me sound like a wife beating domestic violent case... stupdi b@#$@. And with her snide like jokes. this sh@# is not funny im going to starve because i develop for MSFT and too invested with an 8 year codebase.

        However they have a billion + and you cant please everyone. I turned off the autoupdates for now. But i want them to change a ton of stuff. I expect a lot of churn. For a spaceship, it has to be a custom something and MSFT embedded solutions do exist I believe. https://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/windows-embedded.aspx

  5. Malcolm 1

    Multiple Windows

    Web apps, Universal apps, Store apps - while they clearly have some benefits, the massive sticking point for complex applications is the fact that they are restricted to a single window (I guess you can do multiple browser windows for web apps, but it's far from a seamless experience). Being able to spawn multiple viewports or panels is a massive boon for any complex application which doesn't revolve around editing a single image or document, it also makes it much easier to make full use of multiple monitors in a sensible way.

  6. RyokuMas Silver badge
    Mushroom

    Uh-oh...

    Microsoft, you have yet to be forgiven for dropping XNA.

    C# and Monogame had better be an option for developers in this new "Windows 10" world - I'll be damned if I'm going to be reduced to some drag-drop-script-kiddy Unity developer...

    1. Anonymous Bullard

      Re: Uh-oh...

      I'll be damned if I'm going to be reduced to some drag-drop-script-kiddy Unity developer

      Who remembers Klik & Play?

      1. WP7Mango

        Re: Uh-oh...

        "Who remembers Klik & Play?"

        Me! LOL

        For anyone who is only interested in the mechanics of a game, and doesn't care much for actual coding, I think applications such as Klik & Play (or whatever it's called now) work very well. For casual gaming where you want quick results, I really don't see the problem with it.

      2. theModge
        Thumb Up

        Re: Uh-oh...

        I loved that when I was a kid!

        It definitely gave me an interest in development

    2. poopypants

      Re: Uh-oh...

      @RyokuMas You'll be pleased to know that Unity continues to support coding in C#. You can even link in your own DLLs written in C++, if you want to limit yourself to Windows. Of course it doesn't have the same portability as XNA. It is far better than that, allowing you to target Windows Desktop, Windows Store, Windows Phone, Windows tablets, Android, iPhones, iPads, OSX, XBox and Playstation. Oh, and Blackberry too.

  7. Robert Grant Silver badge

    “WPF is not quite to the done state yet,”

    English version: "WPF isn't ready"

    Good grief. Paid to communicate, and produces a sentence with more misses than hits.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: “WPF is not quite to the done state yet,”

      I dipped my toes in WPF a few years back. It was good - but it was hard for me to commit to it when you looked at how fast the web (as an application platform) was gaining viability and popularity.

      WPF is in maintenance mode now, for "legacy" applications that are reasonably recent.

      I don't have anything against WPF itself, it just couldn't compete with the real world outside the Microsoft environment - stopping the investment was a difficult but shrewd move by Microsoft, but not telling their developers was a bit tasteless.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: “WPF is not quite to the done state yet,”

      "Paid to communicate, and produces a sentence with more misses than hits."

      It's a valuable skill. It can obfuscate bad news & make no news sound impressive.

  8. IJC
    Mushroom

    Real programmers ...

    The web script kiddies seem to forget that there a lot of software isn't targeted at a phone or a tablet but meets some industrial functional need.

    Whether it is Windows or Unix/Linux there are thousands of industrial applications that just work day in, day out. They just don't fit the social media meme that attracts attention today. Instead most of them do their job and make real money unlike most of the toy apps featured in the press.

    Any organization that writes software for use by business will be looking at Windows 10 and deciding where it fits for their software. Some will look to exploit it, others will add it as a supported platform and for some it will not be relevant, but no sensible development organization can afford to ignore it.

    1. the spectacularly refined chap

      Re: Real programmers ...

      The web script kiddies seem to forget that there a lot of software isn't targeted at a phone or a tablet but meets some industrial functional need.

      No surprise there. Too often it seems that there is a sizable contingent of 14 year olds with 15 years of commercial experience here.

      Whether it is Windows or Unix/Linux there are thousands of industrial applications that just work day in, day out. They just don't fit the social media meme that attracts attention today. Instead most of them do their job and make real money unlike most of the toy apps featured in the press.

      Exactly. When a product may be on the market for a decade or more and need support for another 15 years after that as a minimum you take a very different perspective on these things: we have little interest in building entirely new software for devices that haven't been on sale for the last five years. Long term stability of the underlying platform is far more important than the latest shiny user-visible toys.

      If you want to support developers to support your platform then support them. Look at the Unix world - if you understood the 1992 version of POSIX you'll need a bit of updating by now for e.g. threads or wide character support, but code written back then will still work with at worst minor fettling for the most part.

      This is precisely where Microsoft continue to get it hopelessly wrong - entire new frameworks and paradigms are introduced every three or four years, far too frequently to keep up if you are doing actual work as opposed to playing with the latest shiny. The old stuff is left to bitrot or has the new cruft tacked on, such as how MFC was infested with the .NET stuff.

      But at the end of the day, yes, of course we will have to consider Windows 10 at some point, whether that means the bare minimum to keep the old stuff working, a significant upgrade to the bare-bones Java software or simply saying, no, we're not going to cover that. A entirely new branch supporting all the fancy new features is probably the one option most likely to be quickly ruled out for pre-existing stuff, even if not for new stuff going forward.

      1. Anonymous Bullard

        Re: Real programmers ...

        entire new frameworks and paradigms are introduced every three or four years, far too frequently to keep up if you are doing actual work as opposed to playing with the latest shiny.

        Oh yes. My CV is littered with "game changing" next new things that Microsoft now look down their noses at as legacy. I've also worked on projects where prima donners rewrite parts just to make use of the brand new and unproven MS tech.

        I'm not saying their stuff is crap (or otherwise), it's just not stable enough to commit to long running projects or even your training allowance on. People are still stuck on XP because their stuff won't even run on a later version of the same OS!

        I'm an experienced developer of the Microsoft stack and my current re-train is away from the damn churn-mill.

    2. Mikel

      Re: Real programmers ...

      There is no reason not to separate the logic and data processing from the presentation through the standard protocols that make up the Web. The protocols and browsers are rich enough for your UI, and doing this makes your app more portable.

      As for this "Holographic UI" nonsense, it's been done. Does no one remember Microsoft's VRML? I seem to remember a file manager with a Doom UI back in the day. Hit the file with a shotgun to delete, or something like that.

  9. Stretch

    Hmm

    There was this Write Once Run Anywhere language... I've been using it for years... Very popular in the enterprise. Lots of work and lots of devs. Now what was it...

    Oh yes. Java.

    1. Tim99 Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Hmm

      There was this Write Once Run Anywhere language... I've been using it for years... Very popular in the enterprise. Lots of work and lots of devs. Now what was it...

      I think you meant C.

  10. MrColdWaterOfRealityMan

    Perhaps if Microsoft stops treating developers like dogshlt...

    Oh, where to begin. No automatic conversion from one technology to another (VB6 to VB.net, Winforms to anything...). Abominations like Powershell syntax, instead of the rational, courteous approach of extending VBScript or JScript. Documentation and code samples? Oh, download the entire Windows xx devkit to find them, because we all want to do that. Need to download anything else like code samples? Let's see how many times we can make you click and guess which obfuscated named item might be the correct thing...

    Frankly, Microsoft should just stop bothering. Developers are not an income stream. They never will be. Since Microsoft is *incapable* of paying attention to the human infrastructure that actually makes them money if it doesn't show up on a bean counter spreadsheet somewhere, they should just release some open source platform that works with all of it products and leave the rest to the developer community. Java-ize it.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      Re: Perhaps if Microsoft stops treating developers like dogshlt...

      "they should just release some open source platform that works with all of it products and leave the rest to the developer community. Java-ize it."

      Without wishing to dispute the possible merits of open-sourcing some platform, I don't think you are wise to describe that as "Java-izing". There's been this little court case recently about just how open Java actually is.

  11. Ken Hagan Gold badge

    Holograms? Really?

    I don't suppose this will have any effect, but can I just mention that "hologram" and "holographic" already have long-established meanings in the field of imagery and display and (here's the rub) ONE MORE FUCKING DIMENSION THAN YOUR HEAD-UP DISPLAY.

    The innumerate tosspots in Microsoft's marketing department may not care about this small detail, but I do. So, Microsoft, when you produce a working 3D display technology, you can call it holographic. Until, then, I suggest you stick to the established meanings of words.

    If you don't, we may decide to start calling your displays "wanky". Yes, I know the word "wank" already has an established meaning which doesn't accurately describe your new display technology, and our choice naturally leads on to an even more unfortunate nomenclature for the applications that use it, but it's OK to appropriate existing words because language evolves, right?

  12. Christian Berger

    Changing strategies to quickly

    I mean Microsoft always talked about the "next big thing", a technology which should revolutionize everything. Usually those turned out to be just a couple of half baked libraries implementing a fraction of what's advertised and even that fraction often doesn't work. And shortly after the project gets usable... the project will be axed in favour of "the next big thing".

    Now there are 2 groups of developers. Some are continuously keeping up with the latest fad, producing applications which, in their installation routine, install the last 20 years of external Windows packets.

    The others are just limiting themselves to Win32, they create statically linked applications, often even without any installation routines. You copy your binary and it'll just work.

    Now Microsoft made one mistake, they hinted stopping to support Win32. Windows RT doesn't support Win32 anymore, and so does Windows Phone. The operating systems they consider to be the future don't support Win32 any more. For both groups this means that their software won't run any more. And usually that even means they will have to completely re-implement their software. Now if you completely re-implement something you are likely to re-evaluate what platform you develop for.

    1. Anonymous Bullard

      Re: Changing strategies to quickly

      I was a win32 developer. It's become a mess of historical hacks but you can do almost anything with it that windows support. It must be a right arse ache to maintain and port to other architectures but millions of applications rely on it.

    2. dam666

      Re: Changing strategies to quickly

      exactly, thats why im screaming at them about Silverlight. Killing that when it was just getting mature enough to beat Flash. Now flash lives and SL is dead. SL is the route to app development in Windows phone.. took 3 weeks, to port onto the phone that noone uses, for a 12 man-year project. for Apple and or Android we aborted after 2 months.

      But, there is one reason I don't suicide. Skylake. it supports Win32.. if Sammy makes a thin OLED tablet running windows 10, i will buy it. I do think a phone that runs Java, old apps, is a pc in your pocket. Just need to wire a TV and keyboard. For travel,, a super portable keyboard and the hotel TV. or a projector thing. PC on a chip is real. Please are crying Skylake would support Windows XP, 8 , 7. But, if its twice as small, half power, 2x faster, ill take it. And if it runs old apps, that's good enough. Im furious the old Java science pages are broken or require me to do 1-2 minutes of white listing. There are dead peoples webpages, but they should work. JS and HTML suck sooooooo bad. OPENGL is ugly as my ballsack.. WPF/C# is real perty.. i'm not going to move to Unity, or web technologies as I almost did. I need the source code or I cant do anything special. Not having the Silverlight source is hard enough.. but Android could conceivably die as fast as it rose. Windows over 20 years .

      .I hate porting ,i hate #ifdef, and I don't like Unix because, i am an old pro, and MSFT took over about 20 years ago. I believe in the contract, interfaces. COM and build components, division of labor. I don't like branches and forks, opensource junk, unless they are for applications. Not on the OS. Android cannot be updated, http://www.androidcentral.com/why-you-ll-never-have-latest-version-android. My windows phone has been updated 4x. That's because they separate the logic from the ui, the OS from the apps. That means tough UI decisions, and MSFT got way too many wrong. But they are fixing it. if 20,000 people scream at you to fix something the same way, they might just give them what they want.

      Windows on the phone running liquid cooled Skylake is inevitable. I'm not going to use two OS if i don't have to, One has got to go, and its the candy named play one , not the work one...i can play on the work one.

  13. Siv

    Windows 10 Development

    I have been developing for Windows desktop since the original VB and still use VB.NET for writing database applications. I really don't like the metro app, sorry modern app, sorry Universal app look. It just seems too clumsy compared to a desktop application. I need rich controls, using Metro apps just seem childish by comparison. It feels like the whole World is dumbing down and we are all becoming children.

    Trying to do anything productive on a tablet just doesn't work. I feel when I am on my tablet or phone that I am using boxing gloves to tie a knot in fishing line. It really feels like we are going backwards.

    As a developer I am sick of the constant change for change's sake, I need Microsoft to settle down and keep their programming languages and design environments the same and to clearly state which programming language they are settling on and which screen design paradigm they are going to use.

    I find XAML and WPF as mind-bogglingly complicated compared to the simple drag and drop I am used to in Windows Forms. They need to make it as simple as the Windows forms UI and hide all the XAML nonsense in the background.

    I have seen too many things come and go that were going to be the next best thing eg Silverlight. I need to know that if I invest time in learning it that it will still be around in 10 years and still be usable.

    Consumption, yes you can do that on a tablet, as all you are doing is tapping to click something, or swiping to scroll something and that's about it, you can't hover a pointer over a button to see what it's tooltip says with your finger, click and drag is difficult and ham fisted if you want to grab multiple things.

    As long as we can keep desktop, keyboard and mouse for real work all is well in the world. It was very noticeable in the video you have elsewhere on your site Paul showing a guy demonstrating the touch version of Office that he doesn't actually enter any text in Word or Excel he just changes the formatting of existing things that I am sure were created on a desktop style PC with a keyboard and mouse.

    I wish we could get away from touch other than for consumption and not try and do things that clearly are not suited to touch. Even Microsoft's own tablet comes with a keyboard and trackpad and has a USB socket for a mouse, deep down we all know touch=consumption, mouse and keyboard=real work.

    Anyway, now the great unwashed have bought the latest fad which is tablets and the fad is now dying, why persist with it. It was a fad like netbooks, they are just companion devices and the real work gets done on clamshell laptops or desktop PCs.

    I think tablets are here to stay as a type of device, but I am pretty sure all the spreadsheet, database and accounts people in the world will want a desktop box with a keyboard and a mouse plus all us developers and writers who need a keyboard to produce reams of text.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Windows 10 Development

      I find it crazy that they're throwing away decades of work and reputation on the desktop just to chase the handheld bandwagon.

      Sure, give it a shot with tablets and phones, but please don't drag the bulk of your customers down with you. Never have I wished may tablet was like my desktop, and I wouldn't even consider using a desktop OS that belongs on a tablet.

    2. dogged
      Stop

      Re: Windows 10 Development

      > I find XAML and WPF as mind-bogglingly complicated compared to the simple drag and drop I am used to in Windows Forms. They need to make it as simple as the Windows forms UI and hide all the XAML nonsense in the background.

      What? What madness is this? No, no they bloody don't. Windows Forms generates code-behind. That means there is logic in the display. That means that even if you attempt a loosely coupled design, any further UIs you add must replicate that logic extending your codebase every which way. It means unit testing becomes all but impossible.

      What you suggest is everything that was wrong with WinForms, WebForms, MFCs and especially VB-bastard-6. What you're suggesting is a WYSIWYG designer because those are so awesome, right? Right?

      Wrong.

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