FREE EBOOKS: Apple falls into line with EU refund laws

Apple has brought its latest terms and conditions in line with the EU's consumer laws, allowing customers to demand a refund for apps, ebooks and music within two weeks of purchase. Users of Apple's App Store, Mac App Store, iTunes Store and iBooks in Germany, France, Spain, Poland, and the Netherlands (as well as non-EU …

[DaLo]

There is no requirement on digital content

The strange thing is that there is no requirement of 14 days to refund a digital content delivery once the product has started to be downloaded or streamed as long as a few simple terms are met.

Therefore as soon as a user buys an app, ebook or streaming movie, as long as they were told that the download would start instantly and therefore they lose their 14 day window, when purchasing there is no obligation to allow a 14 day refund window.

If you can purchase an e-book without immediately downloading or reading it then you get 14 days, but as soon as you start reading it or downloading it your refund window ceases to exist.

I think Apple have misread the rules, or are being ridiculously generous (I would be surprised if it was the latter).

[Martin-73]

Re: There is no requirement on digital content

Yes, I'm wondering if there's something missing from the story. Once the download has been made, there should be no requirement to refund on a 'changed mind' basis, just on a 'doesn't work' basis. (Did this with an audiobook once, paid me money, downloaded, found it was in some weird proprietary format I couldn't open and demanded (and got) a refund.

This was in 2006, I hear the scourge of DRM is now much smaller, and missing from Fruitco's Offerings :)

[Nigel Whitfield.]

Re: There is no requirement on digital content

Exactly; for whatever reason, Apple has gone well beyond the requirements of the Consumer Contracts Regulations, which include a specific exemption for digital content where download has started - just as they do for media which has had the packaging opened.

Whether you view this as a sop to people who believe in intellectual property of not, it's there and is intended presumably to counter exactly this scenario - of people obtaining something that can be (like a CD) or is already in digital format, requesting a refund and keeping their copy.

It's clear from reading elsewhere on the net that some developers are pretty annoyed about this, and in some cases with good reason. Even if there aren't a huge number of people doing it, it could make a big difference to small developers. As far as I can see, the way Apple is doing this means that you could spend £47.99 on the TomTom Europe app for your week's driving holiday, then return it afterwards, which is surely not the intention.

I suspect perhaps it's laziness; yes, the T&Cs do apparently make clear that downloads remove the right to cancel, but that's not sufficient under the CCRs. You need to make sure that it's clear that once the download starts you have the right to cancel, and the new rules seem to be much more about making things clear than burying them in a document most people never read.

I think all they really need to do is to add a pop up before download that says something like "One this download commences, you lose the automatic right to cancel your order within 14 days"

Perhaps they simply decided that rather than tweak the store apps to add an extra popup for people in certain territories, it was just easier to rewrite the rules. They may even have imagined that it would make them sound even more fluffy and consumer friendly.

But in doing so, they run the risk of upsetting quite a lot of developers; far better to actually implement the rules properly - with a pop-up in-app, and perhaps a global setting for auto-downloads that defaults to off across all devices, as well.

[DrXym]

Re: There is no requirement on digital content

"Therefore as soon as a user buys an app, ebook or streaming movie"

Thing is, you're not buying an app, ebook or movie. You're buying the licence to it. That's why they can screw people over and it's why ebooks are subject to VAT while physical books are not.

The EU would be better off codifying the concept of digital property and classifying all platform neutral content - images, video, audio and books as such. And put in language to stop content providers inserting dynamic code or changing the codec or obfuscating the format to pretend it's not platform neutral.

Imbue digital property with the same rights as physical property - the right to loan, sell, trade or destroy and basically use in any manner a person sees fit.

[Mike Bell]

Re: There is no requirement on digital content

Apple are not being generous. Their terms of sale say:

"Exception to the right of cancellation: You cannot cancel your order for the supply of digital content if the delivery has started upon your request and acknowledgement that you thereby lose your cancellation right."

[DaLo]

Re: There is no requirement on digital content

@Mike Bell I don't have an iPhone to hand so couldn't check, just going by the story. However does it say this explicitly before you start the download? You have to be told this and agree to this specific term before the download starts, not just a catch-all ToC.

Also when this was introduced users were reporting that they could get a no quibble refund within 14 days even on apps that they had downloaded and played. The app also didn't auto-delete, it was just removed from "my purchases".

It may be that they are working on the explicit confirmation part but are allowing 14 day refunds up until then.

[Mike Bell]

Re: There is no requirement on digital content

You don't necessarily need an iPhone - it's your iTunes account that is relevant here.

I recently accepted updated terms and conditions that were presented to me prior to downloading some newly purchased content via my iTunes account. I couldn't say how it was worded because, naturally, nobody ever reads that stuff.

[Martin]

Simple work-round?

Surely the simple solution is to allow a refund on the ebook so long as it has not been used. Once it's been opened by the ebook reader software, you can't get a refund (unless it's faulty, of course).

[Tom 7]

Re: Simple work-round?

So if I write a complete pile of shit and you start to read it, realise it is total crap, you still have to pay? Mmmmwahhhhhhaaahhha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Simple work-round?

This is part of the no-quibble, change your mind, refund. If it is not satisfactory quality, broken, etc you have normal statutory laws (Sale of goods act in the UK for instance).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Simple work-round?

same as with a crappy movie. Otherwise the industry would go bust overnight :)

Also, where's the crap-o-meter to measure whether this or that pile of shite has hit a a prescribed (by whom, the EU?) level of crappiness (5/10?).

[arkhangelsk]

Re: Simple work-round?

As a consumer, I find this unreasonably infringing on my rights. The most common flaw on Ebooks is the over-usage of compression, causing graphics to degrade into non-legibility. Other flaws include poor OCR and sometimes weird layouts. All these cannot be spotted before buying, even if one is so dedicated due to the test-reading page limits.

[Mattjimf]

Sod the books, free music

So if I buy an album on iTunes, download it to my computer, then copy it from the iTunes music folder into a different folder or burn it to disc, I can then request a refund on the album and still have it.

How long before Apple are doing a U-turn on this.

[tkioz]

Re: Sod the books, free music

Have to be pretty committed to be a jerk to do this... It's not like it's a one click process and I'm sure people spamming refund will get looked at closely.

This is honestly a good step forward, people looking for a way to trash it are just cynics of the highest order. Most people are honest, or well lazy enough not to bother with gaming the system.

[werdsmith]

Re: Sod the books, free music

If you live in: Germany, France, Spain, Poland, and the Netherlands (as well as non-EU Norway) ??

These are the people that can be trusted not to abuse their rights.

Some apps really are abominable and we should not only be refunded, but also compensated for the strife.

[DarkWalker]

Re: Sod the books, free music

If someone is going to do this, he might as well just torrent the album. Less hassle.

[Badvok]

"a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks"

Wow, what a sad indictment on modern society when it is seen as remarkable that someone is able to read a book in less than two weeks.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Wow, what a sad indictment on modern society when it is seen as remarkable that someone is able to read a book in less than two weeks."

Indeed...I read "Noddy Goes To Town" in just 10 days and wos ded prowd of myself becoz I can reed very well now

[Anonymous Coward]

@Badvok

in that case, best not let on you can add numbers in your head - twice in two weeks I have done this at a checkout, and narrowly avoided being hounded to the local stake with pitchforks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is that surprising?

I read Stephen King's Insomnia from cover to cover the evening I bought it.

[Lamont Cranston]

Re: "a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks"

I thought that the point of this comment in the article was that it wasn't remarkable?

[Dave 126]

Re: "a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks"

The article didn't think it remarkable that a book be read in a fortnight, only an eBook on an iThing. It was inferred that one would only read a book on an iThing if there wasn't a dead-tree book or dedicated eReader to hand - i.e whilst commuting.

I might read a book in a night or three in bed, whilst concurrently taking a month to read a book I keep next to the toilet.

[tkioz]

Assumptions

I love how people assume that readers will scam the system. I bet you any money the people that jump through the hopes to get a 'free' ebook will a tiny number of the total users.

I don't know about you guys but I actually reread my books and I like to have a nice collection to fall back on.

[Tom Wood]

Re: Assumptions

You have obviously never worked behind the refund desk in a bricks and mortar store.

When I was studying my A-levels I worked in Argos and people will try and get away with returning anything - artificial Christmas trees or lights that have obviously been used the week after Christmas being a particularly good one.

People occasionally used to even bring back empty packaging full of bricks or rubbish or whatever in the hope that we wouldn't check that the product was inside the box...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Assumptions

I bought my mum and dad a digital thingamajig from Argos about a year ago and turned to mumsie for some help removing the packaging, which went like this:

"Can you get the scissors and cut this wrapping off? Be careful not to cut the wire."

"Oh! I've cut the wire!"

Once I got my folks to comprehend it was now broken, dad promptly took it back to the shop saying it was faulty and got a replacement. I didn't have the brass neck to go in with him.

AC for obvious reasons.

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: Assumptions

people will try and get away with returning anything - artificial Christmas trees or lights that have obviously been used the week after Christmas being a particularly good one.

So charge a "restocking fee" on anything that's been opened. If you charge £5 on the Christmas lights it's probably more than the original profit, and you get the lights back to sell again. The "purchaser" has effectively rented the lights for 2 weeks for a fiver.

[werdsmith]

Re: Assumptions

The books I like reading are all out of copyright and free anyway.

[Vladimir Plouzhnikov]

Re: Assumptions @tkioz

I agree. Actually, Amazon always allowed 14-days returns for Kindle books and it didn't seem to cause them any problems. The online retailers can easily spot an account holder who is obviously abusing the system and ban them altogether. The fact that they (the likes of Amazon) still exist, IMHO, shows that the majority of their customers are honest people and that makes me think better of humanity as a whole :-)

[Tom 35]

Re: Assumptions

I expect anyone that wanted a free book would just download a cracked DRM striped copy.

[Anonymous Coward]

To clarify the law....

You have 14 days to cancel PROVIDED you have not downloaded any part of it. Once you start to download, it no longer applies....

HOWEVER:

Electronic content such as MP3 and video purchases are now classified as “digital content” and as such online retailers must now provide details of any technical functionality and any restrictions on the content.

If they fail to provide restrictions, such as DRM, then you can demand a refund should it not work.

[DarkWalker]

GOG did this far earlier for games

GOG does this for computer games, but with a longer window: 30 days.

And they sell DRM-free games, which means the consumer would be able to just download a copy of the game and return it without issues.

The fact they are still in business, and growing their catalog, speaks for itself, IMHO. While there are some bad apples that will abuse the system, seems like most of their customers are honest.

(And, of course, if anyone wants a free game, just torrenting it tends to be less hassle than purchasing it and getting a refund.)

[SolidSquid]

Re: GOG did this far earlier for games

GOG's model is pretty good actually, you can build up a library of games that you can store locally, but essentially have backed up online if you delete them by accident. Also any updates to the software get provided through the same download system as the game itself. Not quite as straight-forward as Steam since you need to download patch installers, but the good pricing and the lack of restrictions which go with Steam make it a really nice platform to buy from

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: GOG did this far earlier for games

love gog.

[Amorous Cowherder]

"a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks, given a long enough commute into work."

Yes but if you keep "renting" books surely they're going to have something pull up for it, after the first half-dozen times you do it in a row!

[Anonymous Coward]

a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks, given a long enough commute into work

hell, they can finish a book in 20 min, all you need is a digicam at hand, OCR... voila. But then, why would they bother, if they can "get" it via torrents. Plus, would "affluent" apple users bother, or dare? Red herring.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks, given a long enough commute into work

all you need is a digicam at hand, OCR... voila.

For an eBook?

[frank ly]

Re: a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks, given a long enough commute into work

He has a very good high resolution display, so he gets better copies with no errors from the OCR.

[Vladimir Plouzhnikov]

Re: a lot of people can finish an ebook in two weeks, given a long enough commute into work

I believe the AC's point was to say that copying a dead-tree book and then returning it to the bookshop is just as possible as with an ebook and so the difference (in terms of risk for the seller) between returns policy on physical and electronic books is less than it seems at the first glance...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now what we really need

Now something similar on games that don't fucking work please. One area where Steam is definitely a bastard is on returns of obviously faulty games. Doesn't need to be 14 days, 3 is enough to download and find out a game is just lies and shit mixed with piss. Often an hour is required, install game, start game, crash, read forums, thousands of complaints, dozens of bodges, finally get into the game, bugs and shit everywhere all over the walls and floor. End up feeling like you're playing debugger simulator 2010.

Buyer beware is all well and good but "developers release games that fucking work" I feel should be of a higher priority and having to give the consumers money back if the game is an unplayable shit pile would be a good start.

[Boothy]

Re: Now what we really need

I agree in general, although it's normally the publisher that releases the game, not the developer. (Unless it's a small development house/bedroom developer using Steam as the publishing mechanism of course).

But I do think games, and software in general, should come under the same kind of control as other purchased goods.

i.e. Fit for purpose, faulty, misleading/inaccurate feature lists or requirements etc.

I suspect one of the main barriers, is you are not actually buying goods, you are paying for a licence to use someone else's product. You don't actually own anything :-/

But that's not to say rules couldn't be implemented, i.e. if a bug is serious, (i.e. game stopping) and affects more that n% of the user base, the publisher must, by law, fix that bug within a reasonable time (i.e. weeks, not months).

How you would police this though, is another matter!

[Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese]

Amazon recommendations?

People who fraudulently obtained a copy of this title also stole...

[auburnman]

If you're that determined to read books and return them within a time limit to avoid paying a fee, I recommend you look up these things called "Libraries." I'm sure they're still around...

[LucreLout]

Oddly enough, if my library was open 24/7 rather than a few hours while I'm at work 40 miles away, I probably would use it a lot more.

I'm not excusing the returning of ebooks after reading them though - its almost like people doing that want the authors just to give up and not bother publishing anything new. Idiots, they are.

[Haro]

Sorry, your libraries don't lend out ebooks?

[Anonymous Coward]

Libraries

As they lend out DVD's why not ebooks?

[William Phelps]

Libraries

The libraries in the US do lend out ebooks.