iWallet: No BONKING PLEASE, we're Apple

Apple's iWallet mobile money app could be the start of a more general trend that sees web giants such as Facebook pushing into the payment industry, according to online payment experts. iWallet would give iPhone-toting consumers the ability to pay for goods with their smartphones. It is predicted to use the firm's Touch ID …

[Anonymous Coward]

Really?

So merchants having shelled out to put relatively simple NFC contactless readers into POS card readers, and card issuers putting the capability into virtually every new card issued in the past couple of years, and yet still hardly anybody making contactless payments, they're all going to spin the hamster wheel again so that iPhone users can feel cool and not have to locate their payment card? All this shows is that marketeers are predominantly fanbois who think the solution to anything is an iDevice.

[Roger Greenwood]

Re: Really?

"relatively simple NFC"

Is that why it's rubbish and insecure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Contactless cards? Heard of them

Two of my existing bank cards have been replaced this year and a new account has seen me get two more cards. All are major banks and card companies.

NONE of them are contactless enabled. These cards are valid to 2017 and 2018 so unless they all get re-issued I won't be using contactless any time soon.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Contactless cards? Heard of them

In reply to your anecdote, I have two nfc-equipped bank cards. They work in Lidl, but Sainsbury and Tesco haven't got there yet. (They also work at the cafeteria at the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton.)

I think the problem is simply that most people are terrified of banks and banking and take years to adopt even straightforward technology. It's like pay-at-the-pump, where people look at the machine, press the button, go in to pay and come out obviously not having bought anything else - most of the people I see around here who can actually use them as intended seem to be Army officers.

[Anonymous Coward]

I wasn't against Contactless use

More pointing out that I can't use it even if I wanted to.

Think back to Chip & Pin, there was a big song and dance around the roll out.

Contactless, Meh, Barclays have been leading the way in marketing it, and so have Visa for the world cup and olmpics promo's, and I know its enabled on London bus's, but I don't bank with Barclays so its irelevent. Most other banks don't seen to have it on their list of priorities to get replacment NFC enabled cards to customers, which means either they don't see it as a priority (or at least not worth the cost of replacing cards en mass like they did with C&P), or customers are not asking for it...

It may also be the big companies having shelled out a fortune to update till software to C&P don't want to do the same again to NFC enabled tills untll there are enough cards to make it work, . I *think* the local Sainsburys have the logo on there card readers, but I guess its chicken and egg.

[Androgynous Cupboard]

Re: I wasn't against Contactless use

Think back to Chip & Pin, there was a big song and dance around the roll out.

Performed by the comedy duo Fish & Cushion as I recall.

<Tumbleweed>

Anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Contactless cards? Heard of them

> I have two nfc-equipped bank cards. They work in Lidl, but Sainsbury and Tesco haven't got there yet.

That's funny, because in Poland all Tesco card terminals, except for self-checkout counters, are NFC equipped and the cashiers seem to have been instructed to point this out to customers (probably as it makes checkout faster).

[WonkoTheSane]

Re: Really?

Apple won't use NFC because they don't hold the patent.

The patent for NFC payments is owned by Visa & Samsung <-- because this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

Or because it's not great and Apple think they can do better?

It imposes a limit of £20 per transaction unless you enter your pin (so why bother with the contactless payment?).

Apple would have us using the phone to initiate the payment and fingerprint for the verification. No stupid £20 limit or remember a PIN.

[regadpellagru]

Re: Really?

"Apple won't use NFC because they don't hold the patent.

The patent for NFC payments is owned by Visa & Samsung <-- because this?"

Possibly. However, Apple is taking a risk in offering an "Apple-only" payment solution. Having the tablet OS and hardware by the same vendor has a lot of merit, but such is not the case of the phone manufacturer and payment provider. This is a problem as sellers will face 2 standards: Apple only or NFC based.

I don't see Apple winning this one.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

The only bit that may be regarded as "Apple only" is the software interface.

Unlike NFC there's no dedicated hardware required, pretty much most new(ish) phones have BT (4?) and WiFi

This'll get more traction purely because of the number of compatible ios devices that are already out there *right now*.

[Mike Bell]

Re: Really?

I've used a contactless payment card on a few occasions. But to tell the truth, I'd prefer the option of holding my thumb briefly on my phone's fingerprint sensor to do the same thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

At least in the US, few merchants have shelled out to support NFC, and few will shell out to support Apple's iBeacon either. It will probably be a great way to buy stuff in an Apple store, and maybe a few other places, but what incentive to retailers have to support this? The same as they had to support NFC - none.

The only way Apple gets widespread support is if they pay the cost for getting the necessary hardware, and take a smaller payment processing cut. Apple can certainly afford that, and getting 50% of the per transaction cost on a lot of transactions is better than getting 100% of the transaction cost on a small number of them.

But I don't think they're really serious about it, they're probably just looking at the tens of billions in sales they have from apple.com and Apple stores every year and thinking "man, if we didn't have to pay 2% on every charge we'd make hundreds of millions more every year"

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

iBeacon hardware is already out there in vast numbers - the same ipads and iphones being used to process transactions now (square etc) are all just an app-away from being a suitable iBeacon-compatible processing unit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

"But I don't think they're really serious about it, they're probably just looking at the tens of billions in sales they have from apple.com and Apple stores every year and thinking "man, if we didn't have to pay 2% on every charge we'd make hundreds of millions more every year""

They still have to send the data to the credit card company and get the response back... I fail to see how this would get rid of Visa's/Master Card's 2% cut.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

Why would they send the data to a credit card company? If Apple is serious about doing payments they'll set up their own "Apple Credit" (similar to Paypal's Bill Me Later) that people would pay via check or bank debit just like they pay their credit cards. No reason to keep the credit card company around as a middleman.

Since they're working with Paypal already for Beacon, they might even share infrastructure with Bill Me Later, so they don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[DiViDeD]

Re: Really?

"people would pay via check or bank debit just like they pay their credit cards"

I kinda assume 'check' is the same thing as 'cheque', and it got me thinking. How many commentards have even *seen* a cheque in, say, the last 10-15 years?

My reason for asking is not entirely frivolous. Last week the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade sent me a cheque for $108.00, and it was the first cheque I'd seen, certainly since I arrived in Australia (in 2004), and for some time before that. I kind of assumed nobody 'did' cheques anymore, not even the very very old, so I was interested to hear that at least one person (Doug) uses a cheque to pay their credit card bill.

I can't believe that Australia is at the cutting edge here (although we've been using NFC Payment for quite a while at supermarkets, coffee shops, railway stations and car parks to name a few.

So tell me, are you guys all busily writing out cheques in huge numbers and I just never noticed?

Serious (well, semi serious, well..) enquiry here

[John Tserkezis]

Re: Really?

"How many commentards have even *seen* a cheque in, say, the last 10-15 years?"

Not exactly lots, but every so often. Heck, even now, they're only a little less common than they were 10-15 years ago. I'm guessing your mileage (kilometreage?) may vary, because *you* see them less often, and my brother-in-law deals with cheques as a regular part of his job (he's in refrigeration).

Cheques do have some advantage, I had to transfer about $30K to my brother in law some years back, couldn't do it online because of their "safety" systems, and oddly enough there was a $35.00 fee for doing electronically at the bloody bank. For pressing a few fucking buttons. So I made out a bank cheque to him that cost me 5 bucks.

It's the principal of the thing - I flatly refuse to humour an electronic transfer system that costs almost no man hours in the transfer, to cost me more than a five fucking dollar cheque that involes a significant amount of human handling.

[John H Woods]

Well ...

We use cheques moderately often. You can give them to kids for birthdays and xmas, especially if you're posting. You can give them to the farrier, the (equine) dentist, the (equine) back expert and the yard manager. I'm guessing it's about amounts - a tradesman who's going to bill between a few hundred and a grand a day probably doesn't want that knocking around in his van/home all week.

In fact, I don't even like having 100 on me in cash, and none of the aforementioned people are set up to take card payments, so it's often the best option. Not to mention the fact you can always say "I don't suppose you could hold that and cash it next week?"

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Well ...

> You can give them to the farrier, the (equine) dentist,

Your dentist is a horse?

[Throatwobbler Mangrove]

Re: Really?

"How many commentards have even *seen* a cheque in, say, the last 10-15 years?"

At home, never. At work (not a large office), we probably receive and send hundreds of the freaking things a month. We send and receive more electronic payments than that, obviously.

[Brangdon]

Re: I fail to see how this would get rid of Visa's/Master Card's 2% cut.

They could use Bitcoin or Nxt.

[big_D]

Re: Really?

Here in Germany more and more stores are showing NFC logos. They still don't accept credit cards, but you can pay with your NFC card.

In Poland, the banks have been giving out NFC stickers, which you can stick to the back of your phone.

And it isn't just for payments. At work, when I walk into the conference room, tap the phone on a sticker by the door and it automatically goes silent, there are NFC stickers for guest Wifi and so on. The Apple phone users have to fiddle around with settings or, for thr Wifi, make a snapahot of a QR Code to download a profile for the Wifi - non-NFC Android devices have a different QR Code which just gives it the Wifi ID and password.

Whatever Apple do, they don't seem to be able to do the simple, standard way, they have to go their own way.

Likewise I have a Yubikey NEO for 2 factor authentication. Works with Windows, OS X, Android and WindowsPhone. On the PC, plug it into the USB port and press the button and it kicks out the one time password. Likewise on my smartphones, just touch it to the back of the phone and it authorises the app automatically. Fast, easy and secure. Just not with iOS devices.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Re: Really?

"in the US, few merchants"

Intesting, because in Australia, 80-90% of shops do it.

" yet still hardly anybody making contactless payments"

Actually, lots of people do contactless payments. For instance, I do it almost every day. Most phone makers implement it and I understand that in asia, this gets very heavy usage. The problem Apple is trying to solve, is that this is an open system, based on published standards that everybody can buy, implement and get certified to join the system. Apple hasn't joined the NFC people because there is no money in it for them.

By setting up their own unique, proprietary, system, Apple will be able to lock out all the other phone makers and ensure a revenue stream similar to the Apple AppStore. Obviously, us as sensible consumers, actively looking out for our own interests and with an eye on the future, should avoid this lock-in like the plague. But no, fanbois will queue up at the abatoir gates to have their throats cut, like the sheep they are.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Fluffy Bunny

If Apple does as you suggest, how exactly does it hurt the consumer? Why should I care if I use a credit card, cash, Apple's supposed solution, or NFC from whatever player uses it? So long as what I get - in terms of rewards, anonymity, or whatever I value - meets my needs and compares well in my mind with the alternatives how is using Apple's solution hurting me? It isn't as if using Apple's solution makes it impossible to use NFC wherever/whenever I wish, or to continue using credit cards and cash as I do now.

There is no lock in here, using Apple's solution doesn't prevent anyone from using anyone else's. The only difference would be that non-iPhone users would be unable to use it, but I could get a NFC tagged card to use if I gave a damn about using NFC - which I might if it offered better value than simply swiping my credit card. As far as I can tell though, it is just a different way to swipe that might save me 0.5 seconds.

Already I'll use different credit cards for different things - I'll get offers where one gives me 5% rewards (cash back) for certain types of purchases or with certain retailers, so I'll use that one while it is in effect (if I remember to do so) Some places it is more convenient to simply use cash, or if I was buying something I didn't want records of I'd have that option as well. So depending on what Apple's solution consists of, I might use it for some purchases, or might ignore it and never bother except maybe when buying a new iPhone every couple years.

[Tim Bates]

Re: Really?

> Intesting, because in Australia, 80-90% of shops do it.

Yep. And most banks are steadily replacing the aging fleet of non-NFC terminals with modern contactless enabled ones as they fail. Some are still keeping their old dialup terminals going, but others are rolling out replacements there too. And with the Telstra 2G network being shut down soon, almost all mobile terminals will be contactless by this time next year.

> How many commentards have even *seen* a cheque in, say, the last 10-15 years?

I see cheques nearly every day. They're still quite popular out this way, particularly with older business people. At a guess, approximately 1/3 of payments made to my workplace would be cheques.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Really?

> yet still hardly anybody making contactless payments

That must be qualified: depends on the market. In Central Europe, contactless is quite widely used (not merely "accepted": used).

I have no idea why customer behavioural patterns are so different between regions that are otherwise very close in other respects, though.

[Valerion]

I already have an NFC iPhone

I made it by keeping my debit card in the back of my iphone case. Every time I want to use the contactless, I just put the phone against the reader. Job done.

Sometimes the proposed solutions are far more complex than the easy way...

[Phil O'Sophical]

Re: I already have an NFC iPhone

Sounds great, that way you can lose both at the same time, and won't be able to call the bank to report the lost card :)

[Richard Jones 1]

Re: I already have an NFC iPhone

Its an iPhone, do they even make telephone calls? I thought they were too cool for voice which might connect to a normal person.

To make calls you used to have to have a Nokia has that changed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I already have an NFC iPhone

Oh no, don't put your phone and you wallet in your pocket then. What if you lost your trousers?

[tom dial]

Re: I already have an NFC iPhone

Or, with the iThingy you can lose it (alone) and not be able to report the loss. Not much of an operational difference that I can see.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Re: I already have an NFC iPhone

I think you misunderstand the problem Apple is solving here. The problem isn't your need to do contactless payment. The problem is that billions of dollars are being spent and Apple isn't getting it's cut.

[Stretch]

iDiots.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm... so, iPhone users will have to carry their phones with them, to use in the few outlets that will install the new hardware, as well as their existing cards, to use in those that don't.

And that's a good feature?

[Anonymous Coward]

"so, iPhone users will have to carry their phones with them" - that's not exactly an edge-case scenario!

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably not because of patents, but because NFC is pointless

It is and always has been a solution looking for a problem. I can already charge up to $50 in a lot of places on my credit card without a signature, of course no PIN, and no "smart" features on my card. Just a simple swipe! What is NFC going to gain me, other than the possibility of someone skimming my card information without even having to pick my pocket?

Whether Apple adopts it is irrelevant, even Apple's support couldn't make it a success at this point. The real story here is about Apple adopting their own payment scheme, but that's not unexpected. There's a lot of money in payments that the card companies / banks / processors are currently raking in, and everyone wants a piece of that juicy pie. The retailers want a piece as a way to lower the cut they pay. The makers of cell phones and cell phone OSes want a piece because they figure everyone is carrying their phone around, so let's figure out a way to make them want to pay that way and earn us money. The carriers are thinking the same thing too, of course. Then you have big internet companies with lots of users like Facebook and Amazon looking to get involved. Yes, Amazon - I just read about it recently, though I can't see how they think ANY retailer is going to accept Amazon payments when Amazon is their biggest competitor!

In a few years there will be a lot more ways to pay for stuff, but most retailers will only support some of them. In one place you can use your Apple payments but not Samsung payments, in the next you can use your Google Android payments but not your Verizon payments, in another you can use your Facebook payments but not your Amazon. One place will accept Bitcoin but not Dwalla. it will be a giant confusing mess and frustratingly for all involved most people will end up sticking with the traditional way of paying using a bank or credit card because they'll know it is accepted everywhere.

FWIW, I did read a rumor that Apple is going to add NFC support to the iPhone 6. Yes, same rumor as about the 5S, 5, 4S and 4. The claim this time is that it is big in Asia and they need to have that support or they'll lose market share. I haven't been to Asia in many years so I don't know how true that is, but there are already solutions for adding a "NFC case" to an iPhone so there seems little need for Apple to add it to the phone itself.

[JaitcH]

The unbeatable, totally private way of payment ...

C.A.S.H.

Living in a cash (mainly) society is great ... no tax people tracking your income. Even large government enterprises such as electrical generating systems (grid) pay cash to their vendors ... usually structured (split) payments.

[synonymous cowherd]

Re: The unbeatable, totally private way of payment ...

Too true, plus 'the man' cannot track your spending habits. Total FU to NSA/GCHQ whoever.

Just popping down the DIY shop for those bits to make a pipe bomb, do I pay C.A.S.H. or credit card?? Bring the revolution man

[DerekCurrie]

Die NFC! Die!

"Other payment platforms – such as mobile payments rival Google Wallet – use NFC."

NFC / RFID is crap technology that should never have been perpetrated in the first place. The faster it's dead the better. Here in the USA, we still have drooling lunatics who think there's anything good about NFC.

"Gee Whiz! My credit card now has an NFC chip!"

Yeah, and the lousy thing is more than happy to dump its data when 'bonked' by any little old lady or child with an amplified card reader. The encryption/password barrier can typically be hacked by a teenager. Yeah, I want one of those things. (o_O)

Sadly, the magnetic stripe credit card is still SAFER, well as long as it's not read into a Windows XP Embedded POS card reader. These POS POS devices, please note, are equally as dangerous when reading RFC cards, despite diversionary lies to the contrary. Retail remains stuck in the 20th century.

[no-one in particular]

Re: Die NFC! Die!

> NFC / RFID is crap technology that ... drooling lunatics who think there's anything good about NFC

So we're not in love with with a specific use of NFC/RFID (pay by bonk) therefore you are a drooling lunatic if you use it for - anything at all?