Paid more than they earn.
Any figures on how much these people were paid to add Taxi's to the Oyster card?
Government-funded bods at a tech incubator called the Transport Systems Catapult are working to design a "one-card-to-rule-them-all" system that includes London's buses, underground and overground trains as well as its black taxis, The Reg has learned. The pay-by-bonk system is intended to be similar to TfL's Oyster card, but …
@Ommerson of course people who's employment entails large numbers of small cash payments evade tax. It's popular these days to bash large companies for legally evading tax, but somehow seen as "OK" for individuals to do it illegally, even applauded. I'm not sure I understand why - my wages are all paid electronically and I have no way out of PAYE. I've known (and indeed still know) many people who illegally avoid income tax; if asked I always tell them as far as I'm concerned it's me they are robbing.
Taxi drivers generate "valid" inflated receipt by doing 3 circles around the target and taking the scenic route, not by having no trail.
So unless Taxi drivers are officially Uber-ized with the receipt being on the basis of real distance from A to B (not the round-n-round-we-go driven one) this is yet another gimmick with no value.
For at least some taxi drivers, it will be accountability and audit trail such a card generates that is the problem. No more jobs 'for cash'.
That might also explain the aggressive response against Uber, because with Uber you end up paying one fee, irrespective of how many detours were taken and all transactions will be stored somewhere. I shudder to think what that does for user privacy, though, isn't Uber's HQ in the US?
So this is just an oystaaar card added to taxis? wow. amaze.
Though did I read somewhere (here on Reg probably) that the Oyster tech/license costs TfL a fair amount, that's why they're desperate to try and replace it with a new bonking card tech?
I've heard they're already planning to call it the "Scampi" card, which I think is fantastic.
I already use my Oyster to travel pretty much anywhere inside the M25 north of the river, and a fair chunk south of the river (there be dragons etc etc) on overground, underground and buses.
So this is adding Oyster to some more Southern trains stations (extending out past Leatherhead for example), a few extra buses (the one that goes past my house to Watford Junction would be nice, and not that difficult as other Oyster enabled buses go to Watford Junction) and Taxis?
How can they talk about this with a straight face?
"The scheme was inspired by similar projects on the continent, such as a card in the Netherlands which allows travellers to pay for trains, hire bikes and even book electric vehicles."
Pray they don't make the same mistakes. And keep on top of whatever the companies involved are trying to do. While the Dutch 'OV-chipkaart' is a good idea in theory, the way it's been implemented is an example of how NOT to do things.
You have to keep a non-trivial sum on it, because they won't let you on unless you have enough to pay for a "reasonable" journey.. The only way to top it up free is with cash or a Dutch bank card. And they want to make it the only means of payment. At present, they have a surcharge for not using it.
"And they want to make it the only means of payment. At present, they have a surcharge for not using it"
I was over there the other week - I didn't realise that there's a price difference; While I was there on business, I can imagine tourists feeling that being fleeced for effectively not being a 'local' leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Same as London then :) There is a similar surcharge for not using Oyster nowdays.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I couldn't believe just how expensive a one day travelcard has become. I really cannot find any other explanation than that they seek to fleece tourists.
Not that that is new - in the days where there was there was more prominence of the (later aggressively hidden) Underground refund scheme, it was set up to require a UK address to send the refund cheque to. Not that even a London inhabitant stood much of a chance, because practically everything was done to stop you from claiming that refund, from taking in your ticket at the gate to making it a hard to process refund cheque so you spent ages queueing.
Even now you will find that fancy payment system can magically not handle an automated payment of that nature, no, you still need the manual whole paper & queueing process. Oh, and if you don't know of it, well, I heard it from more than one member of staff at London Underground that they were actively barred from mentioning it when there was a massive disruption. That, too, didn't come entirely as a surprise...
As someone else has observed, if you don't have an Oyster card, you also get "fleeced" in London. I was fortunate that I'd lived there for several years previous to my last visit, because I went straight to the Heathrow tube station and got myself a 1 week travelcard/Oyster and saved myself a bomb just on the trip to the West End (not to mention travelling around the remaining 4 days I was there).
The assumption is - and it is in every country of the world where I've been on public transport - that if you are a local you'll pay for a multi-trip ticket of some description for your commuting, which is effectively subsidised by the local council. Locals pay "full price" as well if they can't get off their chumps to get a multi-trip ticket and/or only travel by public transport very rarely.
In other words, why is any of this a surprise? It's not about "fleecing tourists" per se.
Why stop at London? This should work across all trains, trams, buses etc. Along with a sensible fare calculation system that means a ticket from Edinburgh to York should have cost the same as the five tickets I actually bought (at much less expense) for the same train (breaking it down into Edinburgh-Berwick Berwick-Newcastle Newcastle-Durham etc.).
The fact that one has to engage in that split-fare bollocks to get a reasonable price seriously pisses me off.
I generally prefer free markets, but the kind of crony capitalism bullshit we seem to implement and tolerate over and over again (utilities, banking, transport) makes me wonder about alternative approaches.
I don't recall baulking at the price of train tickets when I was at uni 20 years ago and earning significantly less. I may now be older and more cynical/miserly/unrealistic, but like I said, just talking about it makes my blood boil.
with a pie-in-the-sky idea I mulled over with some other crayonista train spottery types for personal travel pods at a complex rail interchange. The idea was to provide interchange at Old Oak Common by linking it to the Acton/Park Royal, Wembley/Neasden and Brent Cross/Hendon interchanges (which are not quite interchanges, but are so close they should be). You program your journey into an electronic ticket which guides you through the station (one argument against a massive Old Oak interchange is that so many lines converge there, the station would be a nightmare to navigate), and can program a personalised rapid transit pod with the correct interchange for you. Expanding that concept further, you could search for and select your route on your mobile device which can then be used to pay for the various stages of your journey, provide advice and guidance at stations and bus stops, programme personalised pods e.g. at airports presently, warn you about delays which may impact e.g. your flight departure.
But, as you say, it's a spooks paradise. You don't HAVE to use it, though.
So like others have said it's Oyster but *also* in taxi's. That's hardly a revolution. The train companies nationwide are already, glacially, working towards smart cards there's even a chap in charge of converging this with Oyster ( http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/about-us/the-atoc-directors/steve-howes/ ) and a standard written (PDF: http://www.atoc.org/download/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/RSPS3002%2002-00%20ITSO%20in%20National%20Rail%20-%20Specification(1).pdf ). Introduce ITSO requirements into all franchise renewals and force TfL to integrate with ATOC standard. Job done for all rail travel + London public transport.
I have 3 bought in a shop with no details attached I also use cash to top them up. I have no loyalty card and sometimes swap credit cards etc. with 'a friend'.
Oooh, I also live abroad and do not own a house, 2 cars etc. honest guv.
This week I am a female of a certain nationality for various reasons and next week who knows?
Call me paranoid if you want but a bit of data mining can reveal loads, so why not readjust reality.
The only person who neede to know about me was the tax man, now I live abroad it is someone else with a similar but more gentle purpose.
I think the ones you can buy in a shop without any registration process are "Visitor Oyster Cards", which whilst useful for the purposes you outline, they have limitations. Primarily, they can not be loaded with weekly, monthly or annual tickets, which most people who travel regularly in London will use for convenience and price.
This compares to Travelcards (showing old paper type, but similar for Oyster)
There are other benefits such as being able to transfer credit online if you lose a registered card, which I have, and it even refunds the £5 deposit need for the new card.
The Visitor cards are useful for spook-dodging as you described, but as I said, there are limitations.
(TRT beat me to it, but as he/she said, you can also add auto-Top Up etc.) So again, a big trade-of between privacy and convenience.
Visitor Oyster Cards are exactly the same as normal Oyster cards except you pay less of a deposit on it and you can't put any Travelcard fare on it. You can get a normal Oyster card without having to register it - you just can't put more than a 7-day travelcard fare on it
Station CCTV as well as ticket gate log files are probably synced to the same time source, so if they really were interested in you it wouldn't take long to connect you to a specific Oyster ID. You could confuse things by returning the card after a season ticker runs out, and getting a new cash one elsewhere, that breaks the chain.
Refunds are fun in this context - notice how much effort they put in to get your details as soon as it's about giving back some of their ill gotten gains? A few years back I had hard evidence on two separate cards that the system was overcharging pay as you go clients to quite a degree, and the kind of circular arguments used by their phone support to get ID out of me for refunds were impressive, albeit annoying. I won in the end, though, but that's more because I'm a stubborn git when annoyed and I was quoting bits of the DPA to the manager they eventually called.
I wouldn't mind buying a card with credit card access, but it's exactly this enthusiasm for abusing data that stops me from giving them a too easy route to track me. Screw that - I want them to put at least some effort in before they can.
It's an "Oyster card" that will work across any transport system: AKA a pay-by-wave credit/debit card.
They're "tracking brand sentiment": AKA conducting surveys/opinion polls.
If I didn't know better I'd think that someone at El Reg is taking the piss here, on the feeble pretext of it being Friday 13th.
Not everybody has a credit / debit card.
The great unwashed must be monitored, why not make cash payment expensive and registered card cheap. That way we can pick up those with less money and track them along with everybody else.
I like the idea of pay by bonk but I fear with a body like mine I would never be able to afford any goods or services.
"soon to be a booted out MP or Business Secretary."
Can we have both please, in one easy to vote (out) for package? Damn, I live in SE London, not SW. Not that there are many other options to choose anyway.
Got to let him have his optimism about 10% of a £900bn market though - he's a LibDem. Take away his optimism, what's he got left? Self-respect and the knowledge he stood by all his pre-election promises? (Actually, that's prob true about all of them, so maybe unfair to pick on just Vince "It wasnt me it was that nasty Lord Oakeshott" Cable).
As for IHateWearingATie's comments about "south of the river (there be dragons etc etc) ", I should hope there are dragons here, and I know they will be welcomed as part of our openness to new ideas, diverse culture, and new things in general. Unlike in the Stalinist- and assorted fascist- supporting area north of here. :-)
"It also raises questions of surveillance, as any card which is able to track a person's entire journey offers a fantastic opportunity for spooks, businessmen or politicians to snoop on citizens."
That war is already lost. Use public transport in London, and you are not only recorded at the Oyster machines, you are on a plethora of CCTVs (as you would anywhere else). So stop complaining, or fight this state of affairs. Or tilt at windmills.
It's a gigantic government IT project - what could possibly go wrong?
One obvious problem for a start. Once this is brought in all other methods of payment will be removed. The same way they are stopping cash payments for London buses. So if your card is lost or stolen, you won't be able to use any form of public transport. If you are stuck somewhere late on a Saturday night, you are stuck. Sorry young woman who's just been robbed, you're going to have to walk home and hope you don't get raped too many times on the way.
>>"It's a gigantic government IT project - what could possibly go wrong?"
Agreed. They should keep this as simple as possible. Create a protocol where start and end points can be costed which various transport methods can volunteer information with and make this publically available.
Private enterprise would take it from there with various phone apps and big players touting their own Door to Door software to create a travel plan and cost for you. Competition on these would be great and phones with NFC you could even use as the payment device as well as having them tell you where to go.
The government has already been pursuing a 'one card to rule them all' solution for about a decade. It's called ITSO.
It's been designed by committee and is obsolete before it's even hit prime-time.
It's found some use for concessionary fares on buses, and, in theory will be rolled out across rail franchises - although the franchisees aren't terrible keen.
The DfT has paid TfL quite a bit of money to make the Oyster infrastructure compatible with ITSO. It's worth noting here that Oyster is firstly commercially successful and handles *way* more transactions than ITSO does - or is likely to.
The real killer reason why TfL won't be switching is said to be that the transaction time on an ITSO card it really long - far longer than for Oyster. Not so much touch your card, but hold it there on the reader for quite a long time. If everyone used ITSO on the underground, gate-lines would suddenly have enormous queues behind them and stations would close due to overcrowding.
"If everyone used ITSO on the underground, gate-lines would suddenly have enormous queues behind them and stations would close due to overcrowding."
Alternatively we could do as the Czech's do and have a carrot and stick system. Buy a card, activate it, walk freely onto the underground. Stick comes in if you get caught fare dodging, which means they have more *people* on the network keeping an eye on things and fewer machines.
Of course this means there are fewer people getting paid to run those machines, skim transaction charges or just analyze gigabytes of passenger information to work out where bottlenecks may exist. Or just people who are x hrs away from home, where the next Amazon ticket office conversion should be. Or correlating data from wifi & phone info to make targetted mailing lists. Your phone + person who is not your wife's phone take a cab to the west end, then to a hotel so wife gets added to mailing lists for lawyers and PIs. The possibilities are endless, especially when 'cost overruns' (this is goverment IT) mean 'exciting data sharing opportunities' are explored.
I live near Milton Keynes, I assure you that the areas within the grid-lines are far from sterile. It's a great place to live and work and there are many opportunities for leisure activities. Even the broadband speed is starting to improve as the old cable TV system starts to be upgraded...
Something like this would be great outside London, especially for visually impaired types like myself. Thise awful ticket machines at railway stations that have replaced human beings are so confusing and not really geared up for blindies. I like to think I'm tech savvy, but one look at the machine and I just walked away and risked it buying my ticket on the train. imagine just being able to simplify buying train tickets with this thing?
It's sometimes interesting to hear government types excitedly speakabout how a program is worth X Billion for the market or the area. If companies receive 90 billion or 200 billion pounds/dollars, who do these government types think provides that money. There are only two sources of revenue. Government provided funds are paid by the taxpayers. If it doesn't come from taxes, this normally means the money is being paid by increases in the cost of services.
There is one other source however. If spending 90 billion means the cost of the service goes down by over 90 billion, then yes, it's free money. How often does a large, complex government IT project successfully reduce what people pay in taxes or for services? Most projects promise savings at the beginning but by the end it is way over budget, not as efficient as promised, not as usable as promised and delayed by years.
Color me skeptical.
Wrote :- "If spending 90 billion means the cost of the service goes down by over 90 billion, then yes, it's free money. [but] How often does a large, complex government IT project successfully reduce what people pay in taxes or for services?"
These IT projects should reduce costs, but Joe Sixpack seems willing to pay more if it seems more "up-to-date" because it seems cool. Hence, the entrepreneurs and contractors get away with fleecing the public without causing uproar.
In this case, if it is expected to cost 900 billion for a system just to sell tickets, it seems to me that whatever system is proposed must be incredibly inefficient from start to finish. Nor is it an innovation; you could buy through tickets across different transport systems and companies in Victorian times.
Will they require these, so you can't use cash or credit cards? They'd probably like to - they'd make a lot of money from tourists who visit, are forced to buy/carry an Oyster card for the visit, inevitably leave with some unused cash on it, and then misplace/forget it at home so the whole thing starts over again when they return for their next visit!
I suppose London can get away with that though, it isn't as though if I'm planning a trip to the UK I can say "well, London has that annoying Oyster scheme, maybe I'll visit Southampton instead"
which is that if you can pay for taxis with an Oyster card too and, erm, that's it......
However this a fascinating article that captures the most cutting edge aspects of the cutting edge in the world of marketing / management / bullshit. I mean the words "incubator" and "catapult" in the following quote would set off every El Reg reader's bullshit detector instantly :
Government-funded bods at a tech incubator called the Transport Systems Catapult
However, on viewing the image of the concentric circles with random words and financial estimates of millions of quid, I am convinced that the IT sectors in which I operate by making money using technology effectively to deliver efficienctly are going to be steadily eroded by this sort of shite
And our taxes are paying for it.
Where to begin with just how crass and over-simplified this is ??
One other commentard has mentioned ITSO. Let's not forget that it's been 15+ years in the gestation. Roll it out on a grand scale now and the tech will have a few years rather than a couple of decades of life - not a good idea. As far as I can tell the delays have all been around the politics of its introduction rather than anything conceptual or technical. So maybe the goal of this outfit should be how transport operator contracts and regulations should be recast rather than anything else. Still that would be too much like addressing the root of the problem, wouldn't it ???
Look at Oyster - it took a combination of a loaded gun to the head and bribery to get the Train Operating Companies to accept it. Notwithstanding that, the stupid Oyster Extension Permit (OEP) for Oyster season ticket holders using PAYG balances to travel out-of-zone remained a non-negotiable for them. The implementation costs of that were wasted as the TOCs realised within a matter of weeks of rollout what everyone else was telling them - it did nothing to manage fare evasion and was as user-friendly as a cornered cat.
If TfL do manage to get a workable solution (including daily capping) using payment cards, just what will this bring to the table ??
Bizarre. Anyone would think there was an election round the corner. Oh, hang on.
It will occasionally crash so you can't travel at all.
It will be hacked.
It will erode privacy.
Because it's not optical contactless nefarious 3rd parties will be able to monitor you or worse.
I'd use a combination of optical code and NF wireless tech and store only an ID on it split between optical code and NFC. That ID would log you in to database which would only store salted hashes of the ID. Ok you can still be tracked by the system owner, but not by 3rd parties and there would be nothing much to hack other than normal secure server.
But what do I know? I'm not a Taxpayer funded incubator with an expensively chosen name.
The rich trove of data this outfit will collect is huge. Then comes along the taxman for checking taxi drivers income.
Divorce lawyers will no doubt exploit the information, along with Plod. Imagine what GCHQ and the MI gangs will be able to do.
What about visitors, or poor people who don't rate for credit cards?
Cable is a dreamer, and not long for the unemployment lines. The Chinese don't want to buy anything, they are just waiting for others to prove the concept then they will move in and perfect the technology - as they have done with the Maglev, etc.
Biometrics could eliminate the need for any form of tactile card or other authentication system, and of course, work everywhere. A fingerprint and/or eye recognition system would take up little space in a retail or travel location and allow transactions to be carried out securely and quickly, with no risk that the customer would lose their ID or payment method.
Why are we skirting the issue? The technology is already built into the iPhone 5S, Samsung Galaxy S5 and various military establishments, so why not public locations? What is hold this back? Cost? Reliability? Is there a security issue we're not being told about? Etc.
It also raises questions of surveillance, as any card which is able to track a person's entire journey offers a fantastic opportunity for spooks, businessmen or politicians to snoop on citizens.
You forgot one very importany sector, Journalists.
Murdoch and friends will see their ability to follow their chosen victim from afar improve greatly.
All this idea needs for it to hit the buffers is for one of the MP's who has been phone hacked by the Sun/Turds of the world, to mention this in Parliament and almost every MP with something to hide will vote against it in an instant.