HP 'clarifies' firmware/support contract rules

A week after upsetting the user community with what looked like a “no patches without payment” policy, HP has moved to “clarify” its position. Rumours first emerged in December that ProLiant firmware would only be made available to customers with active support contracts, something confirmed in early February in a customer …

[Anonymous Coward]

Double-U Tee Eff?

In the first place shouldn't HP be providing us with servers with non-broken firmware?

And if said firmware is broken shouldn't it be HP's responsibility to mend it at no additional cost?

Admittedly it has been a while since any firmware on any server has given me any major headaches. Having said that however we did shift away from HP ProLiant (to the delight of just about everyone in our company) many years back and we are now Dell PowerEdge exclusive.

I guess the one benefit I see of this is that it's now a lot easier for me to convince my clients to stay clear from HP. While it is quite rare for there to be critical firmware bugs three years after release it is always nice to get small performance bumps from time to time through firmware optimization.

[ideapete]

Re: Double-U Tee Eff?

Same here , Idiots that wants you to pay for their bad QA , I can see the EU beagles laughing from here, great rep HP

[Ross K]

Re: Double-U Tee Eff?

Bad QA? That's a retarded statement to make.

Firmware updates, BIOS updates and security patches are all quite normal and not indicative in the slightest of quality problems. I'd be more worried about any company who thought their product was infallible, and never needed updating...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cue Flood

of Product Liability sueballs for defective firmware in the US.

[localzuk]

Re: Cue Flood

Doubt it'll just be the US! Supplying flawed/faulty equipment and refusing to fix it without further payment is not looked upon kindly in the EU either...

[vmistery]

So do I buy Dell who regularly ship me servers with faults and who have assigned me a rep I can't understand or HP who are not going to fix anything broken after the initial period. I have lost either way in my opinion. I hope Lenovo do what they did for ex IBM desktops to the servers very soon.

[Charles Smith]

Never did like 'em

I always found the HP people arrogant and their tin overpriced. Now they want to charge you for fixing their duff firmware. This announcement is further confirmation.

Buy elsewhere.

[Lusty]

I think this is illegal in the UK. They are obliged to support for 6 years from date of purchase for warranty. Since they agree to give security patches, and they are obliged to fix defects present at manufacture there really isn't much left other than feature improvements but then they will need to produce a vast array of firmwares, some with just fixes and some with just features.

[Smoking Gun]

"to create great customer experiences with our products" ... not dealing with HP 1st liners in India would create great customer experiences. It's the main reason clients I know often prefer 3rd party support.

[Smoking Gun]

Cisco have been doing this for years though? What's the difference between say a switch, or a wireless LAN controller and a server? Where is the uproar against Cisco?

[Anonymous Coward]

The uproar against Cisco is silent 'coz they've always worked like that.

It is expressed by using other suppliers' kit wherever possible, at least here.

[Anonymous Coward]

But along with bug fixes, Cisco also include improvements and add new features to their stuff. Far more goes into development than in a BIOS fix. How many new features do you get in a new BIOS ?

[Tim Bates]

Cisco products that require support contracts for firmware are more like full operating systems though, not boot firmware. Cisco's charges for IOS updates are more like Apple's charges for OSX updates.

[Hapkido]

Really people,

So if a hard disk fails, the vendor should replace it - what, indefinitely?

C'mon,

All servers have a minimum form of warranty support, typically in our industry it is 12 months as minimum with additional years for maintenance and support as an option. Obviously that first 12 months as std, is built into the cost. The irony, I can imagine some customers reducing this too if it were optional, haha. The vendor (or optional third party businesses) are giving you the option, you pay for it, or you don't.

It really is simple, and not illegal at all.

[Lusty]

"typically in our industry it is 12 months as minimum"

Maybe in America but in the EU it's 2 years and UK it's 6. Hardware breaking has nothing to do with this though, this is about HP refusing to give fixes which were previously freely available to fix the software bugs they put in.

[Sandtitz]

@Lusty

"Maybe in America but in the EU it's 2 years and UK it's 6."

That 2 year rule is a consumer protection act. That doesn't concern b2b and I guess only 99,9999% of Proliants and other servers are bought by businesses. Small businesses aside I also guess most companies opt for a 3-year or longer warranties to have broken hardware fixed quickly.

I'm not a UK citizen and know next to nothing about UK law, but the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (I just googled it) seems to have provisions for businesses to exclude liabilities in a contract.

Or do you guys in the UK actually have a 6-year-warranty on everything - even in b2b?

[Fuzz]

Re: @Lusty

We don't have a 6 year warranty on anything. Goods have to last a reasonable amount of time what that means is going to vary from item to item. The responsibility for this is with the supplier not the manufacturer, I think most people buy their servers from their favourite distributor I know I do so HP aren't liable for anything.

In any case B2B doesn't count.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: @Lusty

What you've just done is demonstrated a complete lack of understanding on the rights and expectations under UK and EU law

[Ross K]

@Hapkido

Obviously that first 12 months as std, is built into the cost. The irony, I can imagine some customers reducing this too if it were optional, haha.

Truest thing anybody's written in this thread... Have an upvote.

People want the world, but don't want to pay for it.

[SpottedCow]

RE: Hapkido - This isn't about hard drives

BIOS and firmware updates are commonly to correct bugs. I don't expect a vendor to produce firmware updates forever, after all lifecycles end; but I *do* expect them to provide them for free as long as they are continuing to develop them.

Let's put it this way: I'll pick some ancient Dell PowerEdge servers, the 4300/4400 line, based on P2/P3 Xeon processors. I can *STILL* download their firmware from Dell, as well as PERC 4 SCSI RAID controller firmware, and I can do it for free, despite the fact that the servers are ancient, obsolete hardware.

I don't expect Dell to keep making firmware for these systems. However, for HP to argue they are aligning with "industry standard practice" when clearly one of their biggest competitors isn't doing it is, quite honestly, bollocks. This is beancounter talk, not engineer-talk, and frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of it.

[DRTRlady]

HP has possibly changed their pronouncement and will offer "Safety and Security" firmware updates to existing customers. This brings up questions such as "How does HP differentiate between safety and security updates?" "What are the other updates and what is the value proposition" and "Why would anyone expect to be charged to help HP support their products as they promised they would work?"

Switching to another vendor does not solve the problem. The next vendor can make the same claim at any moment. This is a worldwide problem created by multi-national vendors. Don't complain here - complain to your local legislators wherever you live and tell them to require vendors to sell assets that can be repaired, reconfigured, resold, without paying a tithe to the OEM.

[Sandtitz]

_

HP has possibly changed their pronouncement and will offer "Safety and Security" firmware updates to existing customers. This brings up questions such as "How does HP differentiate between safety and security updates?"

The VP states in her blog that only BIOS and CPLD firmware (anyone care to explaint what that is?) are not available in the future unless under warranty/contract. I've never heard of a Proliant with BIOS vulnerability, nor have I seen a BIOS update release notes that resolves vulnerabilities.

"What are the other updates and what is the value proposition"

The VP states in her blog that only BIOS and CPLD firmware are not available freely.

and "Why would anyone expect to be charged to help HP support their products as they promised they would work?"

Promise? Since when did HP et al. promise their products would work? They'll probably promise to give their best effort or something similar and that's it.

[Michael Habel]

Re: _

The VP states in her blog that only BIOS and CPLD firmware (anyone care to explaint what that is?)

BIOS: Basic Input Output System

CPLD: Complex Programable Logic Device

[Sandtitz]

Re: _ @Michael Habel

BIOS: Basic Input Output System

CPLD: Complex Programable Logic Device

No shit, Sherlock.

Since you got mad googling skillz there mate, why don't you explain what the CPLD does. Fan control, PDU, ...what?

[Jay108]

Agree whole heartily,

Will their be a stable branch and a feature branch? If so will the bug fixes be backdated to the stable? Example question: So instead of V1.x0.x it'll either be V1.x0.xS or V1.x0.xF ? (Guess work at this point, no idea how they will separate the two).

Unless bug fixes will be V1.xx.x or new features will be V2.xx.x? That is already a nightmare because it means some servers will not apply V2 (outside of warranty) therefore you're running on a non-standardised platform thanks to firmware differences. Unless of course you have one server in a support contract and apply the new firmware to the non-supported servers? What will be next for firmware updates to prevent this? Firmware serial codes and numbers, phoning home?

We're moving away from HP very rapidly, in fact one (a.e. some) of our clients we've already recommended they look at other options before purchasing HP servers. Technically according to HP policies, third party companies are no longer authorised to install firmware updates from a few emails I've seen recently (think el'reg already has them and reported on them a few months ago). We've been advised to either pay HP to be an authorised support contract (£££) for our work to be sanctioned / supported or simply our work will not be sanctioned or supported by HP - with a vague threat it may invalidate the manufacturer warranty.

I can only assume they do want to get out and leave the server business. The twisted irony is that Dell sent an email a few days later stating they would allow third party companies to upgrade firmware on Dell servers and their warranties would not be invalidated. Quite weird to be on the same side as Dell. Usually it should be the opposite way around IMHO. I don't know who is steering the HP ship but it's about to hit a large ice berg.

[ender]

> What will be next for firmware updates to prevent this? Firmware serial codes and numbers, phoning home?

I wouldn't be too surprised - recent ProLiants have built-in firmware downloader in BIOS (which failed to do anything every time I tried to use it - it just gives you a black screen with an X for mouse cursor, and you have to power down the server to get away from that).

[Sandtitz]

@ender

recent ProLiants have built-in firmware downloader in BIOS (which failed to do anything every time I tried to use it

Try plugging the network cable next time you try. I've had no problems with the Intelligent Provisioning firmware update. It doesn't upgrade to later BIOS versions than included in the latest SPP packages, which is a long minus though.

[Anonymous Coward]

To those who don't get why its a problem, lets be clear, no other hardware provider of servers with any significant market share does this, or has ever done this in my 10 years with hardware, and no consumer provider of hardware has done this for as long as I've been using the internet.

I think the EU expects that hardware should function for 5 years, which is how Apple got caught with failing devices or batteries or something after 12 months a few years back.

No company is going to plan to deploy a server for less than 3 years outside of the city, so the 12 month argument is rubbish, and as for disks, before SSD's came out they were all competing to offer a 3 or 5 year warranty.

HP offer 3 years as standard for servers, and even with a 12 month Dell warranty, the EU would protect you from design problems resulting in early failures (within 2 years) and provide reasonable expectation of functional support for its lifetime, which for HP is about three years, but for IBM it is five or more I think.

They have killed the 2nd hand server market for HP servers and effectively alienated every company and hobbyist who wants to get as much value for money as possible...

by running a new server for 5 years or more -with reasonable expectation that it will boot and provide expected performance with a new SSD-Caching RAID card three years down the line, wont overheat because it's running a firmware version HP shipped with a cooling glitch, and won't have anomalies accepting new iLO serials.

All examples of HP firmware failings

[Sandtitz]

@Maikakaat

"I think the EU expects that hardware should function for 5 years"

That's a bold statement. Can you back it with a reference in europa.eu website?

...or are you just mixing consumer protection with b2b sales?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong about that?

"Starting February 2014, an active warranty or contract is required to access HP ProLiant Server firmware updates"

What's wrong about that, the company makes money selling support contracts part of which are firmware updates.

[Tim Bates]

Re: What's wrong about that?

On thing that's wrong with it is the fact that the announcement came basically at the same time they implemented the new policy. Existing customers may not be included in the new scheme (I don't know), but the information given implied existing customers may not get updates later in the system's life.

[Davidoff]

@Hapkido

You really don't seem to get it. FYI: it's not about hardware defects, and no-one has claimed that HP should stink up for defective parts forever. This is about firmware/BIOS updates. And what you're ignoring is that HP's 'firmware' updates primarily made to address bugs and problems that should not have been in the server in the first place. And these problems can be wide ranging from occasional crashes to the silent data corruption. And fixing these bugs is the main reason new firmware comes out, the addition of new features is quite rare (some updates contain support for newer processors).

And now HP wants to charge for that. Providing BIOS fixes for commodity servers and PCs is pretty standard practice in the industry for more than 2 decades, with the exception of Oracle (and their hardware sales have been declining for a while now). I can buy the cheapest, crappiest mainboard on the planet, and still am able to get free BIOS updates. I can buy whitebox servers which are much cheaper than a ProLiant and also get firmware updates for free. But when I pay for a ProLiant I pay a premium and now am also supposed to pay for BIOS updates? Certainly not.

"It really is simple, and not illegal at all."

Really? We bought some ProLiant servers that are approaching the end of their warranty, however when we bought them we weren't aware that we had to pay for access to BIOS updates after the warranty runs out. This is a major cost that has now been placed upon us, and probably does have some legal implications as well.

At the end of the day charging for BIOS updates is a stupid thing to do, and we won't even buy HP workstations any more because our confidence in the company has been damaged.

It seems that this is to have ProLiant customers pay for the incompetence of the HP board when they sunk all the money into Authonomy.

[Ross K]

Re: @Hapkido

Really? We bought some ProLiant servers that are approaching the end of their warranty, however when we bought them we weren't aware that we had to pay for access to BIOS updates after the warranty runs out. This is a major cost that has now been placed upon us, and probably does have some legal implications as well.

Today must be wannabe internet lawyer day...

It's shocking news that second hand goods may require further expenditure/upkeep after purchase.

I guess that means I can sue the garage I bought my last second hand car from - seeing as I had to spend money servicing it and remedying "defects" like worn tyres or timing belts nearing the end of their service life.

Sign me up to your newsletter please.

[Jay108]

Re: @Hapkido

That's not the same thing and probably suspect you're trolling. Let's picture those original tires had an issue where they would cause loss of traction at 40mph+ or in rare circumstances when it snowed they would 1/100000 probability cause an explosion if you used a different air freshener in the car from the manufacturer (i.e. sticking a HP P410 in a ML350 G5 - original bug is it would occasionally get confused to which controller had was the boot device in certain circumstances). Would that be bug, feature and would it cost to fix? Firmware updates on the server fixed the issue.

Or alternatively you could get a Dell vehicle that does the upgrades for free... Works with it's own compatible Dell branded devices and controller cards. Now which one would you choose to spend money on.

We're a decent hardware / software business house here and it pains me to agree with one hardware manufacturer - however HP are effectively slitting their own throats with this decision. How many people will willingly learn HP hardware in their own labs for instance? Most if not all labs have support contracts in a development or testing environment. How many hobbyists will go on to learn their trade on HP kit? Will this result in less people being skilled on HP hardware? Yup in all instances. No one wants to be stuck with a dead platform.

It's all terrible and it's a horrible situation. Trying to make a quick buck when the risks are involved are massive. I am not a Dell fan but they're decisions, and heck even IBM are making better decisions at this point. If one supplier rules the roost it's bad for competition and business but this is the way it'll turn out if HP doesn't get it's butt in gear aside from niche suppliers like Supermicro.

[Davidoff]

Re: @Hapkido

"Today must be wannabe internet lawyer day...

It's shocking news that second hand goods may require further expenditure/upkeep after purchase."

Are you a troll or just really thick?

Had you read more carefully then you'd noticed that I didn't say the servers we bought were 2nd hand. We bought them brand new, but at the time we purchased them access to BIOS updates was free, and there was no reason to assume that this should change. And yes, these things do have legal implications, at least here in Europe, and yes, even for B2B.

[Muskiier]

As went IBM so will go Cisco and maybe HP

We know what happened with IBM hardware: I remember a customer back in the 90's with a newer IBM desktop that had those proprietary Microchannel slots in it. He wanted to run an external SCSI drive, and wanted an internal dialup modem (his serial ports were all used up for other applications), so he needed a couple of Microchannel cards. As I'm sure readers will recall, it was cheaper to buy another machine instead of the cards. Ironically, I think we got a Compaq. Same thing with Cisco. In spite of the fact that most Cisco hardware is pretty solid, once you factor what Cisco or a Cisco partner wants for the support and updates on older hardware it's often cheaper to just buy something else new. Perhaps the same will drive people away from HP. Having said all that, I think the price of HP hardware has come down so much over the last 5-ish years (their margins must be pretty tight) maybe picking up one of their "support packs" will be worthwhile. And, to be fair, the Proliant stuff is very reliable. But then, so is Dell - with BIOS updates and drivers available for free.

[zaphy42]

Funnily enough I've just had a phone call from HP informing me that we've let some of our Carepacks lapse (which we've done deliberately) and trying to put the frighteners on us to renew said Carepacks.

They're not in any way trying to bleed more money out of customers of course! ;)

Bye bye HP! Time to start looking elsewhere for future tin.