EVE Online erects mashed-up memorial to biggest space fight in history A single missed micropayment sparked off an epic interstellar battle on EVE Online that was so costly the developers have decided to erect a permanent monument to the conflict. EVE Online battle The Titanomachy monument (click to enlarge) CCP Games, the Icelandic firm behind the massively multiplayer online role-playing …
This is all player created. Not a scripted, repeatable event - a one off piece of history that players can not only see happening but actually participate in. I remember the first time I saw a Titan....it was enormous and it took our fleet to a new home out in null sec. EVE has a lot of flaws but it also has moments of genius I've never seen in any other game.
"This is all player created. Not a scripted, repeatable event - a one off piece of history that players can not only see happening but actually participate in."
While reading the article, not being someone who plays games like this (hell, I don't even play console games online - I just stick to offline play) I was thinking "meh, so what?"
But then I watched the video, and your comment above neatly sums up what I thought as it played out.
I'll still stick to playing games offline, though.
forgot to pay .. hmm maybe he was paid off .. happens so many times in eve ..
trust no one and always have 3 back up plans ..
I know a few people that have 11 alts on different sides and play information against itself
eve is so much like the real world greed back stabbing .. even the mods have alts ..you could say control from above ..
quote: "eve is so much like the real world greed back stabbing .. even the mods have alts ..you could say control from above .."
If you have a massive problem with behaviour like that in a game which you can easily avoid, I can only imagine how annoyed you must be at Real Life, which costs a lot more per month and is mandatory to participate in :(
Violent crime in America has been declining at an amazing, record-breaking pace since the widespread introduction of home console and PC video games.
You aren't wrong. But never forget - your "waste of time" could be some young man's escape from bloody neighborhood gang wars.
You are absolutely right, ofcourse. Bit of tongue in cheek on my part. I enjoy games as much as the next person. Some might call my time spend a waste also.
A virtual world spiraled out of control forcing players to join fractions and attacking other fractions.
I wonder what those people would do if they would meet in the streets wearing their war colors...
"I wonder what those people would do if they would meet in the streets wearing their war colors..."
Probably to your big surprise: Have a couple of cold ones at whichever conveniently positioned pub and reminisce about the dastardly deeds of high treason and other shenanigans people pull off on both sides. This in fact happens officially and regularly, as the leaders of the large coalitions tend to end up in the advisory player comittee that CCP runs to keep tabs on their player base.
The real Ärger is usually found in the smaller skirmishes and some bottomfeeding practices by "EVElitists". Engagements at this scale result from a careful political and diplomatic dance that plays out over months, if not years. When stuff blows up like this, it's reason for celebration for most people. It doesn't happen that often, even in EVE, and just to be a part in it is a thrill.
Actually if you check out Eve really closely you may well find that the warfare side is about 10% of the time spent in it. A lot of people happily run missions or get a group together to mine asteroids in the belts while drinking beer and chatting, then there is the trading, research, manufacturing....
It's not all pew pew pew.
I still have a binder pad that I used when I was a CEO of a small corp and its full of mining numbers, ore prices, blueprint buffing, costs and fees for this and that, fuel numbers for running our own space station, divvying up ISK earned, you name it.
Eve is one hell of a game that can be played from so many ways and angles. Untill you play it for more than a month you really can't imagine it. Makes WoW look like noughts and crosses.
Thats what I remember of EVE as well I wish I still played it but real life has kept me from it. I used to love the late night wormhole fights or doing incursions sadly none of the guys I used to play with still do it but I would love to get back to it eventually and start to build back up a small corp.
"""I wonder what those people would do if they would meet in the streets wearing their war colors..."""
Well THEY DO, every year, often in Iceland.
It is called EvE fanfest (http://fanfest.eveonline.com/en/default), where they HAVE FUN, drink beer, listen to satanic music (Metal and electro ;) ), and elect their consultative player parliament to represent them to CCP.
BLOODY AWFUL ;)
"I wonder what those people would do if they would meet in the streets wearing their war colors..."
From an interview with the two opposing fleet commanders Laz and Manny (http://crossingzebras.com/b-r-the-fc-perspective-transcription/)
"Manny: Laz is a very good dear friend of mine and so, I gave him a pretty good walloping in HED, he returned the favour in B-R. I can promise you that I’ll be trying to engineer or plot a situation where I can pay him back and no matter what we’re going to stay friends.
Laz: EVE does, you don’t have to hate your opponent in EVE. I mean, I know I get along with most of the people I’m fighting right now, and you don’t have to hate them, you don’t have to have some grudge – it can be fun."
Y'know that is so weird that it may be true.
I was playing an online game and generally expressing some dissatisfaction with some players when the guy I was talking to said 'you shouldn't do that: In real life they are a gang in LA and they could find out who you are'
My character (a gorgeous enchantress), replied. 'in real life I am a sixty year old bloke living in England, do you really think so?'
I think a lot of kids who would otherwise be on the streets are into their consoles. It probably isn't the best thing they could be doing, but its probably a ling way from the worst as well.
"No more so than playing chess for hours on end, or watching any TV show that is kind of cool now, but will be yesterday's news in a few years."
Well. it's lasted for over ten years now and it's still going, so don't hold your breath waiting for it to fold just yet.
...and $200 for each downvote - the trick is to stay in credit...
For example, Eadon wasn't voted out, he ran out of money even after mortgaging everything he had. The irony was, he posted everything from his XBox One Developer Edition and was paid for each comment, but even MS couldn't foot the bills he ran up... allegedly.
I'm not sure that would be a good idea. Rewarding upvotes over downvotes is likely merely to reinforce groupthink. Big Brother (the Orwellian one) and Stalin would be in favour of the scheme. One of the odd things about the WWW and search engines is that, rather than expose us to new ideas, they tend to provide confirming instances of what we already think. This is having a deleterious effect on politics (Tea Party and Taliban websites being obvious examples.)
There's only a real money comparison here because you can buy "plex" which give you game time. You can also sell those plex on the market to get in-game currency. The value is therefore based on how many plex you'd need to buy with real money in order to get the equivalent in-game cash to buy all of the ships that were destroyed.
But the main way of getting in-game cash is PvE content, like mining, industry, missions, ratting etc. So the real money comparison is kind-of silly when a large proportion of the asserts that were destroyed almost certainly came from this source, not real money.
Basically, the £300k thing is just marketing bollocks.
What do you do with your free time, Martin? Please enlighten us so we can tell you what a waste it is.
Honestly, you knew you were gonna get downed for it because it's a terribly perilous argument. False sense of achievement, seriously? Do their achievements become false when someone somewhere doesn't comprehend them? If I compose an awesome jazz piece, is it permanently irrelevant because my neighbor doesn't understand jazz? If I take pride in my hard-earned (and even harder-spent, given the expense of golf) handicap, is it all for naught just because a few folks reckon golf is mind-numbingly boring? I get that the immaterial nature of online gaming is somewhat difficult to get one's head around, but I could make the same argument about people who devote their lives to chess.
Or do you just not understand computer games? I can certainly respect that, although I fear you're probably asserting your opinion in the wrong place. I haven't touched an MMO in years, but this kinda makes me long for it again.
Whoa, you Wild Beast you. Just stirring the pot a bit.
I actually respect people who can balance a job and enjoy their hobby, whatever it is. Me? I have quite a range of hobbies that some people might call wasteful. But this sums up my general feeling:
From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25944837
"I keep thinking, I would love it," wrote LockeNCole on Reddit.
"I could build a little section of the universe for my own.
"Then I realise I have kids and would rather play with them."
Actually, no. There is achievement here - by the game design team.
While I am not an EVE player, I tend to follow how rules change in major online games out of "scientific interest". If memory serves me right initially in EVE, the Titan class of warship was predominantly a logistics choice. It could warp in, create a gate and allow you to warp in your fleet. The necessity to protect your "gate builders" used to force a rather conservative strategy onto major fleet engagements making long term players and alliances accumulate massive amounts of inactive assets.
That is bad for a game (even as addictive as EVE). Sooner or later people get bored.
So the developer tweaked the rules. However, IMHO, they overtweaked them too much in the opposite direction to a point where a conflict between major powers is guaranteed to degenerate into a mutual self-assured destruction with no winner (also bad for the game in the long term).
In EVE today Titans can go into battle and can carry a nearly impossible to deflect weapon (one that can fire only once every 10 minutes). This has changed the doctrine and strategy and stats quite clearly show it. The losses of Titans vs other capital ships in this engagement is vastly disproportionate 7:1. One can think of this as "nuclear" vs "pre-nuclear" conflict. Both sides now have a doomsday device and are lobbing it at each other at the maximum rate they can.
In any case, the ones who win here are the games developers - several major powers with a large number of assets which were dormant for a while now need to rebuild. That means a lot more time clocked on EVE as well as money flowing into EVE's coffers.
I dont think so as far as contemporary naval combat. There are some pirate online games out there where you "take your ship and loot and pillage the Spanish Main to develop a better ship/crew/etc." that support some kind of player vs. player combat, but I don't play them or pay enough attention to them to know if you can get 30-40 pirate ships on a side banging away at eachother.
"Does anything like this exist for contemporary terrestrial naval warfare (outside of military war colleges and think tanks)?"
Hopefully not. What has not been mentioned is a thing called "time dilation" which is a means whereby CCP tries to prevent the server crashing, remember all those ships, missile, drone etc. were on a single node.
Time dilation slows everything down and from comments made from people watching, the fight was running at about 2 fps. I was otherwise engaged making ISK so can't say whether it was as bad as that, though if it was it must have been like watching paint dry.
Have you thought how slowly the action unfolded in real naval battles in the days of sail? Until ships were extremely close things usually unfolded in very slow motion - and even then for much of the period reloading was so slow that broadsides could be something like an hour apart (it was rapid gunnery that led to RN superiority.)
One unnerving RN tactic was to approach the enemy in dead silence, with the gunners and crew lying between the guns (the safest place till action started). That could be half an hour or more which would indeed be as exciting to watch as paint drying - though no fun for the particpants.
Even the Battles of Jutland, Midway and the Coral Sea consisted of long periods of comparative boredom with short bursts of extremely noisy activity.
Then check out the "Battle of Daecheong".
Or the Royal Navy personnel captured by the Iranians in 2007.
Or the several hundred pirate attacks, mostly in the Indian Ocean, since 2000.
Naval warfare is currently pretty low-key, but it hasn't gone away.
Bugger all happened... it'S not exactly empire strikes back style spaceshit fighting. The ships aren't moving or doing anything. the losers who spend the waking lives playing in this game should try living in the real world...
... it's obvious what kind of person plays this - 40 year old virgins living in their mum's basement, they even built a ship that looks like a giant penis (top left . first minute)
Eve Online, the only game where during the world's biggest fight, you need a movie to watch, you can go out to get KFC and not be missed, you can alt-tab to Facebook and YouTube, you can play an actual interesting game on your Xbox, and still pretend like what you did in Eve mattered two damns.
Dull, dull dull game populated by the most obnoxious player base assembled in any one game.
Not quite true.
I used to love playing Silent Hunter III online however it could never be accused of being fast paced for long periods of time. I did in fact make an entire roast dinner for my family, eat it and when I got back to the game I had not been missed.
I am not sure what that says about the game, me or both....
@frank ly
I have issues. Some serious; some not so. I'm a really good looking bloke. Tall. Slender. Slightly long hair. I'm broke. Live from dole cheque to dole cheque (Austudy).
Now, I don't think I'm a sanctimonious prick, but I can be a prick. And I can't keep a girlfriend. I do have a girlfriend now, but if I can't sort out the issues - like, seriously, really hot chicks check me out all the bloody time, and I just can't help looking back! Damnit! Now, that's not such a serious issue, but what is, is... damnit, I take illicit drugs. No, not your needle, nose, pill popping, or drinking kind, just some other kind. And that is a serious problem.
And, back to the being a prick and all, I'm a bit worried that I might become a bigger prick.
I was just trying to think of the most offensive name that'd get by the censors/mods/staff.
This post has been deleted by its author
I was reading this thinking it could be fun. Up until the bit about it slowing down. I think the only way I could suspend disbelief would be if one had Gully Foyle-type enhancement. But it's too early to wrap my head around what it would be like if everyone had said enhancement. Need another coffee. And if they don't have anyway, which there's no mention of...
Do chicks play this game, or can I dismiss it as a case of 'whatever floats your scrote'?
"From postings I have seen on EVE Online 97% of the players are male, though about 40% of the characters are female."
I'm beginning to think you could write a book on it. But now I'm wondering if you could write it - and sell it - entirely within the game!
I'm also beginning to suspect suspension of disbelief is not what it's about? At least where the battle is concerned, i.e. it's about strategy. Can't figure out if the same applies to not joining in because you're off making money instead! Maybe that's playing the longer game...
"Can you imagine what the female game experience would be like if you had to advertise your real-world gender in game?"
Very, very unpleasant.
It seems to me that in games like this gender is becoming more and more about perceived gender roles rather than alignment with real world players.
"Very, very unpleasant."
When I played EVE at the beginning (for about 6 months) I played a female character - it was interesting how other people's language and general approach to you were different.
In my experience they were better, but then I played a 'no-nonsense', good sense of humour kind of girl and was very level headed. I didn't try and elicit a sympathy vote nor did I go out of my way to insult other blokes for being, well, blokes (i.e. ball-busting).
I learned two things from this:
i) If I was a girl with my present attitude, I'd probably do ok
ii) People will react to you based on how you are with them
I got bored when everything developed into corporations and politics - it's too much like real life for my tastes, but I enjoyed it whilst it lasted.
God damn! Almost missed this one! Spending a little too much time accelerated of late. Or maybe it really did take that long ;) So hard to tell in the Geoffrey...
I regret to say, however, that MJ has been demolished. And gone all anon. apparently. Jeez!
I see the original four part serialization in Galaxy is online (archive.org), links at bottom of Wikipedia article. Ben Reich's there too. Isn't the internet wonderful, despite the politicians et al?
I would have expected the monument to be a huge Excel spreadsheet, surrounded by DPS algorithms and asset lists exploding around it.
Sorry, I understand the social aspect and of course thats a great thing, but when you have to read through reams of calculations in order to play the thing... thats just not fun.
Eve is simply a business simulator with lasers.
Geez, guys, way to pile on about how much you hate a game that wasn't even marketed to you. This is a monumental moment of history for EVE and MMOs in general, enthralling thousands of players around the world, something that would have been a server-crashing event in the past and instead was executed flawlessly. It was EVE's Gettysburg. Let them have it, instead of taking the opportunity to let the world know how much you don't care but have to post anyway.
American Civil War nerds aren't far removed from EVE players (I wonder how much overlap there is), I wonder if there will be re-enactments and remixes of this battle in the future. The visuals are pretty spectacular, but sped up to full speed, it's just a ludicrous field of smoke and confusion and awe.
Now that they see the attention it brought, I wonder if they'd be inclined to designate a "World Cup" event one day a year, an epic battle for fans around the world to watch.
This post has been deleted by its author
There will always be profiteurs from war. Politicians and others.
"On March 18, 1914, on the very brink of the coming disaster, Philip Snowden, disease-wracked, crippled socialist labor leader rose in Commons to make a speech. When he had done, he had rocked the British Empire with his disclosures. For two years a young Quaker socialist named Walton Newbold had been tracing with infinite pains the tortuous trail of the international arms makers. And Philip Snowden had in his possession the fruits of that long quest when he rose to speak. One by one he pointed out cabinet ministers, members of the House, and named high-ranking officials in army and navy circles, persons of royal position, who were large holders of shares in Vickers and Armstrong, in John Brown and Beardmore, shipbuilders.
The profits of Vickers and Armstrong had been enormous, and the most powerful persons in the state and the church and the nobility had bought into them to share in the profits. Vickers had among its directors two dukes, two marquesses, and family members of fifty earls, fifteen baronets, and five knights, twenty-one naval officers, two naval government architects, and many journalists. Armstrong had even more — sixty earls or their wives, fifteen baronets, twenty knights, and twenty military or naval architects and officers, while there were thirteen members of the House of Commons on the directorates of Vickers, Armstrong, or John Brown. "It would be impossible," said Snowden, "to throw a handful of pebbles anywhere upon the opposition benches without hitting members interested in these arms firms."
Ministers, officers, technical experts moved out of the government, out of the cabinet, the navy, the army, the war office, the admiralty, into the employ of the munitions manufacturers.
Snowden quoted Lord Welby, head of the Civil Service, who only a few weeks before had denounced the arms conspirators. "We are in the hands of an organization of crooks," said Lord Welby. "They are politicians, generals, manufacturers of armaments and journalists. All of them are anxious for unlimited expenditure, and go on inventing scares to terrify the public and to terrify the Ministers of the Crown.""
Umm, I like the whole the "French were to blame" revisionist thing, but it does totally ignores the economic significance of the Baghdad Railway to us island people, and thus the ensuing jiggery pokery to prevent it by the established empires. (Serbs just being very pliable because of their location in the whole theme of things and totally subsettable to jiggery pokery).
This post has been deleted by its author
Eve appeals to a particular kind of player, and is very successful at what it does.
If however you like immersion, there are better games. If, instead of your spaceship being your avatar, you would rather control a first person human avatar that can get up and walk around your spaceship, you might prefer Star Citizen.
I played from 2006 to 2010 and now my Domi and other ships all sit collecting dust in a station somewhere.
NYCHMS!
I remember one time my little 5 man corp got wardecced over our POS (not what you think it means). We had next to zero fighting experience but we managed to get our POS down while under fire and took out two of the attacking corps battleships with zero losses on our side. All done with no smack talk and no hard feelings. I think they underestimated our "Well what the hell?!" tactics.
Took about 4 hours in all. I couldn't sleep that night, found out the next day that none of the other guys in the corp could either. Was a rush!
Hmmm am I tempted to go back in...
The short version is:
Because there is the chance of loss (if something explodes, it's gone. You have to build or buy a new one. Loss is meaningful in eve. You don't just respawn and have to run back to your corpse.), and you're playing against real people, there's adrenaline flowing.
I remember when my corp decided to leave our wormhole, Real life got in the way and we were not active enough to stay and make it work so we evacuated our POS, it was a several day effort for 3 or 4 of us scanning for low or high sec wormhole exits all while trying not to get in a fight and blown up. We did have some hairy moments trying to get the POS out but it was also exciting. We did manage to get everything out from months of being in there with minimal loss but when we finally took down the tower and had to hide out to get it out it was down right frightening.
>I've no idea how it really works but I am choosing to picture this battle as being like something from an Iain M. Banks novel
That's how it comes across to me. Banks always fleshed out his 'Culture' universe with alliances, hierarchies (Matter), political shenanigans (Look To Windward), mercenaries (Consider Phlebas), dirty tricks and lots and lots of big feck-off spaceships (Excession). I won't knock the complexity of Eve, but my personal taste in gaming is usually a quick bout of shooting an alien (or a homephobic American teenager) in the face - though the only game I played in 2013 was 'Worms'.
Having said that, 'Halo' and 'Mass Effect' also remind me of Banks. RIP.
WOW, yeah i remember playing EVE a few years back, was fun, trying to out run or outsmart the null sec guys, I mean what's the point in going in 0.3 space if you don't expect to get blown to bits...
I have a ship or 2 parked somewhere.. I do remember a few stories like this one lets just say
In game 3 million ISK PLEX's you don't tend to transport on a shuttle... Yeah still think that one was staged as a big "screw you" to his old corp...
I may get back into it, not sure..
"I mean what's the point in going in 0.3 space if you don't expect to get blown to bits..."
Research.
High sec research facilities always had months-long queues back when I played the game, so I did all my research in Aunenen, which was perma-camped and therefore had no research queues at all because only a complete idiot would risk taking something as valuable as a blueprint original into the system.
Never got caught. Had to log off after returning to hisec one time because my hands were shaking too much but I had an interceptor min-maxed to run away from things and it did what I designed it to do.
While I appreciate the technical achievements of this game, and it looks lovely graphically, its boring as fuck to play and some of the players really do fit the aforementioned basement dwelling nerds description. My only experience of the game follows.....
"sweet, im in",
" whats this, a fucking spreadsheet?"
"screw that, lets just launch the cunt.."
"oooh, nice graphics",
"hmmm, controls are a bit confusing and not overly conjusive to enjoyable play, but hayho",
"aha, a jumpgate type thingy, away we go...",
"Fuck, those bastards in those big ships are shooting me whilst insulting me in the chat"
"im dead, what a pile of wank"
repeat the above 10 times, then realise what a load of boring, pointless crap the whole thing is.
so yeah, a game with far to many stats, a ship that explodes if a single laser hits it and a load of sad little pricks getting a hard on shooting their mega lasers at a noob.
Now i know why i dont play online games much, at least in WOW i could strip off and dance in the middle of a raid to annoy the nerds who take an imaginary world far too seriously.
I can just imagine you trying to make a cup of tea...
Mickey: "Whats this shiney thing?"
Mickey's Mom: "A kettle, it boils water"
Mickey: "Boil! Thats a pain in the arse. Why isn't it working?"
Mickey's Mom: "You have to put water in it,....
Mickey: " fuck that I'm bored "
Mickey's Mom: " ... plug it in,... "
Mickey: " Boring! "
Mickey's Mom: " ... and turn it on"
Mickey: " I'm always turned on!"
Mickey's Mom: " then wait until it boils"
Mickey: "Fuck that, I wait for nothing! Tea bag, cup, sorted!"
Mickey: "What's this shit! Tastes like piss water. All tea drinkers are puffs!"
By my calculations $330,000 divided by 7548 players comes out at an average $43.72 per person. Come on guys, call that warfare?
Anyone know how much the missed payment was for? In real dollars?
Let's face it, it's exactly the kind of thing people have been spending all that time building BFO spaceships for.
You should be aware:
There was likely no real money involved with this battle. While it's kind of possible to 'buy' currency, it's
A: Not direct.
B: Not really done by the people who fly ships on this scale.
All in game currency is earned in game.The only way to 'buy' it, is by buying game time, and selling it to another player.
Well it looks like the battle has affected the asteroid belts. I went to my usual one on Friday and the 20+ belts had been stripped clean of all the minerals. And I have never seen that before on over seven years playing EVE.
So us industrialists can look forward to some inflated prices and general shortages.
CCP have said that although they are going to make the wrecks unsalvagable they will take a percentage of the wreckage and spread it about all areas of EVE so that people will be able to get something back.
I have tried Eve on three separate occasions and every time, just the tutorial bored me to tears, however...
After seeing this over the weekend, I had to get in there and try it again and I'm pleased to report everything is MUCH better these days. Solid tutorials, a context-driven interface that actually seems to work, and plenty of advice on what to do and where to go. I actually put four hours in, which is three hours and forty minutes more than ever before.
I love reading about Eve and watching it more than playing. Get to a certain level and you cant be a lone wolf for missions etc unless you spend a long time getting better etc. So you join a corporation and if lucky its run by/made up of decent normal people, but if you get the OCD types then it just becomes a chore and more like work than a game. I got pestered to always be available on skype, to login every day at specific times etc. If I didnt, then I got so much grief and then I found i was not in the corporation! put me off the game and never logged back in.
It wasn't a missed micro-payment.
It was a missed payment of in game currency. Not real money. Which is a fairly major difference. When you get to the level that these people are at in game, you're rarely spending any of your own money, even for game time.
It's not possible to directly buy currency with real money, unless you're willing to break the EULA and get banned.
What is possible is:
A: Buy a game time code from CCP. This is known as a PLEX (pilot licence extension). This can be traded in for 30 days of game time. It's less cost effective than buying a subscription, but leads to...
B: Convert the code into an item within EVE Online. At this point, it can be traded to another player, for a quantity of in game currency (ISK) It's also possible for it to be blown up, if you're foolish enough to put it in the hold of your space ship.
C: That player can then trade it in for game time, and not have to pay for the game.
While EVE does have micro-transactions, these are for purely cosmetic items. Which can be traded on the market for ISK.
An image of some famous sci-fi ships (including some in Eve) - good resolution.
http://www.chartgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/size_comparison___science_fiction_spaceships_by_dirkloechel-d6lfgdf.jpg
The battle as recounted by insiders:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/the-bloodbath-of-b-r5rb/
And no, I do not play subscription games and never will.
I played it for years.
There are some very clever ideas... such as mentioned in the article, you cannot buy your way to the top.
Ok.. rephrase, you cannot start a new character and buy your way to the top.
The 1st issue with the game is that it becomes very repetitive, very quickly.
The 2nd issue is that it requires the devotion of time, you cannot start a new character now and work your way to the top, simply because those who have been playing for 11 years since it started are so far advanced that you can never catch them.
Also to achieve anything significant requires a vast investment of time, the senior people in the game play for 14-18 hours a day, it's worse than a job.
The Register 
Biting the hand that feeds IT
Copyright. All rights reserved © 1998–2024
