back to article iPhone slips in Europe as Windows Phone claims OVER 10% market share

Apple's iPhones are losing ground in Europe as consumers increasingly opt for Android and Windows Phone handsets, according to researchers. Analysts with Kantar Worldpanel ComTech found that over the third quarter of this year, Apple saw its share of the market in Germany, France, and the UK decline over the same period in …


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  1. Lusty


    So Apple are selling fewer iPhones than before then? No? Aaah so market share percentage is a pointless measure of success then....glad you kept us in the loop :)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lolz

      The point is that Apple are rapidly headed to #3 in the market - Window Phone is clearly on target to be the #2 OS Phone OS generally and #1 Phone OS in the enterprise (largely by replacing the remains of Blackberry)....

      If Microsoft get their planned OS and Store unification right in Q1 2015 (Project 'Threshold'), then I can see a possibility that they might even make it to #1 Phone OS overall....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lolz

        Yep, Blackberry are dead:

        "BlackBerry was outsold by Windows Phone handsets in every market reported by Kantar, despite having launched its Z30 handset in September to add to its portfolio"

      2. SnakeChisler

        Re: Lolz

        You are joking aren't you?

        MS / Nokia are selling a lot of units because they are very heavily subsidized, at some stage their going to have to compete and at that point we can take market share sales figures at face value.

        The people I know who have windows phones use it for a bit of browsing and to read their e-mail and not much else there also of the older generation who have no interest in apps and very little brand loyalty.

        Whats worse is in my sons age group (teens) and among his friends I have yet to see anyone with a Windows phone.

        1. JDX Gold badge

          re:MS / Nokia are selling a lot of units because they are very heavily subsidized

          Really? How much does an Android phone with a 1GHz CPU and 512Mb RAM sell for? Considerably more than £150?

          1. Richard Plinston

            Re: re:MS / Nokia are selling a lot of units because they are very heavily subsidized

            > How much does ...

            That is not particularly relevant. Microsoft gave Nokia at least $1billion a year and yet Nokia still showed a loss. It only showed a profit in one quarter when it sold its headquarters and took that in as revenue.

            It was selling many of its phones at below cost. An analysis claimed that the price of many devices needed to be raised by 15% for the company to break even.

    2. Greg J Preece

      Re: Lolz

      And I'm sure if Apple had 70% of the market their supporters would be crowing about it, so...

      And yes, if it's an indicator of trends and future sales, then it certainly is a measure of success.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lolz

      It's not pointless, as long as you understand what it means.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lolz

      So would you rather sell millions of high end phones - provide great support and build a loyal user base (while making healthy profits on the device and then on the media / apps OR sell more phones (many) at little or no profit and no loyalty to any particular brand and Google take all the profit from selling media etc.

    5. KiwiAndy

      Re: Lolz

      A pointless measure? 0% smartphone market share would be dire for Apple considering how much the company depends on the iPhone for its existence, so a trend towards the lower end of the market share dial would certainly be a valid measure of success or otherwise. So, is there a trend in that direction?

      Of course, Apple supporters can be buoyed by the huge profits the iDevice maker reaps despite its dwindling market share - unless of course, its profitability is also trending downward. Oh, it is? Oops...

      The Cupertino Colossus would be well advised to get its "next big thing" out the door, I think.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lolz

        Their share may have dropped because the market has expanded significantly but mainly at the low (no profit) end of the market. Basically every phone these days is a smartphone. If you looked at Apple's share of the high end market that would be more interesting or look at the total value of their shipments.

        1. Nate Amsden Silver badge

          Re: Lolz

          exactly - these numbers are coming from a market space that Apple doesn't even bother to compete in. Apple's CEO has specifically said they are not going after that market. They are perfectly happy where they are at..rolling in more cash than most anyone else combined in the mobile space.

          If apple ever does feel threatened they can easily drop the prices as a last resort, their cash stockpile is so big they can sustain just about anything for the next 10-20 years.

          (I say this as a WebOS user -- still waiting for galaxy note 3 64GB to show it's face before I make the jump to android.)

          1. Dave 126 Silver badge

            Re: Lolz

            The article didn't mention the size of the market, thus limiting the inferences that can be drawn from market share. It is plausible that more smartphones have been sold than ever before, and it is plausible that people who have not bought a smartphone before are more likely to buy a less expensive model... but without the numbers that is just conjecture.

      2. El_Fev

        Re: Lolz

        What drugs are you on, they are making more money than ever before !

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lolz

      @Lusty - "So Apple are selling fewer iPhones than before then? No? Aaah so market share percentage is a pointless measure of success then"

      That's what Crackberry addicts said a couple of years ago...

      1. ThomH

        Re: Lolz

        I think the Apple versus Microsoft figure is relevant here because there's no real landfill Windows Phone category. In the way that it's designed Windows Phone is much more similar to iOS than Android in that you can't chuck it onto three-year old hardware with a vendor-specific shell — Android isn't just about the blockbusting flagships — so it would seem likely that Microsoft is preparing to beat Apple at its own game.

        If I were Apple? It's time for serious price cuts to the 5C. It needs to be free on all but the stingiest of contract. It's probably time to accept that the market seems to prefer dramatically bigger screens, too.

        1. Richard Plinston

          Re: Lolz

          > there's no real landfill Windows Phone category.

          Windows Mobile 6.x phones were dead-ended by its replacement WP7 being completely incompatible in hardware and software.

          Windows Phone 7 phones were dead-ended by its replacement WP8 being completely incompatible in hardware and software.

          Next will be the Windows Phone 8 phones (and Surface RT/2 tablets) when Microsoft dumps both to replace them with a 'converged product' that is incompatible with either.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Lolz

            WP8 ran WP7 apps.

            The only reason WP8 needed new hardware was the requirement of two CPU cores and more RAM due to the switchover from WinCE to full Windows kernel.

            Or should they have made a WP8 for those old phones and had it run like crap as low end Android phones do?

          2. Matt_payne666

            Re: Lolz

            Win 6x is far from dead... its still the OS of choice for handheld point of sale terminal....

            the hardware inside win phone8 and RT devices is no less powerful than current mid to high end android... so I expect ti to run the new converged os comfortably...

            as for making hardware obsolete... apple cuts features from each out going model too... pre iphoone 3? door stop... 3 series... no updates for years... 4 - os is hobbled compared to 4s, probably wont support ios8...

            all hardware reaches its EOL sooner or later... apple is no exception....

            1. Richard Plinston

              Re: Lolz

              > Win 6x is far from dead... its still the OS of choice for handheld point of sale terminal....

              While both WM6.x and some POS terminals may be based on CE (as is other embedded stuff), that doesn't make the POS terminals run WM6.x.

              > [iPhone] 4 - os is hobbled compared to 4s, probably wont support ios8

              The iPhone 3 is 5 1/2 years old. iPhone 4 is 3 1/2 years and runs the latest iOS 7 (minus what requires hardware it doesn't have).

              Some may have bought a WP 7 just over a year ago and all they got as 'updates', and maybe all they will ever get, was twice as many colours on the start screen.

              1. Matt_payne666

                Re: Lolz

                Much like then I bought my MacBook pro SD - nearly £2k and made obsolete less than a year later with the Intel releases....

                If you male a major hardware change you need to draw a line... this will hurt a certain percentage of people...

              2. big_D Silver badge

                Re: Lolz @Richard Plinston

                On the other hand, my 2004 windows laptop is running Windows 8, my 2007 iMac can't run Mountain Lion, let alone Mavericks. Swings and roundabouts.

          3. cambsukguy

            Re: Lolz

            Landfill means discarding the device before it reaches the hardware's end-of-life.

            WP7 phones may, just possibly, be getting discarded (or more likely handed down) because of WP8, but I doubt it; a Lumia 800 is still a very nice phone - according to the person I bought one for.

            WP8 phones will be supported for a considerable time beyond the last sale of a WP8 device.

            People complain about XP support ending but the last XP machine must have been sold a ridiculous time ago, embedded systems notwithstanding. So I have no worries about support and even improvements to WP8 (and even RT) for at least the life of any phone I buy. TBH, although a fancy update is imminent (already available from MS but not as a Nokia OTA), few if any of the changes listed are a big deal; I am mostly interested in Nokia's specific camera improvements to an already superior experience.

          4. JDX Gold badge

            @Richard Plinston re:there's no real landfill Windows Phone category.

            Valid points but does it really matter if the phone OS can be upgraded? Before you answer, consider what % of android phones ever receive an OS upgrade to a new major version.

        2. Lusty

          Re: Lolz

          "If I were Apple? It's time for serious price cuts to the 5C"

          Then thank goodness you are not Apple, since you don't understand their business at all. What people often seem to ignore is that computers and other technology really has not gotten cheaper over the last decade, it's actually quality dropping causing price cuts. Look at the MacBook range, cost is similar to a decent PC a decade ago and quality is excelent with attention to engineering where it counts (battery life a good example). Other vendors have laptops of this quality and they all cost similar. Now look at your "free" android phone and tell me if it's as good as a top end Samsung from last year. It's not, it's a worse phone in every respect and yet you're expecting Apple to sell last years quality model for less just because they have a better one out. Apple really don't need the business that badly, and the only way they would go bankrupt is if they race to the bottom with HTC etc. or if product quality and innovation stop - which is what killed RIM rather than price since if you'll recall RIM did have cheap crappy phones.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lolz

        Android lovers big up market share but it's pretty easy to sell cheap / free. A few years ago the volume of the phone market was in cheap, simple (candy bar) phones. Now every phone is a smartphone (of sorts) so as people upgrade they get these cheap phones by default but probably still just use them as phone + text.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Lolz

        So people say the share is dropping yet when you look at the revenue on apps and web usage iDevices are much higher. Suspect many of these Android / Windows phones are basically £50-100 candy bar replacements that are text + calls mainly and many users probably do not know nor care they are Android etc.

    7. LarsG

      How many times does this story

      How many times does this story have to be regurgitated?

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Lolz

      Once iphone drops below 10% market share, I expect app developers will begin to prioritise iOS lower than Android/WinPho. After that, iOS is dead in the water.

      As app sales/in game purchases etc are such a high percentage of apples income, once they become a nice to have rather than a must have platform for an App to be on, apple will be screwed.

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: Lolz

        > Once iphone drops below 10% market share, I expect app developers will begin to prioritise iOS lower than Android/WinPho.

        Developers target the numbers of phones that are in use, not just the ones that are sold today. The total sales of iPhone since the start of 2011 is around 320 million. The total of all WP8 phone sales seems to be less than 30million.

        iPhone's app market is 10 times that of WP8, it will take several years before WP8 could sell enough to get close to that, even if Apple never sold another phone. It is likely that the converged WP8 + RT OS (in 2015) will replace both with something, yet again, incompatible with either, restarting the counter again.

        1. JDX Gold badge

          Re: Lolz

          Developers target the ecosystems based on their overall value, not the number of devices. If Apple users spend far more on apps than Android/WP users, iOS will still get a lot of attention.

          You also have to remember apps includes tablets too, and iOS has much bigger share in that market (for now).

      2. sebbie

        Re: Lolz

        Developers are looking after income from their apps, not sold devices nor market share. Average iThing user is much more likely to spend money on AppStore than Android or WinPho user. Most of developers report approx. 80% of revenue from iOS, 20% from Android and single sales on WindowsPhone. If you are developer that wants to make money iOS is no brainer choice. When that's estabilished you can look after Android (or WinPho if you're really bored).

  2. Greg J Preece

    Strange how people still vigorously deny that Windows Phone is getting anywhere, given that at this rate it has a chance of taking the #2 spot from Apple.

    1. Richard Plinston

      > a chance of taking the #2 spot from Apple.

      While in some markets in Europe WP may have around 10%, worldwide it is still at the 4% mark, and this is with the cheap end of the market and subsidized by Microsoft with $1billion/year plus marketing help.

      1. TheVogon

        "While in some markets in Europe WP may have around 10%, worldwide it is still at the 4% mark,"

        Windows Phone is growing rapidly pretty much everywhere - and is a also at over 10% in much of South America for instance...

        "and this is with the cheap end of the market and subsidized by Microsoft with $1billion/year plus marketing help."

        It doesn't really matter how they get there - they are clearly succeeding....competitors like Google, Samsung and Apple spend similar amounts on advertising too...And of course the Android market is also profitable for both Microsoft and Nokia due to their licensing agreements.

      2. cambsukguy

        And Samsung are going to spend $14 billion a year according to El Reg, seems like a billion is chump change.

        They can even afford Kevin Bacon via EE as an on-going proposition, MS got Jessica Alba for five minutes, still worth it though.

    2. Charles Manning

      MS rate == 0

      "at this rate it"

      MS has been doing smart phones for twice as long as Apple and Google. Over that time they have not really shown any serious market share.

      In the beginning, MS were third place to Nokia and Blackberry. Now they're third place to Google and Apple.

      Not much change in 12 years...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: MS rate == 0

        In 2007 Windows Mobile had 42% marketshare in the US.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward


    4. big_D Silver badge


      But WP just doesn't have the number of available app, there is no way it can succeed, don't you read the blogosphere?

      Just like ChromeOS is beating Windows, because of all those apps, oh, wait.. Bloody hypocrites! :-P

  3. Dan 55 Silver badge

    Have Apple managed to fragment the iPhone?

    Buying a 5C now is essentially the same as buying a 5 when the 5S is the latest model. Is there any data comparing the incomes of people who bought the 4S when the 5 was the latest model, or the 4 when the 4S was the latest model?

    The incomes difference between the two kinds of market are probably similar (people going for the expensive bling vs. people going for the cheapest bling), but the 5C is considered different to the 5 by analysts, probably confirming everybody's suspicions of analysts.

    1. DiViDeD

      Re: Have Apple managed to fragment the iPhone?

      Income levels, eh? 5C is for the 'top people' eh?

      As anyone who has ever worked in sewage reclamation will tell you:

      "It's not just cream that rises to the top"

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple are still selling a load more phones. Market share drops because the overall volume has increased (mostly at the low end) - every phone these days is a smart phone. Apple sell 1000 phones in a market of 2000 and have 50% market share - fast forward and Apple sell 3000 phones in a market of 12000 phones and their market share is 25% despite them selling 3x more phones.

    Would be interesting to see market share by VALUE or by PROFIT. Android and Windows Phone may sell a lot of £50-150 phones at little or no profit while Apple sell premium phones at £500. It's a bit like trying to compare sales of Porsche to sales of Vauxhall and Ford.

    1. KiwiAndy

      @AC"Would be interesting to see market share by VALUE or by PROFIT"

      If it showed profit or value, it wouldn't be market share though. Market share is defined as a percentage of unit sales relative to the total of the market place.

      Apple had traditionally "owned" the profitability crown in the smartphone market, but that has passed to Samsung now. Whether Apple can recover that position from its Korean rival is probably too soon to say for sure. But its profitability is trending downward, driven by lower ASPs of all the iPhone models. Samsung's profitability on the other hand is trending upward.

      I don't think Samsung is concerned that its financial results are achieved from a mix of high, middle and low end devices. While the higher end of the the market (primarily Western nations) is showing signs of approaching maturity, the burgeoning middle and lower ends are exhibiting massive growth still.

      1. El_Fev

        @KiwiAndy errrr in terms of smartphone mobiles , Apple makes more profit that all the others combined, since when did Samsungs mobile divion make more than Apples??

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Apple had traditionally "owned" the profitability crown in the smartphone market, but that has passed to Samsung now.

        (citation needed)

        Where has it been shown that Samsung's profit generated on the "smartphone" lines exceeds Apple's by any metric? Samsung sell a shitload of landfill Android, as well as their premium product, so I think it highly unlikely that Samsung "own the profitability crown". However, I am willing to be convinced ...

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Samsung's margins

          on things like TV, and its white goods (Washing machines etc) are nowhere near that of its phones.

          Thus their lower margin drags down the overall margin of the whole company.

          There might even be a case for saying that their Phone biz is subsidising their other product divisions.

          As for build quality, my other half had a Galaxy 5 for about a week. She dropped it from about 3ft in height and it is useless as a phone now. No signs of external damage but it won't sync with a network no matter what SIM is put in it.

          She's not impressed one little bit and is especially miffed at me because I persuaded her to have one over an iphone. Guess what it is in an early christmas pressie from me? We are trying to get the Galaxy replaced under insurance but that might take a few weeks.

      3. blondie101

        What a crap. Market share CAN be about units, it MUST not. For example in the server market, market share is normally measured in income not units. Otherwise is was impossible for MS to have a (out of my head) share of about 30 ~50% while (nearly) all big clouds are running Linux only. Linux server market share is exclusively about ENTERPRISE Linux distros. For the proprietary unices the (unit) market share is almost not measurable, but in income they still count (just like mainframe).

        If market share was about income instead of units Apple is probably on top, followed by Samsung. Android is invissible and Google's mobile revenue is (black?) magic.

    2. localzuk Silver badge

      In terms of market growth, Apple aren't doing well then. If a market doubles in size, and a company's sales only increase by 20% then they're failing to grow with the market. Their investors will not be happy.

    3. big_D Silver badge

      By Profit?

      So you want to see who is ripping their customers off the most?

  5. smartypants

    Apple rested on its laurels for too long...

    They ought to have had a range of phones by now, rather than just two offering the same size screen for not that different a price.

    Apple happily provide a range of screen sizes for other types of device, but their phone range is suffering from having a larger screen option, and they seem badly positioned to capitalise on emerging markets which demand better value.

    I would imagine that they're beavering away right now on some new options which they hope will address the problems, but in the meantime, the competition is establishing itself now, and with Android now mature and arguably a better overall experience, it's going to be a bit of an uphill struggle for Apple, though even if their market share erodes, it's a growing market, and they are still well placed to make more money on everything they sell., so I won't be shedding any tears!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Apple rested on its laurels for too long...

      Android goes with larger screens as it's some way to differentiate and also because they need much larger batteries so the large screen hides the huge battery.

      1. steveking1000

        Re: Apple rested on its laurels for too long...

        Re Android needing bigger screens to hide the battery. Some of us think a large screen is a better use of space than having a tiny screen stuck onto an angular brick with all the style of a stamp in the middle of an envelope. YMMV, but I can't see the point of attaching people's preferences.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How long can Apple keep dictating terms?

    With market share decreasing and the 5S and especially the 5C not giving the expected results it would be interesting to see how long Apple can keep its stranglehold on the market.

    Apple was able to dictate policies, price plans and promotions to the shops based on its market presence but with that faltering it may not be too long before one of the network providers calls Apple's bluff and refuse to meet Apple's demands.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How long can Apple keep dictating terms?

      MtM (tm) - is that you Matt?

      What "stranglehold" do they have? They have never had one, and they don't have one now.

      Apple are by far the premier brand which everyone else is trying to emulate. Apple make a shitload of money, which is the whole point of business I might add, and it seems that everything else is bullshit sophistry by people with opinions and a need for column inches.

    2. cambsukguy

      Re: How long can Apple keep dictating terms?

      Apple don't have a stranglehold on the market, they may have more power in the USA because iPhone is a synonym for smartphone there but I doubt it anywhere else. Americans are conservative folks in general, changing to a new system (being different by having a not-iPhone is a scary departure from the norm, no doubt EMOs and goths have Androids or WPs because they are already 'weirdos')

      (Americans say Tylenol instead of Acetaminophen/paracetamol, Advil instead of Ibuprofen and Aleve instead of Naproxen - they do say Aspirin instead of Beyer though, only took 100 years!).

  7. Efros

    I'd like to think

    That what we're seeing is a move to "I'm not paying that sort of money for a F#@*ing phone".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I'd like to think

      Except Apple are selling more iPhones than ever - so that does not really fit? Android makers are just jumping over each other to sell more for less = race to the bottom and eventually zero profits. As a company would you want to sell 1000 phones and make £150 each (plus ongoing app and media revenue) or 5000 phones and make £5 each (and hand future revenue over to Google)?

      How about a comparison between volume, revenue and profit shares. Turnover is vanity - profit is sanity?

      1. Richard Plinston

        Re: I'd like to think

        > (and hand future revenue over to Google)?

        Google does not make revenue at the expense of phone makers. Google's revenue is from things that phone makers generally do not do. If they did want to do that, such as send advertising, or search, or maps, then they can do so without using Google at all.

        > profit is sanity?

        Then making Windows Phones is insane. Nokia are running at a loss, in spite of huge subsidies from Microsoft. I doubt that other WP makers made much if any at all.

      2. KiwiAndy

        Re: I'd like to think

        @AC "Except Apple are selling more iPhones than ever - so that does not really fit?"

        You should probably start paying attention to what's actually happening rather than what you want to happen. Apple's growth rate has dropped significantly compared to what it was only 12 months ago. So it's not simply about Apple's growth versus a flotilla of low profit handsets. It's not meeting its own high standards.

        And the company's profitability is also dropping.

        Might I respectfully suggest that you have a look at Apple's own quarterly results for the last four quarters, especially the Average Selling Price, net profit and growth numbers. While you might be disinclined to accept my word for the above, it would be hard to argue against Apple's own financial filings and their conference calls with the post-report financial media.

        1. El_Fev

          Re: I'd like to think

          Apple make more money than anyone else from Smartphones, no one even comes close, and while the others all have to compete with the same operating system, apple has its users all to itself.

          I have never seen so much utter rubbish posted in my life lol

          1. KiwiAndy

            Re: I'd like to think

            "Apple make more money than anyone else from Smartphones, no one even comes close, and while the others all have to compete with the same operating system, apple has its users all to itself.

            I have never seen so much utter rubbish posted in my life lol"

            Perhaps you've been misled by fellow Apple stalwarts, or you just prefer being in denial, but a simple search of the interwebs would show that you're mistaken in your "no one even comes close" belief in Apple's supremacy in profitability. No company remains top dog forever, so your doggedly Apple-centric view, while charming, is perhaps an example of the "so much utter rubbish posted" you refer to?


  8. ThomH

    Big in Japan! Big in Japan!

    In Japan, where the 5S is offered universally free on a contract, Apple captured 76% of the market during the post-launch lustre month of October (source: ).

    So regardless of the other analyses, I think it's probably the case that a huge number of people would take the Apple phone if it were a cost effective option — the problem isn't necessarily the user interface or the walled garden or even the size (though Japanese people seem to like small things much more than, say, Americans).

    On the plus side, that means that Apple has a way out if it wants to take it. I guess the question is at what tipping point does a low-cost mass-market device become more profitable than a high-cost niche device? If the market decline worldwide continues and starts to bite Apple's bottom line, will it be smart enough to make the leap in time?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Big in Japan! Big in Japan!

      The phones are not offered free on contract. The carrier loans you the cost of a very expensive device and charges you a high monthly fee to repay that loan. Here in the UK we have competitive SIM only deals that expose the real cost. However in the USA and some other markets, its largely monopoly-tied and carriers continue to promote the old contract model despite the fact that its more profitable for the premium handset makers than the carriers themselves. Apple, and Samsung to some degree, rely on this old style contract. It remains to be seen how long this business model continues.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What's so special about an iPhone now?

    You can get the same (or even better) features from cheaper phones.

    Apple can't stay on the iPhone bandwagon for long, they new something new to set itself above the competition.

    Re-badging it to iPhone 6, 6S, 6C, 6GS, or whatever is next won't help.

    If they want more market share then they will have to drop the price.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "If they want more market share then they will have to drop the price."

      They don't so they won't.

      Apple are in business to make profit, and they are fabulously successful at it.

      Market share of a nebulously defined market i what wankers are concerned about, not the executive board of Apple.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Same or better features - really.

      64 bit - no.

      Fingerprint sensor - no.

      Apple do not need more market share - they are selling more and more phones and building a loyal user base and making real profits for their app developers whereas Android / Windows Phone makers are going cheap for the volume 'today'.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows Phone vs. iPhone

    First, a bit of background:

    I like Apple's products. I use a 17" MBP daily. I have a Mac mini as an iTunes media server. I have an iPad Air and both an AT&T and Verizon iPhone 5 (one is my personal line and the other is for a consulting job on the side). My wife has an iPad 4 and an AT&T iPhone 5. I also have some Android tablets and three Android phones. I prefer iOS to Android but I could use Android devices as my primary phone and tablet if it weren't for the investment I have in iOS apps.

    I used to have a Sprint Mogul (WM6). I had switched to WB6 after I used an iPAQ for a while, so I had software that would run on WM6 and carrying a WM6 phone vs. a feature phone and iPAQ made sense.

    I had a 60GB iPod and a lot of songs on my iTunes server. Sprint's 3G (EVDO) was slow so I decided to give AT&T and the iPhone 3G a chance. I liked the UI and found a lot of useful software. I walked away from WM6 without looking back. It also helped that WM6 was dying at the time.

    I bought an iPad when the iPad 2 was released. I got one with cellular data. My existing iPhone apps could run on the iPad. All was good. iPad versions of most of the apps were released. That was even better. Over time I upgraded my iPad, passing my old one to my wife and selling my wife's old iPad, making upgrading inexpensive.

    So at this point I'm well invested in the Apple ecosystem.

    A couple of months ago a friend that also has an iPhone and iPad said he was thinking of jumping ship for the Lumia 1020 and wanted to know what I thought. I told him I had played around with a WP7-based phone and found it clunky, but hadn't tried WP8. I did tell him that I didn't like Windows 8 at all, so I was skeptical about WP8.

    Still, I like to experiment and play with new tech so when I saw the Lumia 520 for $60 recently I bought one. I had upgraded from a BB Bold to a BB Z10 at my primary employer. I didn't really care for the pre-BB10 UI, but it worked and I wanted to try BB10. I ended up hating the UI. I moved the SIM over to the Lumia 520 and used it for a week.

    I've found that I actually like WP8. There's a distinct lack of apps. There are some things about the UI that I still find a little awkward, but nothing that more time getting acclimated probably wouldn't fix. The issue with a lack of apps may improve as WP8 market share increases.


    I'm a long-time iOS user with a lot of investment in the Apple ecosystem and wouldn't be upset if I had to switch to WP8.

    1. Babbit55

      Re: Windows Phone vs. iPhone

      I have to admit I am the same, having used Android now since like 2009 and having used a host of devices and having a Nexus 7, my HTC bit the dust and I only have about 6 months left on my contract so I decided to buy a 520 outright and get a cheaper contract on renewal or if I hated Win8 go back to android however even with my investment I have to admit I really like the 520 and I am even considering upgrading to the 920 come renewal!

      All in all I am impressed with the windows phone offerings it is a very smooth OS though it could do with a few more apps

  11. Charlie Clark Silver badge

    Old news poorly reported

    As the article contains no link I can only guess that it refers to this from 4th November but there are clear errors in detail: it is not 10 % in Europe but 10 % in UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain. except this has been averaged as Germany is quoted in the same report as being at 8.5%. The numbers are survey based so variance to real sale or shipped numbers are be expected. Still, colour me sceptical as the numbers are in now way borne out by what I see around me in commuterland where it is a pretty even IOS / Samsung split. They also don't correlate with reports on mobile internet use. And the question is: if sales are so good for Nokia's Lumias, why did Nokia feel forced to sell the division to Microsoft?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Old news poorly reported

      "I see around me in commuterland where it is a pretty even IOS / Samsung split"

      Not sure where you are, but in the City of London there are loads of Nokias about. Significant numbers of companies are deploying them to replace Blackberry, and they are now at about 13% market share in the UK...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Old news poorly reported

        ""I see around me in commuterland where it is a pretty even IOS / Samsung split"

        Not sure where you are, but in the City of London there are loads of Nokias about. Significant numbers of companies are deploying them to replace Blackberry, and they are now at about 13% market share in the UK..."

        I administrate mobile telephony for a large company. WP is very well received. More business focused cost effective.

        If MS have dumped WM6 earlier, maybe iPhone would not have taken hold as it did.

        1. mrbawsaq

          Re: Old news poorly reported

          If the iphone had not been released, Microsoft would not have dumped WM6 at all. At least not until someone else had shown them that there was billions to be made in the smart phone market.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Old news poorly reported

            The reason there are billions to be made is because process shrinks and inventive new technology have reduced the costs of making sophisticated phones at affordable prices, this was always going to happen, iPhone is an effect not a cause.

        2. Charlie Clark Silver badge

          Re: Old news poorly reported

          I administrate (sic) mobile telephony for a large company. WP is very well received. More business focused cost effective.

          You are guilty of the same observational bias as I am: what you can see. But this is fine as the same methodology underlies the Kandar report. FWIW I'm based in Germany and Nokia has managed to get a couple of their phones into German TV shows but otherwise you hardly see them.

          In summary, only trust like-for-like sales reports and the quarterly reports of the listed companies.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Old news poorly reported

      Installed base would be more interesting - suspect a lot of Android sales are people upgrading / renewing their contracts and the phone goes in landfill whereas iPhones tend to keep going or get second owners. Friend still uses their 3GS daily and it works perfectly despite being 4 years old (although they are due to upgrade to a 5S soon).

      I upgraded my 4S after about 2 years and passed it on to a family member who will probably still be using it in 2 years to come (the 4S is still a current / sold model and runs iOS 7).I actually reckon iPhone is cheaper in the long run as know people who trade their 18-24 month phones in at end of contract and they still have a lot of value (often at least half of new price).

    3. mrbawsaq

      Re: Old news poorly reported

      Totally agree with your comment about what's seen in the real world.

      I can count the number of windows 7 and 8 mobile phones I've seen in the wild on the fingers of 1 hand without exaggerating. Amongst my non-technical friends its an even split between iphones, androids and old nokias for those who can barely send a text let alone get their heads around an 'app'.

      I see way more WM6 phones than 7/8 models as these are still used by taxi drivers, delivery drivers, POS devices, etc.

  12. Sander van der Wal

    The real question is...

    whether Apple's iOS market size is big enough for a healthy ecosystem.

    With mainfraimes, mini's and pc's there was room for one big ecosystem and a couple of small ones. The premisse that Android is going to obliterate iOS and all the other is based on those observations, and the underlying theory network effect theory.

    With mobile, there are a couple of new factors. One, the potential user base is orders of magnitudes bigger than the user base for mainfraimes, and still at least one order of magnitude bigger that the PC user base.

    And secondly, switching costs on mobile are the lowest of them all. You can still call, use sms, whatsapp, or whatever method to contact other people. And apps on mobile are much cheaper than on PC's.

    Apple is clearly staking its position in that segment of the market where people care about quality and ease-of-use, and where cost is not the most important factor in the decision. A strategy that is not uncommon for succesfull consumer brands to make, and a position that is anathema to the business brands, where cost is everything, and ease-of-use is nether the buyers' nor the sellers' problem.

    1. cambsukguy

      Re: The real question is...

      I agree; I don't understand this "investment in the ecosystem" business.

      Obviously you may have a Mac of some kind and I am sure it works well with iTunes etc. but patently millions of iPhone owners have windows computers.

      I virtually never plug my (WP8) phone into a computer at all, of any kind - my phone keeps a backup of SMSs, app lists and pics/videos etc. in the cloud and can restore everything without using a PC at all.

      And, even if you did want to use some old-fashioned wire-connection method to copy files to/from a computer, it would work just as well on any PC - it appears as a simple mass storage device after all.

      And, since apps are very cheap and most people surely only have maybe 30 apps they actually bought and still use, it can't be that.

      So, it must be media costs. However, I am sure iTunes music can be moved to other systems, I thought I recalled something on WP that mentioned it ages ago.

      I think inertia is the main driver, one poster here said he bought a Lumia 520 for 60 somethings, a tenth of the cost of an iPhone. having realised that even a cheap Nokia can deliver a smooth experience and (no doubt) decent pictures, one would start wondering what a 250 quid Nokia 920 could do.

      Definitely one reason to have low-end WP devices present; they don't put you off the OS and are supported whilst being a completely usable device with great battery life, unlike many no-name low-end Androids.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The real question is...

        The ecosystem means it all works together / better. iOS devices to Apple TV, iTunes Match so you get your music on all your devices, iTunes let you stream all your purchased movies and TV programs for free to all your devices. iCloud is not stacked out with adverts and Apple do not need to scan all my emails to make revenue like Google do.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The real question is...

        Given the choice between a low end WP8 and Android - WP8 is the better OS and Android has more apps - but iOS is the best OS and has the best / most apps. Most people are loyal to what they have currently (human nature) but given a free choice (regardless of price) most would choose Apple / iOS and I'd be interested if they gave both to a decent sample of people how many would give back the iOS device compared to the Android one.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The real question is...

      Apple's iOS market size is not really important - they already have a huge app store and media service on their current installed base and that base is only getting bigger (iPhone 5S sales were another record). The fact is all those simple phones people had a few years ago have gone and every phone is now a smartphone.

      It would be like comparing Ferrari's market share to the market for all cars when you should compare it against other similar cars.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple care about making the best products, building a long term business, keeping their customers loyal and happy by providing great service and making a profit.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Landfill Windows Phone

    Guessing those owners must be pretty annoyed at missing out on a Moto G

    I would definitely question 10%. that sounds like Microsoft's money talking rather than reality. DO people really believe that 1 in 10 people you meet in the street, on the bus, train, tube have a Windows Phone? Open your eyes next time, and you will see that there is no way this can be true.

    2% at best.

    1. Cian Duffy

      Re: Landfill Windows Phone

      I'd say it could easily be 10% or more here (Ireland) from what I've seen out in public. Even high end Symbian devices held on here for a long time so there's some brand loyalty element to it.

      In work, our network (O2) provides a 520 as the 'free' phone for any new contract or upgrade which means its probably 30-40% in the office though - only engineering staff and management get dearer phones funded.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    We have all said it time and time again and now we are seeing it;

    fashions come and go and iPhone is just old hat now! (Get over it fanbois)

    No one wears the same clothes for 7 years running. The same goes for phones.

    Being seen with an iPhone (especially the 4/4S) now makes me think your stuck wearing flares! It's just so old, Apple look like a retirement home. Cook and Co. stating that their competition are responsible for "people" thinking Apple are not innovative anymore is proof positive.

    Apple CAN'T replicate it's initial success. All they did was put a pretty skin and a touch screen phone. That's been done to death now, even being spectacularly superseded by their competitors.

    We are all looking for something new and fresh. A re-badged iPhone, regardless of sapphire screens and dodgy finger print readers ain't doing it.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The 5C, designed by Apple to serve as a budget-priced complement to the more expensive iPhone 5 and 5s lines, has failed to catch on in a big way with British consumers. Researchers believe that in the UK the iPhone 5s still outsells the 5c by three to one."

    Most Brits mistakenly believe that if you don't have the 5S you a nobody. They believe that because that is what the marketers have told them for years, they are not clever enough to realise that they are being p0nwed by them.

    Judging by the poor results of our youth (BBC News), another generation will be lost to rampant consumerism/capitalism.

  17. vmistery

    Personally I dot around phones, Windows 5.5 on an iPAQ Messenger-> iPhone 3GS -> Galaxy S2 -> iPhone 5 -> Note 3 and I suspect others do too. Now the iPhone market is not really expanding as it is no longer the clear market leader there will naturally be some sway between it and Android but now Windows phone has hit maturity it seems and is offering devices that are both functional and cost effective (something that Android seems to lack other than the recently released Moto G) there has been sway towards that as well and I suspect it will continue to gain market share quite a bit over the next 18 months until it finds its share of the market. That is of course assuming no one comes along with something revolutionary which could happen. So in 2 years time I think we will see 3 primary Operating systems with Android and iOS slipping somewhat to Windows Phone.

    I have to admit in house I much prefer supporting Windows phones / devices to either Android or iOS kit as it more nicely integrates. None of them cause me a major headache though and I would gladly sacrifice a few hours extra a year to have the choice

  18. Mr. Peterson

    high line EuroTrash™ automotive mfr's

    have long established that the road to profitability does not equate to selling as many vehicles as FORD

  19. William 3 Bronze badge

    How I chuckle.

    Nice to see the bouffant haired bearded latte drinking "designer/media luvvies" arguing with the bowl haired pencil in the top shirt pocket mountain dew drinking "engineer/corporate drones" about things they know nothing about in some vain attempt to belittle each other whilst normal folk look at them and wonder why they are so bloody insecure.

    I just wish they would hurry up past this flirting stage, it's getting very tedious.

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