Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins

Archaeologists have rediscovered the lost home of the last Neanderthals on the south coast of Jersey, which shows evidence of the last cavemen to live in Northwest Europe. Neanderthal display in museum A team investigating an existing site at La Cotte de St Brelade cave on the southeastern coast of the island stumbled across …

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxes killed Neanderthals?

Aahhhh... so now we now the reason for Neanderthal extinction : Too much taxes !

The last survivors struggling to survive with their hoards of mammoth ivory safely tusked in Jersey trusts?

[Ikoth]

...NEANDERTHALS discovered... on JERSEY SHORE...

No shit?

[Armando 123]

Re: ...NEANDERTHALS discovered... on JERSEY SHORE...

Please. Such pompous stereotyping is impuning the Neanderthals, and I'm not having it!

[Gannon (J.) Dick]

Re: ...NEANDERTHALS discovered... on JERSEY SHORE...

The Jersey Shore is extinct ?

"Cavemen probably went extinct after the Channel Islands"

Bummer.

[fandom]

But, according to DNA we have evolved from Neanderthals too, didn't we?

[Big_Ted]

Sorry but no, they were a seperate species, interbreeding did happen though.

[Jonathan Richards 1]

Interbreeding and species

> they were a seperate species, interbreeding did happen though

This is oxymoronic. To a good first approximation, the definition of a species divide is that (fertile) interbreeding does not occur across the boundary. This is usually due either to biological features of the organisms, or geographical distribution. If H. neanderthalensis and H. sapiens shared a habitat and interbred to produce fertile offspring, then by definition they weren't separate species.

[Tom 38]

Re: Interbreeding and species

This is oxymoronic. To a good first approximation, the definition of a species divide is that (fertile) interbreeding does not occur across the boundary.

If all things were nice and neat and tidy, then that would be a good definition of a species, however inter-species breeding is not uncommon, and whilst most interspecific hybrids are infertile, some individuals are not, which can lead to a new hybrid species. For example, ligers (lion/tiger) and tiglons (tiger/lion) are largely infertile, but certain individuals are not and have reproduced.

Besides which, there is a good argument for saying this it is intra-specific hybridization between H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis, both being sub species of H. sapiens.

Even if they are not sub species, interspecific hybrids forming new species is not unknown either - the Red Wolf may be (opinions differ) a coyote/grey wolf hybrid.

[JeffyPoooh]

Re: Interbreeding and species

"...the definition of a species..."

It's perfectly obvious that the definition of a species, when applied to the real world both past and present, leads to a very fuzzy boundary. New species are slowly created over vast periods of time, leading to an ill-defined fuzzy middle.

One endless source of non-value-added debate are the circumstances where people argue about precisely where to draw a sharp line on a fuzzy spectrum. It's a source of many apparent paradoxical mysteries (sic). Worse, hundreds of millions of man-years of lukewarm thought have been wasted on this same mistake.

If people would just understand this futility, and learn to openly accept that continuums are commonplace, then they could spend less time arguing about stupid arbitrary and demonstrably poor definitions and more time (for example) developing my goldamn flying car.

[Jonathan Richards 1]

Re the definition of a species

Fuzzy boundaries; true. When I learned zoology, this gentleman told us that a species is whatever a good taxonomist says it is :-)

If one accepts the shared heritage of H. sapiens and H. neanderthalensis (and I do), then they must have a common ancestor. This seems such an obvious observation that it's hardly worth making, except when you consider that amongst the immediate children of that common ancestor, a real living pair of siblings, there was one who went on to be the ancestor of us, and his/her brother/sister went on to be the ancestor of neanderthals. The same argument goes for humans and gorillas, or goldfish and goldfinches. Weird, innit?

(I am indebted to Prof. Richard Dawkins for this insight).

[Wzrd1]

Re: Interbreeding and species

"To a good first approximation, the definition of a species divide is that (fertile) interbreeding does not occur across the boundary."

True, but sub-species can interbreed.

Which really makes an interesting question: At what point of divergence from the common ancestor could Pan and Homo no longer interbreed? It's so uneven a process, it poses an interesting question from a genetics point of view.

[JohnG]

People with origins outside Africa have about 4% DNA in common with Neanderthals. Whether this is down to shared common ancestry or hybridisation is not known.

[Michael H.F. Wilkinson]

People share 96% (or so) of DNA with bonobos, so everybody shares more with Neanderthals. I think what is meant that around 1 - 4% of DNA of people outside of Africa has similarities with Neanderthals which people in Africa lack. Several recent studies claim that the similarities stem from a shared ancestor, rather than hybridization. The alternative is that the similarities stem from a mixture of both.

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard we share 50% of our DNA with grass.

As I'm not an academic and I'm also lazy, check out the wikipedia entry on Neandertals.

The "interbreeding" thing was mentioned there and that surprised me too - I also thought lack of interbreeding was a good approximation of species difference. Then I saw the facial reconstruction and it turns out they're human ;)

I also understand that the DNA differences which distinguish races are smaller than the DNA differences within a race. I'm not sure this % DNA comparison is turning out to be that useful.

[bep]

Usefulness

I'm not sure your argument support the usefulness of the term 'race' either. It's now just sounds like an attempt to use a non-scientific term to replace a scientific term that is becoming increasingly hazy.

[Wzrd1]

"I also understand that the DNA differences which distinguish races are smaller than the DNA differences within a race. I'm not sure this % DNA comparison is turning out to be that useful."

True enough, it's more of a popular press thing.

Science tends to look more at what parts are different in what way, as well as how many parts of what chromosome is different/missing/additional, etc.

But, off the top of my head, I think that in common with grasses, we have a bit more than 50%. Many cellular mechanisms are the same across all species.

There are only so many ways to work with ATP, as one example. Or utilize sugar for food. Or maintain cellular respiration.

[Wzrd1]

"People share 96% (or so) of DNA with bonobos, so everybody shares more with Neanderthals. I think what is meant that around 1 - 4% of DNA of people outside of Africa has similarities with Neanderthals which people in Africa lack. Several recent studies claim that the similarities stem from a shared ancestor, rather than hybridization. The alternative is that the similarities stem from a mixture of both."

As I recall, the molecular geneticists are still trying to piece that puzzle together.

[Anonymous Coward]

they were a seperate species, interbreeding did happen though

The definition of a species is pretty much that it can't interbreed with a different species and produce fertile offspring.

They were different races, most likely:

homo sapiens sapiens (self-labelled)

homo sapiens *neanderthalensis

Given what is happening to the remaining primate groups on this planet, it's pretty clear what happened to the Neanderthals. We need to rename our species; something with "destructive" rather than "intelligent" in it should do nicely.

[Irony Deficient]

Homo sapiens sapiens

ribosome, sapiens would be better translated as “rational” or “wise” rather than “intelligent”. As far as the renaming goes, “destructive” comes from Latin, so H. sapiens destructivus would be a possibility; but if it came to a vote, I’d go with H. sapiens edax instead.

[Wzrd1]

Re: they were a seperate species, interbreeding did happen though

"They were different races, most likely:

homo sapiens sapiens (self-labelled)

homo sapiens *neanderthalensis"

Want to see taxonomists get into a bar fight? Ask them if it's Pan Sapiens or Homo Troglodytes. The fur will, figuratively, fly!

[Charles Manning]

And what did that interbreeding give us?

Us. (Well Western Europeans anyway).

Whereas modern humans has more African roots, the mixing in of some Neanderthal likely gave much of the distinctiveness of Europeans.

For a modern day reenactment, you might have a look at NZ where there has been very few racial stigmas and European and Maori cross polination have been happening for a long while.

[frank ly]

@Charles Manning Re: And what did that interbreeding give us?

It's nothing to do with pollen. What happens is .... well ....... Consider the birds and the bees; ..... oh..., you did.

[Grikath]

Re: And what did that interbreeding give us?

Not sure about that one , mr Manning...

The african continent, with it's occupants missing the Neanderthal genes, is decidedly non-peaceful and rather rife with various forms of agression, and has been as long as recorded history can prove.

Hell, the slave trade is practically an african invention, since it has proven to be more profitable to sell off your captured prizes, than to go through the trouble to domesticating them yourself. This has been the way since the egyptians. The Arabs and later the europeans simply jumped onto an existing wagon that was already rolling..

as far as maori are concerned.. Last time I checked the tribes in any area of that part of the world were quite accomplished, if not outright vicious, at warfare..

H. Sap. Sap was already agressive before they ever met their Neabderthal cousins. It's what made them successful in taking over the world as a species to begin with. What interbreeding *could* have accomplished is a rapid adaption to the rather frigid environment up north, since Neanderthals were ultimately perfectly adapted to the climate of the clacial period.

[Wzrd1]

Re: And what did that interbreeding give us?

"The african continent, with it's occupants missing the Neanderthal genes, is decidedly non-peaceful and rather rife with various forms of agression, and has been as long as recorded history can prove."

Erm, pre-colonization, the African continent was far more peaceful than all of Europe in any time period you care to name. It wasn't until post-colonization that things got screwed up.

Don't confuse tribal warfare with what Europe repeatedly experienced.

One only ponders the many, many, many, many wars throughout Europe. Eight crusades, a few of which seemed to never make it to the intended destination...

[Wzrd1]

"Sorry but no, they were a seperate species, interbreeding did happen though."

One could call it kissing cousins, from a species perspective.

[Jtom]

Hate to tell you, but latest research proved Neanderthal DNA is found in every human outside of the sub-Sahara. But don't dispair, research also shows Neanderthals had larger craniums.

[Ted Treen]

@fandom - 18/10/13 10:42

There are those who haven't done too much evolving...

Are you listening, Mr Prescott & Mr Balls?

[Richard 81]

Re: @fandom - 18/10/13 10:42

...and then there are those who evolved directly from reptiles into an entirely separate, cold-blooded, species; the most prominent examples being Mr Cameron and Me Osborne.

[Ted Treen]

@Richard 81 18/10/13 11:27

Wouldn't disagree with you there, old lad: I wasn't being partisan - although I wouldn't say your two examples have themselves done a whole load of evolving away from reptiles...

[Wzrd1]

Re: @fandom - 18/10/13 10:42

"...and then there are those who evolved directly from reptiles into an entirely separate, cold-blooded, species; the most prominent examples being Mr Cameron and Me Osborne."

You missed the species.

Those who evolved directly from reptiles into an entirely separate, cold-blooded species are called politicians.

[404]

Totally misleading

I thought there was going to be a study of the *reality* show 'Jersey Shore' - which would explain quite a few things, I hoped.

Not the case unfortunately, I'll have to wait to see where the snooki originated from the History Channel or some such.

[Gannon (J.) Dick]

Re: Totally misleading

Took me a while to figure out too. Once I got past the "people with one eyebrow interbreeding" (lot of that down the shore) it made sense.

[Mike Brown]

the most intresting question remains...

Did we breed with them to the point of extiction or did we eat them........

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: the most intresting question remains...

I think we ate them. Our ancestors were too politically correct to say "Get laid, young lady, unless you want to become extinct".

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: the most intresting question remains...

If you look at the basic math, genetic diversity within any population is relentlessly extinguished at a rate of about 25% per generation. This is the Maternal or Paternal Lineage Extinction Ratio (MLER/PLER). It applies to DNA, mtDNA, surnames, etc.

Each child carries one-half of your DNA. Two kids is roughly the long term average. 50% odds with two leads to 25% of your unique DNA being lost. Same thing with Mom's mtDNA and two sons. Same thing with Dad's surname and two daughters.

Obviously this is exactly what drives the creation of races and species.

Unfortunately for the missing-the-basics paleoanthropologists, MLER is a simpler and better explanation for what they see as "population bottle-necking" associated with (for example) their Eve Hypothesis.

Lot's of details here: http://inevitableeve.blogspot.com

[bep]

Re: the most intresting question remains...

But if the DNA keeps getting re-introduced to the mix by, basically, shagging your relatives, which is likely in small populations, does this not complicate matters just a little?

[Tom 38]

If these boffins are from Guernsey

Then you can just discount this as more inter-island rivalry

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: If these boffins are from Guernsey

If they were from Guernsey the claim would be that Neanderthals are still alive in Jersey.

[MondoMan]

"Caveman" <> "Neanderthal"

Even though the article implies that all "cavemen" were Neanderthals, this imprecise, old-fashioned term also applies to Cro-Magnons (H. sapiens) and even certain boorish folk today.

[Bill Gould]

Re: "Caveman" <> "Neanderthal"

No, no. I saw a TV special that showed Cro-Magnons as oppressive, dimensional sliding being bent on conquering all other homo-species.

[VinceH]

Re: "Caveman" <> "Neanderthal"

And here was I, wondering if anyone had made that reference, or if I'd have to add something myself, too late for anyone to see.

[dogged]

Headline.

"Last living NEANDERTHALS found" - or not.

They didn't find any living Neanderthals.

Stop doing this.

[Ted Treen]

Re: Headline.

"...didn't find any living Neanderthals..."

Then they weren't looking in the right place. See my earlier comments re Messrs Prescott & Balls - to which could be added the name McCluskey

[David Pollard]

Atavistic regression?

For a moment there I though this was going to be about Jimmy Savile's Friday club and Haut de la Garenne.

[ravenviz]

They remains are in surprisingly good nick judging by the photo.

[Faye B]

Extinct?

Are we sure that they have become extinct on Jersey, or maybe they swam over to Guernsey and forgot how to get back.

[phil dude]

changes to stay the same...

As someone pointed out, we have sequenced the DNA and they are not H.sapiens...

The most remarkable thing is not that we share DNA, but how *similar* they are to us and they went extinct...

We like to think we out competed them, but I suspect that is an assertion...

No disrespect to Sir David A, we are still evolving, just the selection landscape is flatter... at least in the west. Read the statistics from C. Africa, there is plenty of evolutionary pressure there...;-(

[ItsNotMe]

"Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins"

So the Commentards referring to "Jersey Shore" are most likely from the US...and have no clue about where the piece is ACTUALLY talking about.

And besides...they are really in Washington, D.C.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins"

Not only that, it appears that the neanderthals were also boffins, which begs the question as to why they died out in the first place.

[Charles Manning]

Re: "Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins"

Perhaps the Neanderthals were actually intelligent etc, but were defeated by hostility and/or dieseases in the invading foreigners, just like Europeans did to the rest of the world in the 16th-19th centuries.

After all, living in the cold of Europe meant you needed a level of technology (clothing, shelter, food storage) a cut above what was needed to survive in Africa. Being a boffin would help.

[P. Lee]

Re: "Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins"

or perhaps they were just people who didn't inter-marry much with other communities.

[Don Jefe]

Re: "Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins"

Yes, my fellow countrymen often miss that whole 'new' thing. I'm not sure why, but they don't seem to grasp that many of the place names in the North East are v2 of places in Europe. You'd think the 'new' would be a dead giveaway...

To be fair though, I did my graduate studies in New Jersey, and at first glance of the title I thought 'no shit there are living Neanderthals there. How is this a discovery, everyone knows that'.

[Gannon (J.) Dick]

Re: "Last living NEANDERTHALS discovered in JERSEY – boffins"

First, yes I am Merkin, and yes I know the Channel Islands and yes I know the New Jersey Atlantic Beach Communities and no I never watched the show.

Second, with all this talk about extinction and interbreeding, please don't mention Washington, DC. For the Republican Party the meaning of "extinction" is understood well enough and "interbreeding" sounds too much like "inbreeding" to the right wingnuts.

[Anonymous Coward]

@ItsNotMe

Don't be insulting and condescending...

Jersey--One of the Channel Islands. The last remnant of William the Conqueror's Norman fiefdom, these islands are a British territory located just west of Cherbourg and the Contentin Peninsula in France. They were the only British territory conquered by the Nazis in WW2, having amusingly surrendered to a lost Luftwaffe pilot who crash-landed on the islands. Most famous today for being an international tax haven.

Written from memory, and yes, I am American.

[Farnet]

Re: @ItsNotMe

Interesting as your comments are, you are slightly out regrading WWII

I dont know where you got this idea regarding a Luftwaffe pilot?!? the reality of it is this:

Winston Churchill, decided to demiliterise the channel islands and forgot to tell the German that. Germany sent two squadrons of bomber over the islands and mistook lorries carrying tomatos as troop carries in Guernsey harbour and proceeded to bomb the crap out to both islands and 44 civilians lost their lives. Germany invaded the Islands en-masse and the rest as we say is 'history'.

A lot of locals were shot (or sent to concentration camps) for resisting the Nazis on the island during the occupation, and this is even in the event that they knew that they had been left out to dry by the allies. and no help ever came, the Islanders still did what they could to fight the occupation.

So get your facts right.

[Anonymous Coward]

I left my Austin Champ parked up in Ouaisné Bay in 1974 and have never been back. Do you think it will be fossilized by now?

Petrol was 30p a gallon and local beer 11p a pint, those were the days.

[Don Jefe]

I left a car once, and I often wonder what ever became of it. Left the keys in it hoping that whoever found it would destroy it trying to steal it.

Plus I thought it would be really confusing to someone. After they discovered it, how long did it take before they took it. Did they agonize over it being a trick of some sort? Probably not, but I like to think so.

[Martin Budden]

I just had a look at Ouaisné on Street View, there's no sign of an Austin Champ, sorry.

[Stevie]

Bah!

"...understand when Neanderthal populations disappeared form the region"

About ten years after it was discovered that they taste delicious with chips would be my guess.

[The Dude]

we are the last living neandethals

If, as recent research indicates, Neanderthals intermarried with immigrants, and the resulting children are our ancestors - then we are the last remaining Neanderthals.

personally, I don't see anything wrong with that and the irrational prejudice that that Neanderthals were somehow inferior to the immigrants is simply a 19th century conceit.

This whole species-ism arrogance thing about Neanderthals really annoys me.

[Stevie]

Re: personally, I don't see anything wrong with that

Stinkin' Neanderthal lover!

[Anonymous Coward]

At first glance I thought it said "New Jersey"

And I thought, "so they discovered this by watching Jersey Shore reruns"? I guess they thought the fist pumping was some sort of Neanderthal tribal dance.

[Anonymous Coward]

Last living ones?

I'm pretty sure that the creatures inhabiting 10 Downing Street are direct descendants of Neanderthals, given their primordial nature...

[Anonymous Coward]

The Neanderthals have moved to British city centers...

Naturally shy, nowadays they mostly seem to come out on Friday and Saturday nights

[JeffyPoooh]

"Last" and other unprovable negatives

Paleoanthropologists are the 'C' students of logic and statistics.

They confuse oldest or newest 'found so far' with first and last. And frankly they're too thick to realize how stupid their claims are.

[Jim Birch]

That guy is very clean and his furs freshly laundered. We are going backwards.

[Rustident Spaceniak]

Err, last Neanderthals?

I says in the article that these sediments are 47.000 years old, but weren't the remains found in the actual Neanderthal from around 42.000 BC? That would seem to be later.

[Jtom]

One more thing....

They may have lived thousands of years ago, but they are registered as Democrats and still vote.