US red-tape will drain boffins' brains into China, says crypto-guru Shamir Cryptographer Adi Shamir – the "S" in the RSA encryption algorithm – says "heavy-handed" bureaucracy has prevented him from attending today's NSA-backed Cryptologic History Symposium. And he warned other scientists will be put off from visiting America if they face a similar struggle, which will effectively drive experts to …
It's pretty clear that in order to attract the best and brightest minds from around the world these conferences and symposiums will need to be scheduled internationally perhaps rotating through a list of science friendly countries. I know I'd be more likely to attend a conference in Grand Cayman than one in Maryland, not that I'm likely to be invited.
That does have really nice crab cakes.
Also lots more fresh and really nice seafood, on account of it being a small Caribbean island.
- Oddly, Hell is located there. It wasn't as fiery as advertised, and there was a distinct lack of brimstone. Hell does however have a post office and a petrol station.
Um, you are not a fan of geography, then? Maryland sits athwart (ow!) The Chesapeake Bay, which in turn is glued to the Atlantic Ocean.
The crab is plentiful and fresh. Indeed, during my stay there the problem was in finding food *without* some sort of crabby content. Even the crisps were crab flavored (and that is the only instance I can think of that involved in-crab-season fake crabbery).
Restaurants are brimming with fresh crab. Boats ride the waves full of crab. The whole situation is in danger of backing into a sketch about highwaymen who provide an over abundance of not Lupins but crab.
Interestingly off-topic: The bay is one place where an Englishman can be left totally gobsmacked should he run into an islander. The islanders speak with Norfolk (as in Naarch) accents. Heya gorra loight, boy?
Why not put the cat amongst the pigeons? Organise one in Russia or Beijing. Let's see how many seconds it takes after announcement to see changes in the VISA program.
I'm not that surprised, I have suspected for quite some time that there is a drive to make smart people leave the US so it makes sense to complete that program by not letting any other smart people in...
There are already problems for Americans when there are conferences in China (not sure about Russia). This years IAC conference was in Beijing and any american scientist working on a government funded program was forbidden from attending.
Basically, the rest of the world is sick of American bureaucracy and tries to avoid working with US scientists unless they happen to be footing the bill. It's just not worth the hassles!
Have you ever applied for a Russian or Chinese visa? For my last Russian one I had to provide a list of all countries I had visited each year in the last 10 years (apparently UK-ians get special treatment cf the rest of Europe) ... I had to assemble the list by trawling through old holiday photos and ancient emails; the Chinese one wasn't quite that tortuous but still required fairly pointless info. Admittedly, though, once I paid the excessive fees they both turned it around fairly quickly; and pointless bureaucracy is the sort of thing you expect from such states anyway.
I have no particular desire to go conferences in either of them again, and I suspect avoiding such will not be a career breaker. Likewise, I've seen/found no particular need to visit the US recently either.
Russia runs a strict tit-for-tat visa system: it makes you follow the same process that a Russian has to follow to visit your country. Having just travelled to the UK, yes, the UKBA requires visa applicants to provide a list of all the countries visited in the last ten years (in an online box which can only accept about 250 characters).
What reformation?
This is fairly recent actually. It started this year. Prior to that J1 visas could be obtained fairly with relative ease.
Once you spend in USA more than 70 days a year and especially if you have a prior history of living there USA immigration starts to pull you into the "room" every time you travel. At that point they cannot kick you out for violating the visa waiver they subject you to Gitmo style interrogation for up to 6-7 hours every time to "prove" that you are violating the terms by working in USA. So you do not have a choice - you have to get a visa.
Prior to this year, you could apply (with appropriate sponsorship) and get it in the usual terms (21 days if memory serves me right).
This year USA embassies have started to drag their heels and keep the passports for 4+ months. During those 4 months you are a prisoner in your own country - you cannot travel anywhere neither for business, nor leasure because USA has decided that it is entitled to "jail" you for the duration - they keep your passport throughout the process.
Shamir's story is not unique - I know other people who have had their travel plans for unrelated personal travel completely destroyed. End of the day they had to apply for a second passport (that causes marry hell with travel too by the way - increases your chance of being pulled over several times). It is one of those cases where you start to regret UK position on Eu compliant ID cards. Having a spare ID that is usable for travel in 1/4 of the world can be quite handy sometimes.
I've always thought that Iceland would be an ideal host country for US/EU based conferences - given decent accommodations and a large enough venue, I suspect they would do rather well hosting events. A good conference can generate a lot of local benefits in terms of additional spending and visitors.
Plus I've always wanted visit Iceland.
Plus volcanoes, so what's not to like?
Umm, I do recall a spot of bother with those. But yes, it's on my "places to visit" list, if only to race across the water in those insane buggies they have :)
The next one's easy, it'll be either Hekla or Krafla (pronounced 'crappla'). Sadly neither of those are what Icelanders call 'tourist' volcanoes (a recent tourist-friendly eruption was the one at Fimmvörðuháls that heralded the eruption at Eyjafjallajökull) as it'll be ashy, large and under a glacier, thus making it difficult to pose next to for pics.
Also, flight delays from the ash fallout will be the least of your worries if you're in northwest Europe.
Shamir has history with the US Govt. About 30 years ago he (@ the Weizman institute in Israel) published a paper - a step in the development of modern crypto - that caught Uncle Sam's eye. They ordered him to recall and destroy all copies! Someone pointed out that they weren't supposed to have jurisdiction over a man living and working in Israel, but that didn't stop them!
This pre-dates the US govt's run-ins with Phil Zimmernann or Dan Bernstein.
Maybe they still view him somewhat like Manning and Snowden?
The US attracted scientists for two reasons: (1) They have the biggest number of top scientists and scientific institutions, and (2) they were perceived as very welcoming to scientists and immigrants in general. Now they killed off number (2), the example here is just one in a long list of similar incidents. In the longer term, this will also affect point number (1) -- just look at how many of the top scientists originally came from abroad.
With their rising xenophobia, the US may well kill off its greatest source of scientific and economic success.
The ban was against Chinese citizens on NASA property.
Locating the conference in a NASA building meant not allowing Chinese citizens to attend.
You can still collaborate and do business with the Chinese and China.
China is too big to treat like Cuba.
"With their rising xenophobia, the US may well kill off its greatest source of scientific and economic success."
Especially given the atrocious state of the US educational systems, where most of my fellow citizens cannot even spell atrocious.
I'll not even go into US citizens horrific performance in geography, where it's bad enough that they cannot point out the UK on the globe, but are hard pressed to know *where* Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Russia, China and far too many can't even point out the US on the globe.
Of course, most can't even point out their own state on a US map...
... It's now. I've been avoiding the US for that very reason since 911. I'm sure others have too. The DHS staff are rude, obnoxious, and treat visitors as if we have been given the honour to set foot in their holy land. They waste your time and are incompetent. With their level of intelligence, how can anyone respect them? It's no wonder they act the way they do. I pity the poor tax payer. What a repressive regime.
The sad thing is this attitude, which is by no means uncommon, is really NOT how the majority of USA citizens think it should be.
I have never had a "problem" as such with USA immigration and border control, but as an anonymous person from Europe have seen how slow and troublesome it can be. As a point of comparison when on a flight to Chile, when fellow passengers were actually being fined for failing to declare fruit & veg (in that case a bag of tea), the staff were still polite and pleasant, and no guns were pointed at the visitors during the procedure.
I really wish that the USA gov, and its representatives, could be like the majority of pleasant and helpful folk I have met in my travels in the USA.
@Paul Crawford, I agree with you, Americans are very nice people, at least in my experience.
I think this story by Philip Zimbardo tries to explain how a group of people can become odd for no obvious reasons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQQsHtPrvc&list=PLVhS7OMlNhVtFawEDF-1ON4V5xkm04em7
As a septuagenarian citizen of the US, I'm prompted to both observe, and caution, that this nation finds itself embroiled in a political civil war. Just witness the recent threat of economic destruction at the hands of a mad minority.
Thus, some large faction of US citizens feel threatened by all and sundry from outside our borders, and any attempt to rein in our security apparatus will be opposed. Elected politicians representing the more sane half of the country are powerless in the face of fierce opposition which erupts at any attempt to curb the security agency excesses. Since a politician's first duty is survival in office, sane moderation suffers.
Let's also consider those few who've tried to blow the whistle on US excesses committed in the name of security. The lack of legislative response nationwide to those revelations, and the growing knowledge that US legislators have not only been kept in the dark by the US "alphabet" agencies but, as demonstrated by recent testimony, when Congress asks questions they may get half-truths and lies in answer, has resulted in the whistle-blowers becoming hunted fugitives, and US government employees and information media reporters coming under an invisible net of secret surveillance.
Thus it is no surprise to this old man that no matter your credentials, a bureaucratic drizzle of suspicion, screening, and monitoring will greet your desire to enter and move about the US. And by the way ... do not bring personal electronic devices with you! No one, not even returning US citizens, are immune from having them seized and searched at the border.
"As a septuagenarian citizen of the US, I'm prompted to both observe, and caution, that this nation finds itself embroiled in a political civil war."
This pentagenarian US citizen agrees!
Beware the ultra-nationalist, for their path is the path to fascism. That annoyingly loud minority seeks to wrest the political control in this once great nation into their own control and makes no bones about making threats to any who stand in their way.
"The lack of legislative response nationwide to those revelations..."
Erm, there is less than no evidence to support ignorance on the part of the legislature, when you actually examine their words. It seems to be more a willful ignorance, ignoring that which they are well aware of, as the lack of objection to recent revelations by Snowden clearly display.
Remember, each house of our Congress has their own SCIF and can as easily see the documents Snowden revealed as Snowden could, as well as a great deal more.
As one who met Snowden in person when he was responding to an event that literally emptied the NSA out of all system administrators, the 2008 Cyberattack on the US, I'll just call the prima donna where she lies.
The only thing he proved is complicity of the political leadership of the US in its intelligence programs.
Just as Manning only managed to prove something well known to anyone who knows diplomats personally, diplomats don't respect one another.
Though, Manning also proved that if one has press credentials and walks up to an enemy combatant with an RPG, hanging with other combatants with machineguns that had recently engaged US forces, one is most assuredly not protected against supportive fire.
I'd not be surprised if some middle manager in the process thought he was doing the nation a favor by removing someone who might have said something bad about the NSA programs, not realizing in their unplumbed depths of ignorance on the subject of cryptography, who precisely they were denying access by heel dragging.
"The DHS staff are rude, obnoxious, and treat visitors as if we have been given the honour to set foot in their holy land."
Never fear, you are not alone.
I'm a US citizen. Born, raised, left the country because of some war in Afghanistan that I was, erm, invited to by the US Government.
OK, to make not too fine a point of it, I was with US CENTCOM.
Came home after a year on leave, from a secure US Air Force base, only to pay for the honor of returning to the land of my birth and allegiance by being forced to receive a mandatory TSSA administered scrotum squeeze home.
I stopped coming home on leave.
To judge from our performance since I've retired from the military and returned home to stay, I decided to live in the wrong place!
Should have retired to New Zealand, as I was seriously considering doing.
At least they don't charge this for transit passengers. The US doesn't do transit so you have to have a $131 VISA to change planes - and need to be permitted through US immigration.
And since a lot of S America is out of range without refueling in the US this means they have effectively a blockade of an entire continent.
"The heavy handed visa bureaucracy you have created seems to be collapsing under its own weight," Shamir wrote of Uncle Sam's administration. "This is not a security issue – I have been to the US close to a hundred times so far (including some multi-year visits), and had never overstayed my visas. In addition, the number of terrorists among the members of the US National Academy of Science is rather small."
How very odd. Whatever was Shamir thinking of himself whenever he shared those revealing thoughts?
FTFA :- "will effectively drive experts to ... China"
So from being the most reviled country in the world (Tiananmen Sq etc) China has suddenly become cuddly? Irrespective of the fuss made about Tiananmen Sq by the Western media at the time, what I've heard is that the Chinese hate foreigners (eg www.chinese-traditions-and-culture.com/foreigners-in-China.html).
That, and stories of hotels where the loos are holes in a jetty overhanging a river or lake.
The toilets were similar to Western standards.
Guess I was just lucky.
Or not near a river or lake?
Joking aside, I have spent quite some time in Asia, and if people sense you are aware you're a guest, respect their culture and don't try to impose your view on their society they will be very forthcoming and helpful.
I would venture a guess that there is no law against Adi Shamir attending a conference.
The US, just like any other country, reserve the right to control their borders and to only admit those that they approve of. Some countries make it easier to get in (e.g., by allowing visa-free travel, if ), and for most westerners, getting into the US is as easy as it gets. But no country has to let you in, and they don't have to give a reason for refusing your entry.
The most you can do is to complain to your government. So if, for example, the US decided to refuse entry to Israeli citizens, there would be nothing you can do, but eventually Israel might decide to refuse entry to US citizens.
So the problem here is the intransparency. We don't know why it took so long to issue a visa, and it would be interesting to find out. Certainly the US is having a history of refusing entry to some of its outspoken critics. But then, the first amendment does not apply to foreigners and certainly not on foreign soil.
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"The US, just like any other country, reserve the right to control their borders and to only admit those that they approve of."
Erm, being invited by the NSA somewhat hints that he is well approved of. Indeed, the US government rather *likes* his algorithms, especially the RSA one. His last name initial is the S in RSA.
Acceptance of such boorish behavior on the part of a government, especially one's own, has frequently lead to unfortunate events.
As Germany how well a certain fascist regime turned out for them from the 1930's.
It all started out with ultra-nationalism, not questioning odd behaviors of the state, non-questioning of the state and accepting whatever the state does as good.
It ended up, in case you never learned WWII history, in two cities incinerated, many more largely converted to rubble and overall not a good time for the populace as US, UK and Russian forces stormed an entire nation and quite ruined their previous good time.
"for most westerners, getting into the US is as easy as it gets"
For most westerners, getting into the USA is a lot of pointless paperwork, pointless queuing, and repeated useless "checkpoint". I used to fly there at least 6 times a year, with a VISA even (because the so-called "visa-waiver program" makes it even more of a hassle, especially if you go there often). It's by very far the most bothersome western country to get in, and that's with a "friendly" passport and a permanent visa.
"for most westerners, getting into the US is much harder than getting into any other western country, and for no good reason"
Ah Ha . . . He is a citizen of Israel! That is the key word. If he were an illegal alien from Mexico he would be given a drivers license, and would be able to practice law in the state of California ( thanks to governor Brown ).
Israel is the new enemy of the Obama administration. This is political kabuki theater at the international level.
We're about to give citizenship to 17 million illegals with unresearched backgrounds, but we'd better lock the door if one of those Israeli scientists tries to attend a conference.
Wzrd1, Townshend’s tea tax was 3d. per pound avoirdupois, no matter the quality of the tea, so the tax rate varied from 5% (for 5s. hyson) to 12.5% (for 2s. bohea). And as people on both sides of the Atlantic were well aware then, the issue of contention was whether Parliament were able to levy taxes on people who had no members representing them to express their consent, not on the particular rate of such taxation.
The US ICE has cracked down hard on J-1 and L-1 visas in the last year. These are seriously abused by offshore outsource companies to drop workers in spot quickly. I know a person who was here on a J-1 who said that his rather large IT outsourcing firm creates it's own conferences. He would speak briefly to other company employees, and then head off to work the other thirteen days. Apparently they have a page on their internal website to tell employees what to tell the ICE upon entry.
Moving conferences to China is an empty threat, since (1) other security researchers will not want to go to a country with even more invasive surveillance than the USA, (2) going to China is very expensive.
But moving conferences to Europe is a realistic option.
It wasn't a threat to move the NSA's history of Crypto conference.
It was a warning where will the next generation of students and experts from outside USA and Eu go?
They aren't going to be allowed to work and study in America or Europe and I suspect Moscow university isn't offering quite as many scholarships for future African revolutionary leaders as it used to - so that leaves China.
I'm guessing the next Ramanujan, Bose or Chandrasekhar will be working at Beijing not Princton or Cambridge.
We don't know what went on here.
To us nerds Adi Shamir is a VIP. But diplomatic clerks don't know that.
It could be a visa clerk had an argument with their spouse that day and took it out on the first would-be visitor to come along.
It could be the visa clerk felt Shamir was a bit too uppity.
It could be the application got stuck on the desk of someone who was off sick, resigned or re-assigned.
It could be they confused him with that other Adi Shamir.
It could be the USA suspects the Shamir of aiding Israel or organized crime or whatever in sheltering secrets from the USA.
Lots of possible reasons for being treated to even more delays and paper work than normal.
Its not just scientists, the performing arts industry has the same problem.
The only industry not plagued by immigration bureaucracy is the immigration and embassy industry itself, since they exempt each other from the paper work.
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