Brit inventor Dyson challenges EU ruling on his hoover's energy efficiency ratings

Brit inventor James Dyson is challenging the EU's labelling policy for hoovers in court, claiming that it doesn't do his vacuum cleaners justice. Dyson said that the EU's energy efficiency rating system was based on dust-free lab conditions that were completely different to the way that hoovers performed in the home. The firm …

[Neil Barnes]

It's no good

sucking up to the EU...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's no good

I'm sure it will just blow over.

[J. R. Hartley]

Re: It's no good

As much as I dislike the man, he has a point...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's no good

I buy a vacuum cleaner (note I do not use the brand name Hoover) to vacuum and pick up crud from my carpets and floors. The last thing I want to do or think about is saving the planet when I do.

[Anonymous Coward]

A policy for "hoover in court"!

I know the general populace has demanded that the judiciary be cleaned up, but I didn't realise there was a niche market for hoovers in court - you learn something every day.

[itzman]

A can of worms..

That Dyson should have left firmly closed... his filters clog up badly..on fine dust..

and if I could be bothered I'd trash his adverts with the ASA..

[damian Kelly]

Re: A can of worms..

Ahh yes and you have spotted half of the story. At no point ever do dyson ever say anything about filters. They always talk about bags. That they can not make a cyclonic filter work on the mass of dust is not immensely surprising but that they use filters and dont ever mention them till you buy one and it stops as pretty much as inefficient as any other hoover.

On the plus side they look pretty, are massively overpriced, brittle yet heavy. All you want in a vacuum.

Oh and if you phone them refer to their vacuum as a hoover. They love it......

[taxman]

Re: A can of worms..

...and the bagless containers need a bit of a wash out after a bit too.....to get rid of the dust stuck in the crevices, sides, rubber etc

[Real Ale is Best]

Re: A can of worms..

his filters clog up badly

You could always wash them more frequently.

[janimal]

Re: A can of worms..

We had a Dyson a long time ago. I was so frustrated it's suction power was useless. We had a white cat and a blue carpet in one room. The Dyson never came close to picking up those cat hairs.

The mother in law gave us her Miele. Utterly amazing. It has variable suction power that could actually pick up the carpet on full power. It also has motorised brushes in the cleaning head which pick up the cat hairs instantly.

3rd party bags & filters available on t'internet cheap.

F*ck Dyson

[auburnman]

Re: A can of worms..

The best Hoover I ever had was a thirty quid Dyson Cyclone technology knockoff from Electrolux. You'd forget to empty it as it never seemed to lose suction.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: A can of worms..

He can stick his vaccum cleaner up his arse.

I cant understand why we fete his overpriced, underwhelming, foreign tat anymore. If he's had the courage of his convictions he would have retained their manufacturing operation in Blighty.

Shame on you, Dyson.

PS. Wanker!

[perlcat]

Re: A can of worms..

Looks like the Dyson Sphere of influence is shrinking.

[rimshot]

That's a joke, son, get it?

[The elephant in the room]

Re: A can of worms..

F*ck your hairy pussy!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[Frank Bough]

Re: A can of worms..

Agreed. Dyson hoovers are terribly overpriced and poor performers. A conventional Miele cylinder type for half the price shits all over them, and the Miele's made in the EU, too.

[druck]

Re: A can of worms..

We've got the DC-23 Animal, the suction is terrific, same now as it was 3 years ago and a couple of filter washes. We went through a load of cheap and expensive vacuums before that, and the Dyson is undoubtedly the best. A Great British invention!

[MrXavia]

Re: A can of worms..

you mean the washable filters? how often do you clean them? or should I ask, how dirty is your house??

I've had a Dyson for 3 years, and with the regular use(probably 1 hour+ daily), that gets it is still working great, I think your either unlucky or are using it in a very strange situation...

Clean the filters once a month seems to be fine for us...

[Spoonsinger]

Re: or should I ask, how dirty is your house??

You obviously don't have a blue cat with a white carpet, (or something which isn't).

ps

They arn't that great for dog hairs on stairs either regardless if they are wearing a hat or not.

[kbb]

"...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Wouldn't it just be simpler to make the manufacturers make the things 'A' rated?

[BristolBachelor]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Wouldn't it just be simpler to make the manufacturers make the things 'A' rated?

Yes, and indeed that law is coming next year:

● All TVs must consume less than 3W (The biggest screen anyone has made that complies so far is 2". Sony have plans for a jumbo sized 2.3")

● All fridges must consume less than 100Wh a year. (You will need a separate fridge per bottle of milk, any bigger and the fridges consume too much)

● All vehicles must travel 200 miles to the gallon (So far there is a choice of 2 mopeds, and yes they have pedals to go up hills again, just like in the old days)

Ah yes, one size fits all.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

The EU loves making crazy regulations to drive the Brits crazy as they are the only country with bureaucrats who are sufficiently jobsworthy to actually implement or enforce them.

[Gordon 11]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

So far there is a choice of 2 mopeds, and yes they have pedals to go up hills again, just like in the old days

Which part of moped didn't you understand?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

The ratings aren't always the best metric.

For example, I have solar panels that heat my water (when I'm lucky) yet I can not find an energy rated washing machine that has a hot water inlet. They all have a single cold water inlet and the water is heated up in the washing machine. The reason for this is that in order to get an energy rating the washing machine has to use cold water and heat it up, it can not use hot water. Without an energy rating it can not be sold in the EU.

The EU has effectively banned me from using solar heated water to wash my clothes and is instead forcing me to heat water using electricity.

Even without solar, it is more efficient for your household water heating system to provide the washing machine with hot water than it is for your washing machine to heat it itself and therefore the EU efficiency rating forces washing machines to be more inefficient.

[Jim Hague]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

I bet there's no such EU regulation - can you point to it? - but this is the washing machine manufacturers saving a few quid on components. Slow cycle times to save water, now that's definitely the energy rating.

http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/cold-fill-washing-machines/, for example, doesn't mention regulation and points out that very little hot water from the average heating system will ever make it into the machine anyway, as by the time the tap runs hot you're full.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

> I bet there's no such EU regulation

2000/45/EC: Commission Decision of 17 December 1999 establishing the ecological criteria for the award of the Community eco-label to washing machines (notified under document number C(1999) 4650)

The machine shall use less than or equal to 0,17 kWh of electrical energy per kg of washload measured according to EN 60456:1999, using the same standard 60 °C cotton cycle as chosen for Commission Directive 95/12/EC(1).

The inlet water supply has to be at 15C. If you want to read EN 60456:1999 (or its successors) yourself then it will cost you money.

[handle]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Um - that hasn't resulted in the "banning" of hot-fill washing machines, as a simple web search will demonstrate. So why else do you think they've disappeared?

Rather than ranting about your EU overlords, read an article here about why hot fill is pretty much a waste of time, even when the water is heated from a renewable source. TL;DR:

- Opening the hot fill valve fills the washing machine with "standing" cold water from the pipework before any hot water arrives from the boiler/tank at 0.7l per metre of 15mm pipe (some of which has to heat the pipe, too)

- The standing hot water then left in the pipework is wasted, unless you happen to have the heating on. Unless you have more renewably-heated hot water than you need, you will be paying money for this.

- Washing machines use far less water than they used to, so this problem is much more significant than it used to be (i.e. the proportion of heat wasted is much greater)

- Modern detergents work better at lower temperatures, reducing further the amount of hot water needed, and thus making the problem even more significant. How often do you do a wash at more than 30 degrees nowadays?

- Some clothes can be damaged by thermal shock - better to heat the water up slowly

[handle]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Oh and a point of my own - feel free to argue :)

Modern gas boilers have control systems designed to prevent them "short cycling" in central heating mode, because this is very inefficient and also reduces the life of the boiler. If you have a simple combination boiler without a thermal store, it has to fire up every time you turn on the hot tap or the washing machine fills. I imagine, therefore, that with the small amount of water modern machines use, heating it up with a combi boiler will not be very efficient. (Modern machines have recirculation pumps so there is no wasted water sitting in the pipework at the bottom, and the clothes are washed with a jet from above so don't need to be submerged.)

[theblackhand]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

"Without an energy rating it can not be sold in the EU."

Council Directive 92/75/EEC of 22 September 1992

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexplus!prod!DocNumber&lg=en&type_doc=Directive&an_doc=1992&nu_doc=75

[Justwatching]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Only to true about hot fill on washing machines ,the machine is full long before the hot water arrives from the hot tank .In the case of a combi boiler it is even longer before you get any hot water . In most hot and cold fill machines the hot water was only used for wool wash.

[IR]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

"The EU has effectively banned me from using solar heated water to wash my clothes and is instead forcing me to heat water using electricity."

Then plumb in your hot water and tell the machine to do a cold wash.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Sorry, but that's bollocks. I have an Indesit washing machine that has a hot-water inlet. And it's a C rated washing machine. So yes, you *do* get energy-rated washing machines with hot-water inlets.

[IsJustabloke]

I'd rather James Dyson bent his energies to making his cleaners less of an assault on the eyes.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the assault on the eyes that's the problem

It's the assault on the wallet.

[Suricou Raven]

Dyson have a point.

Dust-free testing would give an unfair advantage to bag-using cleaners. The tests should accurately reflect real-world conditions.

Someone must define a 'standard carpet' with an exact laboratory-standard mixture of dust particles of various sizes and a measured quantity of cat hair.

[Brewster's Angle Grinder]

Re: Dyson have a point.

I second the cat hair. It needs to have been trodden down for several days, too.

[Jean Le PHARMACIEN]

Re: Dyson have a point.

but then wouldn't the Miele 'Cat'n'Dog' model have an unfair advantage??

[Anonymous Coward]

@Brewster

Surely trodden down does not reflect a real home? surely you vacuum daily right?

I mean how can anyone live in a house and NOT vacuum daily...

[Brewster's Angle Grinder]

Re: @Brewster

That would take away the satisfaction of watching the container go from empty to full. I want to be able to see all the dirt I've removed from the house, rather than feel I've wasted another forty minutes losing the battle with the second law of thermodynamics.

PS, unlike the downvoters, I think you're joking. (Or maybe they're downvoting the sarcasm and they do hoover every day.)

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dyson have a point.

add in a few puked-up hairballs hidden away for the ultimate test.

[Alan Brown]

Re: Dyson have a point.

"Someone must define a 'standard carpet' with an exact laboratory-standard mixture of dust particles of various sizes and a measured quantity of cat hair."

FWIW, they have. The issue is that testing takes place once, with a new device and there isn't enough material tested to actually fill a container/bag - so all that's being measure is initial efficiency - which to be frank, is crap on all of them.

Some time back a british gentleman managed to patent a system where the exhaust air is redierected down onto the carpet/floor just in front of the suction head. The result was that the same cleaning efficiency can be achived with about 25% of the power(*). As far as I'm aware there is only ONE cleaner on the market which makes use of this innovation.

(*) It also means that the fine dust spray which all vacuum cleaners emit (even the HEPA filtered ones) is eliminated and efficiency sapping fine filtration is largely unncessary because with the air being recirculated continuously the filters have a much greater chance of catching everything.

[Matt 21]

Re: Dyson have a point.

Having moved abroad and had houses with tiled floors I don't really notice much difference between vacuum cleaners.

While I agree that more realistic testing is a good idea I can't help but feel that Dyson is complaining because his vacuums use more electricity than the others.

[Andy 73]

Re: Dyson have a point.

Name names, which is this mythical super-efficient hoo.. dy.. vacuum cleaner? Enquiring minds have nothing better to do during their lunch break.

[Matthew 3]

Re: Dyson have a point.

"Someone must define a 'standard carpet' with an exact laboratory-standard mixture of dust particles of various sizes and a measured quantity of cat hair."

Which? do this already. Here's a snippet from their 'How we test vacuum cleaners' notes:

"For our carpet test, first a machine spreads super-fine sand from Arizona over a carpet and grinds it in. We then strap each vacuum cleaner into the rig, which pulls and pushes it back and forth five times as it sucks up the dust. This is known as the ‘Arizona sand’ test.

We repeat this test several times, measuring when bags or canisters are empty, and also when they're filled with 100g and 400g of dust. Each vacuum cleaner covers a distance of 288m in this test alone. The rig springs into action again to do a similar job for smooth and creviced wood floors.

A bad vacuum cleaner picks up less than half of the dirt in the carpet, where as a Best Buy can pick up twice as much."

Miele usually spank all opposition.

[Jim Lewis]

Hoovers???

I bet Dyson would be less than pleased to see vacuum cleaners referred to by his competitors trade name.

I thought we'd stopped doing that last century.

As it is a US brand, do you think you could try to support the home grown industry a bit more?

I'm off to do the Dysonning now...

[Anonymous Coward 101]

Re: Hoovers???

"I thought we'd stopped doing that last century."

News to me. I use a hoover to do the hoovering. My hoover is made by Dyson.

[Daz555]

Re: Hoovers???

The hose on my Samsung hoover split the other day. Thankfully I was able to repair it with some Sellotape and careful use of a Stanley knife.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hoovers???

A tenuous link, and I only thought of it because of the way Bubbles says "Hoover vacooom".

http://youtu.be/-q5bnwPLrxg?t=6m44s

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Hoovers???

Reminds me of some school kids I heard in town talking about their teacher "Ms Dyson":

"Ms Dyson. Ha! Ha! I wonder if she invented the hoover. Ha! Ha!"

My wife said giving them a smack on the head would be frowned upon.

[Shagbag]

Re: "Ms Dyson. Ha! Ha! I wonder if she invented the hoover. Ha! Ha!"

Yes, I did find myself laughing at that one - AT THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF IT!

A Dyson can never be a Hoover, in the same way that a Ford can never be a Toyota.

Ford and Toyota are brands of automobile.

Dyson and Hoover are brands of vacuum cleaner.

Oh the impossiblity! Ha Ha!.

[Ragarath]

Re: "Ms Dyson. Ha! Ha! I wonder if she invented the hoover. Ha! Ha!"

You may not be able to call a Dyson a Hoover but you can hoover with a Dyson!

See Here

[cortland]

Re: "Ms Dyson. Ha! Ha! I wonder if she invented the hoover. Ha! Ha!"

ALL

Fair is foul, and foul is fair,

Ho[o]ver through the fog and filthy air.

**They exit.**

http://poetry.rapgenius.com/William-shakespeare-macbeth-act-1-scene-1-lyrics#lyric

[Piro]

Re: Hoovers???

Completely agreed. But then I only say vacuum cleaner anyway.

[Frank Bough]

Re: Hoovers???

Where are Dyson's hoovers made, exactly?

[G-Mann]

Re: Hoovers???

Dyson make vacuum cleaners

Hoover make vacuum cleaners

Dyson do not make Hoovers

Hoover do not make Dysons

Simple...

we say "vac" the carpet anyway!

[gazthejourno]

Re: Re: Hoovers???

I had a cat called Hoover once. She used to completely clear her food bowl, just like a hoover would have - hence the name.

[Evil Auditor]

Re: Hoovers???

@gazthejourno: If you hoovered Hoover could you hoover it with a Dyson or did you hoover Hoover with another Hoover?

[Brewster's Angle Grinder]

@gazthejourno

I had a cat called Puke once. You can guess why.

[Nasty Nick]

Re: @gazthejourno

Then mine should be called "Crap Behind the TV Four Times".

[Not That Andrew]

Re: Hoovers???

Actually, in the UK Hoover lost their trademark because it became a generic term, so you can quite happily and legally hoover away with your Dyson, Miele or Henry. You can even hoover with your Hoover. I have no idea of the grammatical correctness of your actions, however.

[lglethal]

Am I the only one...

Am I the only one who things testing a vacuum cleaner in a dust free environment is like testing a chainsaw by cutting through Jello? Ok you might get a result, but I hardly think its telling you anything useful...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Am I the only one...

I'd say it was like measuring your car's power output with the wheels jacked up off the ground.

or a washing machine with nothing put into the drum

energy efficiency of a vacuum cleaner ought to be the energy it uses to pick up a known quantity of material. what price a low energy usage cleaner if you have to vacuum the same bit of carpet twice?

[graeme leggett]

Re: Am I the only one...

commenting on myself here.

There is already a standard test method for pickup, etc

BS EN 60312-1:2013 Vacuum cleaners for household use Dry vacuum cleaners. Methods for measuring the performance

So why not just tag on a current/voltage measuring element to it and have a consistently measurable method for energy efficiency?

[John Brown (no body)]

Re: Am I the only one...

"what price a low energy usage cleaner if you have to vacuum the same bit of carpet twice?"

Like the way most toasters are "low energy" nowadays. They take twice as long to make the toast so you end up using the same energy (or more, due to wasted heat emissions rising up) to make toast that is hard and dry. Unfortunately, you can't test a toaster until you get it home.

This does seem to be an unfortunate trend. Setting headline targets for energy efficiency which result in more usage rather than less due to the manufactures gaming the system either to save money or because the targets are unrealistic in the first place.

[pPPPP]

Re: Am I the only one...

That's not as bad as those bloody hand dryers that blow cold air but don't actually dry your hands.

They consume power without actually achieving anything so they are infinitely less efficient than the old sort.

[handle]

@ John Brown

Wouldn't the power rating of the toaster give you a clue as to how long it would take? Anyway, I don't think there's an EU energy rating for toasters, so you can't really blame "headline targets." If any reduction in power is occurring it's probably greenwash by the manufacturers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sort out the car industry mpg figures while you're at it...

real world mpg figures never match the EU fuel economy test either - plus the manufacturers do a Shamsung and 'optimise' for the test. I imagine the vacuum industry does too.

[Tim Warren]

Re: Sort out the car industry mpg figures while you're at it...

Totally agree with you on this one. Apparently my VW Passat Sport 177PS returns 67.3mpg Extra-Urban 60.1mpg combined, and 50.4 urban.

Well I can tell you that I have never seen any more than 55mpg, and that was taken over a relatively short section of scottish highlands A road at about 50mph.

For real world figures consisting of mostly extra-urban driving on A roads, plus a little motorway driving, in the Cambridgeshire fens see:

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/w0067814/passat

I'm not a fast driver either BTW...

[hplasm]

Re: I'm not a fast driver either BTW...

In a Passat? No...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Sort out the car industry mpg figures while you're at it...

"Totally agree with you on this one. Apparently my VW Passat Sport 177PS returns 67.3mpg Extra-Urban 60.1mpg combined, and 50.4 urban.

Well I can tell you that I have never seen any more than 55mpg"

VW diesels get more fuel-efficient as they run in (around the 20k mile mark), apparently, so if it's new ...

FWIW, I typically manage around 2mpg better than the published figures for my car (i.e. published combined figure 54mpg, brim-to-brim measured figure of ~56mpg) ...

[Fihart]

Dyson's strength -- brute force.

I'm fond of the Mk 1 Dyson which I found in a skip totally jammed with congealed scraped off wallpaper -- not a task for which it's warranted. Jamming can happen with the Mk 1 even in normal use, so several more Dyson rescues ensued. As I haven't yet found any Mk 2 or later models abandoned, I assume that Dyson has fixed the problem.

Once unclogged they work well but I suspect that the main thing is the enormous motor, rather than the eye-catching swirly effect technology. The latter, combined with the Red Dwarf styling and the sheer noise of the thing has man-appeal that no vacuum cleaner ever had previously.

[BugMan]

Testing in a representative environment

Why should the EU test in a representative environment - it's not like they do this for anything else...

Hands up anyone who's managed to get anywhere near the offical mpg figures for a car?

[NorthernCoder]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

"...mpg figures for a car?"

Does it count if it is in a long downhill with the wind in the back, the sun behind me and an urgent need to find a toilet?

[Zimmer]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

Hand up here, sir! Me,sir..!! 2007 Fabia Estate... 64mpg mixed driving ... can get (and have had) 80mpg over a 30 mile trip along A and B roads... Hammer it on the motorway on a trip and you only get 63mpg :( shame, that..

[Frank Bough]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

My car pretty much achieves it's official, terrible, MPG numbers.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

Why should the EU test in a representative environment - it's not like they do this for anything else...

BugMan,

Aha! Now I understand it. That's why all the Eurozone banks passed the 3 sets of stress-tests they did, including all the Spanish and Cypriot ones. The Spanish ones were only bailed out 6 months after the third lot as well...

But don't worry, they're doing some more at the moment.

BTW, back on topic, how fast does a sheep travel in a vacuum cleaner?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

"That's why all the Eurozone banks passed the 3 sets of stress-tests they did, including all the Spanish and Cypriot ones. The Spanish ones were only bailed out 6 months after the third lot as well..."

Unlike the totally respectable well managed UK banks who aren't being kept afloat by the BoE printing shedloads of money. Oooh, I crack myself up sometimes.

[Soruk]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

> Hands up anyone who's managed to get anywhere near the offical mpg figures for a car?

I've exceeded them on occasion. 80mpg in my 2009 Grand Modus.

On one journey in my previous car (2004 Scenic) I once got 90mpg between Basingstoke and Canterbury, something I have never managed to repeat since.

[Evil Auditor]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

Another hand up! Manual says 15.5 mpg but I usually get about 22 mpg.

Isn't that great? Thank you for the G, you Austrian engineers! </sarcasm>

[fruitoftheloon]

Re: Testing in a representative environment

yup,

regularly beat manfs fuel consumption figs 47mpg on a ford s-max 2.2d on 300 mile a-road/motorway journey, +34mpg on longer trips i bmw auto 535 petrol, 34mpg on long trips in 2.7d auto jeep cherokee, long term average 30mpg

[Number6]

I wish they'd come and test them all in my house, then I wouldn't have to clean the floors.

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah because the 10 minutes every couple of days spent hovering around the house is a real big number in the grand scheme of national energy use... I expect the money and energy put into running the test labs will be greater then the total energy saved if everyone used the lowest energy vacuum (also does it take into account the life of the product, "really economic in lab conditions cleaner" ends up breaking after a year, while "not really economic cleaner lasts for five years" what is the energy required to produce a new "economic in lab conditions cleaner"? Dysons tend to last forever and are pretty modular so you don't need a whole new cleaner when something gets bust.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Hoovering every couple of days!?!?!? Did you say days?

You didn't mean years did you? My hoover is embarrassingly energy efficient then.

[Evil Auditor]

That little bit of domestic dust hardly hurts anyone. Let's hoover less to save the planet!

[CynicalOptimist]

He could have strengthened his legal case if he’d teamed up with other manufacturers. Currently, he is operating in a vacuum.

[I ain't Spartacus]

His problem is that his rivals all suck. And cooperation just isn't their bag. Also untrustworthy, less than half of them being upright...

[Loyal Commenter]

Is it just me

or does it sound like Dyson might think that his hoover's / vaccum cleaner's / swirly suction device's* energy rating might not work out as the best, and he wants the tests skewed to benefit his marketing department?

*delete as applicable

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: Is it just me

Downvoted? Really? He has pretty much said that the fact that his cleaner is 'bagless' (a design element) should count as a plus in an energy efficiency rating (a measure of how much poweer it uses to do its job). If that isn't asking for the benchmark to be skewed in your favour, I don't know what is.

[Rukario]

Re: Is it just me

Downvoted probably because of the proliferation of greengrocer's apostrophe's apostrophes.

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: Is it just me

They're possessive apostrophes; if they weren't there, you'd (or should) get a syntax error trying to parse the sentence.

[I ain't Spartacus]

Re: Is it just me

I'm sure it's precisely the point. However, he may have some justification on his side. After all, the whole point of the swirly-wirly design was to do away with the bags. Because the bags only work at peak efficiency for the first bit of sucking, until you've actually used them. At which point they start to reduce in efficiency and suction.

So his point is that his should be using a relatively stable amount of energy, whereas theirs will become more energy inefficient as they're used. So testing when brand spanking new does give them an advantage - and isn't really a good test of energy efficiency. Or anything really.

He may even have a point on consumables. In something like a fridge, which is turned on 24/7, energy efficiency is obviously key. However, a hoover is only turned on once a week, for a few minutes. So consumables are a much larger proportion of the energy budget. Also if the unit drops in efficiency for a large portion of its lifecycle, it may end up consuming more power, as it has to be turned on for longer to do the same job.

Being no hoover expert, it may be that he's just getting his complaint in first. But his points seem pretty reasonable to me so far.

[Dave K]

Re: Is it just me

So, you develop a device, add a few features into it which you feel improve its efficiency in real world usage, then the EU decide to test the devices in a silly way which bypasses your efficiency improvements (ooh I dunno, testing vacuums in a dust-free environment for example). Of course you'd complain!

Just the same was as if they tried to test the efficiency of cars by doing 30 laps flat out around Silverstone, all the hybrid manufacturers would (rightly) complain that it's not a true test of actual real-world usage (unless you're Michael Schumacher and happen to live next to the Nürburgring).

Unless of course you can see a single real-world aspect to firing up a vacuum cleaner in a dust free area?

[heyrick]

Dear Dyson

While I have not bought a Dyson, I have bagless cleaners and I HATE the mess it makes when it is time to empty it. My next model will have a bag. Too bad for "the environment", I'm going to worry about my own lungs first.

[Callam McMillan]

Re: Dear Dyson

Simple solution: Buy a Henry. You'll change the bags every so often and keep the filter clean, then it'll last you at least 10 years judging by our one!

[Frank Bough]

Re: Dear Dyson

Henry's are shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dear Dyson

"Henry's are shit."

Care to expand on your eloquent comment?

Numatic/Henry cleaners aren't high tech or complicated. It's a motor, turning a fan, above a filter, above a bag in a bucket on wheels and is about £100 retail. It's simple, quality engineering from Somerset designed to clean floors and carpets for many years without giving fuss.

Compare that to complicated, unreliable and Malaysian built nonsense that is your average Dyson. £200+ retail but about as well built as a Moskvich.

[handle]

Malaysian Dysons

Galling though it must have been when Dyson moved its production line to Malaysia, it seems a little odd to criticise when most other vacuum cleaners were never made in the UK in the first place.

Henrys are cylinder cleaners so inherently inferior compared to an upright of any make, as they do not brush, merely suck.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dear Dyson

>Henry's are shit.

So's your English.

[circusmole]

Re: Dear Dyson

>Henry's are shit<

I would just like to take the time to thank you for your insightful, well considered, thought-provoking and valuable contribution to this discussion.

[AndyC]

Re: Dear Dyson

Hmmm, speaking as someone who used to try and sell Kirby hoovers (I actually got people to buy *that* overpriced piece of American rubbish!) I can categorically state that Henry hoovers were brilliant.

I never got a sale in a house with a Henry. They were cheap and very good at hoovering.

Dysons, on the other hand, were the most traded in hoover we ever had. We had rooms full of the things. They may look nice in the shop, are very loud (so must be powerful, right?) but they are sh*t at hoovering.

Style over substance.

Andy

[JeeBee]

Re: Dear Dyson

+1 for getting a Henry, mine just keeps on going. Bags are cheap online too.

Okay, I did replace the powered head unit because the brush roller broke, but at least you can buy the replacement head units on their own.

There's a reason that offices use these - they work, keep on working, and they're simple.

[Zot]

Re: Dear Dyson

With my old Dyson I just press a button in the top of the handle and carry the plastic container out to the bin, separate it's two halves over the bin and shake out the dust. The drop it back in place. That's not really a messy job.

I do need to wash the filters every year or so, as it loses suction because a safety valve blows on the side, as I guess it thinks the pipe is block by something, but it's actually the filter that's clogged.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dear Dyson

You should try a Dyson, I never have a mess when I empty, yes with other bagless I have...

Just hold in bin, push button, drop all dust goes into bin... tap a few times to ensure its all out, then close and your clean, no bag needed

[Tom 260]

Re: Dear Dyson

"Just hold in bin, push button, drop all dust goes into bin... tap a few times to ensure its all out, then close and your clean, no bag needed"

We ended up emptying each load from our Dyson (now departed to the council tip) into a carrier bag, as the dust and dog hair would just stick to the sides of the bin, and not end up in the lorry when it was emptied.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never quite worked out the benefit of Dyson

My folks bought an early DC02 and had a lot of trouble with it. Cord retraction, power switch and other quite important features failed, which isn't what you want with a "premium" product.

It was replaced with a Henry. About as complicated as a potato, but built to last. In the end it was killed after many years when the motor bearings gave out after being used with a filter that had a hole in after being set on fire (long story).

That henry was replaced with another one...

[Gordon 10]

Re: I've never quite worked out the benefit of Dyson

Why didnt you get them fixed under warantee - afaik remember even out of waranttee Dyson have the best customer service I have dealt with - often just fling you out a spare part.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I've never quite worked out the benefit of Dyson

I never did ask my folks, but I assume it was because it failed after the usual 12 months and my old man managed to hotwire the power switch to keep it going.

[Sandpit]

Had two Dysons, both shit and didn't last that long, they were early models but I got fed up with them not living up tothe hype. That's a lot of plastic in the land-fill.

Now I have a Henry, it's lasted much longer than both Dysons put together and has far more power.

I do agree with his point about fair testing, but lets hope they count the amount of plastic you have to throw away when it packs up too, not to mention the oil needed to ship them in from Malaysia.

[handle]

I wonder how much of a "British-made" Henry is actually made here, and how much is shipped in from, say, Malaysia?

I had a DC01 and now have a DC24. The later models are a complete revelation, so don't base your opinion only on experience of earlier models.

[SirDigalot]

i don't care about efficiency

make the gosh forsaken things quieter!

never had a dyson, but cannot really imagine they are any different, our current cyclonic rip off style machine that I just replaced for less that $30 online does a good job... the filters, which also clog up like the toilet in a nightclub, cost around the same to replace... disposable life much?!

but my worst complaint is the noise, they all make this god awful racket. We bought a wet dry vac and it is about 1/2 as loud as the upright and has more suck then a $100 pro...well you get the idea...

the wife hates it too even though we have tile floors, she also insists on using the upright out back on the lanai even though we have the wet/dry vac for that reason! (well ok we bought it because our fridge water pipe sprung a leak one day but still)

I would love a nice quiet vacuum cleaner I cannot hear the washing machine at all even spinning surely they can make something that does not sound like it is about to explode***

*** I think I heard a rumour somewhere that they did once experiment with the whole "quiet" thing, and in a survey people thought that thr quiet one was not as powerful as the loud one even though they were the same power and suck... not sure if this is true but would make sense in a weird trick-cyclist explainable way

[Tom 7]

Re: i don't care about efficiency

I dont do hoovering - partly because I'm lazy but mainly at 6'5" there is not a single one on the market tall enough for me to use comfortably and not set of my 'ooh my back I'm off down the pub' problem.

And Dyson can rot in hell for glueing the carpet thing on the end of the pipe so you cant use if and the pull out 'expandable' plastic hose that's as giving as a rally suspension coil.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: i don't care about efficiency

My girlfriend just bought a new Bosch hoover and on the lowest power setting it is remarkably quiet - perfectly possible to have a conversation while it is on - and yet it is still quite capable of picking up all the detritus it is required to.

[Marvin O'Gravel Balloon Face]

"The EU wants to give hoovers an energy rating from A to G as part of its efforts to meet carbon emission cut targets".

Of course they do. The world's gone mad.

[Anonymous Coward]

A to G

What's wrong with the kwh or joules used during a standardised test?

What does the alphabet bring?

[handle]

Re: A to G

Some understanding to the 95% of the population who don't understand what kWh and joules are. (And it's likely to have absolute figures like that in small print next to the energy rating anyway, for those who want them.)

[Lottie]

Title

We have a dyson and it's very meh. Not a great deal of suction and seemingly more noise and bluster than work being done.

I used to have a cyclonic one made by VAX and that was superb. Shame I lost it during a house move :-(

Anyway, he has a point. I wonder if, like the suggestion about bags, we were to add in other environmental issues such as "shipping to the EU" how the figures would look?

[MJI]

Dyson Vacuum

Well ours is OK, given to us as the owner found the pipe too short, my wife fixed it by extending it!

Clean blue filter monthly, dismantle cyclone over few years and air blast it clean.

Pretty good, the worst bit is the power heads tend to wear out their brushes and they do not do the brush as a spare.

[James Hughes 1]

Vote from me for Dyson

Been very impressed with the two I've got (long story). Both the ball ones - a small one and a big one. Fantastic suction, really manoeuvrable with the ball, neither has ever gone wrong (oldest is >5 years I think). Easy to empty, one button, no mess. Only problem is they are a bit heavy, and the smaller ones cable is a tiny bit short for our house.

Occasional filter cleans and they are back to top performance. Note, I do not have any pets (except a small fish - does that count?)

Also have a Henry. Fine on hardfloors, as you might expect, but no-where near as good as the Dyson on piled carpets.

[J.G.Harston]

"James Dyson is challenging the EU's labelling policy for hoovers"

Why? If if's a Hoover labelling policy it's irrelevant to Dysons.

[J.G.Harston]

22 years ago I bought a Hoover vacuum cleaner. It fell apart after about three months. I replaced it with a Mecedes. I'm still using it. It's the Kalashnikov of vacuum cleaners. Pop the motor off, dunk the case in the sink, wipe it clean.

[JeffyPoooh]

Is price reflective of embodied resources, energy & manufacturing inefficiencies?

If so, then the Dyson at $600 is three times worse than a $200 machine.

[Pavonefan]

Dyson do not make Hoovers and Hoover do not make Dysons!

I have owned 2 Hoovers and a Dyson. The Hoovers were a washer/dryer and a fridge/freezer. I still have the Dyson which is a brilliant hand-held vacuum cleaner. The filters do need cleaning periodically, but it's no big deal.

[Not That Andrew]

Dyson make hoovers, just not Hoovers, it's not rocket science.

[andy 45]

Methinks Mr Dyson doth protest too much

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