Gratuitous Apple comment
I thought Apple had the patent on going round corners. Or did I misunderstand?...
British vacuum cleaner firm Dyson is suing Samsung for "ripping off" one of its inventions for its own Motion Sync hoover. Dyson claims that the new model, which the South Korean chaebol showed off at the IFA technology show in Berlin last week, infringes on its patent for a steering system for cylinder vacuum cleaners. "This …
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His hoovers (yes I know they're supposed to be called vacuum cleaners) are crap too. They weigh three times as much as others, take up three times as much space, look stupid, fall apart and are clumsy to use. The only thing going for them is the lack of a bag, which isn't really a big deal as they're no better at cleaning and changing a bag's hardly a big deal.
You missed the joke icon surely?
We have one of his upright cleaners. It's built like a tank, the suck is mega powerful and not having to buy bags all the time is great. Not only that you can practically unclip anything to remove screws and other large items accidentally picked up and blocking the thing.
It was a bit overpriced, but then we got it with some leaving present money.
Read his book: it's quite a revelation. The industry was so against bagless cleaners, now they're all "They're the best thing ever" now the Dyson cleaners are popular.
Dyson's no angel, but Hoover, Electrolux and the others are all shit bags.
I read his book too. Also worked there for many years.
The book is no longer true nor relevant. In fact a long way from it. Form follows function is dead - the whole of R&D (In Malmesbury at least; the parts in India, China, Malaysia are different) works in a warehouse that sounds like the cross between a squash court and swimmingpool. The desks are no longer made in house, and e.g. the metal bracket just to hold your PC to the desk costs an eye watering 180€. The desks were metal, and the keyboards/mice wireless so that they didn't work unless they were touching the recievers and used a set of batteries in a month. The filing cabinets are too small to take A4 paper, and you have to lock your laptop in it at the end of the day, but they don't fit). Putting a ball on a cylinder cleaner was all about being different, not about being better.
Oh, and while there I did a fair amount of reverse engineering of all sorts of other people's kit; we had every single other vacuum cleaner, handheld and various other things. There were also requests not to write anything down, not to use email and not to save anything on a PC on the network to prevent it being found later during "discovery".
Well, I've never owned one myself, but my mother has one and so does a friend who I lived with for a few months while my house was being renovated. I guess the overall feel is sturdy. But when you want to use the hose attachment (this was an upright) which you invariably have to, not only do you have to take the hose out, but also a large unnecessary chunk of plastic it's attached to. Then the hose itself will come out the end without you wanting to, forcing you to turn the damn thing off to put it back together. The button you press to angle the upright part (in order to push it) sticks too. And trying to clean staircases is nigh on impossible because the bloody thing won't stay upright. Maybe the non-upright model is more useful.
It's a hell of a lot better than the run-of-the-mill competition, but compared to something in the same league it's not. I've got a Miele one which I was sceptical about forking out for at first but it's built well, quiet, powerful and easy to use. It's over a decade old now though and runs like it did when I bought it. I've treated it like crap too, using it for building work.
I think the biggest problem is he had such a simple, good idea, and put it into an unnecessarily over-complicated, over-sized, impractical package. The washing machine he did was even worse. Big and stupid. The rotor-less fan, however, is a fantastic piece of kit.
When the Dyson first hit the states, we gave them a try. We have a house full of pets so you can imagine why we liked having a Dyson... But over the years, it wore out and it was time for a new one.
Unlike the first model, the new one felt cheaper and was a pain to use. Joints would freeze up, couldn't get the extension out of the handle. It lasted 2 years till we said the hell with it.
We replaced it with a Miele and even though its a bagged machine, it works great. Should last us 15-20 years or longer. We paid more than for other models, but we tend to buy things that last longer and want the best quality products we can afford.
If we had to guess, we'd say that Dyson cut corners on quality when they got really popular. Its a shame really.
And the AC is spot on. Gimmicks sell.
How often was 'all the time'? I have not used a Dyson, on a recommendation of a Vaccum cleaner repair shop a few years ago I bought a Sebo. The guy there believed it'd run for 20 years. I have since noticed several hotel operators using them as well, so can't be all bad. Pretty $$ though was around $800. It uses bags of course and I have replaced the bags a few times, always before the vaccum asked me to though(usually because it just gets pretty heavy with a near full bag and I'm lazy so want it lighter and switch the bag). I think on average it has been ~8-10 months between bag switches. So maybe 5 bags in 4 years?
My last vaccum was a hoover I think, a bag less, self proclaiming "never have to change the filter". The filter got clogged so bad it wouldn't suck at all anymore, took it to this repair shop, took what seemed like 3 months to get the filter replaced(it did not have a user replaceable filter).
I didn't buy the Sebo from the repair shop I bought it online. But it seems high quality, so far no issues. I plan to replace the brush as well as air filter too (which they claim only needs to be replaced about once every 30-40 bags or something like that so well ahead of schedule), for no other reason then I feel like it(also the component cost was pretty cheap).
It feels like the suction is just about as good now as it was new, certainly could not say the same about the hoover or the dirt devil I had before the hoover.
From sebo's website:
"Also, all SEBO bags are large capacity, so they hold about 10 times the debris volume, as compared to the debris capacity of dirt containers found on typical bagless vacuums."
Which seems on par with my experience, at least the frequency of me emptying the 'bagless' one is probably 10x more often than replacing the bags on the sebo.
Sebo's certainly aren't the most flashy vaccums out there... I had personally never heard of them until this one guy recommended them to me. Since then I have had my eyes out and see them fairly frequently in commercial environments.
Hopefully I really can go 20 years before getting a new one!
There's nothing stopping a cyclonic cleaner having a bag, if designed correctly. By the time you add enough filtration to stop fine dust being sprayed around the room the level of suck is equally poor on both types.
Most blockages I've encountered are in the hose and that will happen anyway.
Interestingly, you can more than double the effectiveness of a vac by venting the exhaust downwards just ahead of the suction nozzle. The patent is held by a nice UK gentleman in his 80s (I've chatted to him a few times) who seems determined to hold out for a UK maker to implement it (I told him not to bother, he'd live comfortably in his retirement on royalties if he licensed it worldwide)
If you really don't want a room full of fine dust, fit a house vac system, or get a large shop-vac-style system and park it outside, with a long hose.
My experience is quite the contrary. I find his vacuum cleaners to be far more powerful than the alternatives, able to take a large amounts of abuse - think sucking up large amounts of plaster, brick dust, wood shavings etc, and still keep going. Not only that but they have a service policy that makes financial sense. There's no way I would call a service engineer out for a Hoover, as the cost would be the same as buying a new one, if not more. Dyson will almost completely replace your machine, including new hoses for a fixed fee of £79.
I just wish they made more home appliances. The last time my Bosch dishwasher broke, it cost me a £120 call out fee, and the guy couldn't fix it. We'd have been better off just buying a new one.
Next time you have a home appliance problem, get one of those "we fix it for a fixed fee or you don't pay" callouts - last one I did was £120, and for that got a new PCB for the dishwasher (list price > £120 IIRC).
Annoyingly though, I fixed the old PCB in about 5 minutes - bad solder joint on the heater circuit - problem being I couldn't find it in the dishwasher....still, I now have a spare AND I know where to find the PCB since I watched the guy fix it.
Wrote :- "There's no way I would call a service engineer out for a Hoover, as the cost would be the same as buying a new one, if not more. Dyson will almost completely replace your machine, including new hoses for a fixed fee of £79"
You are comparing apples with pears. The Dyson scenario you describe is called insurance, while the Hoover scenario is an at-cost call-out. You can get insurance for most appliances - in fact people like Currys fall over themselves to sell appliance insurance.
Personally, I have neither insurance nor have I ever called out a repairman on an at-cost basis. Both are rip-offs. Every breakdown I have ever experienced is either an easy repair or the signal for the end of a long hard life. For example have just scrapped a 15 yo Electrolux vacuum after years of hard work - a plasic moulding had worn through with gradual abrasion.
As for Dyson making more home appliances, you obviously would like to live in what would look like the interior of a Lego house in Toytown. Perhaps you are unaware that Dyson did start marketing some fixed appliances some years ago, but they looked so garishly silly that even Dyson Fanbois walked away. His stuff is the hardware equivalent of tecno-babble - pointless plastic-moulded frippery that looks like from a 1950 sci-fi set. I do believe Dyson himself must be colour blind, in addition to his many other faults.
"think sucking up large amounts of plaster, brick dust, wood shavings etc, and still keep going. Not only that but they have a service policy that makes financial sense. "
One of my friends has had 3 warranty claims denied by Dyson because they'd been "sucking the wrong kind of dust."
Needless to say she doesn't buy 'em any more.
" just wish they made more home appliances. The last time my Bosch dishwasher broke, it cost me a £120 call out fee, and the guy couldn't fix it. We'd have been better off just buying a new one."
No you don't. Look at the Wikipedia article about their washing machines. They weren't particularly reliable.
Like others we've had Electrolux cleaners that have fallen apart after 8 months, the stubby little Dyson we have now has lasted for 4 years so far, granted it only comes out 2-3 times a week but it's not needed any new parts and is working as well as the day we got it.
Wrote :- "The only thing going for them is the lack of a bag"
You lost me there. And the "advantage" of the lack of a bag is?
What we are talking about is actually a disposable bag. My mother had an early Hoover with no disposable bag. It had a cloth bag that you had to empty into the dustbin (remember when they were called "dustbins"?). In doing this you were lucky not to get the crap all over you, especially if there was a bit of wind at the time.
Then disposable bags came along and they were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread. No more dust in your face when you emptied the crap.
Then Dyson comes along and we are back in my mother's Hoover situation again - emptying a Dyson cylinder is the equivalent of emptying the old Hoover cloth bag. I refer to Dyson vacuums and the clones as "dust storm hoovers". Am I missing soemthing?
Anyway, WTF does anyone want to see their crap in a transparent cylinder? I thought the point of hoovering crap up was because you did not want to see it any more.
Read about Dyson and you'll see that he is exactly the sort of person we need in this country.
He invented the cyclone suction system and showed it to Hoover, they didn't want it since they were making a fortune selling bags and other accessories.
So he started his own company making vacuum cleaners.
It is no surprise that other companies copied the technology when they saw it was popular and wanted by the public. So why should he roll over and let Hoover and others simply copy what he did when they weren't interested in his ideas?
Samsung make crap vacuum cleaners, so it is no wonder they are copying the successful product, just like they copied the successful phone.
If you are British why on Earth would you want some South Korean knock off company to destroy a British company?
I like Dyson cleaners but don't kid yourself that he "invented" cyclone cleaners. I worked on industrial cyclone extraction systems while Dyson was knocking out Ball Barrows.
Dyson found a novel application for an existing and well known technology. Very clever and inovative but he didn't invent it.
We've had our Dyson for about 12 years or more and it's still going strong (a DC04 I think).
I sucked up a load of building dust rubble and burnt out the motor (my fault I'd removed the filters for cleaning and forgot to replace them) but Dyson replaced the motor and I've had 12 years trouble free since.
I see lots of Dysons at our local refuse tip, but they are about the most popular vacuum and one of the guys there told me most of them are fine and just have bunged up filters - 10 mins cleaning and they're good as new.
Yes it's heavy, yes it's ugly (in a functionally transparent way that I like) but they work well and are reliable.
James Dyson is an 'orrible little man with a history of thrashing the crap out of the talented designers that work for him, but here the simple fact is that Samsung ripped him off. Anybody with half an eye can see this. I wish him luck with his lawsuit, if only for the team of dedicated professionals working for him who deserve better than this.
Well, you've had years to fix the potentially lethal and poorly engineered hose on the DC 25 Mr Dyson. Where is it?
Downvote away. I have a DC25 and know the unpopular truth.
Also: Never looses suction, true, but won't clean so much as a paper punching off the floor if the carpet beater gets clogged, as it will in a real house.
on the other hand I have a DC04 upright that is still going years after I received it as a hand-me-down
and on the other other hand the DC05 cylinder model that was another hand-me-down had to be junked when the switch in the handle went. But until then it could suck the carpet off the stairs if I wasn't careful.
I did want to try to fix the switch but it was a tricky slide arrangement with some sort of chip or transistor block or chip incorporated - outside my skills and the repair shop quoted more than I could stomach. Fortunately I was offered a second hand Dyson upright for a ridiculously cheap sum.
I did want to try to fix the switch but it was a tricky slide arrangement with some sort of chip or transistor block or chip incorporated - outside my skills and the repair shop quoted more than I could stomach. Fortunately I was offered a second hand Dyson upright for a ridiculously cheap sum."
You do realise that Dyson do fixed price servicing including parts? Had our DC07 almost rebuilt a few years back: New motor, beater bar clutch, belt, cyclone, post motor filter, etc., for about sixty quid.
Glad to see you have three hands. You'll need them with a DC25. One to hold the wand, one to stretch out the hose as it tries to collapse back down from nowhere near the "18 feet" advertised to about three feet of rigid pipe and the third to fend of the DC25 as it keeps running up for a hug as you clean.
I wouldn't mind but this is such a blatantly obvious non-working part of the "I just think things should work" design it should not have been recapitulated in later designs as it was.
Also, the design of the hose fixing is not fit for purpose. Mine broke humorously close to the warranty expiration period when one of the two (!) plastic(!) tabs that take the entire strain of the hose pulling against the vacuum as you extend the wand - which is magnified if anything so much as partially blocks the suction - sheared off. Rather than fork over $50 for a new hose (can't get the bit that broke as a separate item of course) I improvised a proper metal tab.
Cleaning a sofa with a DC25 is so difficult it is hard to see how people can downvote with a clear conscience.
Of course I realize I'm supposed to just buy a Dyson portable to do those sorts of job. No-one really thinks the DC25 wand is for actually cleaning anything.
telling another snake oil trader not to sell snake oil that claims to be as effective as his snake oil.
While he might have a point, if Samsung's vacuum cleaners are copies of Dyson's then they're another brand I wouldn't consider.
Numatic Henry, the Nokia 3310 of the vacuum cleaner world, for the win!
Paris, because, well, you know . . . ;-)
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Although there's no Dyson in my house either. Too expensive and the reviews regularly are horrible. That said, the Samsung I have on the other hand is fantastic to use. Has suction power galore for such a tiny thing, and is also bag-less. Empty, rinse, dry, re-use.
The Dyson fans are lovely to look at though...
Interestingly, this is the approach that Brompton uses for their folding bikes. Went to a talk by the guy who runs the company (not the original designer - this guy took over from him) and he said the patent files are like a little design library for Chinese bike companies - they pick out a patent, and get a handy reference guide for exactly how to rip off a design.
They stay ahead of the game through innovation in the manufacturing process - the design of their bikes makes it really hard to manufacture if you don't have the custom designed tooling they have created.
New ones are absolute fine. Got two of the ball ones (long story), can't remember the DC numbers. Utterly excellent devices, the smaller older one is about 5 years old, a bit whiny now (my mother didn't realise you needed to actually empty them...) but still sucking the carpet off the floor. The big one is brilliant. The ball is an utterly great idea, and since all the filters etc are removable and cleanable, there's been nothing to replace since they have never gone wrong. Compared with the Henry, there is no real comparison, for actually cleaning, the Dyson's win hands down.
Not sure what devices some of the other posters here are using, but they don't resemble the Dysons I have used at all.
You have to "service" a vacuum cleaner?
One might have thought that some clever soul would have come up with a design that doesn't need servicing.
Oh, yes, right you are, someone has: over 40 years ago, some clever dudes started Numatic. Change a bag, and you're cleaning again. No waiting for a "service", or a filter to dry.
Samsung up to its usual tricks, wait for another company to do the hard graft to make something useable and then copy it. Hmmm wonder where I have seen that before :S
If Dyson is so rubbish why do they sell so much ? I find it hard to believe that so many posters on this thread have touched a vacuum cleaner in the last 6 months.
Judging by the couple of broken Dysons that a friend has had, it's certainly bollocks of some kind or another.
Also Dyson did not invent bagless vacuum cleaners. The guy did however, take an already-existing technology - that of using cyclones to separate stuff - and stick a hose on the end. There's plenty of bagless designs that are basically a solid dust container with a filter at one end. While some manufacturers might have had a razor blade business model with the bags, nowhere near all did.
I still remember le Mother's old Goblin quite fondly. Of course, now it's a Henry.
Cyclonic separation is certainly not new, Dyson just came up with the idea for using it as a domestic vacuum cleaner and the marketing to go with it.
There are patents going back decades to the thirties and beyond for cyclonic separation for saw mills and other dust and fluids applications
A friend of mine has a house, parts of which were built by arabic immigrants to Ibiza 400 years ago, in the grounds is a rainwater catchment area that has a channel taking the water to a cistern, just before the water goes down into the cistern there is a kink in the channel that creates a vortex in the flow so that leaves or any foreign bodies in the water are thrown to the edge where they are trapped.
Not quite a new technology.
Not quite all he did either. He also designed a really powerful, yet very small electric motor, along with a very efficient fan. I suspect the design of his cyclones are also 'not simple'.
Shame he never perfected the washing machine. I really liked mine.
I do believe the Americans TRIED that with Korea......are you suggesting maybe we should have North Korea, East Korea, West Korea and South Korea?
The only thing the Koreans are doing is what the US / Japan used to do, how does this make them bad?
If the US are so concerned by the Chinese they should build all their tech in the US.
Dyson are one of those companies that brag on its TV adverts about the patents it holds.
This is the reason the most recent vacuum I purchased was not a Dyson. If you feel the need to lock others out of competition with patents / legal threats rather than being assured that your greater know-how gained from the r&d allows you to deliver a better physical product than those imitating you then I'm not interested in purchasing your product.
They (think they) are the Apple of home appliances.
What about that amazing washing machine of theirs?
The advertising boast about "no loss of suction" is BS - you have to clean / replace filters or it'll be rather asthmatic - no different to a bag cleaner - besides - who wants to see the puke inducing horrible mess it sucks up into a "nice" clear plastic container for you to admire? A nice indicator is believable enough for me, I am not naturally distrustful of vacuum cleaners and have to see PROOF it's full. What next Dyson, a transparent toilet?
Never by one of the bag less, they are just a marketing trick. Perfectly awful to clean. I have dumped two in two years. A bag is much easier and faster. My wife did not believe me until I demanded she do the cleaning after I do the hoovering. Nothing as stupid as one of those bag less I cannot think of-
Considering Dysons products can mostly be traced back to patents that pre-existed and were then modified slightly and made yellow. The cyclonic vac core principle was basically a clone of a pre-existing dust extraction system sold for wood working shops and other places where machinery created dust, the dyson bladeless fan (which is a copy of another expired patent from the east) : http://tiny.cc/yqe92w which they admit was basically identical but they put a larger curve on the air dispenser part to increase the air multiplication effect. Its nice to see im not alone in my hate of Dyson at large. Dont forget the big line was originally all the stuff was prices so high as it was all made in the uk and you were supporting a completely uk operated company... where as not so long after the vac took off he moved virtually all production outside the uk to cut overheads and did the price drop to reflect this... you bet it didnt...!
Dyson are so badly designed they almost remind me of Apple products. I have a upright Dyson and the only good thing about it is that it sucks. Apart from that it way too heavy, has stupendously complex plastic tubing that breaks or falls off, cheap plastic handles that snap, top heavy so it falls over all the time, requires handle dissasembly and reversal to use the hose, the expandable hose shrinks when it is on so that you fight with it all the time, it will not sit on an average stair making stair HOOVERING impossible, the carpet beater thing gets too easily clogged rendering the machine useless, the tube inside the dust cylinder gets clogged all the time, it has no auto flex tidy, the lower unit is too big so that you can not get it under a radiator, fucking etc.
And what really irritates me is that Dyson are much vaunted for their design skills. If they have skills, its marketing.
Thrown away our third Dyson today (DC27 animal, for two black dogs that shed hair like it's going out of fashion, the motor had burned out spectacularly), funnily the skip at the tip already had a visually identical Dyson in there. Just moved onto an upright Miele, and it actually fits under cabinets and chairs, with a far better hose for doing the stairs (from the bottom, our stairs are steep enough you'd not get any hoover to sit on them), plus the carpets look cleaner than the Dyson had been managing - it does have a longer leccy cable though, and no retraction system for it.
While checking user reviews for a new vacuum, I noticed a lot of them saying vaccum X was better than their old or broken Dyson... I know they've dumped build quality by making them a lot more from plastic than they used to be, so presumably the lack of quality/durability is also an issue.
Mine doesn't need to sit on a stair - put it at the bottom of the stairs and the hose easily reaches to the top. The carpet beater is easy to clean. It fits under radiators, chairs, beds etc. None of the bits has ever dropped off. I enjoy the good design every time I use it (which isn't as often as it should be).
well dysons are the best but they make you pay and they're by no means perfect. the hoses break instantly etc.
hopefully sammy will drive the prices down because I shouldnt need a mortgage to use the latest generation of vacuum technology. it should not be the case that only one company can implement something that amounts to a necessity.
This patent business is nonsense. Why should a company earn a living from work they already did?
If we abolished patents, companies would be forced to compete with eachother, by constantly doing new work (driving the economy forwards). It's the patent system that's put the breaks on our faltering economy, because every year it grows by attrition and every year new business men face a tougher challenge before they even go into business.
I say, let the chips fall where they may, let companies rehash and reuse ideas, and see if that doesn't kick start your precious fucking economy. Because I'll tell you one thing that won't kick start it: another housing bubble.
> This patent business is nonsense. Why should a company earn a living from work they already did?
Because the work that you have to do isn't paid for since you have to do it all before you sell a single thing.
That's the whole point of patents, to make it worthwhile doing the R&D.
The fact is patents are probably far too long now, since technology allows stuff to get to market a lot quicker, but the idea is still sound.
Why does anyone want a vacuum cleaner like that, anyways?
I just take the hose out of the closet and plug it into the wall. The vacuum - still in the closet - starts up, and a whole lot of sucking is accompanied by a muffled sound(if I remember to close the door to the closet). The noisiest part is when It sucks up salty peanuts from under the couch...
Doesn't need a HEPA filter, either, as it exhausts to outside the house. ;-)
Another vote for the Henry Numatic, mine must be over 10 years old now and still goes great guns. Plus Numatics own brand bags are cheaper than the "generic hoover bag" knock offs you find down the market. And if having a bag really bothers you, you can use a Henry without in an emergency and it still works!
Although I've never seen the point in the Lo - Hi switch? As Rhod Gilber said, why would you want to only partly clean the floor? "I'll put it in low so I can leave some of the dust there for next time!"