back to article NSA slides reveal: iPhone users are all ZOMBIES

Spooks at the US National Security Agency (NSA) can't believe we're all paying for the equipment it's using to spy on us, describing Steve Jobs as Big Brother and iPhone buyers as "zombies". That assertion comes from NSA documents leaked to Germany's Spiegel Online. The self-promoting presentation, purportedly an internal NSA …

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  1. Real Ale is Best

    Android

    More likely that the NSA have paid Google to include a back door of some sort, though this would be harder to hide, given that the code is open sourced.

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      Re: Android

      Why pay anyone when a simple buffer overrun will do the job?

      The fact is that the NSA are being paid to do this job and it's silly to run crying to mother about it. We simply need to sharpen up our act (as law abiding members of the programming community) and write much better code for these devices that gives us true privacy if that's what we want. Alternatively we could simply learn to live in the daylight and admit our social sins - which are, in most cases, all we're hiding.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Android @Version 1.0

        "Alternatively we could simply learn to live in the daylight and admit our social sins - which are, in most cases, all we're hiding."

        The problem with that is that all our little foibles can be used to manipulate, inconvenience and/or oppress us. Living in the light would be fine if everybody could be relied on to be a little open minded and allow others a little wiggle room; but that isn't the world we live in.

        Not only that, but things change. Stuff that might be OK now may become unacceptable in the future. When I were a lad, going to the local gravel pit and blowing a few plants up with homebrew explosives was just part of being a teenage boy...nowadays not so much.

        Smoking weed is regarded as fairly harmless these days; but can still get you arrested. Or maybe someone is into BDSM but has a religious employer with "views". There are good reasons not to let everybody know everything. Not just for now; but also what use someone malign may make of that information in the future.

        1. Benjol

          Re: Android @Version 1.0

          "Alternatively we could simply learn to live in the daylight and admit our social sins - which are, in most cases, all we're hiding."

          "Thought" experiment:

          The technology develops further. Now they can read your thoughts.

          Still OK with that?

        2. Fazal Majid

          Re: Android @Version 1.0

          Within living memory, J Edgar Hoover tried to blackmail Martin Luther King into committing suicide, by threatening to expose MLK's extramarital affairs.

          No one can be entrusted with this unfettered power, unless we want our democracy to turn into a Putinesque siloviki state.

          1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
            FAIL

            Re: Fazal Majid Re: Android @Version 1.0

            ".....J Edgar Hoover tried to blackmail Martin Luther King into committing suicide, by threatening to expose MLK's extramarital affairs......" Wrong. The intimidation of King was driven by the Kennedys in the Whitehouse, was due to King's close association with suspected KGB agents Stan Levison and Jack O'Dell, and was not driven by Hoover. All the surveilance on King was ordered and authorized by JFK's brother, Attroney General Robert Kennedy. The Kennedys were driven by quite simple worries about re-election if they were associated with a "Commie" civil rights campaigner, but it's another example of the lefties revisioning of history to protect their martyr JFK's reputation. Hoover's personal animosity towards King was due to King claiming that FBI agents in the South were "too friendly" with the KKK, a grandstanding smear against his beloved FBI that Hoover could not forgive. But Hoover still debunked attempts by people like George Wallace to slander King as a "Communist trainer", and sent FBI agents to protect King from assassination by white supremacists. Try reading more history and watching less movies.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Android

        > live in the daylight and admit our social sins

        Unless you work for an oil company outside the USA - in which case apparently you are targeted in the national interest.

        1. Alien8n

          Re: Android

          So so true, even in the UK. Last time my uncle came home he was strip searched (complete with cavity search). Reason? He had been sent to Iraq to inspect the oil wells there and they detected traces of "explosives" on his passport when he came back through customs.

          He's a health and safety manager for a large oil company, trained in emergency first aid (the hard way, on the Uganda in the Falklands) and with handling explosives. It would be more suspicious if there weren't traces of explosives on him.

      3. marcyd

        Re: Android

        What absolute tosh. Social sins - so in other words, the usual "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".

        What about corporate espionage carried out by the NSA for American companies? Do EU business people have anything to fear about that? What about the fact they know damn well that terrorists evade these measures easily, indicating this is about SOCIAL CONTROL, not terrorism?

        Can't you see that the world is hotting up with protests, repressive measures such as increasing militarisation of the police? Western governments learnt from the arab spring only too well. The increasing surveillance of the public is totally in line with what governments and others can see approaching a mile away, even if you are indolently complacent.

        Social sins, my arse.

      4. Uffish

        Re: living in the daylight

        Yeah, I don't mind the spooks (or Google etc) knowing that I have looked at porn, have checked the spelling of Al Qaeda on the internet (my spellchecker suggests Qaddafi) etc. What concerns me is that the spooks (naturally enough) want to have the least amount of oversight and restrictions on their activities and Google considers it's role in life is to snuggle up with Creepy.

        Much more informed public oversight is needed before all this snooping is acceptable.

      5. Potemkine Silver badge

        Re: Android

        "Alternatively we could simply learn to live in the daylight and admit our social sins - which are, in most cases, all we're hiding."

        Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Blacklight
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Android

      That "back door" is more than likely "on the wire" and/or an access gateway in a providers DC(s). Nearly all the mechanisms out there (GSM, HTTPS etc) are "data in transit" methods, not "data at rest".

      Once at rest, data is much easier to manipulate. If it's encrypted at rest, handing over keys is also easier as there is no session "fun" to play with (or your data is signed with 'your' key, the providers key and 'any other key duly requested to be included').

      As per the article, you go for the point of least resistance/easiest entry - in the iPhone example, it's the attached computer. In other darkened rooms, it's a rubber hose.

      I wonder when "utilizing encryption for the hell of it" will become "obstructing officers in the course of their duties".....(never mind being asked to hand over keys under RIPA)

      1. FromTheRoot

        Re: Android

        Another recent article highlighted how Google was removing whatever services it can from the core Android OS - helping towards beating fragmentation which Android is well known for.

        http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/

        As these features are now included in the "Google Play Service" - which has pretty much every permission assigned to it, if you use Google Apps - which everyone seemingly does including myself, then they have the ability to install anything on your phone, without any notice to the unsuspecting user so Android is probably the easiest to hack currently! If you disable the service, no Google apps continue to work!! then again if you use the apps, all your e-mails/calendar/google searches are all up in the cloud anyway!!

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Android

          It is possible to have an Android device without using Google Play if your use of the device is specific and fairly modest; but there is a price to pay...YouTube and other Google services don't work well (pretty sure that it's deliberate as it happened suddenly) with unregistered devices.

          I use mine as a book reader; to email myself notes back from client meetings and good ideas from the pub (it's amazing what you think of around the 3-pint mark); and as an offline Spanish <--> English dictionary and I got all the necessary from here:

          http://www.freewarelovers.com/android

          ...also to solve the occasional pub argument: "£5 says the Bronze Age was before the Iron Age" sort of thing.

          I just didn't like the idea of registering the device and permanently tagging myself, so I didn't.

    4. silent_count
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Android

      The same applies to mobiles as PCs. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the OS is completely bulletproof, security-wise. How many apps do you have installed? Just for me: a RSS fetcher, two browsers, two camera apps, a few for post-processing pics, half a dozen games, an e-book reader, music player, video player, a couple of text editors, a grep tool, and a whole battery of 'system' tools... and that's not including the stuff that comes with CyanogenMod.

      Are each and every one of them secure? I think it's safer to assume that your phone, regardless of brand/OS/vendor, is compromised and thus keep anything genuinely sensitive well away from it.

      PS: To the NSA bods who've seen my shopping list. It's for a lamb vindaloo. Feel free to drop by around, you know where and when. ;p

      1. Gannon (J.) Dick
        Pint

        Re: Android

        Remember the NSA has seen what your friends ^really^ say about your lamb vindaloo.

        Keep friends, Free Beer.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Android back door, but open source?

      Presumably "they" might, if "they" were naughty, install/push backdoored binaries based on code only very slightly deviating from what "they" open source; and it would be nigh on impossible to tell. That'd cover the vast majority of android devices, I'd have thought.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Android

      "When it comes to an iPhone, the best approach, according to the documents seen by Spiegel Online, is hacking the computer to which it is connected"

      So what they are saying (indirectly) is that it's actually not so easy to hack an iPhone itself rather than get the information from a less secure desktop PC.

  2. nematoad Silver badge
    Unhappy

    No surprise there.

    Before the end of the Cold War, these agencies, NSA, GCHQ and so on had a role to play in keeping watch on the enemy without. i.e. The USSR. Now that things have warmed up a little the agencies have to justify their existence so have targeted the enemy within, us.

    The use of words such as adversary, defeat , subversion clearly show the mind set of these people, that they are at war with their own populations. Never mind that the tactics used maybe illegal, there's a war on and after all you have to have something to show your political masters to justify the empires that have been built up. In the absence of an external foe, an internal one will do just as well

    Who is this effort for? This talk of freedom and security. It certainly is not the general public.. Maybe it's for the state within a state that is the security apparatus.

    1. Gordon 10

      Re: No surprise there.

      Oh pulease. Can the hysteria. Just because they have the capability to conduct a "war" in your words doesnt mean they actually are. If we are to have a reasoned debate and get some of this idiocy stopped panic and hyperbole are the tools of them - not us.

      1. nematoad Silver badge

        Re: No surprise there.

        If you are not convinced that we are regarded as "targets" then take a look at this article in the Guardian:

        http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-gchq-encryption-codes-security

        Then tell me that we are regarded as adversaries of the security agencies.

        Note the strapline on the GCHQ slide "PTD. We penetrate targets' defenses."

        1. tom dial Silver badge

          Re: No surprise there.

          The referenced article describe things that improve NSA' s and GCHQ's ability to perform their officially stated missions. The fact that they could be used wrongly is not evidence that they are being misused in fact. While I do not doubt that there have been instances of abuse, there seems to be a lack of evidence that it is either common or a matter of government policy.

          So yes, it may be time to tune down the hysteria and address the question of how controls are to be put in place to ensure against improper use, since it is most unlikely that either NSA or GCHQ (or any of their counterparts in most or all other countries) will be shut down or have their basic activities constrained in any major way.

          For now, I plan to generally follow Bruce Schneier's advice at

          http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-how-to-remain-secure-surveillance

          1. ecofeco Silver badge

            Re: No surprise there.

            Tom Dial, history shows the "hysteria" is in fact, warranted and justified.

        2. Otto is a bear.

          Re: No surprise there.

          The term Adversary is used by the security business as a whole to describe hackers, terrorists, spies and criminals, basically groups who actively oppose them, it is not used to describe everybody. No western security agency has the capability of doing anything more than monitoring chatter, and then acting on triggers for key individuals. You just have to think of the costs and logistics involved in doing anything more than this to realise how silly the idea that they are watch everybody. They may have data on the vast majority of people, but only a fraction of a percentage of people will ever be looked at.

          So far as living in the light goes, if you think smoking pot, and a load of other stuff we do when we are young would stop you getting a job, it won't, because if you are open about it, it can't be used as leverage against you, unless you are still doing it.

          I read the Guardians article in full, and several others, being a Guardian reader, their articles are coloured a particular way to back their position on Internet freedom, in fact this is more like Daily Mail journalism than anything else, make the people afraid of something they don't understand. It isn't balanced. It is true that anyone could be a target, but that does not mean everybody is. The people you want security services to monitor are Organised Criminals, Spies, Terrorists, Foreign Governments, People with access to very sensitive information, Economic Competition, and Infiltration Targets, they really don't have time to look at all of these, let alone anyone else.

      2. marcyd

        Re: No surprise there.

        No more moronic responses about "hysteria" and "tin foil hattery". That was acceptable BEFORE Snowden's admissions. When you spit that out, you are the only one who looks out of touch with reality, sonny.

      3. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: No surprise there.

        Before the end of the cold war, they spied on CND, Greenpeace, opposition parties, trade unions journalists.

        Now they spy on families of people shot by the police, families of people murdered where the police did nothing, people who object to fracking, animal rights campaigners.

        And these are the cases where they actually bothered to insert actual agents - who do they spy on when it's more work to exclude somebody from a sweep than include them?

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Big Brother

          Re: No surprise there.

          I have to say I cannot adapt myself to the New Times and cannot feel shock about NSA shenanigans either. It's like it was somehow still okay.

          Oldthinkers unbellyfeel the Listening, reckon.

          With all the snooping one would think the War on Terror would be "won" in a jiffy. But now, it's getting worse by the hour, soon with Pakistan on the Rio Grande. What gives? What are they doing?? Aren't they keeping us safe?

      4. ecofeco Silver badge

        Re: No surprise there.

        Gordon 10, I dare you to bet your life on it.

    2. Schultz

      Watch the enemy within...

      When I read about almost a million people with security clearance in the US, I gotta agree with nematoad about the state within the state. Why would they, rationally, need so many secrets and such a large bureaucracy handling secrets? It looks like a runaway bureaucracy. The politicians talked about perpetual war (on drugs, on terror) for so long that it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, backed by a good old-fashioned state bureaucracy (well, let's call it modern, with all those companies and consultants on the gravy train).

      1. Otto is a bear.

        Re: Watch the enemy within...

        Just because you are security cleared does not mean you are involved in the security apparatus, it just means you are trusted to handle sensitive information to a certain level. In the UK all civil servants are security cleared, the level of that clearance will depend on the information they handle. The same is true for all employees of government contractors. Would you want your tax information handled by people who were not cleared. The vast bulk of cleared civil servants work for the DWP and HMRC.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No surprise there.

      It is not just that.

      It looks like they have used their knowledge of the defeated enemy outside to justify their existance by creating the enemy within.

      The USSR National Security Agency (ok, it was called committee, not agency, but, not far off) has used the enemy within technique since the days when it was called NKVD. Initially, Stalin blamed everyone who could potentially threaten him as an enemy and any local "usual suspects" queued for termination as their supporters. That worked well till ~ 1935. After Trozky was assassinated the choice of external enemies dwindled to the point where they had to be invented. So KGB invented the Trust (lovely mythical organization, almost as "real" as Al Qaeda), the Russian Party, etc. It is much easier to assign a membership to a mythical organization - less proof necessary. So this allowed it to purge all of those who were potentially subversive. Millions marched down the death road to Kolyma, into the desert beyond the Kazachstan steppes or into the the Uranium and rare earth mines of the "Jewish Soviet Republic". While some of that started initially as Stalin's paranoia it soon became an endless enemy within campaign designed to keep employed the grown out of control security apparatus. That continued all the way until the fall of USSR.

      Frankly, what Graunidad, Spiegel and New Yourk Times are dragging out starts to look very familar. Scarily familiar.

  3. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    The bottom line *so* far.

    Buy RIM.

    Don't visit dodgy web sites.

    Don't allow anyone or thing to install apps you don't know about.

    Keep the battery out as much as possible (and make sure anyone you're talking to does the same, if you want you're conversations to stay private).

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      Re: The bottom line *so* far.

      "Don't write anything you can phone.

      Don't phone anything you can talk.

      Don't talk anything you can whisper.

      Don't whisper anything you can smile.

      Don't smile anything you can nod.

      Don't nod anything you can wink.”

      Earl K. Long.

      1. Potemkine Silver badge
    2. Daniel B.

      Re: The bottom line *so* far.

      Interesting. So it does seem that my views have been vindicated yet again with holding on to BlackBerry.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The bottom line *so* far.

        "Interesting. So it does seem that my views have been vindicated yet again with holding on to BlackBerry."

        I doubt it. I seem to recall Blackberry having to provide back doors to various rather dodgy governments before they were allowed to sell their devices, and that all came out years before Snowden did the decent thing. How would Blackberry be allowed to sell devices in the US if the Stasi weren't able to intercept?

        1. Z-Eden

          Re: The bottom line *so* far.

          I assume you referring to articles such as these: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/02/rim_keys_india/

          In which case, I'd say no keys were handed out nor were backdoors made (though, in the current climate, I concede that doesn't mean one doesn't exists in some fashion). Unless there's a story I missed?

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: The bottom line *so* far.

          The Blackberry is secure if you are running your own BES. If you are using one provided by your phone company then in the words of Nelson Muntz "haw haw"

    3. Z-Eden

      Re: The bottom line *so* far.

      Another vindication to my recent purchase of the BlackBerry Z10.

      As an aside, seriously nice phone, very intuitive. I occasionally swipe up on my ipad and wonder why it won't quit to the home screen...

    4. VinceH
      Trollface

      Re: The bottom line *so* far.

      "Keep the battery out as much as possible (and make sure anyone you're talking to does the same, if you want you're conversations to stay private)."

      Ah, so the iPhone not sporting a removable battery is NSA's contribution to its design.

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

        Re: The bottom line *so* far.

        Just turn it iff and wrap it in 'Tinfoil'/tin box/filmsafe pouch

        after putting it in flight mode naturally.

    5. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Re: The bottom line *so* far.

      At this rate I'm going to go back to the Commodore Amiga and Nokia Communicator.

    6. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: The bottom line *so* far.

      Well, an upvote for at least paying enough attention in the article to make a sane technical judgement, but yo seem to have fallen asleep during the crucial part:

      "....if the NSA wants to know everything you see and hear....." Trust me, the vast majority of you are of no interest to anyone.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: The bottom line *so* far.

        "Trust me, the vast majority of you are of no interest to anyone."

        https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/conspiracy_theo_1.html

        "The NSA has repeatedly lied about the extent of its spying program. James R. Clapper, the director of national intelligence, has lied about it to Congress. Top-secret documents provided by Edward Snowden, and reported on by the Guardian and other newspapers, repeatedly show that the NSA's surveillance systems are monitoring the communications of American citizens. The DEA has used this information to apprehend drug smugglers, then lied about it in court. The IRS has used this information to find tax cheats, then lied about it. It's even been used to arrest a copyright violator. It seems that every time there is an allegation against the NSA, no matter how outlandish, it turns out to be true."

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          FAIL

          Re: Dan 55 Re: The bottom line *so* far.

          "....show that the NSA's surveillance systems are monitoring the communications of American citizens...." They are not monitoring the coms of everyone, they are collecting, which is different. The data is then sifted to provide the eventual coms that are actually listened to and analysed. BIG difference.

          ".....The DEA has used this information to apprehend drug smugglers, then lied about it in court...." The DEA has been listening to Latin American drug gangs since the eighties at least, if you had to wait for Snowjob to tell you where the fudge have you been? And I'm not surprised the DEA would want to hide the details as doing so makes it harder for the drug gangs to counter them. DUH! Are you telling me you don't approve of drug gangs being caught?

          ".....The IRS has used this information....." Oh yes, the uber-boogeyman of the IRS, and Mr Schneir's proof of this claim is.... Oh, he doesn't have any!

          And then we have the conspiracy junkies and vid pirates fave bleat, Kim Dot Com, which wasn't even a Yank case. So, in all that's one actual case, one possible case, and one unsubstantiated theory - so how many drug smugglers and copyright violators (and tax cheats) were arrested in the States last year WITHOUT the use of PRISM or any of the other NSA toys? The DEA made 30,476 arrests in 2012 (http://www.justice.gov/dea/resource-center/statistics.shtml#arrests), I suggest you consider the fact there is more than just a slight drugs problem and plenty of arrests not involving the NSA info happening, and you have been unable to provide conclusive proof of one instance. The IRS guestimates that about 18% of taxable income is not declared, which suggest there are a lot of people evading US taxs, but you are unable to provide one instance of one being caught through PRISM. The number of copyright infringements in the US involving the Internet probably was counted in the millions last year, yet you have one foreign case (who was of more interest due to his hosting info and apps linked to organised crime and malware groups). Five-plus billion people on the planet and you have less than three cases? LOL!

          1. Dan 55 Silver badge
            Boffin

            Re: Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far.

            If you click on the original link you'll find additional links in that paragraph and in the whole piece.

            Collecting and monitoring is different... until someone at the terminal presses the button to shuffle through what was collected and by art of magic it is now monitored.

            You say "less than three cases," but I'm listing types of cases, so there are more individual cases. Indeed where do you get the "less than" from?

            I do approve of drug gangs being caught, and all the evidence used to catch them should be presented, including that from the three letter agencies. The person being prosecuted should have a chance to defend themselves against that evidence, something which forms a part of the rule of law of our societies.

            I am unable to provide evidence about the IRS prosecuting someone through PRISM as yet again as with the DEA this evidence cannot be revealed, however instructions are included in an IRS manual.

            You talk about "one foreign case" as if a five-eyes country (NZ) didn't count yet afterwards immediately talk about 5+ billion people worldwide (please update your general knowledge).

            You're not worried about a dossier built up on everyone? Ah, no, it's just collected, until it's converted into a dossier by pressing a few buttons and a program is run on stored data. That's alright then. But you're sure that every future government department and government will not abuse this information which has been collected and is ready to be converted into a dossier at the press of a button or, in the best case scenario, you're sure that when a new law is passed making something previously legal, illegal, that you won't be flagged up?

            Government departments are already abusing this data. We're on a bit of a slippery slope, aren't we?

            LOL indeed.

            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
              FAIL

              Re: Dan 55 Re: Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far.

              Dan, all you are doing is stretching the limited evidence of IT COULD HAPPEN to say we should all run around like headless chcikens and insist IT IS HAPPENING. You have shown only one definitive case of it happening - Kim Dot Com - and not one single verifiable case otherwise, just capability. I have the capability to go out and murder everyone I meet, are you going to insist that it will happen simply because I have the capability? There is a massive difference between "could happen" and "is verifiably happening" - you, like all conspiracy junkies, have failed to prove the latter. Going by the statistical evidence of FISC warrants, I am more likely to be struck by lightning, win the lottery AND then be murdered than have my communications actually be listened to and analysed by the NSA.

              1. Dan 55 Silver badge

                Re: Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far.

                Well, it is happening and thanks to the leaks it's verifiably happening. You'd have to have your head pretty deep in the sand to believe it's not.

                It's hard to name individual cases that have come up in court because the government agencies involved are not actually allowed to produce this evidence, but must make up something similar. The consequence is that nobody can prove that their communications are being listed to and analysed, but nonetheless it's happening.

                There is a need for a debate and transparency on these powers and how they are used.

                The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and all that.

                1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                  FAIL

                  Re: Dunce 55 Re: Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far.

                  ".....The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and all that." Vigilance = NSA + GCHQ. End of.

                  1. Dan 55 Silver badge
                    Trollface

                    Re: Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far.

                    See icon. -->

                    And you're a particularly poor one at that.

                    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                      Facepalm

                      Re: Dunce 55 Re: Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far.

                      "..... See icon......" Unfortunately, and despite many requests, El Reg has not seen fit to issue a Sheeple icon, of which you would be a shining example.

                  2. BlueGreen

                    Re: Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far. @ Matt Bryant

                    Hey Plump & Bleaty, if "Vigilance = NSA + GCHQ" then perhaps you would care to justify yourself to this gentleman <http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/09/11/declassified_documents_show_nsa_staff_abused_tapping_misled_courts/#c_1953975> because it appears that laws are being broken by Farmer- sorry, government.

                    And while you're at it, me too (same thread) cos it looks like Petrobras is getting tapped (which of course is a commercial interest, but you denied this would happen).

                    I know you feel comfortable that Farmer is in charge and you can rub round his ankles as you graze but don't you feel a little bit, just a little bit, like maybe there's the smallest risk that you're going to end up on a dozen shrinkwrapped polystyrene trays in some supermarket fridge aisle?

                    BTW I've upvoted your 'Vigilance = ...' because it's getting to the core of your stupi- sorry, conformism. Took a while, but we're getting there.

                    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                      FAIL

                      Re: Синийeзеленый Re: Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far. @ Matt Bryant

                      "Hey Plump & Bleaty...." Sorry, were you bleating to Dunce 55? Seriously, get a room.

                      "....,perhaps you would care to justify yourself to this gentleman ....." Well I would if you could put in a working link. But then again, what difference would that make, you pop up and deny reality with gusto wherever, so I will assume it is merely a post from an equally paranoid deluded, tinfoil-clad leftie, and dispatch it with the usual laughter. Don't worry, you get the link working and the debunking will commence.

                      ".....And while you're at it, me too (same thread) cos it looks like Petrobras is getting tapped....." Correction - it is being claimed, nothing has been proven at all.

                      ".....which of course is a commercial interest......." That received $2bn in 2009 from the US government, so it would be quite understandable if they might want to check if the money was being misspent even if it wasn't the buckling prop holding up the Brazilian economy (http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/09/09/of-course-the-nsa-should-be-spying-on-petrobras/) But, at this point, all we have is Glen Greenwald making a lot of noise and no meat at all. Even the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras) admits there is no actual proof of anything other than Petrobas appearing on a slide alleged to be from the NSA. Please do try a lot harder, you're simply making this too easy.

                      ".....conformism...." Always makes me laugh when those that blindly rebleat leftie blather and shrieking points then try and talk about conformism, especially when their bleats have been so thoroughly and regularly debunked.

                      1. BlueGreen

                        Re: Синийeзеленый Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far. @ Matt Bryant

                        "Sorry, were you bleating to Dunce 55? Seriously, get a room"

                        No, you are Plump & Bleaty as you well know. Bleaty little sheep eagerly fattening himself up for Farmer.

                        "Well I would if you could put in a working link. "

                        Ah nice try. The link works. Here's how: copy the stuff inside the < and > brackets and paste it into the address bar at the top of the browser. The address bar is where you interweb stuff. A browser is typically firefox or microsoft IE. You can find the cut and paste functionality in the edit menu at the top of the window. HTH.

                        "Correction - it is being claimed, nothing has been proven at all."

                        Yes, that is true, you are correct. It just seems a great likelihood at the moment. At some point I expect some clear evidence to emerge, in which case I will expect some comment from you. Fair point, and thanks for putting in some links to your sources. That is very useful and backs up your point nicely, that it is just allegation so far.

                        "so it would be quite understandable if they might want to check if the money was being misspent "

                        True - so you admit that state backed industrial espionage is morally acceptable. OK then!

                        "Always makes me laugh ..."

                        MBZCC

                        BTW. I note you didn't dispute that your "Vigilance = NSA + GCHQ" admission of conformism. A quote from ben franklin which may or may not be relevant: "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither. People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." But then, sheep have no freedom, right, matt? Easier to let Farmer do the worrying, right, matt?

                        Right!

                        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                          FAIL

                          Re: Синийeзеленый Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far. @ Matt Bryant

                          ".....No, you are Plump & Bleaty as you well know....." Oh, sorry, you and Dunce seemed so in-tune, I just assumed you were a couple, I should have seen it's just that you both get your spoonfeeding from the same sources. Maybe you're more familiar with a certain young chappie from Argentina (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-24089050)? Sounds like your kind of "liberty-loving" loser, as the BBC points out; ".....The young man lived with his father....." Congrats! You can go on a date with someone that doesn't live in their mom's basement, just their pop's hot tub. Hey, do you think maybe the big, nasty NSA had a hand in tracking down the little twa- sorry, "non-conformist"? Maybe some of your little friend's zombie farm - which I'm sure he was only using for high-minded and morally superior "non-conformism" - was on Petrobas's systems? Maybe Glen Greenwald could tell us if he wasn't running round in a fit of paranoia, throwing accusations Left and right in an attempt to ingratiate himself with the Brazilians to avoid any future Septic extradition request. Oh, what, you hadn't guessed that was why Glenny was suddenly revealing all these allegations of NSA spying in Brazil? Was no-one around to spoonfeed it to you?

                          "....The link works...." Sorry, but in Chrome, El Reg is not showing the whole link. I also checked in Firefox and the same. Oops, it looks like all your amazing knowledge of "interweb stuff" doesn't extend to cut 'n' paste.

                          "....Yes, that is true, you are correct. It just seems a great likelihood at the moment. At some point I expect some clear evidence to emerge....." So, we have the classic "you're right but I'm still going to live in denial" schpiel. Oh, sorry, I suppose you prefer to call it "living in hope" rather than denial, because you sooooooo want to baaaaah-lieve? I'll cut you a break - despite your inability to show any evidence to actually support your accusations, I would be surprised if the CIA, NSA and DEA and several other alphabet agencies in the US were not using espionage on their neighbours in Latin America. Thing is, I suspected so long before Glenny and Snowjob got busy trying to turn a dime out of it. Read on and you'll see why.

                          "..... I note you didn't dispute that your "Vigilance = NSA + GCHQ" admission of conformism...." Because it's not a admission of conformism, it's a statement of reality. Governments don't just spy on others for military information, but also for industrial information that can forecast economic behaviour. If we look at the alleged example of Petrobas, which currently props up the Brazilian economy with subsidised fuel, it is easy to see why the US might be keeping tabs on developments. Should Petrobas get into problems then it will lead to massive problems in the Brazilian economy, which is currently stumbling under the socialist pretensions so common in the region. Like Venezuela, Brazil has funded popularist socilaist programs - sorry, you probably prefer to call them high-minded, egalitarian, liberal reforms - through subsidisation based on oil. In Venezuela's case, they still have plenty of oil but still are seeing massive economic issues. Brazil does not have as big or easily exploited oil reserves. Should those socialist Latin American governments like Brazil slide into economic disarray then it has dramatic implications not just for US foreign policy but also directly for the US economy itself. Any collapse in the region's economies will reduce US exports, affect US companies' (and the US government's) investments in the area, and lead to an increase in migrants looking to flee to the US. Even worse, it could even lead to US involvement in possible Latin American wars. Frankly, I would consider it highly irresponsible of the US government if their agencies were not spying on those Latin American countries in an attempt to gauge the possible future impact on the States. In the same way as I would be actually annoyed if the UK's government were not keeping tabs on what our EU partners are planning (or hiding again, in the case of Greece's economic figures). Not all spying is for nasty, nefarious ends, some of it is just for better planning. Your problem is that you are so ingrained with the desire to baaaaah-lieve "US = evil" that you cannot grasp the realities of the global economy and political behaviour. Truly a sad, sad fail.

                          1. BlueGreen

                            Re: Синийeзеленый Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far. @ Matt Bryant

                            Hi Plumpy,

                            > "Oh, sorry, you and Dunce seemed so in-tune..."

                            MZBCC except the stuff about the argentine guy, about which you say

                            > do you think maybe the big, nasty NSA had a hand in tracking down the little twa- sorry, "non-conformist"?

                            Well, since there's no evidence of it, I'll hold you to your standard and say that without evidence, no, they didn't (see how it works?)

                            BTW there's a difference between a non-conformist and a criminal. That seems to have escaped you.

                            > Sorry, but in Chrome, El Reg is not showing the whole link. I also checked in Firefox

                            The link works. I used it several times to see if you'd replied. Please note it actually goes over more than one line, which may have confused you. Here it is again <http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/09/11/declassified_documents_show_nsa_staff_abused_tapping_misled_courts/#c_1953975>

                            > I would be surprised if the CIA, NSA and DEA and several other alphabet agencies in the US were not using espionage on their neighbours in Latin America.

                            WAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAA! First you refuse to accept they are doing industrial espionage without utter and absolute proof then a few posts later suddenly you'd be surprised if they were *not*. Oh you muppet! Trying to pull a volte-face and hope nobody notices! You are sussed!

                            > Governments don't just spy on others for military information, but also for industrial information that can forecast economic behaviour

                            WAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA! AGAIN!

                            > I would consider it highly irresponsible of the US government if their agencies were not spying on those Latin American countries

                            FUCKING HAT-TRICK! You are PRECIOUS!

                            > Not all spying is for nasty, nefarious ends, some of it is just for better planning

                            WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Immoral activity FTW!

                            You are such a two-faced, amoral, self-serving docile little sheep! The barbecue beckons!

                            You've finished my weekend on a high note, thanks!

                            1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
                              Happy

                              Re: Синийeзеленый Dunce 55 Dan 55 Dan 55 The bottom line *so* far. @ Matt Bryant

                              Gosh, did you post from Egypt, you're so in de Nile (badumdumtooosh!). Sorry, but it's hard not to treat your childish dribblings with anything other than equally childish humour. Well, that or contempt. ".....Well, since there's no evidence of it, I'll hold you to your standard and say that without evidence, no, they didn't...." Yup, back to you wanting to baaaaah-lieve again.

                              "....there's a difference between a non-conformist and a criminal....." There certainly is for you Anonyputzers and the like - if they hold the same "moral outlook" as you when committing crimes then they are "non-conformist", not criminals, right?

                              "....The link works....." No it doesn't, the link seems to be truncated at the part "_nsa_", or at least that is how it appears in Chrome on an iPad, Explorer and Firefox on a WinXP PC and in Explorer on a Win7 laptop, which seem to lose the word wrap in the El Reg page format. Sorry, I really can't bothered to try any other combinations simply because you cannot cut'n'paste properly, but if you need help learning how to cut'n'paste I'm not really sure you should be on a techie website in the first place. But then - like a lot of the other Anonyputzers that post here - you probably just got pointed this way by the other sheeple rather than came for technical reasons.

                              Just to keep you from whining and crying too much, I took a guess at which thread relating to the NSA on that date would appeal to a paranoid numpty like yourself and I suspect it is the thread tied to the article "Declassified documents show NSA staff abused tapping....". I notice that you and Boring Bernie, another blindly frothing member of the sheeple, were asking for help in understanding the article right at the end of the thread - is that what you are referring to? Sorry I wasn't around to help you with your comprehension. Before you get too spittley, you may want to re-read the bit in the article about how legal experts are considering the documents BEFORE you claim everything was illegal, mmmkay? Yeah, sorry, I refuse to belief you have any form of legal expertise making you qualified to pass judgement yourself, that really would be going beyond the bounds of reality!

                              ".....First you refuse to accept they are doing industrial espionage....." Because they are not doing industrial espionage, they are doing political espionage for economic information, which are very different terms. You have been spoonfed the term industrial espionage because - like the term commercial espionage - it suggests spying for monetary reasons, such as giving the info to politically-friendly US companies so they can gain a commercial advantage. You will want to insist that there is no reason other than monetary gain for such spying, blindly wanting to baaaaah-lieve it is just the nasty big capitalists looking to take advantage of a socialist country, when the reality is the policies and behaviour of the socialist country has a potential impact on the capitalist country too. I do not deny the spying is most probably happening, what I deny is your loonytunes conspiracy theorems as to why it is happening. I know, that's probably far too subtle a difference for you to follow, and I doubt if there have ever been any responsible adults in your household capable of explaining that what you want to baaaah-lieve is just male bovine manure, but it is fun watching you shriek and bleat so blindly. Enjoy! And I do note how you avoid the comment on why Greenwald would be raising that particular story now.

                              BTW, just to keep you frothing nicely, did you notice how the Obambi-Pootie double-act of good cop and bad cop worked on Assad? Obambi threatened with all those nasty weapons, Pootie steps in and offers what the US wanted all along, and Assad tries to save face (and ground forces) by giving in. Great politics, eh? The fun bit is that I bet you celebrate the fact matters look to be heading for a non-violent solution without being able to admit the double-act needed the threat of all those nasty Septic weapons to keep Assad going the way the US wanted. LMAO!

      2. Intractable Potsherd

        Re: The bottom line *so* far.

        "Trust me, the vast majority of you are of no interest to anyone."

        You keep saying that, Matt, but how do *you* know what interests the NSA or other agencies? How do you know what will interest them tomorrow?

        1. Intractable Potsherd
          Black Helicopters

          Re: The bottom line *so* far.

          .... and now I've genuinely got black(-ish) helicopters overhead! Apaches, to be precise. I apologise, Matt - maybe you do have information the rest of us don't!

  4. poopypants

    Interesting...

    I always wondered why Apple wouldn't let you remove the battery.

    When they remotely activate your microphone, and listen in on your conversations, does the data transfer go on the bill from your ISP?

    1. theJML

      Re: Interesting...

      You might not be able to remove the battery (done for space saving and I'm sure "planned obsolescence") but you can shut it off. Saves batter power too!

      1. MacroRodent

        Re: Interesting...

        Unless you remove the Battery, you cannot be sure the phone is inactive. Nowadays power buttons just issue polite suggestions to the hardware.

        1. Vic

          Re: Interesting...

          > power buttons just issue polite suggestions to the hardware

          Sometimes even less...

          We had Sky box fail testing once. The power light went red just like it was supposed to. The video shut off just like it was supposed to.

          We had forgotten to turn off the VCR output, which was merrily chuntering out A/V.

          Ooops...

          Vic.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Interesting...

      There was a case recently where a phone company in the USA accidentally sent the bill for the wiretap to the subscriber (mafia IIRC) they were wiretapping.

    3. RobHib
      Angel

      @poopypants - Disconnecting a Cell Phone Battery Quickly.

      I always wondered why Apple wouldn't let you remove the battery.

      The old Nokias were excellent for that. The battery was external, it would slide-connect then latch. It was integral to the shape of the phone.

      Disconnecting it was a breeze. If I forgot to switch it off and it rang in a meeting all I did was to reach into my pocket and push the button. Off, killed dead in about two seconds. Wonderful system.

      Current Solution for Quick Power-Off: I'd never have a phone with a non-removable battery (it's hard to believe Apple got away with that). What I do now is to leave the (clip-on) back off my phone and essentially throw it away, that exposes the battery compartment. I now tape a long thin slither of Mylar sheet about 1/4" wide to the back of the battery and voilà I just tug the length of Mylar at the appropriate moment and the battery pops out instantly. Problem solved!

      I've often thought that there's a market for retrofitting a tiny power switch to cell phones to kill the power instantly. None of this controlled shutdown nonsense, a phone can do a lot of things (and damage) in that time. It knows you're shutting down and can upload stuff simultaneously whilst it's dying.

      Mind you, my use is just to quick-kill it so as to stop interruptions and for quick switch-off instead of normal shutdown. (I haven't sufficient time left in my life to wait for a cell phone or any other computing appliance that takes seemingly eternity to turn off normally, and the Mylar works perfectly for that.)

      1. Anonymaus Cowark

        Re: @poopypants - Disconnecting a Cell Phone Battery Quickly.

        I am pretty sure that you would get legal problems for "retrofitting a tiny power switch to cell phones"

        They could make a case because of modification of a radio device or for "obstruction of an agency proceeding" (prevention of listening in by the NSA)

        1. RobHib
          Devil

          @Anonymaus Cowark - Re: @poopypants - Disconnecting a Cell Phone Battery Quickly.

          I am pretty sure that you would get legal problems for "retrofitting a tiny power switch to cell phones"

          Well, I'd love dearly for them to sue me for installing my Mylar 'switch'. For that's exactly what I've already done—although it mightn't be pretty and eloquent.

          I'd be the media circus of all time, not to mention probably start a craze—thousands would be getting on the bandwagon.

          Bring it on, I say.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Trollface

      @poopypants

      Duh, you're supposed to put your iPhone in your Faraday cage wallet. That's why they haven't gone to a larger screen yet, they have to wait for the larger Faraday cage wallets to come out!

      In a pinch, if you don't have a Faraday cage wallet, you can balance it on your head, which keeps it safe under your tinfoil hat.

      1. Alien8n

        Re: @poopypants

        I recall when I was an engineer being told of an inspection of the faraday cage at one supplier's factory. The operators were working away merrily within the cage while listening to the radio. Which was also inside the cage with them.

        1. RobHib

          @Alien8n - Re: @poopypants

          Well, simply it wasn't a Faraday cage—not at that broadcast frequency anyway. Alternatively, the local radio station was close by and the cage's RF attenuation was only in the order of 40dB or so (for many jobs this is quite adequate). At 40dB attenuation, the limiting or AGC control would have provided sufficient gain compensation for the radio to work adequately on a local station.

          Faraday cages are peculiar animals, they can be quite difficult to get good attenuation. RF leaks in through the power services etc. and filtering it out can be very difficult or expensive. Attenuation also greatly depends on its construction and the frequencies its trying to keep out (or in for that matter). If it's made of weldmesh the grid size is very important and whether it has one layer or more of shielding.

          A solid metal box is almost perfect. So is completely wrapping your iPhone in several layers of aluminium foil (that'll kill RF reception completely).

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Should a government decide to start looking

    WTF - They are already looking

  6. RobHib
    Stop

    Skywriting would be safer.

    As I've said for ages, if you've something secret then skywriting your message would be safer than the telephone or the internet.

    Isn't this bloody obvious by now?

    1. Gannon (J.) Dick

      Re: Skywriting would be safer.

      I'd upvote you, but I'd probably be looking at used bi-plane ads until 2015.

      1. RobHib

        @Gannon (J.) Dick - Re: Skywriting would be safer.

        "... probably be looking at used bi-plane ads until 2015

        Try a monoplane instead, a Piper Super Cup for instance. 'Tis a while since I've been in one, they're great fun, OK on aerobatics and used for skywriting too. Lots around, if not try a Cessna, they're sometimes used.

        I upvoted you anyway.

  7. envmod

    fingerprints

    they must be in stitches about how so many people are likely going to be lining up to get their fingerprints on the NSAs records by using a shiny new iPhone 5S. next retina scans, after that full DNA profileing from a breath sample. to whit: a comprehensive database of billions of people - not just a database of numbers and text, but a database of genetic information. i bet TPTB can't fucking wait.

    1. RobHib

      envmod - Re: fingerprints

      Perhaps we need large red warning stickers on our cellphones, laptops and normal telephones etc. Something like "if you ring your girlfriend and talk naughty, then not only will the NSA know but also your mother and your boss at work too."

      Perhaps we should enlist the Boy Scouts et al to ensure there's a sticker on every phone in the country.

  8. i like crisps
    Big Brother

    'Hilarious'

    Snowden's 'The gift that keeps on giving'...you would have thought by now

    that Google etc, would have enough 'DIRT' on everyone at GCHQ & the NSA

    so that they could just tell them to "Go Fuck Themselves", but there again it's

    always nicer to be part of the joke rather than the 'Butt' of it.

    I wonder what the families and friends of all the members of staff at GCHQ

    think about their snooping activities of late? I can only hope that it's caused

    a few rows and maybe the odd punch being thrown..."Itchy"..."Tasty"...

  9. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Facepalm

    Literary reference FAIL

    SInce when are there "brainwashed zombies" in 1984?

    Maybe there are in the Americanized Version? With a good-looking Winston Smith cleaning up the Inner Circle?

    "You killed my girfriend Brother - Big Mistake!"

    1. Yet Another Commentard

      Re: Literary reference FAIL

      Maybe it's the missing chapter from The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism?

  10. vincent himpe

    no wonder racing pigeons are sold for lots of money

    They always find their way home ...

    esethay arentay otntay hetnay igeonpays ouyay reajay ookinglay orfay ...

    1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      Re: no wonder racing pigeons are sold for lots of money

      "esethay arentay otntay hetnay igeonpays ouyay reajay ookinglay orfay"

      "these are not the pigeons you are looking for"

      Should you not have used/invented Pigeon Latin rather than Pig Latin?

      1. RobHib

        Re: no wonder racing pigeons are sold for lots of money

        Or this:

        Da3K3NG+mB01VW0GhxQzXUwjmmE7kFwgEaEKTnaROql1Ynujn10hsF29GuOA

        DAEueDJzL90hPugMvhk4L2Q8wcomwYnOO01EIsvbOcTGjYVc13acM89MwRNTy

        DQbSG+Y+/KBufSUfwjA365wJQQT837AwVo74hCpz+aBWhkeIiYBcq+I933NOsq

  11. Ian 55

    GSM

    I always heard that GSM encryption is less strong than originally proposed because someone had words with the standards team - they wanted something they could break even then.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: GSM

      I was told someone from the ministry showed up and ask for copies of all their internal documents.

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: GSM

      GSM wasn't particularly secure, partly because it had to be performed by 1980s era handsets and partly because it was designed in secret inside the companies by amateurs.

      There was a weaker version of GSM for export to naughty countries - but I don't think anywhere seriously bothered and it was officially abandoned a few years ago.

      GSM was really only secure against a journalist with an FM scanner listenining in to heirs to the throne - the government would simply tap the telco's network anyway.

  12. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Apple and Nokia...

    Wow, they referred to IPhone owners as zombies? They are not, they are raving reality-distortion-field* affected fanbois. Completely different! 8-)

    Second, in 2010, Nokia != Windows, these phones would have been running Symbian Series 40 or Series 60 generally.

    *Recall Jobs was still around in 2010.

    1. Jess

      Re: Apple and Nokia...

      Note: Series 40 isn't Symbian.

      Interesting that they had to hack iPhones, rather than just asking for spyware to be pushed to the device. Perhaps Jobs resisted playing this.

      Does anyone believe Google Play or any of the app stores do not have the ability to push out whatever they want? (or are obliged to by the patriot act etc.)

      This would make Symbian the safest platform with respect to the NSA, because the servers would not be subject to US law.

      If this is correct logic, then it would have been a huge stroke of luck for the NSA that Microsoft paid Nokia a large sum of money to commit commercial suicide and scrap their own smart phone systems. (And of course S40 will now be owned by Microsoft, too)

    2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: Apple and Nokia...

      Zombies stumble around looking for brains to eat.

      Apple fanbois simply stumble around looking for brains?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Buy some switches, getting them dropped off in a shady deserted building somewhere. Then fully backwards engineer the hardware and software. And finally just go after live public switches, by installing invisible patches that hide the fact that they are using any CPU cycles.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wiretapping_case_2004%E2%80%9305

  14. ecofeco Silver badge
    Paris Hilton

    "But I LUV Facebook GPS on my iPhone!"

    There has to be some kind of Darwinian fate for people like that.

    Has to be! (it just stands to reason. doesn't it?)

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Listen to them...

    By buying some cheap unsheilded speakers, the type that make unwanted noises when your phone gets a text or makes a call.

    Leave the phone just close enough to the speaker or power leads to marvel how often it kicks up some rf time.

    I do that and it's very strange how the phone will go into a nice long exchanging RF mode just before "nothing at all changes" on the dsplay.

    Once the RF sound is recognised you can grab your mobile to answer it before it alerts.

    1. Alien8n

      Re: Listen to them...

      Testing kit at a previous job was like that. All devices being tested would start failing approximately 20 seconds prior to anyone with an Orange mobile receiving a call. Phones were banned from within the actual clean room facilities themselves for this reason and the testing rig had a 1m space painted around it with "do not enter if you have a pace-maker fitted" painted on the side of the rig.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Speaker noises

      I've observed that they only seem to be picked up when the handset is utilising a 2g signal. It doesn't happen with 3G signals, maybe something to do with different frequencies or modulation schemes?

This topic is closed for new posts.

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