What Surface RT flop? Nokia said to be readying WinRT slab for September New reports have emerged suggesting that Nokia is planning to boldly go where other device makers fear to tread: the Finnish firm is reportedly planning to release a tablet running Microsoft's ill-fated Windows RT operating system. Murmurs that Nokia is working on a Surface RT competitor have been buzzing around for months now …
Since you can also get tablets that run full fat Windows 8 you have a very confusing situation:
Normal Windows 8 on a PC.
Windows 8 running on a tablet.
Windows 8 RT
Windows Phone 8
Now what runs on what? Can they run older Windows applications?
It's perhaps more confusing for Joe Punter than the Vista cock-up.
People get confused by this and end up looking at products with a model you can understand better.
"The guy's thumb seems to be hovering in mid air, not holding the tablet."
The person holding the device may be trying to minimise skin contact with it. Keep in mind that this device is based on a platform that has already sunk, yet it burns under the waves and it could destroy a once highly successful multinational company.
With that in mind it seems very prudent to minimise contact with this highly toxic device, although the person in the photo really should be wearing a heavy apron, some heavy gauntlets, welding mask and have a very big quenching bucket near to hand.
Burning platform icon selected.
For Redmond fans: "It sets expectations of being able to be used just like an x86 Windows laptop"
For Consumer: It sets expectations of being just as unusable and unfriendly as a Windows laptop.
Thus "Windows" has become a technical and marketing liability with purely negative associations.
yeah, it's a real shame, a couple of years ago I would have seriously considered a Nokia phone as a replacement. These days they're completely out of the running.
They always seemed to be a good honest company with quality hardware and good intentions, then something changed, I don't recognize this company anymore.
> They are really good - best camera on any phone
Do try and keep up. That may have been true of the 808 a couple of years ago, but you obviously haven't heard of Samsung's Zoom.
Optical Zoom always trumps digital zoom.
"""Camera
Primary 16 MP, autofocus, Xenon flash
Features 1/2.33'' sensor size, geo-tagging, touch focus, face and smile detection, 10x optical zoom (24-240mm), optical image stabilization, HDR, panorama
Video Yes, 1080p@30fps"""
Overall the Nokia 1020 (and only this model) is slightly better for some things than an iPhone, and slightly worse in some tests:
http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/iphone-5-vs-lumia-1020-vs-olympus-e-pl5-1174823/2#articleContent
Of course, optical zoom is usually better than digital zoom, but Nokia's PureView is not your granddad's digital zoom. And optical zoom brings its own problems with distortion outside the comfort zone of the optics, which will likely be significant at this size. Better picture quality generally calls for a larger sensor, which is why Nokia probably ditched optical zoom because fixed optics for a large sensor would be large enough and zoom would only make things bigger. I know my Canon 18-55 kit lens is not the best example, but at 55mm the effective aperture is tiny and at 18mm the distortion round the edges can annoy me. Anyway, sometimes, I shoot wider when it's darker to get a bigger aperture and then crop to zoom after getting the photo off the camera, which is effectively what the PureView system does, only with a single button press instead of me faffing around.
Not to mention Facebook will probably mangle the photo anyway, and very few people will be taking photos that their mates will want to look at 1:1.
NB: No, I don't own a PureView phone, I'm an iFan, but I am very impressed with what Nokia achieved. If Samsung can produce good quality optical zoom that doesn't have mechanical issues, I'll be very impressed.
> Better picture quality generally calls for a larger sensor,
It is not just the size in terms of megapixels, but also the physical size of each pixel. While the 1020 has a larger sensor than most phones and many compacts the pixel site size is smaller.
> which is why Nokia probably ditched optical zoom because fixed optics for a large sensor would be large enough and zoom would only make things bigger.
Yes, the Samsung zoom has a collapsing zoom lens, but that is why it is a much better camera.
> I know my Canon 18-55 kit lens is not the best
Then you are probably better off with a quality compact than lugging around a big DSLR with a poor lens.
> Not to mention Facebook will probably mangle the photo anyway, and very few people will be taking photos that their mates will want to look at 1:1.
Then they don't need a 'pureview', any old phone camera will do for facebook.
> If Samsung can produce good quality optical zoom that doesn't have mechanical issues, I'll be very impressed.
Samsung have 11.8% of the world digital camera market, they are not new to making cameras of all types.
I agree, he really has gone of the deep end with this tablet idea. They simply do not have the cash to waste on such a risky venture. Latest info suggests they will run out of cash and face bankruptcy in late 2014 or early 2015. They currently hold 4 billion euros in cash and have about 5 billion in debt. (See: http://computingcompendium.blogspot.com/2013/08/nokia-may-die-taking-windows-phone-8.html for details). Even if it were the case that Microsoft is somehow picking up the tab (and I doubt this), it really couldn't make sense to do this, just on the grounds of loss of focus.
Just the other day a VP at Nokia was complaining about Microsoft being too slow about getting WP8 apps. Wait till that guy sees the poor selection in the Windows Store. Worse, many of the ones in the Windows Store won't even run on RT.
It's mind blowing that this is actually happening.
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" allow phone 8 be used on larger screens or merge phone+RT into one version that can be used either on a phone or tablet/laptop "
And ditch the, ahem, 'Modern' screen on Win 8, dump the name 'Windows 8 phone' for the mobile OS, and just call it, oh, I dunno... 'Microsoft Mobile'?
BAM! No more confusion, and everyone's happy! (Except maybe the crew that came up with this whole fuster-cluck in the first place.)
The Modern UI is what I really like about Windows 8, it works well on everything from my phone, through my tablet to my desktop - well, actually, my desktop is my tablet plugged into a dock with external monitor, keyboard and multi-touch touchpad; but the interface works equally well, whether I am using the touch screen or the touchpad.
Another big bonus is, the tablet goes with me everywhere, so I have my data with me all the time, even if I don't have an internet connection, I can carry on working and when I get back to my desk, I don't have to wait for the data to sync to the cloud, before I can work on my "desktop".
Having access to the same apps and the same data, no matter which 'mode' I am in is great.
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Don't feel bad, no one understands why RT exists or who it was even targeted at. Everything surrounding it has been confusing, vague, contradictory and occasionally insulting with the only clear functionality being the ability to buy apps, but failing even in that as they forgot to build any apps to buy...
> I am not really sure why windows RT exists
Windows on ARM and RT are to wave at the OEMs in order to remove their 'loyalty discount' on _all_ products if they build an ARM tablet with a different OS.
It worked for a while with HP and WebOS, but OEMs are now ignoring the threat because RT is a failure.
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> Windows RT is a thin client but has built in lightweight applications, like those old green screen terminals with built in calculator.
Nice try, but wrong.
The only RT products so far are touch tablets with 10inch screens. These would be completely unsuitable for running existing desktop software (actually running on a server). That software is unsuitable for touch and requires keyboard and mouse. 10inch is too small for desktop software where pixel level mouse accuracy is required. Any on-screen keyboard would get in the way of the input areas - because the software is not designed to work that way. Attaching a keyboard means its just a too small laptop (and Surface won't be used on a lap - it just doesn't work at that).
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It would but the point is, if you write for WinRT you can address any implementation of Windows, be it Server, 8.x or RT.
The point of Windows RT was to provide an ARM-powered device which was genuinely useful (unlike the iPad which is basically a portable telly if you're going to be honest) and in some bizarro way, show that Windows doesn't actually need a desktop in order to do stuff, including content creation.
I suspect MS hoped that developers would instantly start targeting WinRT as a development platform, which was stupid. 99% of developers work in corporate environments, corporates are still running Windows 7 having only just upgraded their shitty XP boxes and are not going to upgrade again for at least three years.
$900 million is a lot of money for a prototype, but that's what Windows RT boxes are. A prototype. A look at where things are going, not at where things currently are
> if you write for WinRT you can address any implementation of Windows, be it Server, 8.x or RT.
Why would any server be running a GUI, let alone a touch based one that gives apps the full screen or just 2 or 3 splits?
> (unlike the iPad which is basically a portable telly if you're going to be honest)
That must be why they are selling so poorly.
> show that Windows doesn't actually need a desktop in order to do stuff, including content creation.
Office RT uses the desktop Win32 API and not TIFKAM. Office works poorly (according to reviews) with touch, it needs the keyboard and mouse/touchpad to be useful. This then requires that it be set on a firm surface such as a desktop. That's a failure then.
> $900 million is a lot of money for a prototype,
That figure was just the partial writedown on approx 6million devices. When Surface 2 is announced then these will be written down again or written off for more hundreds of millions.
> but that's what Windows RT boxes are. A prototype.
'Prototypes' are made in small numbers. I am sure that actual prototypes did exist, perhaps in several different forms. Making several million 'prototypes' would be major incompetence.
Why would any server be running a GUI, let alone a touch based one that gives apps the full screen or just 2 or 3 splits?
So you can administer it from a tablet device, obviously.
> (unlike the iPad which is basically a portable telly if you're going to be honest)
That must be why they are selling so poorly.
They're hardly selling at PC levels, are they? Even with the alleged "death of the PC", the tablet market is a minnow by profit comparison and the iPad doesn't even rule that. It's a portable telly. A consumer device for consumers to consume stuff with. Not what Windows RT was intended for.
Office RT uses the desktop Win32 API and not TIFKAM. Office works poorly (according to reviews) with touch, it needs the keyboard and mouse/touchpad to be useful. This then requires that it be set on a firm surface such as a desktop. That's a failure then.
Mostly, I agree, except for two issues.
1. There's OneNote RT which does indeed work on Metro and is likely to be the way that Office RT is going. The rest of Office RT currently simply an ARM port of the x86 code. I suspect that's more about time to implement than any conscious and permanent decision. So it's not a failure; it's an incomplete piece of work with a kludgy workaround.
2. Will you cut it out with the "not useable on your lap" nonsense? You clearly haven't used a Surface so why do you insist that you "know" this?. I am using the test Surface RT machine we have in the office right now. With the keyboard. On my lap. It's fine. I could use a flatter angle but it's perfectly workable. The 1366x768 resolution is actually a benefit since everything's big enough to see anyway.
> They're hardly selling at PC levels, are they?
The latest IDC forecasts for whole of 2013 global markets:
Desktop PCs: 134m Mobile PCs (laptops): 181m
Tablets: 227m Smartphones: 918m.
So, Yes, they are.
> Even with the alleged "death of the PC", the tablet market is a minnow by profit comparison and the iPad doesn't even rule that.
Apple's gross margin is around 40%. Significantly higher than PC vendors.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/04/15/pc-gross-margins-expected-to-decline-as-sales-shrink-dell-goes-private
> It's a portable telly. A consumer device for consumers to consume stuff with. Not what Windows RT was intended for.
You may sneer, but it is what many people want. It already has, as does Android, sufficiently capable apps for 'Office' type functionality and can connect to web based solutions or use RDP, VNC and many others.
Windows RT is just a 'me too' as MS tries to be an Apple 'me too'.
You may sneer, but [the iPad] is what many people want.
No-one's denying that for a second, and I'm not actually sneering. I merely reminded you that consumption is not the purpose of Windows RT, or certainly not the sole purpose.
Whether or not it meets the needs of various users is for them to decide. Not me and certainly not you. You haven't even used one, which makes your accusing me of sneering somewhat amusing.
>> You may sneer, but [the iPad] is what many people want.
> No-one's denying that for a second, and I'm not actually sneering. I merely reminded you that consumption is not the purpose of Windows RT, or certainly not the sole purpose.
You were sneering by calling the iPad a 'portable telly' when it is just as capable of producing content and being used as a terminal to central servers as RT is. It may be that the keyboards are third party (which means choice and flexibility) and the software is different.
I also find that the 16:9 screen of Surface is targetted more at watching movies than producing A4 documents, especially when it is stuck in landscape by its keyboard and stand. A 4:3 screen is much more usable for content creation and is particularly so when it can be put into landscape or portrait mode when word processing and clipped into the keyboard/cover/stand combination that are available to suit the various users' needs.
It RT was intended to be used for content creation then Microsoft has done a very poor job.
>> Why would any server be running a GUI, let alone a touch based one that gives apps the full screen or just 2 or 3 splits?
> So you can administer it from a tablet device, obviously.
I have been able to administer my servers remotely, using a tablet even, for years and they _don't_ run GUI at all. They run WebMin (available since 1997) accessible by any browser, even a phone (as long as it is allowed in the config).
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>> "That software is unsuitable for touch and requires keyboard and mouse"
> Erm - but Surface RT has full USB support - it supports 400 million devices out of the box!....Including....USB keyboards and mice!
Sure, keyboards and mice can be attached, as they can with most other tablets too. But the desktop based software is most useful with, and probably _requires_, keyboard and mouse. So the task is done better with a laptop with a bigger screen - and that may be cheaper too.
Making a bigger Lumia for browsing/editing makes sense for Nokia just like Samsung or even Blackberry, the question is whether to use WinPhone or RT? But given the kernel is the same, the question is really “should nokia follow the shi1e UI of RT or stick with something touch oriented? “ (we touch things, RT fakes gestures).
Safe to bet: [1] Nokia’s RT tablet will follow the clean UI of WinPhone [2] huge stockpiles of MS Surface will be “given” to students/developers, rather than sold cheap
Elop's name has come up as a possible replacement for Ballmer. He was sent on a mission to Microsoft-ize Nokia. He did so, albeit not getting anyplace in the market with it, but his loyalty to MS products is clear. Since Nokia's running out of money, it would not be surprising if MS bought Nokia on the cheap and then promoted Flop to run the whole thing.
Into the ground.
Whatever Microsoft have on Nokia must be bloody good. NSA quality at least!
Ballmer is going, Microsoft are changing their structure and it's going to be a long time until anything decent fundamental ships regarding Windows RT (if it survives) or Windows Mobile.
Now is the time to bring Nokia's reputation for quality hardware to Android. I think there's a gap in the market for good hardware running stock Android without all the guff that Samsung, HTC and others load onto their devices.
Surely it's INSANE for Nokia to be getting further into bed with Microsoft at this point! At the very least they should now be diversifying in some way. This news just beggars belief.
"Now is the time to bring Nokia's reputation for quality hardware to Android. I think there's a gap in the market for good hardware running stock Android without all the guff that Samsung, HTC and others load onto their devices."
12 months, even 6 months, ago I'd happily have agreed with you.
With the benefit of a bit more time observing the goings on at Google, I've lost interest in Android.
Such a shame Nokia never got round to doing a proper phone-centric Linux for a phone.
So, S60 3rd edition it is, for me, for a little while longer. But where next, when I don't want to be reliant on anybody's Cloud, because these Clouds need a tinfoil lining.
"Please enlighten me on the ways the Nokia N9 is not "a proper phone-centric Linux"
Please enlighten readers on why it is a proper phone centric Linux (we're not all phone geeks as well as datacentre geeks).
I recognise the N9 name but little beyond that. Having had Nokias since before 3G was invented, I recognise that parts of Nokia were capable of doing great things. Other parts were capable of repeatedly screwing up.
I need my phone primarily as a phone (and snapshot camera) that works reliably, with a few secondary apps (e.g. not including Angry Farts, might include iPlayer Radio if the BBC would kindly permit it, web browser, ideally VNC, the usual best S60 stuff basically - not forgetting decent battery life).
Until someone comes along with a definitely better phone (and for my requirements better does not mean just shinier) then I stick with my antique. My First Android, obtained as a free contract upgrade, was long since rooted but still sits in a cupboard; both as a phone and as a camera it is less satisfactory than the antique.
There must be a better way. Where can I read about the N9, what will its successor be?
"Now is the time to bring Nokia's reputation for quality hardware to Android"
Then Nokia would loose any differentiation.
Windows Phone is much more secure than Android, and requires less resources - Nokia are already winning corporate business from Blackberry - and low end Windows Phone handsets completely outperform landfill Android....
>> "Now is the time to bring Nokia's reputation for quality hardware to Android"
>Then Nokia would loose any differentiation.
Exactly, there are already plenty of quality hardware devices running Android, so no differentiation.
> Windows Phone is much more secure than Android, and requires less resources - Nokia are already winning corporate business from Blackberry - and low end Windows Phone handsets completely outperform landfill Android....
WP7 would run on low end hardware, but actually it would _only_ run on low end because its CE base did not support multi-core or multitasking. By tombstoning apps it reduced the processing required, but then users missed out on background tasks that others could run.
WP8 _requires_ dual-core, so these are not 'low-end' and may well 'outperform' single-core Androids that have a lower MHz or less RAM.
"Now is the time to bring Nokia's reputation for quality hardware to Android"
"Then Nokia would loose any differentiation."
What makes Nokia Lumias different from any other Windows phones IT'S the hardware! GOD, I'm absolutly tired of the Elopism "differentiation"!
"- Nokia are already winning corporate business from Blackberry - and low end Windows Phone handsets completely outperform landfill Android...."
The Toy Phone Brigade™ eating Blackberry's lunch? True, but not by merit, they are offered so, so . so cheap, that the HR departments are flooding them to the poor salespeople...
This is all part of the long term plan. Nokia, Microsoft are one and the same now.
Nokia will launch their RT tablet and become a laughing stock when all the predictions come true, but nobody will remember or care when the entire company is borged into Microsoft in another 12 months time, with Elop running the whole show. One might even wonder if that has been the plan all along...
Plan A: (Phone selling price) - (Phone manufacturing cost) = (Windows license fee)
For some reason, the phone manufacturers did not want to fall into the same trap as PC manufacturers and did not dive in head first. Selling phones requires the blessing of the carriers. Ballmer bought Skype and said all phones would use Skype to provide revenue to Microsoft instead of call revenue going to the carriers. The carriers rebelled. Ballmer could threaten manufacturers with a cut in marketing donations all he wanted, but that would not generate purchase orders from then carriers.
Plan B: Buy Nokia at bargain basement prices
His Billness looked at the deal around February and said 'No'. Nokia was so badly damaged that the deal made no sense. Ballmer took Microsoft's phone market share form 12% down to 4%. Bill said Windows Phone was 'irretrievably broken'. Ballmer will be running Microsoft with his hands tied behind his back, and Bill will not let him waste more money on Windows Phone.
Plan C: erm ...
Ballmer no longer has to power to bail out Elop any more. Elop has to come up with some plan on his own. The billion a year marketing subsidy depends on Nokia being a Microsoft shop, so Elop has a choice of Winphone, Windows 8.1 and RT. Nokia is not set up to do anything with 8.1 - and the margins are thin there anyway. Winphone support was poor (according to Elop) and will shortly be abysmal. The only advantage I can see to RT is it might make the board offer him money to leave quickly. That plan might not work - Elop fired anyone who disagreed with him. Nokia do not have anyone to replace him.
Microsoft's shares gained 10% when Ballmer announced he was leaving. Ballmer has done a good job of firing any likely successor. The idea of Elop running Microsoft was a joke. Microsoft's shares would drop 50% if they put Elop in charge.
"Microsoft's shares would drop 50% if they put Elop in charge."
Who put Ballmer in charge, and left him in charge of the recent reshuffle, anyway?
Elop in charge at MS, shares down 50% or maybe more, what's not to like? Stranger things have happened.
I believe this was Elop's plan from the very beginning of his Nokia stint. This is why he was constantly trying to outballmer Ballmer, that is committing the same follies but only more so. The RT tablet is a good example.
This plan may have backfired because Ballmer does not retire in the glory of his achievements. It seems he was pushed by Bill Gates and the rest of the board to allow a change of course. If this is true, Elop would be the last candidate to choose from.
If Nokia include 3G they could be onto something... I bought a Surface RT after all the price drops and tbh it's not all that bad, the only issue I've had is the reliance on the wifi connection - not always practical in the countryside whereas a 3G signal is more readily available.
I've not used RT so can not speak from experience, but I've heard very little praise and much condemnation for it. Is there anything salvageable? I can not imagine why Nokia would invest so much time, energy, and reputation trying to put hi-res lipstick on a zombie pig unless they've figured out how to make it work (and work well) for its customers. Sorry if this is a naive and ignorant question.
> Well it's certainly a more powerful and secure OS than IOS or Android. It could have a future.
In what way is it 'more powerful' ? What exactly does it do that cannot be done on iOS or Android ?
More secure ? Only because no one bothers to attack it yet.
> It just needs the apps (although it does come with a full version of Office....)
It is not a 'full version'. It is a 'student and home' version, and there are many bits missing.
Have you seen the Surface retail displays? They are horrendously ugly and confusing. You can't make enough sense of them to even know what box to pick up to buy your chosen model. You could get an RT, a Pro, a keyboard cover, a lighted cover or god knows what else; it all looks alike.
I'm sure they must have been provided by MS (as opposed to purchased by the store like most retail displays) because they are far too awful for any self respecting retailer to put in their stores.
"Now, if it sells for $350, I'd sure take a look."
You think it's going to compete with a Nexus 7 32GBLTE? They still seem to think it's an iPad replacement so expect something more like $700.
Maybe on ebay a few months after the launch when they start giving them away to Microsoft partners.
This idea that manufacturers should sell at a loss to get market share has a flaw. What do you think is the first thing you get taught on an MBA course (no, not how to make a Flaming Ferrari or remove knickers with your teeth)? If you sell at a loss, big sales mean you just go bust faster.
During the life of a product the ASP drops, not increases, so if you start off selling at a loss, where is the plan to make a profit? I don't think Nokia envisage huge volumes: Asus Transformer sized volumes is about what can be expected. And how much does one of those cost? About $600 from Amazon with keyboard.
Either this thing will be as good or better than an iPad and sell for the same money, or it should be scrapped.
Here's the plan.
Big Bill appoints Eflop as Ballsupmores replacement.
M$ shares plummet dramatically as Marc Dillon is appointed as Nokia's new CEO. Nokia's shares surge dramatically as they announce new phones running Android and more importantly - Jolla's OS Sailfish - which brings about Nokia's worth overtaking M$, leading to Nokia buying a majority stake M$ and Dillon temporarily taking over control of Redmond.
Marc Dillon issues a memo/email to all M$ staff, talking of "Burning Platforms" - WindowsRT and Windows Phone 8 are immediately dropped, Windows development is turned towards Linux.
If the price is right, and I am talking £200-£250 then it *might* work, until it is that kinda tempting price it won't. If its not an iPad then it just has to be cheaper until it is well established and has a decent market share which seems to be what they don't understand at the moment. People won't pay a premium for something that does not have the premium brand appeal, deal with it MS.
Steve to Elop: Hey, Nokia is not going into the toilet fast enough for us to buy it dirt cheap like we planned.
Elop: I know how we can crash the company, we'll i introduce a RT tablet.
Steve: That should do it. I got to go, the board called and want to talk,. I suspect they want to up my bonus.
Both "Microsoft" and "Windows" brands are burdens.
Despite the majority of the world's PCs running windows doesn't mean people love windows, or microsoft. They put up with it. When they've got non-microsoft-windows choices in tablet area, they'll go for something they don't yet hate.
I wonder what would've happened if Microsoft had called xbox "Microsoft Windows Vista Game machine"...
I have a Surface RT tablet an it is actually an excellent device, at least for me.
Some of the reasons it beats the iPad for me are;
Comes with Office and the touch cover makes it a viable productivity tool when out and about.
Has a USB port unlike the iPad. Great for when I want to get pictures off my DSLR camera away from home.
Has expandable memory unlike the iPad.
Has HDMI out unlike the iPad. Handy for use with monitors or playing video on the TV.
Screen is better aspect ratio for viewing films and for productivity.
Can play video wirelessly direct to a smart TV with DLNA. (no need for Apple TV etc)
Can browse the web and read emails as well as the iPad (yes really)
Long battery life.
Kick stand is handy.
I don't care about a million fart aps or games really, although Halo is pretty good on the Surface. Android tablets are the wild west and I just want something that works.
I also have a powerful laptop which has taken over the role of a desktop PC.
Where Microsoft have screwed up was going in at too high a price for an unknown device, and with abysmal marketing. The Surface RT should have been a hit and it's a lost opportunity, but maybe just maybe Nokia can do things a bit better.
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