Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
I understand why they feel the need to do it, but who checks the security staff (or management, or whoever it is) ?
Two Apple store staffers, who say they are fed up with out-of-hours bag searches, are suing the iPhone giant for compensation. The pair's class-action lawsuit claims the Cupertino company is bent on preventing "employee pilferage" and forces workers to wait in a queue for up to ten minutes to have their handbags or "personal …
If you don't like *our* employment legislation... there's the border (but just remember to pay off all that overtime on your way out)
And let's bear in mind that this is retail- i.e. in this case it's about Apple selling things, not making or developing them- so if a given company wanted to (say) throw a strop and close all their shops, they don't have the same value (and hence leverage) as a factory or software development centre. It's quite likely their place would be filled by someone else who wants to sell the same or similar items.
Incidentally, this is why the Google spokesperson was weasellishly disingenuous when being interviewed about the Google UK ads tax dodge a couple of months back. He implied that Google would like to invest more in the UK- implying that more development jobs could come here if conditions were more favourable. But of course, the profits that Google was avoiding paying tax on in the case being discussed had nothing to do with that- they were on advertising *sales* in the UK and aimed at UK companies (and their customers)... not development jobs.
If Google wants to negotiate favourable terms for investing in development jobs in the UK, one might- or might not- be willing to consider this if it's in our benefit. But that's certainly not the same as selling ads here, and if Google wanted to stop doing *that* in the UK because the tax loophole had been closed, then they'd be quite at liberty to take their ball, go home and let someone else grab the business instead.
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If that happens to me (phone ringing at knock-off time) then I take that time back the next day. Most workplaces are flexible and if they aren't, you're right, you should look for a new job.
I think the employees are absolutely right. If Apple want them to take a security check, they should be paid for the time. And if they're not, they can tell Apple to do one.
Suing is just setting a precedent for the rest of the employees, good on them I say. Too many employers rely on "goodwill" from their employees, when we all know that if push came to shove, they'd lay us off in a heartbeat if the business needed it.
It is still against American labor laws to be engaged in ANY company required activity and not be paid if you are an hourly employee.
That's why it's a matter for the court. It's the law, see?
As for why how long, hourly employee usually can't afford lawyers. And this complaint may have taken this long just to get filed by the lawyers, who first have to make sure they even HAVE a case. An investigation that is not done overnight.
Lawyers and the courts are not known for their speedy service.
There is reason to dawdle since as long as the action is ongoing there is no statute of limitations and it only makes sense to have the greatest possible injury as it gets the greatest possible payout. I expect that if it is as pervasive as they say there will be class action rumblings starting shortly. This could end well, for the lawyers.
During my student years, I used to work in the local PoundLand for extra beer money, and they used to do very strict searches on all staff as they left the building. Cash office staff I could understand, but what would us shelf lackeys be able to steal other than a bottle of Jucee Squash or a Chinese knock-off Moshi Monsters Lip Gloss set?
Most shops in the Rag trade lose FAR more.
The door way security systems are to convince staff that "shrinkage" can't be blamed on the public.
They are often set sensitive at first and then turned down to reduce the false positives. Professional thieves know how to beat them.
The Motion sensor for alarm system behind & above till is often covert CCTV.
"Let them move to some socialist commie state where they can live off other people's tax payments."
I realise that you're trolling, but it's quite the opposite- once those people are paid for the time they've had wasted on their employer's behalf, they'll be paying *more* tax on that.
Christ what next - suing as your train was late, suing as you had to park at the far end of the car park, suing as a colleague bought in cake on their birthday and you felt obliged to eat it and had to do another 10 minutes at the gym? Where does it end.
If you don't like the job / conditions - do everyone a favour and leave.
Were you aware that if your train is delayed by an hour or more you are most likely due compensation.
If your tube journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more then your journey should be gratis.
Your examples are all based on your own choice, the employees are not given the choice to leave without having their bag checked.
It's about compensation, people should be properly compensated for what they do.
What would be the problem with keeping them on the clock for the time they spend being checked?
I don't work for free, and you're not doing yourself or anybody else any favours if you do.
Work to Live, not the other way round.
> the employees are not given the choice to leave without having their bag checked.
Of course they have a choice - they can get a job somewhere else or start their own business or... But no, they take the root of the typical hand-wringing liberal and sue the people who actually make money.
I love all of the "find another job" comments, spoken by people who have obviously been blessed enough to never have been job-hunting in a poor economy.
Given your options for solving lack of job satisfaction, can we assume that you support setting minimum wage to zero, and elimination of the Department of Labor and OSHA? After all, none of those are needed if all job concerns can be taken care of by simply getting a new job. Totally free market right, what could possibly go wrong?
> who have obviously been blessed enough to never have been job-hunting in a poor economy.
And there is a job, there is *ALWAYS* a job. People only say their isn't when they are too stuck-up to take a job that's on offer. This is why social benefits encourage laziness and need to go. GET A JOB! ANY JOB! There is no excuse (maybe disability) for being unemployed and living off the tax raised by others.
Because there is so much fun, in an Ealing comedy way, to be had here.
Imagine *every* employee turns up with a bag with hundreds of dummy iPhone/iPads/iPods inside ?
And of course bags containing fermented Norwegian fish products ...
On a more prosaic note, could the staff and management not discussed this and come up with a solution ? I mean of the top of my head, how about secure lockers outside the stock area ? I.e. what any other company would have done ?
Alternatively, how long would Apple continue with this policy if the checks started taking hours rather than minutes ? After all, the security guards have to be paid for the time they are there. If these checks started costing Apple $200 per shift rather than $20, they'd get the message.
If the staff banded together, and agreed to suffer a little extra pain, for collective gain, they could *easily* win.
The problem is anything which looks and sounds like collective activism in the workplace in the US is regarded with deep suspicion as "socialist". You know. Like universal healthcare.
Luckily some of us did study a bit of history, and know the sacrifices our ancestors had to make to give us the conditions we have today. It would be a poorer world if they had decided against acting because it might "cost a few minutes".
I am against it, because Apple are making their staff pay for *Apples* problem. Apple are free to introduce the security measures they feel appropriate (Clearly those security measures haven't gone as far as making an unsold/unactivated device inoperable) but they can't make the staff pay for such measures (with their time).
Personally I am against companies who want to own their employees - and the US leads the way here. Rafts of companies testing employees for alcohol, and inviting ones "with a problem" to "address the issue" or get a new job. If *my* employer want's to mandate what I do outside the office, they can pay up or shut up.
I had an interview for a US owned company* that included tobacco testing in their contract. Positive and you are disciplined. They only hired non-smokers.
*Kalamazoo for doubters.
"I had an interview for a US owned company* that included tobacco testing in their contract. Positive and you are disciplined. They only hired non-smokers."
Surely that is discrimination....
.... Oh wait, I forgot. Smokers are one of the few minorities you are allowed, nay, encouraged to discriminate against.
Reminds me of a South Park episode (as does everything at the moment)
TOUR GUIDE: We have to accept people for who they are and what they like to do. Hey! What the hell are you doing?
SMOKER: Oh I was just uh-
TOUR GUIDE: There's no smoking in the museum!
SMOKER: But I'm not in the museum.
TOUR GUIDE: Get out of here, you filthy smoker!
KYLE'S FATHER: Yeah, dirty lungs!
Mmmm!.... Hakarl and durian fruit salad.
Personally I'd just use the products to create a Massive torrent server inside the store.
or something similar..... anyone remember that guy who broke up acrimoniously with his girlfriend, went on holiday for a few weeks expecting the house to be a tip. He returned to find the house neat and clean,except for the phone, off the hook , with a foreign sounding voice on the other end.
She'd phoned the Japanese speaking clock.
So instead just let them walk out with the stock? Hmm...
Ever wonder why they check / cross check the cash tallies in a bank - or even when you pay in £500 it really is £500 - what disrespect they should just trust you of course?
iPhones at £400-500 a pop are pretty pocketable and I'd imagine they must have lost quite a few.
Just pay you for the extra time.
Or make you finish 10 minutes early so you have 10 minutes to get checked.
Or Get better detection and searching tech so it doesnt take all that time.
TBH, as far as phones are concerned, in europe, they can all be remotely locked via their IMEI numbers, so the fact they cant seem to do this with phones nicked from the store in the US seems to be a failiure of will on Apple's part.
"So instead just let them walk out with the stock? Hmm..."
If you don't trust your staff to the extent of searching them twice a day, it begs the question "why did you hire them?" and "What are you not doing as an employer that makes them feel that they have good reason to steal stuff?"
Granted, nobody is perfect and bad apples slip through, but the extent of the intrusion is indicative of a company who has ZERO faith in the people they hired who are implicitly in a role which requires them to be trusted. That's a failure of the company, not the staff, and not the few bad apples.
"...So instead just let them walk out with the stock? Hmm......"
Or you could do something really simply like have your time clock by the door, and perform the bag checks while the employees are leaving, so they can clock out immediately after.
Or is that too much of a strain for common sense?
You really reckon it's unfair to check people are not taking resellable, £500 a pop iPhones / other kit? Guess banks and jewellers just work on trust and don't mind the employees taking the odd Rolex or ring?
And FFS why should they have CCTV to spy on me putting cash in the till? That's it - unless a company has no issue with me taking whatever stock and money I like I'm not working for them ;)
Now while I am dead against the (generally American, but increasingly the rest of the world's) problem of "sue first", I do agree with the principals involved here.
Many on here will be salaried. In most salaried positions, you will do some overtime without expecting payment. For extended periods, you may expect some time off in lieu. But then, you are likely in a reasonably well paid job, and this behaviour is expected.
For those who are hourly paid, especially on lower rates, there is an expectation that you are paid for all the time that you are doing something mandated by your employer. Others have already mentioned that this is a legal requirement in the US. As these searches were a requirement, I do believe they should be paid for that time.
In addition, there are no details, but it is possible that they tried to reach an agreement with their employers first. If so, the legal system exists for these cases. If not, I have to ask (as should the court): Why not?
Getitng more and more common.
As a (UK) contractor searches were common when doing work for larger retail (etc) chains. Jobs I did for tesco, TK Maxx and Iceland (the "food" retailer, not the country) all involved bag checks on the way in and out.
Presumably both because some contractors were thieving sods (like some would be from any group of people) AND because when contractors are in thieving staff used to rob them blind and simply blame aforementioned contractors.
IIRC the "TK Maxx" contract our company insisted on the searches rather than the standard of the other company insisting.
Of course as a contractor you got paid for this.
I assume the worry is that nefarious iEmployee removes an iThingy from inventory, and its attendant security tag, stuffs it in their bag and leaves at the end of the day. There is then a search, and they are caught.
Surely the half-thinking nefarious iEmployee would just do all of the above, but have a partner in crime who visits as a "shopper" who leaves with the iDevice in his or her bag, and isn't searched on account of being a customer.
When I worked in places in the past the where searched where it was quick and painless taking less than a minute or two that's fine,
Others where it took longer we were either paid for the time spent waiting to be searched or we got to knock off earlier than usual for the search.
No one in the right mind would dispute that apple is well within there rights to search its employees upon leaving the shop, they have to protect them selves after all, but in the same respect the staff can't be expected to stop back ages waiting to be searched.
I can see apples point of view that they need to do these are there is a lot of stock that's worth a lot to them. But on the other hand you can't expect the staff to wait around forever and a day to be searched unpaid.
The answer is simple, use either of the examples above of leaving earlier, getting paid for the time spent, or making it really quick.
The answer is simple, use either of the examples above of leaving earlier, getting paid for the time spent, or making it really quick.
I'd guess it would become self policing. If the employees are being paid for the time spent checking, the time spent checking will be as short as possible. Of course if the *employees* are paying for it, then it will become as long as possible.
Bang on: no-one should be complaining about the security, the only issue is that the time waiting for it is unpaid.
Tangentially, the most creative and sensible scheme I've seen involved having a pack of cards in a gambling casino-type "shoe" on the security guard's desk. Every employee took a card, and if it had a big red dot on it, then their bags were searched; no red dot, no search.
Management could increase or decrease the number of cards with dots, but it was obviously and manifestly random and so extremely effective without being intrusive.
This is pretty black and white in terms of compensation, it would seem to me. The time should be compensated at the legal amounts. What may be difficult is that the amount required will differ based on State, as I believe employment standards differ between states... I know in Canada, our Provinces have different standards.
I would assume the issue was brought up to management at the store to no avail... which would have precipitated the legal action. These type of law suits are not uncommon, and are viable and valid ways to deal with multiple interpretations of law - you get a judge to... well... judge.
Hope the requirements are clarified and suitable compensation is offered as/if required,
Wow. Imagine what the do at the factories in Shenzhen:
Queue here, stand here, remove clothes, bend over...
All unpaid at $0.02 /hour or $1 per week compared to $3000 per week when calculated at TC's (Top Cat/Tim Cooke's ) rate.
Shameful... but all driving value back to the shareholders so it can't be bad...
then it follows you will treat your customers likewise.
What is to stop an dishonest employee from giving an acquaintance, visiting a store, the goods he wants taken out illegally?
Nothing. I usually decline to do business with stores like that as they usually penalise staff for loses, too.
There is a hotel in Hoi An, VietNam, that uses the same scheme, and after I and a fellow employee (we were on a hotel qualification inspection) filmed the process each day.
After a few days a manager approached me and asked what I was filming. I explained my purpose of checking hotels and that we filmed his 'security' inspections to give negative publicity to our trade clients (travel agents and tour operators) which is part of our business.
A couple of days later it had stopped and, after checking for a year, still remains a thing of the past.
Near my office there is a supermarket where, in public near the store entrance, all employees are scanned and hand searched even if they go to the toilets. And that includes the manager.
I asked him who had key access to the store and he replied five people. I asked what was to stop them returning after hours and pinching something
He replied nothing. I said it was therefore pointless searching them and they, too, stopped.
If employees want to steal product, they will, but that does NOT excuse their employer from humiliating them.
I've been wondering why something like this hasn't happened already. My wife works for a major retail store (non-mall attached) and they have to deal with this same thing. She easily loses an hour per week while waiting. There are no fast food places within reasonable walking distance either, so almost everybody packs a lunch, which means that almost everybody has something to search.
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