Mint 15 freshens Ubuntu's bad bits

Mint is a relative newcomer to the world of popular desktop distros, but it has recently started to take the GNOME and Unity-hating Linux world by storm. The recent release of version 15, called Olivia, should help it secure a reputation as “the” alternative desktop. If you'd like a modern set of desktop tools without a …

[davtom]

Alternative to Windows?

If you want to try abandoning the Windows world (and who wouldn't, especially with Windows 8 in the world), I recommend Mint. I use Mint at home on my main desktop PC and my laptop, and I am productive using it. Only my laptop now has a variant of Windows on it, and I rarely boot into it.

Of course, whether you can or not depends on what you do and what software is available to support it.

[frank ly]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

I find that Mint 13 MATE is an excellent replacement for Windows XP on my laptop, twin screen desktop and Eee PC, and I'm willing to accept its little quirks. When I'm happy with something then I tend to stick with it; but I might try the latest version and Cinnamon on a spare hard drive, just to be totally safe.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

I installed it on my old Sony Vaio laptop - currently using Windows 7. My children use it on Windows - the main things they go on are Netflix and Milkshake/Channel 5 On Demand.

Out of the box, neither work. Youtube works lovely but the video's on Channel 5 On Demand do not.

I got a package, from a repository, to use Netflix - it opens in a window and is using Firefox and Wine.

I think its one of the best Linux distros but does need work against functionality that works out of the with Windows 7. I wouldn't go with Windows 8 so am going to migrate it fully to Linux mint.

[CatoTheCat]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

C5oD works fine on my EeePC with Mint14.

[itzman]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Oddly it doesn't here.

wont load. Not sure why. Flash is there.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

It is still outperformed by Windows 7 and Windows 8 though - e.g. faster large file copy, faster 3D graphics, etc.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

>I recommend Mint.

Only if you don't want to use Office. Or Photoshop. Or AutoCAD. Or play games. Or use video services. Or use NTFS discs (NTFS use kills the CPU on Linux, a very well known bug they can't be bothered to fix). AND your users don't mind using the command line every few minutes.

"How do I fix this?"

"Well, open a terminal and grep foo/bar with the wibble switch.

Now take the n-th item and echo that into /dev/thingy (remembering to re-align your byte arrays or you'll trash your data.

Finally, switch bit 3,457,234 of the main module (or recompile from source) and you are done.

Simple"

Or...you know...use a user focused OS and "Control Panel/Relevant Settings/Obvious options/ [on | off]"

Then we get into all the forking that's going on. X, Wayland, Mir...AND all the DEs! And GUI kits! So you have to re-write your application about 10 times...no, 20 (sorry, I forgot the deb/rpm thing) times in order to deploy.

All for a sector that is less than 1%. An utterly pointless and futile task as after you have done all that hard work, the users want it (and all support) for free (as in zero cost).

The is a reason that Windows (with OS X some way back in the distance) won the game. A clear vision, clear direction and dependable platforms. Something Linux can't (wont!) offer. This is why Linux fails and this is why it will continue to fail.

[I think so I am?]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Are you Nodae?

[Nick Ryan]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Dammit.

See icon.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

@AC 12:03

"The is a reason that Windows (with OS X some way back in the distance) won the game. A clear vision, clear direction and dependable platforms. Something Linux can't (wont!) offer. This is why Linux fails and this is why it will continue to fail."

Interesting if obsolete view but its your opinion. I run linux on all 3 of my systems, one of which was a win7 laptop that didnt have the power to run win7 (not MS's fault the lappy wasnt up to it) yet mint 14 runs perfectly on it.

As I have full disk encryption for work it naturally ruled out windows but I do have a win7 partition on my beefy machine to play games. Once steam ports most of their games to linux however I will be using windows even less.

My girlfriend also runs mint because its easier than windows for what she does. She also hates the many install screens for her work programs (she is not IT) so it is better to just click install and have it complete itself without hassle.

As a developer I did use windows but it was a pain installing various tools which linux have as a standard. Not forgetting the compatibility between linux and most file systems which doesnt seem to exist in windows. You can say that NTFS uses a lot of CPU on linux but ext filesystems are inaccessible to windows.

I find office on linux (libre office) is far superior to MS office unless MS did some proprietary nonsense that hasnt been accounted for. I base that on readable formats, a good interface and price.

The point I am making is that you seem to claim that linux isnt as good as windows while forgetting linux provides most of the stuff you have to download or buy separately for windows.

Which OS is best is a personal preference. I can easy list good and bad for linux and windows and people who use it could do the same for the BSD's. I have a windows system, I use it for games. Some people would prefer it to work on. I prefer working on linux. In the end we all get the job done.

[Jay108]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Wow that's a lot of FUD. Using NTFS partitions just fine here in Ubuntu / Mint / CentOS? No slowdown, no CPU spikes? Considering Ubuntu / Mint makes installing software and performing tasks via a GUI, which tasks are you using which requires the command line? Even for NTFS support I used a GUI.

Sure Linux has its faults and yes forking can be a pain but how does this prevent you using software via Wine? As far as I knew it works just as the developers intended under Mint 15.

[Captain Scarlet]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

I use both Windows and Mint if I am honest.

I did use CentOS but recently Mint has suited me much better,

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

> Wow that's a lot of FUD

FUD? Facts Usually Documented? Sure. I can cite sources.

> Using NTFS partitions just fine here in Ubuntu / Mint / CentOS? No slowdown, no CPU spikes? Considering Ubuntu / Mint makes installing software and performing tasks via a GUI, which tasks are you using which requires the command line?

Sorry...are you asking if it's OK? Well, I can tell you it isn't.

Yes there are MASSIVE CPU spikes. Hell, why not read the bug report.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ntfs-3g/+bug/392204

This is six years old. SIX YEARS OLD! And in the time they have forked everything three times but not once have they managed to fix a critical bug for the de facto disc format standard. FAIL! EPIC FAIL!

>how does this prevent you using software via Wine?

Because it does not work and if I need WINE I may as well save myself all the stress on Linux and use proper Windows.

[Ian 55]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

At one point, I had /home on an NTFS partition, a) because I could and b) because the Carbonite online backup service won't touch anything that's not on NTFS or FAT (on Windows). I don't remember any problems.

After a while, I stopped - I simply wasn't booting into Windows except to install the latest round of patches. When the necessary reboot happened I just went back into Mint. I dumped Carbonite for something better

I still have an NTFS partition, and I am typing this while, in a terminal, I do a MD5 sum of everything in the My Documents folder there. On a Core2Duo system, mount.ntfs is taking 2-3% CPU and md5sum is taking the same.

Given the state of available official documentation when the drivers were first written, I don't think that's so bad.

[NumptyScrub]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

quote: "This is six years old. SIX YEARS OLD! And in the time they have forked everything three times but not once have they managed to fix a critical bug for the de facto disc format standard. FAIL! EPIC FAIL!"

I mainly use Windows, and for all their good points Microsoft are just as capable of ignoring bugs for long periods. They also like the idea of massively restrictive DRM, locking in consumer choice and all sorts of other "bad practise" performed by pretty much all the large corporates in the IT sphere.

Also, LOL at "de facto disk format standard". I strongly suspect you are accidentally (or deliberately) forgetting about Android and iOS devices, which do not use NTFS on their internal storage, and USB storage devices and media cards, which come pre-formatted to FAT32 in most cases. I do not think you can claim NTFS is a "de facto disk format standard" without applying so many restrictions on the included device types to make the whole statement effectively irrelevant.

I'm a Windows tech, with a vested interest in Windows. I even prefer Windows 8 to Windows 7 (even though I realise this is heresy, and Win8 is an abomination unto Nuggan). If I can spot the flaws in your anti-Linux rant, you way want to tighten up your arguments a little ;)

[Eddy Ito]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

"... I may as well save myself all the stress on Linux and use proper Windows."

I don't see the problem. If you prefer Windows then by all means use Windows. What's the point of a rant on Mint/Linux? You're right, you can't use AutoCAD on Linux but you can use DraftSight. Personally, I've had nothing but problems running my older acad on Win 7 so switching made sense for me but if it doesn't work for you, stick with what does. Whinging about it is all a bit juvenile. Do you whinge about shoes too? I mean it's plainly obvious the ones that don't fit are uncomfortable pieces of crap and the laces are too short and the sole doesn't provide enough traction but these shoes over here are wonderful and cradle your feet so it feels like walking on air so only only an EPIC FAIL would make someone choose the other shoes. Is that about right?

[Flocke Kroes]

de facto disc format standard

As people usually have far more DVD's than computers, my guess at the de facto disc format standard would be UDF. There are plenty of CD's kicking around, so I think ISO is in second place. All the USB and SDHC SSD's I have ever seen came formatted with vfat, so that is almost certainly in third place.

Android installations outnumber Windows by a hefty margin. They have a wide selection of different file systems to choose from, which could split each file system's share below the installed base of NTFS or exFAT. On the other hand, Android devices are often delivered with about three partitions. I have not used Windows for over a decade, but if things have not changed, new Windows computers come with one partition covering the entire disk, so they only get one vote and not threeish. I very much doubt that NTFS (or exFAT) can claim 4th place, and we have not even counted smart TV's, routers or sat navs yet.

There is no way that NTFS can come remotely close to being called the de facto standard file system.

[Anonymous Coward]

@AC 13:00

Again, great points here and every one is downvoting you with no explanation as to how a bug of that magnitude hasn't been fixed for this long. I like Linux, use it every day at work, use it at home, actually prefer it to Windows as I'm not much of a gamer and that's the only thing Windows has on it in my opinion.

Having said all that though it's obviously not perfect, the way some Linuxtards on here will just stick their head in the sand at legitimate criticisms of the platform as well as painting anyone who brings up these criticisms as Microsoft schills is insane. It's actually like dealing with a bunch of children sometimes.

[P. Lee]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Using NTFS on linux as something other than as a convenience while migrating?

You're doing it wrong.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

You've predictably got shit loads of down votes for this comment, but to be fair I think there are some decent points here.

[Ru]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

The is a reason that Windows (with OS X some way back in the distance) won the game. A clear vision, clear direction and dependable platforms

No-one can "win" this particular game; only maintain a temporary lead. I would posit that Microsoft's current actions with regards to Windows 8 fail to show "clear vision, clear direction and dependable platforms".

Meanwhile, the market for desktops is looking pretty moribund, and laptops aren't exactly looking healthy. On the other hand the market in tablets and phones remains very healthy, and a substantial chunk of it runs Linux.

Then we get into all the forking that's going on. X, Wayland, Mir...AND all the DEs! And GUI kits! So you have to re-write your application about 10 times...no, 20 (sorry, I forgot the deb/rpm thing) times in order to deploy.

If you want to write a desktop application for Win8 right now, what do you use? WindowsForms is basically obsolete, WPF has been all but abandoned (the internal devs have largely moved to other projects) and Windows Store is clearly inadequate for a vast number of jobs (great for a calculator widget on your phone, less so for Photoshop). Where's the dependable platform?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Er....Linux is a kernel, nothing more, nothing less.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

No, Linux is the kernel and also the common name for the major distributions based on it.

[Jim 59]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Hi AC, you obviously have bad vibes with Linux. Why not try it, it is free after all. And great CV fodder for you Windows guys.

[Chemist]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

"Hi AC, you obviously have bad vibes with Linux"

He's RICHTO/TheVogon just trolling - does it all the time, often as AC.

[TheVogon]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

"He's RICHTO/TheVogon just trolling - does it all the time, often as AC"

Not me.

He's quite right though. You get what you pay for - if you want an OS that just works you need Windows.

[Peter Mc Aulay]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Raise your hand everyone who recently installed a fresh copy of Windows with all the proper drivers, updates, applications and customisation & had it take less than half a day.

No, thought not.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Just installed Windows 8 on my Asus S7 laptop. It took less than 20 minutes including installing all drivers and automatically updating itself...

[Vic]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

> if you want an OS that just works you need Windows.

An OS that *just* works?

Not for me, thanks.

Vic.

[Not That Andrew]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

You have a couple of good points (the DE fragmentation and what's happening with X11 and Wayland ATM (Although it's log past time X11 was put to bed)), but the rest of your post is nonsense. I've never noticed NTFS hogging the disc under Linux, it's quite possible for a desktop user to never touch the command line, edit a config file or recompi;le anything. Its the distro's problem to package your program, not yours and if your program wont play nicely with some distro, that's usually because of some stupid eccentricity of the distro and thus not your problem. Now if you had complained about RedHat employees rewriting whole subsystems of GNU/Linux at the drop of a hat, or the apparently large number of regressions in recent Kernels you might have a better point.

[Number6]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Finally, switch bit 3,457,234 of the main module (or recompile from source) and you are done.

No, that should be bit 3,457,243 - you transposed a pair of digits.

[Nigel 11]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

You mean, as in fix your problem by running registry editor and setting bit 13 of HKCU\two lines of gobbledgook\...

It had to be said.

[Peter Mc Aulay]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Big endian or little endian?

AC, I see your Linux FUD and raise you one Regedit. Q.E.D.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

> The is a reason that Windows (with OS X some way back in the distance) won the game. A clear vision, clear direction and dependable platforms. Something Linux can't (wont!) offer. This is why Linux fails and this is why it will continue to fail.

Halleluyah! I'm wi' you, man!

All these Linux ho's gonna fry in eternal damnation in the firey pit of hell. You sick souls with your heathen operating system: you infect us all with your "command line" and your "different GUI choices", you have fallen from the one true path.

Brothers! Sisters! Come back to the ministry of Microsoft where all things are possible!! Turn back to the true light, the one OS. Only there can salvation be found!!!

Amen!

[frank ly]

@skelband Re: Alternative to Windows?

Here mate, chew on this cinnamon flavoured mint; you'll feel better soon.

[elderlybloke]

Re: @skelband Alternative to Windows?

skelband is using something called Humour .

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

BTW, happy Mint/MATE user here.

It rocks.

[lost]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Someone beat you with a stupid stick? It is more than obvious you do not know what you are talking about.

[Michael Habel]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Can't use M$ Office 2k3, or some version of Adobe CS Photoshop... LOL me thinks this cad has never heard of WINE. 'Cause I never had any trouble getting any of that stuff to run on Mint 14. (The OS I'm still using BTW!)

[Lars]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

@anonymous 12:03.

I think you forgot linuxconf, seriously there is so much rubbish in your post that either you are just trolling or you tried linux about 15 years ago and gave up.

[asdf]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Not to defend some bugs being ignored for far too long in most operating systems and especially in Oracle's software but the ntfs bug if I remember right might have to do with problems reverse engineering NTFS as Microsoft doesn't believe in interoperability and wouldn't think of doing anything but making it harder for their stuff to be used outside their fiefdom.

[Paul 129]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Ok I'm late to the forums AS usual but I have to reply to this

"(NTFS use kills the CPU on Linux, a very well known bug they can't be bothered to fix)."

For fun try

1. copying the contents of Documents to a network drive.

2. Now while that is happening try zipping documents, and copy the ziped file to the network drive.

If you have any number of documents at all 2 will be faster than 1. Hell in the past your lovely windows would say its all done, when its only copied a subset of your files. So I suppose you could say MS is improving....

[Anonymous Coward]

So glad I switched from Windows to Mint

Honestly, I did not want to, because I had the same idea that getting the drivers (and everything) to work in Linux was a nightmare and I was happy with Windows 7. But when I had to buy a new PC and was forced to use Windows 8 it was too much nonsense to put up with, so I gave Mint a try and I am really impressed.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

""Well, open a terminal and grep foo/bar with the wibble switch." (and other assorted drivel)

Just curious - when did you last try Linux? 1990?

[sisk]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Only if you don't want to use Office

You don't need Office when you have LibreOffice, but if you absolutely MUST have Office it runs under Wine.

Or Photoshop

http://www.unixmen.com/how-to-install-photoshop-in-ubuntu-and-linuxmint/ (Just in case you don't want to deal with Gimp's learning curve, and I really don't blame you).

Or AutoCAD

Ok, you got me there. However: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/non-linux-foss-autocad-alternatives (and, lets be honest here, AutoCAD isn't exactly the most common need)

Or play games

Steam for Linux. Nuff said. (Disclaimer: serious gamers should stay in Windows land....we are finally getting good games on Linux, but they big titles are still Windows only.)

Or use video services

I haven't used it (because I use my bluray player and 50in TV for Netflix), but there's a Netflix desktop app for Linux now.

Or use NTFS discs (NTFS use kills the CPU on Linux, a very well known bug they can't be bothered to fix).

I use NTFS with Linux all the time, mostly to transfer files back and forth between my two OSes since it's far easier to do that than to get Windows to play nice with Linux filesystems. I never have a problem with it.

AND your users don't mind using the command line every few minutes.

Actually with modern distros a "normal" user rarely has to look at the command line. I've set systems up for people so that they NEVER had to see it. Power users still do and probably always will because there are some things GUIs just don't do well. Linux recognizes this fact and always has. Even Redmond is figuring it out finally.

"How do I fix this?"

"Well, open a terminal and grep foo/bar with the wibble switch.

Now take the n-th item and echo that into /dev/thingy (remembering to re-align your byte arrays or you'll trash your data.

Finally, switch bit 3,457,234 of the main module (or recompile from source) and you are done.

Simple"

FUD worthy of Microsoft circa 2001 that. There are fixes that go like that, admittedly, but they're rare and of the sort that send normal Windows users into computer repair shops anyway.

Then we get into all the forking that's going on. X, Wayland, Mir...AND all the DEs! And GUI kits! So you have to re-write your application about 10 times...no, 20 (sorry, I forgot the deb/rpm thing) times in order to deploy.

Nope. Write it once for POSIX. Stay away from DE specific libraries and it'll run on any of them. As for deb/rpm, that not a 're-write' thing. It's more of a repackage thing.

The is a reason that Windows (with OS X some way back in the distance) won the game. A clear vision, clear direction and dependable platforms. Something Linux can't (wont!) offer. This is why Linux fails and this is why it will continue to fail.

Wrong again. Windows won because they're locked in with the manufacturers and have been for around 20 years. The average user can't (won't, actually, but they think it's can't) install their own OS so they use the one that came with the computer. That means they use Windows or Mac. With Mac being ludicrously expensive by comparison most people aren't going to buy it. You have to hunt for a computer that comes with Linux, even when you know it exists. Some plebe who's never heard of it has no chance of finding one.

Linux is not for everyone. I realize this and I have, frequently, told people they should stick with Windows after they've seen my Linux system and thought it looked interesting. That said, there is truth and there is FUD. Give people the truth, not this sort of FUD you're spewing.

[Andus McCoatover]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Fuc*k me sideways!!!!!!!

Is that a record 'downvote' count???

Deserved every one.

[MCG]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

Okay, I bit - I downloaded Linux Mint 15 at the weekend, burnt a disc, and installed in on a somewhat idle laptop.

First time I've tried Linux in ages - sadly, it'll probably be the last....

Mint ran fine and looked great, but the laptop's fan NEVER stopped running at full tilt! And looking at the temperatures reported by the sensors revealed why - the damned thing was 10-15 degrees hotter than under Windows 7!

What gives? I posted a plaintive appeal for assistance on the Linux Mint forums, but either nobody has a clue or they can't be arsed :(

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

@MCG

"Mint ran fine and looked great, but the laptop's fan NEVER stopped running at full tilt! And looking at the temperatures reported by the sensors revealed why - the damned thing was 10-15 degrees hotter than under Windows 7!"

Linux generally runs cooler than windows* in my experience. However I have heard of your situation with bad drivers running the graphics at full power constantly. It is the unfortunate joy of the card/chip makers not to support the users. If you are using AMD or Nvidia graphics you may want to try changing the driver in use. Mint should give you some driver options but if they dont work you may need to download drivers.

I hope that helps.

*not an argument starter, just something I have found on my dual boot win7's vs mint 14/15 with temperature read outs. The difference isnt much (2-3 degrees).

[MCG]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

"Linux generally runs cooler than windows* in my experience. However I have heard of your situation with bad drivers running the graphics at full power constantly. It is the unfortunate joy of the card/chip makers not to support the users. If you are using AMD or Nvidia graphics you may want to try changing the driver in use. Mint should give you some driver options but if they dont work you may need to download drivers."

Genius! The damned thing has a Mobility Radeon - if that's running full tilt it would explain the whole thing quite nicely :(

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternative to Windows?

@MCG:

I hear AMD provide aweful linux support but Nvidia aint great either. I can only advise scouting the forums for the best driver version (if anyone knows). Failing that its trial and error. Sometimes changing to an older driver can fix the problem.

Graphics card companies seem to be aweful unless you are running intel graphics. However with steam for linux being released I expect more effort will be made.

If you happen to be running steam it does have an option to update your graphics driver. It might be worth a shot if all else fails.

I am not sure how much help I can be but if I think of anything else I will post up here. I will keep an eye out in case you post any more information about the problem in case I can help

[Peter Mount]

Mint 15 is pretty stable so far

I've been running Mint for years on the desktop - ever since Ubuntu started having issues with wifi from v10 & then Unity & haven't had any major issues with it. Thinks like WiFi just work (almost).

On a desktop running Mint 14 it had intermittent graphics issues causing the machine to hang but so far since 15 was released thats been stable (touch virtual wood).

Might get round to upgrading the lappy to it when I get chance (running M14 at the mo)

[Nigel 11]

Windows into VM

If you have enough RAM and if Windows licensing doesn't block you, it's a good next step to make a Windows VM so that you never have to shut down Linux to run Windows.

[Keith 72]

Re: Windows into VM

Whereas I run Linux in a Hyper-V VM and then never look at it again. Cygwin-X on Windows, ssh into VM and then I've got everything I need.

[Michael Dunn]

Re: Windows into VM

Do it all the time - my one windows program "Finale". Everything else on Mint.

[TheVogon]

Re: Windows into VM

Or just run Linux in Oracle virtual box - then you have far fewer security vulnerabilities to worry about in the native OS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Mint 15 is pretty stable so far

@Peter Mount:

"On a desktop running Mint 14 it had intermittent graphics issues causing the machine to hang but so far since 15 was released thats been stable (touch virtual wood)."

I had a similar issue which I believe is a cinnamon thing. It does seem to be fixed on 15 (or the latest cinnamon). I do have a new problem that sometimes it wont boot up although it seems to have got better after a few recent updates.

I downloaded it pretty much when it was released and I dont think it was ready. It had a few problems it shouldnt have but after a week a lot of them seemed cleared up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Mint 15 is pretty stable so far

> since 15 was released thats been stable (touch virtual wood).

Come on, we know you're touching your real wood.

[MJI]

I stuck mint on an old P4

Occasionally slightly faster than XP but the user moans that it is more difficult to install Minecraft mods.

Haven't yet tested WINE.

Looks more like Windows than Windows 8 TIKFAM

[Nigel 11]

WINE or VM?

Personally I've never had much joy with Wine, whereas a Windows VM under Linux works extremely well, sometimes faster than running Windows native on the same hardware. NB you do need enough RAM for the two O/Ses side by side. Don't try this with Windows 7 on a 2Gb Linux system!

[Keith 72]

Re: WINE or VM?

Assuming that the Linux you've installed natively has all the drivers you need for your graphics, sound, video cam, bluetooth etc. Which is why I leave Windows installed and run Linux in the VM.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: WINE or VM?

@Keith 72:

"Assuming that the Linux you've installed natively has all the drivers you need for your graphics, sound, video cam, bluetooth etc. Which is why I leave Windows installed and run Linux in the VM."

I find the drivers are much easier to locate on linux than windows. Windows is a fine OS but after installation I then need to find all the disks for all the drivers. My linux installs have been pretty much complete when mint has installed. At one point I had to find my multifunction printer drivers but now even that is part of mint 15.

On my last install of windows I had to run mint live from the disk first because I couldnt remember the make of graphics card and win 7 doesnt auto detect.

Windows is a good OS but linux has come a long way. A statement I hear regularly with linux in general.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: WINE or VM?

Windows automatically installs the drivers for over 400 million devices - no disks required. Linux doesn't even come close to that.

[Professor Clifton Shallot]

Re: WINE or VM?

" a Windows VM under Linux works extremely well, sometimes faster than running Windows native on the same hardware"

What sort of tasks produce this sort of results?

[Mystic Megabyte]

Re: WINE or VM?

>>What sort of tasks produce this sort of results?

XP will boot up in a VM in about a quarter of the time that it would have taken natively.

Go figure!

[Nigel 11]

Re: WINE or VM?

What sort of tasks produce this sort of results?

The most spectacular one for me was installing Windows XP + apps (i.e., developing images for deployment). Even after I worked out that VMWare had optimized formatting a virtual disk into an (almost-?) no-op and after adding back the time saved at that point, it was still considerably faster installing into a virgin VM than installing onto the hard disk of the same system natively. Some day, out of curiosity, I may repeat the measurements under native Linux KVM or Virtualbox and with Windows 7, but VMWare workstation on Linux was there first and that's when I was doing this stuff. It's someone else's baby now, and he insists on doing it all the all-MS way.

Why? My guess is that Linux's cacheing of the hard disk to RAM is greatly superior to Windows'. Operations like copying a large folder containing a lot of files were also faster within a VM than when Windows was in direct control of the disk. Or maybe it was just that 32-bit XP couldn't use all 4Gbytes of RAM, but 64-bit Linux could. (In fact so can 32-bit Linux, via PAE, though not all on one single process).

The even greater saving of time was from VMware VM snapshotting. Snapshot - sysprep - image - test depoly - find bugs - what then? On the VM as opposed to a native installation, you just revert to the snapshot, which takes mere seconds (and saves waiting for a boot!), then start fixing the bugs. You can also do much the same at the Linux LVM level, except it's probably a good idea to make sure the VM is shut down at the time you take the snapshot, if the VM is unaware that a snapshot is being taken.

[Ken Hagan]

Re: WINE or VM?

"My guess is that Linux's cacheing of the hard disk to RAM is greatly superior to Windows'."

It could just be as simple as the VM host "optimising" any flush-to-disc operations from the guest. Alternatively, the (modern) host may just know a much better way of accessing the disc than the (10-year-old) XP guest.

I don't doubt your personal experience. I do doubt whether you have the correct explanation.

[FatGerman]

Re: WINE or VM?

Wine, or a VM, is OK if you're browsing the web or tapping away in a text editor. Not so good if I want to have Photoshop and Lightroom going with proper camera-to-screen-to-print colour management and access to the 16-bit printer driver, to quote just one problem. There are no native Linux alternatives. The Linux world doesn't seem to realise that it's Apps (in the modern parlance) that people want, not operating systems. (Don't get me started on the photography software in Linux, all of it falls well below what even a semi-amateur like me needs for productivity, sadly).

[Fibbles]

Re: WINE or VM?

"Personally I've never had much joy with Wine, whereas a Windows VM under Linux works extremely well, sometimes faster than running Windows native on the same hardware. NB you do need enough RAM for the two O/Ses side by side. Don't try this with Windows 7 on a 2Gb Linux system!"

I'm not sure about faster but I'd say you can definitely run Windows in a VM well enough that any loss of performance is so slight as to be unnoticeable.

The problem with running games in VMs though is that they need direct access to graphics hardware via the manufacturer supplied driver. You can't have two operating systems controlling the same graphics card at the same time. This means that your guest OS is using some generic graphics driver supplied by your VM that passes everything onto the host's graphics driver. Not only does this add another layer, it's also not very advanced. These generic drivers are designed so that you can use things like the Aero theme in Windows, not so that you can run the latest games.

I've personally run Counter-Strike at about 50fps inside Virtual Box before (as opposed to several hundred fps in Wine,) but I wouldn't expect something like Crysis to do more than CTD.

I've read that Xen has a way around this which involves installing 2 graphics cards in one PC. One card is used by the host, the other by the guest. If you need to run a game that desperately though, I'd say you're better off dual-booting.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Haven't yet tested WINE.

Wine is far from perfect, but it has moved on *so* much in the last 1 or 2 years such that I hardly recognise it.

Well written programs usually run almost without fault on my system. Most steam games work just fine, I run Left4Dead and it is very playable. Streetlight flares don't look quite right but apart from that, it runs great.

It wasn't very long ago where you expected things to *not* work on Wine.

These days, I'm surprised if it won't run something.

[CatoTheCat]

mint - linux year of the desktop?

I've been installing Mint for friends whose Windows installs have died, none of whom had used Linux before.

All have managed to use it without issue and so far no questions.

So pretty good job, Mint Devs!

[Ben Holmes]

Re: mint - linux year of the desktop?

Hasn't almost EVERY year since about 2001 meant to have been 'the year of the Linux desktop'?

[Christopher Rogers]

Re: mint - linux year of the desktop?

Correct.

Its been painful being a Linux fan and a Liverpool supporter - every year etc...

I have played with Linux for years, but quite frankly I find myself back in the Windows world every time. My Linux machines have all become VMs. Why?

Windows is less hassle. Its full of flaws, but they are familiar and easy to live with flaws. With Linux I was always compelled to tinker for the perfect setup, which I never achieved because I was always looking to tinker....

[jdieter]

less hassels?

yeah right, have you really not had to completely rebuild / reinstall, or buy a new machine as a windows user?

You NEVER have to that with any distro of nix. "oh yes, I'll have to upgrade to fix my pc, how do I copy all my docs and applications etc to my new windows machine?" Oh you have to buy all new versions of your apps and such.. and you have to pay for every new version of windows. less hassel? Busting out my credit card is much more hassel than running apt-get.

[Uncle Slacky]

Mint is "young"?

Dunno where you got that idea - it's been around since 2006 - pretty old in Linux terms.

[Carling]

Re: Mint is "young"?

I was about to say the same thing you beat me to it....

[Sandpit]

I would certainly recommend MINT as the best way to get into Linux. The more people that use Linus the better it will be in the long run and it needs that larger adoption before it can become truely usable for ALL PC uses.

[Nigel 11]

"Usable"

Linux is a perfectly adequate alternative to Windows right now, and has been for years. EXCEPT ...

People often don't want alternatives. They want exact bit-for-bit and feature-for-feature identity. For example, they don't regard Openoffice as an MS office alternative, neither on Linux nor on Windows. Ditto Gimp versus Photoshop (much bigger bucks at stake here). Ditto Octave versus Matlab. Some even object to browsers that aren't MSIE.

And then there are existing organisations that have locked themselves into MS proprietary file formats, and now can't afford to escape. Access databases are one obvious lock-in.

But if you are starting an organisation right now, think long and hard before you let Microsoft get a toe in your door. The best time to break free, is never to enslave yourself in the first place.

[kvsm]

What about...

KDE?

It seems to get a lot of stick although I'm not sure why. These days it's very stable, and every bit as customisable as Cinnamon. I switched to Kubuntu last year after the Ubuntu 12.10 atrocity and it's hard to believe they share any code - Kubuntu is lightning fast whereas Ubuntu has become increasingly slow and bloated.

I did however use Ubuntu 12.04 with Cinnamon for a while and liked it. Cinnamon with Mint, not so much. It just struck me as a less functional version of Ubuntu.

[PhilDin]

Re: What about...

I've been using Mint 14 with KDE since it came out and I've been very happy with it. I'd used OpenSuse for years and tried Kubuntu on and off (it never felt polished when I tried it although that may have been at a low point in the project). I expect to stay with Mint with KDE for the foreseeable future as it's rock solid and nicely polished.

[Nigel 11]

Re: What about...

KDE is probably the "heaviest" of the Linux desktops. If you have a powerful desktop system it's OK. As for whether you like the KDE experience ... try it and see. The nice thing about Linux is that you can choose between desktop UIs at log-in time.

But another good thing about Linux is that it can be very usable on elderly hardware, which you can obtain for free or almost-free because it's not man enough to run Windows 7 comfortably. My feeling is that KDE and Windows 7 desktops are similarly demanding. Something lighter is better on such hardware.

[Paul 135]

Re: What about...

It's not really true that KDE is "heaviest" any more, and rather more of an urban myth these days. The latest 4.10 absolutely flies (and 4.11 is looking even better). Also seen benchmarks and resource utilisation benchmarks shoeing KDE out-performing much of the competition.

[Keith 72]

Re: What about...

I actually think the customisable nature is biggest weakness of Linux. There's tweaking and personalising and then there's obfuscating.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Keith72 - Re: What about...

Don't customize and there will be no weakness. There, I solved it for you!

Freaking out just because you can customize a Linux distribution ? What's next then, monsters under your bed ? Let's not be silly!

[Keith 72]

Re: @Keith72 - What about...

Well all the distros already have customized them. And then every user goes and tweaks it to. That's why the documentation's piss poor on Linux and the forums are often useless because your view of the interface is almost guaranteed to be different than most other peoples.

[Anonymous Coward]

Alternatively..

I'm getting good mileage out of still running Umbongo, but with XCFE instead of the horrible performance-sucking half-baked Unity.

You can do a quick "sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop" or "sudo apt-get install xfce4" if you don't want extra default apps.

New installs can install Xubuntu as a distribution, which works really nicely out of the box, too. The only minor fly in the oinment is that you need to set proxies up manually if you're behind a corporate firewall. However, a couple of mins with google and a text editor sorts that.

I suppose it's partly inertia for me, I don't want to burn down some working boxes, but it seems like a passable environment- polished, fast and easy on the eye- and well supported. However, the nice thing is that you have choice- this option or Mint, both are Free As In Nelson Mandela (or something).

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Alternatively..

"You can do a quick "sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop" or "sudo apt-get install xfce4"

That's a good example of why Linux sucks so much. Yu can add / remove all Windows features from the GUI.

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the first truly usable Linux desktops

Needed a Linux install a few days back and opted to download this (I usually randomly pick any one, jus to see how they have progressed). The last one was Ubuntu, and it put me off immensley (mainly thanks to the horrible Unity).

This however impressed me so far. I still have how all Linux distros are heavilly intertwined with Firefox and assume nobody would ever want to remove it...

[Nigel 11]

Re: One of the first truly usable Linux desktops

Boggle. On any Distro I know, install Chrome or Chromium (or other open browser of your choice) and then forget about Firefox until you are sure you are happy with your chosen replacement. Then use the package manager to un-install Firefox, if you are really keen to reclaim a smallish amount of disk space.

Or you could close your eyes and jump: un-install Firefox first and then install Chrome or whatever. You can always put Firefox back later.

[Richard 22]

Re: One of the first truly usable Linux desktops

"This however impressed me so far. I still have how all Linux distros are heavilly intertwined with Firefox and assume nobody would ever want to remove it..."

Did you try removing it with Synaptic? Search firefox, right click "Mark for removal". Click Apply.

I haven't done this myself as I like Firefox, but I really don't think Firefox has any special place in any linux distro (other than being standard issue on many).

[Jamie Kitson]

Re: One of the first truly usable Linux desktops

Yes, it's the year of Linux on the desktop!

[Rukario]

The year of Linux on the desktop?

What was the first year of that proclamation? I can recall 1998 though don't have any references (other than the neurons in my head-type-thingy). Can anyone either confirm my memory, or improve upon the date?

[keithpeter]

Re: One of the first truly usable Linux desktops

@AC 12:26

"(I usually randomly pick any one, jus to see how they have progressed)"

Have a look at Stella Linux sometime.

CentOS 6.4 remix with sensible non-overlapping repositories and multimedia already installed. Firefox ESR as usual but appears to be uninstallable via synaptic without The Sky Falling.

[Mage]

I may try this

Just spent 4 days faffing with Debian 7 ...

The Desktop "Network manager" is broken if you want to configure static IP wired ethernet.

The Samba configuration is still pants, the Nautilus create SMB share worked in ver 6, not in this. Debian v6 the password sync worked, on 7 inexplicably only one account worked, the others needed the SMB password separately created with command line tool. With SWAT the working shares don't appear listed and it claims SMBD isn't running!

Debian 7 wouldn't read a LVM configured disk, so had to boot a drive with Debian 6, copy disk to a disk and then reboot Debian 7.

Firefox? Debian uses the alterego Iceweasel.

It's the insistance on Bluetooth and Evolution "built-in" to gnome 3 that baffles me.

I look forward to trying Mint + cinnamon.

[tsdadam]

Awesome, but...

I've run Mint almost exclusively on my recent cheapo Lenovo laptop, and it's been brilliant. There's genuinely almost no reason left to boot into Windows for me now, and I love Cinnamon. Cinnamon + alt tab coverflow switching + windows 7 style grouped tasks addons = nigh on perfect for me.

Why nigh? Well, because despite the majority of high street laptops coming with 16:9 screens, there's still no option of a vertical panel in Cinnamon. Windows and Unity manage it, and I know the likes of XFCE does too, but I want it in Cinnamon, and can't have it. That precious vertical screen real estate is still eaten by the panel.

I know there are options like installing Cairo or Docky and using that, but I want the bona-fide original panel there.

Christ, that looks like a whinging post, and it shouldn't be. Mint 14 was great, Mint 15 is better.

[frank ly]

Re: Awesome, but...

By 'panel' do you mean the docking 'toolbar' and 'system tray' on the bottom of the screen?

On Mint 13 MATE, I've got pop-out panels (i.e. set to autohide) on the top, left and right of my screen and leave the bottom (system) panel fixed; though I could make it autohide if I wanted by calling up its Properties and ticking the appropriate box. It's great, it reminds me of Windows XP, ahhhh.........

[Wardy01]

This hardcore windows user slightly impressed

As a long term windows user and C# developer I spend most of both personal and professional life in a windows environment.

The comment above by anon was started by a quote I posted in another thread.

That thread talked about yet another mess that the gnome team had gotten themselves in by forking and changing stuff from 2.0 to 3.0

This I have to say is making me question the my previous claim on the poor validity of Linux as a desktop OS.

I have found Ubuntu to be a bit of a pain in the past even from the install point of view as something in my hardware seems to cause the installer to fail without some command line switches from the get go.

This is my main objection to ubuntu but it comes with a few more concerns.

I refer to Ubuntu because arguably it's seen as one of the leading distros that is really pushing people to try Linux these days but similar things can be said of just about any distro.

If Mint really does fix these type of things and then excel and improve in so many ways I may have to revisit linux in the near future and when i do, mint will be my starting point.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: This hardcore windows user slightly impressed

You didn't seem to notice but with Linux nobody is pushing you anywhere. Unlike Windows, you go with it only if you really want it and you're also free to leave it anytime you feel like.

[Fading]

Broken it already.....

But then fixed it. Not Mint's fault but just a little warning to AMD/ATI gpu owners out there. I use dual screens which work fine with the installed driver (2D) but won't run any 3D direct compute (open CL) - obviously. Now the word of warning - if you have a HD 6XXX or 7XXX (6570 or 7750 in my experience) do not use the flgp drivers and then try to extend the desktop - kills cinnamon stone dead and trying to back track creates havok in the gnome-like fall back desktop.

Install the latest drivers from the AMD website and extend (multi desktop on multi monitors) in Catalyst. Other than that - nice clean desktop environment and looking forward to trying the L4D2 beta when I get home tonight (no games huh?)

[breakfast]

I installed Mint as a secondary OS on my laptop and after a week or two of using Windows 8 it became my primary OS. It is very windowsy, but that works pretty well for me and the quirks it has are not too outrageously quirky- no worse than OSX, better than Win8 - although if this release tidies some of them up, that will be a big relief.

It would be nice to be able to do an upgrade in place, though- they have reasons for suggesting burning a new installer disk and I'm sure the upgrade process will be quite smooth, but I'll have to run it off a USB drive, which is always a bit tiresome to sort out.

[Anonymous Coward]

@breakfast

You can upgrade in place but they dont recommend it and you should backup first (caution is always good). However if you partitioned off your various directories you can do a clean install, untick 'format this partition' and set their mount points as they were. I did the second option.

[Ian 55]

The in place upgrade from Mint 14 to 15 was the most trouble free yet. I needed to install Mint Drivers myself, and I think that was it.

It shouldn't be any trouble at all, of course. Both Debian and Ubuntu manage it ok.

[Mystic Megabyte]

@breakfast

>>but I'll have to run it off a USB drive, which is always a bit tiresome to sort out.

Install Unetbootin on your Mac/Windows/Linux box: http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/

Download the .iso of your choice

Plug in a USB stick or SD card

Use Unetbootin to make a bootable drive in less than five minutes.

Tiresome? Has your manservant died?

[Anonymous Coward]

mint is the most rubbish spice ever invented, in case you don't know it will cool down curries

why would anyone want to do such an abominable action?

[Thecowking]

It's worse than that, have you seen what happens when somone plants it in a garden?

Nuking from orbit is really the only way to be sure. Sadly my landlord frowns on me deploying warheads in the garden so it's just a constant struggle.

[Professor Clifton Shallot]

A farmer friend of mine was looking at commercial mint growing (for essential oil) and had great big bare patches in the field dedicated to this.

I am sure that whatever was stopping the mint growing there would be more valuable than the actual crop.

[CJR]

Cinnamon!

Mint is the 'erb, Cinnamon is the spice ...

[Captain Hogwash]

Re: spice

Mint is a herb, not a spice. As for being rubbish, try a Pimm's without it and see how much less satisfying the experience is.

[Number6]

Catnip is a member of the mint family, my cats think it's great.

[Anonymous Coward]

@scoot76

And windows are smashed more than anything else, what a joy as a kid.

[Richard 22]

Ubuntu LTS

It's worth noting that because Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu, the recent change in Ubuntu support lengths means that this release will only be supported for something like 8 months. It's support period will end before that for Linux Mint 14.

It's possible to enable backports (tick-box option in Software Sources) to receive the Cinnamon and Nemo 1.8 updates on LM14. Things aren't quite as slick as they would be on vanilla LM15 (2 settings managers) but it's pretty good. I'm holding off updating until LM16 / Cinnamon 2.0, which (I expect) will be based on an Ubuntu LTS release.

[Anonymous Coward]

thumbs down?

can anyone on this website cook?

just curious?

Ubuntu, whilst a toy for most, is wank, there, I said it, please feel free to disagree

[CJR]

Re: thumbs down?

I disagree.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: thumbs down?

> Ubuntu, whilst a toy for most, is wank,

I fail to see the analogy.

Do you mean to compare Ubuntu with ejected semen or with the act of masturbation itself?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: thumbs down?

Not for serious work?

Nearly all supercomputers like Tianhe II and Titan use Linux these days.

In embedded systems its almost only talk about Linux these days.

A majority of smart phones sold these days are powered by Linux (Android, Bada etc).

Most of the web like google, facebook etc run on Linux.

Microsoft rule the desktop because people are locked in on that platform. But even on the desktop things are moving.

Like International Space Station: http://m.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/10/iss_linux_debian_deployment/

[RealBigAl]

Windows 8 appears to be boosting interest in Linux...

About a month ago I installed Mint to dual boot with my W7 desktop. I almost exclusivley use it now. Just installed in on my Samsung Notebook too. Runs absolutely fine.An I.T. friend (and Windows Phile, even has a Windows Phone) laughed at me until they saw it in action last week. Now they're off to try a dual boot Mint install themselves.

[spegru]

I just upgraded

from Mint12 to Mint15 on my main desktop - on which I get most of my work done

Very Nice, no pain - no issues and no CLI!

For 'work' the killer app for me is Thunderbird email with the lightning calendar plugin

Oh yes and the newest Libroffice

I had my first hands on with Win8 just the other day - 'kin ell! Now I see what they've been talking about

[Jamie Kitson]

"slightly overhauled"

Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?

[Cornholio]

I put Mint 14 XFCE on Wifey's netbook...

...and I generally like it. However, it did take a bit of fiddling to get the wireless to work. Also, Thunar rarely picks up the network drives.

Boots quickly though, and Mrs Cornholio only really want her browser and e-mail client.

[mark l 2]

Using Mint 13 mate on an old dual core Dell laptop and apart from it being an bit of a issue getting the wifi to work at first its been rock solid since. i have a dual boot with Windows 7 but its been months since i logged into the windows 7 partition.

I am not one for reinstalling my OS every few months though so will stick with Mint 13 until the next long term supported release comes along

[druck]

VM ready

Mint gets extra points for having the VirtualBox extensions pre-installed, so it's VM ready straight out of the box.

[spegru]

Re: VM ready

Oh yes indeedy. I also have an XP available to run in a Root Jail c/w MSOffice2007 - just in case I need that, but I never do. I have TomTom (the GPS thing) Home installed also, but actually since I got my new Samsung Phone I never need that any more either.

I keep the XP isolated from the internet to keep those nasty viruses away and just have a shared folder where both the XP and Mint can see, in order to access docs etc

I've been using the same XP VM for a year or so now on different machines. No need to reinstall it.......

[Keith 72]

Re: VM ready

Win 8 Pro is VM ready straight out of the box too.

[Herby]

Another idea...

If you don't like Mint/Ubuntu, you can always go to Fedora.

Yes, that is what I'm using now, and with KDE it does the job quite nicely here at work. I got the Fedora (17) install disk and slapped it in the drive on the brand new Laptop that I was given when I started here, let the partitioner reduce the size of the W7 mess (I gave it some expansion room, but not much), and it worked just fine. I mount the W7 mess and sometimes (not very often!) boot back in W7, but it does the job for me.

Yes, this is just my experience, your mileage will vary (see store for details).

[Nigel 11]

Re: Another idea...

If you like Cinnamon but not so much the rest of the Mint distribution, Cinnamon is also available for Fedora through the standard package installer. In fact downloading Cinnamon is the first thing I do after installing Fedora, because I really dislike Gnome 3 and prefer Ciinnamon to KDE or XFCE. (Haven't checked if Mate is available for Fedora, since Cinnamon made me rather lose interest).

Scientific Linux 7 should be coming fairly soon (3 months after RHEL 7 ships? ), and will be based on Fedora 17. I hope that means I'll be able to install Cinnamon on Scientific Linux, which may come fairly close to perfection in my eyes.

I don't recommend Fedora in general because it's a bit bleeding-edge for my taste, and forces you onto an upgrade treadmill in that there's no long-term support for Fedora releases. However, it does tend to have support for the latest hardware, so I reach for it when SL lacks the hardware support I need.

[Rukario]

Prosyletisation

Where is Mint's usual prosyletiser, as seen on any Microsoft article? The silence is deafening.

OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK UP FOR MINT FAIL.

[wim]

mint support

I use windows xp. I was given that PC as it is. I mainly use it for skype and steam (both should work under linux)

My main system uses an out of date ubuntu and then I have a small laptop that runs mint.

Ubuntu has become too bloated in my opinion and hiding all the options in the recent releases is just annoying. For some reason even a network restart using the command line does nothing. So I am left with the windows trick of 'have you tried turning it on and off' to get a network connection. Upgrading did not work and that is why I am stuck with this unsupported release.

Mint is nice but has some annoyances and the forum has not even bothered to reply to any of my requests for help so I don't know about that. One problem I have is that the webcam works under the admin account but not under a normal user account another problem is the Japanese language support. On my Ubuntu system the switch between languages just works. On my mint system I have to go mess around in the settings panel every time I power down / boot up the laptop. Libre office on Mint crashes on an hourly basis. I never lost data, everything gets recovered but it is not something I can accept to sell to friends / customers.

On the Ubuntu forum I always had (even sometimes good) help.

I am more and more drawn back to Debian because things just work on there and that is for me the most important thing. I use my system for work so I want things to run stable.

Is there a commercially supported stable linux that does not charge an arm and a leg for private use ? The coorporate red hat prices are a bit steep I think.

[eulampios]

Re: mint support

One problem I have is that the webcam works under the admin account but not under a normal user account ...

I think I know what it means. Make sure to have your user join the video group, since:

s -l /dev/video0

crw-rw---T+ 1 root video 81, 0 Jun 27 01:13 /dev/video0

In my case:

grep video /etc/group

video:x:44:eulampios

You can use something like :

usermod -a -G video eulampios

"info usermod" for more information, or via the GUI back-end called mate-users-admin or similar (in Cinnamon control panel you'll see what you're looking for)

I am more and more drawn back to Debian because..

Then you'd like the Debianish flavor of it, LMDE, it's also awesome!

[Nigel 11]

Re: mint support

Is there a commercially supported stable linux that does not charge an arm and a leg for private use ? The coorporate red hat prices are a bit steep I think.

Depends what you mean by "supported".

If you want to pay so there's someone on a phone who will help you with any "issues", there are various organisations out there who will do that for popular distributions. I don't have any experience of who is how good.

If you mean you want the long-term security updates and platform stability that you can get by paying for RHEL, then look at Centos or Scientific Linux. Both are built from RHEL Open source. Both are free. For most usages, they are interchangeable. Both, for example, can use all(?) binary packages from Red Hat's EPEL repository (Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux).

Centos claims 100% bug-for-bug compatibility with RHEL.

Scientific Linux (the most misnamed distribution?) is an almost-clone of RHEL and can be used virtually anywhere that RHEL can. It might also be mis-named "CERN LInux". It's supported at CERN and used extensively by CERN. The not quite a clone bit is that if CERN finds a bug or needs a kernel feature that RHEL don't fix or ship, CERN will fix or build it themselves. In practice I have never found anything that works on RHEL that doesn't work on the same-numbered release of Scientific Linux. It also ships with auto-updating turmed on. Centos ships with that off.

There's always a risk that the Centos distribition might go away. There were reports of bust-ups amongst the project leaders around the time of RHEL 6.0, but it's still with us.

I doubt that Scientific Linux could go away any time before CERN goes away. That makes it my choice for a free Enterprise-grade Linux. YMMV.

[John Phamlore]

Why not use plain old Debian?

I just use Debian unstable and basically never have to worry about reinstalling ever again.

[Ian 55]

Horses for courses

The servers use Debian stable - the clue is in the name :)

The desktops have Linux Mint - later versions of the software, flashier.

The netbooks have Xubuntu - smaller footprint.

I also have a couple of USB sticks with Precise Puppy - even smaller footprint, runs in RAM, usable on almost anyone else's PC without disturbing their setup while allowing access to it if I need to fix something.

All ultimately Debian-based, but with different spins.

[jdieter]

missing the point

I guess mint would be fine on the normal pc, but the tablet and phone, same interface everywhere, Ubiquity seems best. <dig os=win8>At least you can figure how to shut down the machine without taking classes. </dig>

[Wardy01]

Re: missing the point

If you cant figure out how to shutdown windows you aint cut out for linux.

Any IT pro claiming that shutting down windows is hard / difficult to find should quit working in IT and just use a computer setup by someone else.

[myubuntublog]

Take another look at Unity

I think that it has become almost a sport to take a swipe and Unity and Gnome. Anyone who uses Unity everyday will now take an oath to say how good it is.

I think Unity bashing stems back to the early release of version 11 when Unity was new. It is now fast and sleek and it is so easy to navigate.

[James Hughes 1]

Re: Take another look at Unity

Agreed. Use it day in day out for work and play. Works fine for me.

[Nigel 11]

Re: Take another look at Unity

I think that it has become almost a sport to take a swipe and Unity and Gnome. Anyone who uses Unity everyday will now take an oath to say how good it is.

I have no idea how true I'd believe that to be about Unity, but it's really bad statistics. You are citing a self-selected sample set. In other words, the folks who hate Unity are almost by definition the folks who don't use it. The only exception will be those who are working for an employer who insists that they use it.

As for Gnome, I slagged off the Gnome 3 folks not for producing a UI that I really disliked, but for packaging it in such a way that I couldn't choose to re-install Gnome 2 on a Gnome 3 distribution. They did a Windows 8 "upgrade" on me, which is not the Linux way. Cinnamon and Mate fixed that in two different ways. Mate is the true Gnome-2 fork, but I found that I preferred Cinnamon over Mate and KDE and XFCE (and all these to Gnome-3). Choice is good, especially if one gets it at log-in time.

in passing I think allowing sample self-selection was Microsoft's big mistake with Windows 8. They didn't realize that the folks who contributed during the pre-release by definition liked it, and the folks who hated it had tried it for an hour or two and then just blew it away. And of course, in the MS world one can't just download and use a different UI or three, and very likely one is told what to use by one's employer.

[Vic]

Re: Take another look at Unity

> Anyone who uses Unity everyday will now take an oath to say how good it is.

I won't.

It might have improved somewhat, but it's still god-awful.

Vic.

[Anonymous Coward]

What I found with Mint 15

Ok, I don't normally like Debian or its derivatives. I am guarranteed to run into issues somewhere, but I want to like Mint. I really do. It tries to make everything simple and that is very much a good thing, but I always run into issues. Here are a list of problems I've had in the hour I've been using Mint 15.

I told it to not format my /home partition during installation. It did anyway.

The installer hung when rebooting (either that, or it really does take more than 15 minutes to reboot)

I installed all the updates, activated the restricted drivers (very nice way of doing this), and extended my display to both monitors (again, I like the way mint handles this). Computer locks up needing a hard reboot. I know that I should have rebooted after updates and/or restricted drivers, but Mint failed to tell me that. A less experienced computer user would run into the exact same issue.

The software installer keeps failing to start.

The installed firefox decided to just stop downloading the 2 files (one 4GB, the other 1GB) I told it to after half an hour. Could very well have nothing to do with Mint though.

The nice things that come with Mint are very much over shadowed by the niggles. I am an experienced linux user, so I am perfectly able to overcome the niggles, but it kind of defeats the point in having an easy to use distro.

[Wardy01]

Re: What I found with Mint 15

And this is my issue with any Linux distro.

I find myself taking hours to do things that take me 10 minutes in windows because of "niggles" stuff like setting up product X isn't always just a matter of pulling from some repo, there's the whole dependency train that results in hell.

Others find that installing Linux is second nature, my experience has always been one of chaos since most distros dont "just work" on my PC despite the fact that im running pretty common hardware "average" I would say.

I tend to keep my hardware fairly recent, Linux IMO seems to prefer running on older slower kit, not much good for a gamer / developer like me as anything within 5 years of the cutting edge provides this continuous headache for seemingly no reason.

It would be something daft like, the GFX card would work in 2D mode but not in 3D.

Or the sound drivers would cause a random crash.

I want to see more windows like driver handling in Linux as "it just works".

[Wild Bill]

Tried Mint on an old P4 machine the other day. Cinnamon kept crashing as soon as I booted. Installed Ubuntu 12 - works like a charm. I'm sure my experience was unusual, but first impressions count.

I have no problem with the Ubuntu interface either. It's just a desktop with a sidebar as far as I can make out. I never actually tried Ubuntu before Unity so really don't see what all the fuss about it is.

[Anonymous Coward]

Confusing??? To whom?

So, Mint also have a distro that's based on Debian rather than Ubuntu. In what strange universe is this 'somewhat confusing'? I used to run both, then (because I'm a self-confessed Ubuntu-hater) switched entirely to the Debian version. I can't say I've noticed any difference in my daily workflow whatsoever. If the writer finds this all 'somewhat confusing', then I can only presume he finds the vast number of Ubuntu derivatives WILDLY confusing...

[plrndl]

NTFS

NTFS is not any kind of standard. It's the current default on Windows.

I have used Linux exclusively on my personal machines for many years, and for some of those I used daily a 500Gb NTFS external HDD. I was never aware of any bug: this is the first time I've heard of it. That's how "critical" this bug is.

(FWIW the last time I installed windows, I needed about 20 CDs of drivers and applications, and 36 reboots. That is one of the main reasons I stopped dual booting.)

[asdf]

the rumble is on

Mint 15 is finally a competitor on my Mac Pro desktop to Mac OS X which are in a death struggle for which I will use as a daily driver (to steal term from Android world). Apple are actually doing everything they can to push me to Linux considering they are actively trying to obsolete my machine and require me to use hacks and 3rd party bootloaders in order to upgrade their yearly OS shake down (which usually aren't much more than service packs). It so sad that Linux will support my machine for a decade after Apple who made the damn thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

upgrading in a safe way

I have two smaller partitions for system files and one larger home (and I do backup of home). That way I can go back to the previous installation if I don't like something in the new version or if I forgot to install some program that I need.

Reinstalling takes 10 min work and about 1 hour for the computer and then its all there including new versions of all programs I use: LibreOffice, VLC (MediaPlayer), Firefox, Thunderbird, Transmission (bit torrent), Eclipse (java IDE), CodeBlocks (C/C++ IDE), VirtualBox (for running Windows in), OpenScad (3d cadding), Gimp, Kicad, Kompare, IDLE (python IDE) and more that I forgot now.

Sometimes there is an issue. Last time Minecraft did not work on new version. So my children boot the older installation until that's fixed. Not a big problem for me.

With Windows it would have taken days before I was back with everything and all others in the family would have a lot of work to get their mail clients etc etc to work again. Last time I reinstaled windows I had to search all over the house for the motherboard driver disk since fresh Widows 7 did not even have networking. Then I had to look for video drivers etc. Then find the programs from all sorts of places.

[Anonymous Coward]

advice before trying mint

Check the hardware support lists if you intend to buy a new laptop to run Linux on. If the drivers have not made it into the linux distributions yet its better to take another brand. The laptop makers often forget to supply linux drivers with their machines.

[Matt Piechota]

Re: advice before trying mint

That's good advice for any laptop and any Linux, really. Although sticking with more "Business" laptops tends to be a lot easier than "consumer" models, generally speaking.

[Anonymous Coward]

Just going to throw this out there, I use Red Hat at work, it's usually pretty decent, but after hearing all this jazz about Mint 15 I decided to give it a go on VirtualBox. I'm not sure what it's like natively but the performance through VirtualBox was awful. I gave it 2gb RAM and full CPU access and it was still freezing up continually every time I tried changing the input keyboard. First impressions - not good.

I know what everyone is gong to say 'wah, wah, how can you write it off so quickly, it was on a VM, etc'. I'll stick with Red Hat for th time being, even though it is less user friendly.

[Carling]

Not a lover of buntu or mint

There are many unknown Linux distribution that put buntu and mint to shame I would never recommend any of them, The latest ones I recommend are Zorin-os , SparkyLinux, Linux Lite, Ultimate Edition, I could go on and list more

[Belardi]

I killed Windows 8 on my wife's notebook... replaced it with LinuxMint. She has no issues with it. She doesn't know how to use Computers much and I'm not familer with Linux, so this is how I also learn how to use it.

Easily, better than Windows8

[shawnfromnh]

Still needs some work

I downloaded it and then did a reboot and went into demo mode. Have a 10 year old Compaq Presario with a via chipset and an AMD XP processor.

I was excited since I had not used linux in years the last time Ubuntu.

I didn't get past the desktop. Mouse pointer moved "usb wireless mouse" but no clicks registered, Keyboard had lights "PS2" but keys did nothing at all, and lastly error message no internet from USB network adapter.

I think stable should be renamed stable but semi functional since when going back to Google for some research there are a lot of people that are having basic functional troubles with the mouse, keyboard, and internet functions.

On the good side the install was absolutely handfree and fast and since the first Linux I used was Mandrake and that install was slow and confusing "I was such a newb then" and it never made it to the desktop at all I will give the install an A but the drivers do need input from the user as in clicking to see if the mouse is active and same for keyboard because without either you cannot even fix or add drivers or change settings to let existing drivers work.

I was really hoping this was going to work since I really don't want to be stuck using Windows 8 5 years from now and need to become more familiar with Linux now while I still have a windows OS to fall back on when I have a bad install so I can go online to get drivers.

I think more focus on input devices during beta testing so there is a 90% chance all will do basic function would be a decent goal, at least the mouse especially since with that a virtual keyboard can be used to download the proper drivers or at least make it so when I have the drivers I have the ability to add them from a cd/dvd/usb.

[Camilla Smythe]

Trust Me.. Linux := Wank

I do not separate the Kernel from the OS.

Every Distro I have had to endure goes...

"Ooh I pooed my diapers. Please go to a forum to discover which flavour of shit has been flung in your general direction."

Nice one from Mint today is the 'upgrade' to Firefox 22. Does not connect to HTTP sites. HTTPS works but otherwise it is fucked.

I'm on my 14th attempt at installing Debian. Apparently this is the rock solid stable shit... no questions asked,

"Ooh I pooed my diapers. Please go to a forum to fail to discover which flavour of shit has been flung in your general direction."

Trust Me.. Linux := Wank

How do I know...?

I have posted this message, FF 11, ergo it does work. Otherwise it is a basic crapshoot and six of the chambers in the pistol you are using are loaded with fail bullets.

Torvald needs taking outside and shooting.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trust Me.. Linux := Wank

This is being written with FF22 on Mint15. As you can see, it works here.

I have no idea why you have a problem, but to be honest with your attitude, I don't care.

Now, back to my job at Microsoft Support, where I get to do that all day...

[Wardy01]

Re: Trust Me.. Linux := Wank

I'm glad i'm not the only one out there with this type of problem.

Everyone seems to praise linux as being "the backbone of the world" but in reality ... you need to be a friggin linux dev in order to install the dam thing without problems.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Trust Me.. Linux := Wank

@Wardy01

"I'm glad i'm not the only one out there with this type of problem.

Everyone seems to praise linux as being "the backbone of the world" but in reality ... you need to be a friggin linux dev in order to install the dam thing without problems."

Or competent. That works too.

Yes linux has some driver issues when the manufacturers build drivers for windows but not for linux (or they release poor drivers for linux). But as I have various hardware that wont work with windows too I see it as the fault of the driver writers and not blame the OS.

I have had a few problems on linux and I have had problems with windows. I still use windows (my gaming system) and linux mint (development) on a duel boot machine. I also exclusively run linux mint on a laptop that cannot handle windows (cheap hardware) and on my work machine because I prefer it.

And in no way am I a linux dev. My partner is not techie yet she can install and use mint on her laptop (for work). She definitely isnt a dev of any sort.

Linux is just another OS. They all have their use and their purpose. Just because you struggle to install and use it doesnt mean it is broken. I guess when you get your windows to just work (You said- "I want to see more windows like driver handling in Linux as "it just works".") I assume it comes pre-installed? And if you do it yourself I assume you have to carefully keep all your driver disks because windows wont detect them automatically (unless its really old hardware) nor will it tell you what it is?

I can understand if you have problems with it that you may not use it. But to claim its for linux devs says more about your ability to put in a disk and follow instructions than it does the OS.

[Camilla Smythe]

I am on my 15th attempt at installing Debian

"Ooh I pooed my diapers. Please go to a forum to fail to discover which flavour of shit has been flung in your general direction."

BTW that's 2 hours plus out of my LifeLine.

Fuck me sideways. Like UfuckU and Fuck, excuse me whilst I misspell Mint, are based on Debian. How does that one not work then?

I trust this will not work... as he goes into terminal mode

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

GH.

Linux := Shite

I assure you that this much is true.

[Not That Andrew]

Re: I am on my 15th attempt at installing Debian

If you are having problems with installing Debian derived distro's, I suggest trying something else - OpenSuse, Fedora, PCLinuxOS, Arch or even Slackware. Linux is not shit, although the installers can be sometimes

[Mayor Boris]

Re: I am on my 15th attempt at installing Debian

You mean the people instlling it?

[Camilla Smythe]

Re: I am on my 15th attempt at installing Debian

Yup.., in part, been there, done that.

Suse: Pooed its Diapers.

Fedora: Pooed its Diapers.

My first exposure was Slackware.... ???? I am in avoid mode.

"Linux is not shit, although the installers can be sometimes."

I have reason to doubt the first part given the second part regularly fucks itself.

Perhaps Torvalds can shout at the bastards and get them to sort it out?

[Camilla Smythe]

It's crap. Nothing Works

So I dibble about in Mint to bring Debian Up...

No..... Seriously but fuck me folks you have to use other Linux based Shite to get Linux based Shite to talk to you.

Debian 7 Review

Fucking piece of Dysfunctional Shite.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: It's crap. Nothing Works

We're all sorry you're too incompetent to install any of the easy Linux distros, but given other people genuinely do use this stuff, perhaps the issue isn't that the distros are all completely broken?

Perhaps it is, y'know... errr ... you ...?

Anybody who says an o/s "poo-ed it's diapers" ... well ...