MYSTERY Nokia image-mangling mobe spotted in public More images of Nokia's so-called EOS Windows smartphone have popped out on the web, and this time they show what looks like a final industrial design with a PureView-like camera. Last year Nokia released a device with an unfeasibly large (for a phone) sensor that downsamples images, and is capable of knocking out outstanding …
Cue postings about it being too big etc.
If it was possible to do such things smaller it would be done. Do you think pro photographers like carrying heavy cameras with huge lenses around? of course not, but they know that you need large sensors and lenses to get good results.
While this won't rival an SLR it will give you the best photo results on a smartphone.
Exactly, there is underlying physics involved. As sensor size changes you are trading off and balancing factors such as pixel pitch \ gain \ dof at a given ap \ fov at a given focal length \ diffraction (coc) etc. A lot also depends on where money has been put in each system. Digital large format is virtually solely scanning backs used for landscapes, cameras are huge, lenses are actually pretty light considering the image circle involved. Medium format means you have lighter cameras, moderate lenses, you start getting af and even IS now. They also tend to be ccd rather than cmos so you find yourself overshooting, dealing with 1fps max normaly but true 16bit. 35mm tends to be cmos so you get liveview, higher isos faster frame rates (although sensor size is part of that) etc. Inpart due to the physics of the medium but also because thats what manufacturers built. You could have an 8x10 digital slr with IS AF lenses but it would be huge and insanely expensive and smaller fov lenses with wide aps would be monumentally HOOOge.
Camera sensors win on convienience, theyre starting to get IS and even optical zoom. Diffraction will play a part with clarity and forget thin dof, but I won't complain about them improving :-) Horses for courses, but don't believe the whole 'takes dslr quality shots' marketing balls. I'd happily switch away from insanely expensive and heavy gear if they did.
I'm no pro, but I do have a D70 which I got nearly 10 years ago now which I used (alongside several books) to teach myself the skills. Without doubt, the computing power in a modern phone is substantially better than the D70. Asides from the quality of the optical zoom (which you have limits of physics and substantial costs), modern point and shoot cameras and camera phones can take excellent photos. My big personal problem with them is that it is infeasibly slow to use any manual mode due to the fact you have got to go through menus for a few minutes to setup your shots.
If there was a way of getting a few more rocker switches so that you could quickly change the aperture (maybe limited possibility due to physics), shutter speed or dial in some EV compensation, it would definitely be an option for more than a look-at -me facebook post.
That and a proper flash would go a lot further to creating good photos than a gaizeeelion terapixel sensors. A physically large sensor with downsampling will go a long way towards ensuring that each recorded pixel is as close as possible to what comes through the lens. The real challenge is to ensure what comes through the lens is what you want.
But surely that still allows it to be too big?
You cannot fit an SLR into a smartphone. So you're going to have to accept lesser image quality. In that case why is something bulbous preferable? A lot of people would argue that it just falls between two stools — it's not compact enough to fit well with a mobile phone and it's not large enough to do all that much better than what does fit in other mobile phones. So it's too large for anything people want in a phone.
It's the same sort of logic that allows people to conclude that e.g. a 6" screen is too large for a mobile phone.
The image spots a Zeiss lens, thereby Canon looks not involved at all, don't think it could be the sensor maker. Maybe "EOS" is just the project internal name, I guess it would be difficult to sell a Nokia EOS without Canon approval, especially spelled full capital (Eos is a greek word meaning "dawn") and referring to photo capabilities - AFAIK Eos is used by VW also, but it's difficult to mistake a camera for a car :)
Talking of Canon what's all this "multiple megapixels downsampled to smaller view for the user taking a lot of CPU junk?" Sure, if you're doing fancy image scaling but a 38Mpixel photo isn't as much data as you think. And just about every Canon EOS "D" camera has to do the job to display a thumbnail (and, incidentally, save the original CR2 which contains several RGB JPG previews of different sizes, the original CCD scan data - which isn't RGB because of the sensor layout, there's more "G", and requires a lot of processing, statistical averaging and white-balancing to get a viewable image that a user would want - and everything else it bundles into the file, and it takes nothing to write that data to the card and present it on the screen after a photo is taken.
Quite what are you doing to the image where THROWING AWAY data and some complex transform on the data needs anything more than a tiny processor doing some parallel operations? And if it takes a second rather than half-a-second, is anyone REALLY going to notice on a phone?
fwiw I think canons use ti designed arm chips running dryos. They will have a significant amount of custom functionality, but basically not a million miles away from whats in a phone. Some canons have multiple digic processors (i think my 7d has 2 and my 1dx has 3? ). One big factor that will affect the grunt required would be the bit depth, they're probably 8bit. It's also unlikely the phone will be doing much else at the time. That and the burst depth is rarely high on a phone so it is unlikely to have a queue of images to chew on like a dslr. Plus it depends exactly how they are reducing the resolution, it could be done right after the adc stage by an asic prior to the phones cpu even getting the image. Are there any specifics on how the pureview did it?
I suspect that at least 70% of smartphone users don't care about the OS. Certainly of the handful of non-techies that I've advised on phones/tablets in the last 6 months only 1 was wedded to his iPhone, and not willing to change. The rest only cared about what it did, and would shift to whatever platform had the price or features they were after. There's still a good number of people who haven't heard of Android, even though they're using it on their phone. "Oh, I've got a Samsung Galaxy"...
I've just pushed a friend off iPhone onto Android (which I'm nervous about given how non-technical he is). But the Galaxy Note 2 has the stylus that will be brilliant for him. He's loved his iPhones for the last 4 years, but switching doesn't worry him in the slightest.
The only thing that stopped me buying an 808 was Symbian and that stupid low res screen. Don't get me wrong, I had a 5800 which served me well for a long time, but it really doesn't cut it as a modern OS. I might be the only person who likes windows phone, but after owning 2 different variants on android and a WinPho device at the same time, the windows one was the one I found myself using most. That with a good camera fits my usage requirements pretty much perfectly.
"A hybrid microkernel based design would be a good start..."
Real world advantage of is?
Modern doesn't always mean good.
My view of the mobile space is it's got obsessed with cramming heavy layered, resorce hungry, desktop derived OS into mobile devices and relying on manufacturers to beef up component performance enough to cope.
While Symbian had on top of it a weak UI until the latter days, it was designed entirely to provide an efficient and resource light OS for mobile devices. They were finally getting on the right track when Elop decided a bloated and inflexible OS was more suitable.
My biggest problem with it is the UI (which I suppose you could argue is an "App" issue rather than an OS issue as such... ) The bones of symbian, the call quality, the battery life, the memory management - those are all very good but it has always felt like the S60 UI was a bit of an afterthought. Something knocked together from leftovers of S40 rather than something properly designed for touch control. It's come a way, since then, but there's still a sense that they didn't really try as hard as they should have and it's a lot less good than the competition. I don't know if that 640x360 resolution was a technical limitation or just a way they could cut the development budget by reusing stuff from the C6 but for something at that price point it really wasn't good enough.
Perhaps symbian could still be a serious player if it'd not been killed off the way it was - after all, the first couple of versions of android were bloody terrible, but that's gotten really nice now. What I want from a "modern" phone OS is something that handles all the "phone" stuff as quickly and easily as possible. iOS isn't bad, I think the current iterations of android are better, and as it happens I like WinPho better still... but I don't think any of the three are _bad_ as such these days.
It's a tough question to answer outright, except by example. I'd argue that winpho is a "modern" os, that android is, that iOS is aging a bit, but is still OK. Hell, I liked WebOS, thought there was a lot of potential in that, but the poor thing never really had much of a chance.
In an ideal world I'd take Winpho's ease of use, with Android's customizability, iOS's stability and Symbian's efficiency... doubt I'll get it tho.
Not sure if you were aware of this (with you saying you used the 5800), but note that the 808's OS, particularly the UI, is much improved over what the 5800 had (as you say, imagine judging Android or IOS today by their first versions).
Although yes, I can understand not wanting to buy the last of its kind for a platform.
I don't know the reasons for the 640x360 resolution (which was interestingly way ahead of the competition in 2008-2009, though sadly lacking now) - I can see it being a case of not worth the risk of changing it for one last device.
What the hell is wrong with Belle's UI? It's nicer than android (quite similar though)
The problem with Symbian is a lack of smoothness in certain situations, The difference between S60 and Belle was at least 75% of the way to getting it right. If it hadn't been canned, it would have got there, and pretty soon, I think.
" I don't know if that 640x360 resolution was a technical limitation or just a way they could cut the development budget by reusing stuff from the C6 but for something at that price point it really wasn't good enough."
FACTS:
Nokia E90 Communicator (which is in front of me, operating right now with my main SIM)
http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_e90-1857.php
Announced 2007, February. Released 2007, June
main screen: 800 x 352 pixels (secondary: 240 x 320 pixels)
Symbian OS v9.2, S60 rel. 3.1
I use my phone for 6 things (in order or priority): music player, email (gmail), web browsing, facebook, camera and being a phone.
All of those capabilities are cross platform - my "app" usage is largely via my tablet so I'm not that bothered about keeping them on the phone. Also, the people I know who have a WP handset (its on our work choice list) seem perfectly happy with it.
Therefore, in terms of being a distinguishing feature between handsets, the camera performance is pretty key for me at least, about the only other feature I'd care about would be water proofing but I've gone 10+ years without dropping my phone in a pint so thats a nice to have.
Anyway - for me this could be significant, especially if some of the minor gripes people seem to have with WP8 get fixed in 8.1 (e.g. independant volume control)
The lack of options on the volume control is a bit crap. Also there doesn't seem to be a way to save a half-composed text message - which given the number of times I'm interrupted doing this is even more annoying.
Other than that, I think the other major downside is apps related. Firstly the major lack of them, and secondly the limited way you can display them. Even iOS (which just gives you an indistinguishable grid of icons lets you organise them into different screens or into folders. Neither of which can be done with WinPho, it's the single home-screen or the alphabetical list of apps only - although at least you can change icon size. Both have the fault of forcing you to dive into the settings menu to turn on Bluetooth, change brightness etc. - where Android is brilliantly customisable.
I can't vouch for the music player. At least you're no longer stuck with Microsoft's truly horrible Zune PC software. Which actually makes iTunes, and even Sony's efforts, look good. Email and web browsing are fine and Facebook could be superb. You can either use an app, web interface or use the built-in client that puts Facebook right into your contacts. Which kind of takes over the phone, but if you're happy with that you'll love it.
Squander Two,
Yes, I had one of those on my last WinPho handset. Which was very useful. But the one I really wanted was a brightness control. So you can crank brightness to the max when you're outside in the sun, and can't read the screen. So it can't be buried illegibly half a page down the settings menu. iOS doesn't allow this either, and the easy-access to the brightness control is only on the iPad, not the iPhone (where it's most needed).
It was also a shame that there were only these WiFi/Bluetooth/Aeroplane Mode apps, and nothing else. I'd have liked to have shortcuts to a few options as a possibility.
I think. "Nokia had far more control over its hardware then than it does now." speaks for itself.
Not really. Obviously it's a Microsoft OS, instead of Symbian - although that was Nokia's choice. But what MS are specifying is the chips they certify. Because of this, Nokia can't use the OS and the CPU or GPU to process the camera images. So that presumably forces them to have a custom GPU in the camera itself, which does all the work, and then they just write a camera driver for Windows Phone as normal.
Symbian was a separate entity to Nokia, not under its control (at least theoretically) for a while. Then it was again, then it wasn't... I lost track. It'll be interesting to see how much Nokia can influence MS in their future Windows Phone decisions. It's an interesting question as to who's management and bureaucracy has been worst in the last 5 years, out of those two companies...
Exactly! WP8 will allow for some level customization from an OEM (software/app based primarily) but MSFT will make sure there's adequate hardware guidelines to maintain device performance - so hopefully meaning it'll sidestep the Android issue of low-powered cheap devices that run abysmally.
I think it was with the Samsung Focus lineup that Samsung decided part way through production to change the processor from what Microsoft said they should use to one of their own undeclared choosing, which led to people having bricked/broken devices when an OS update was rolled out and Samsung's underhandness caused a lot of bad feeling towards the OS because of the hardware/software incompatability. It makes sense to have preferred processors for the OS to run on rather than living in the highly fragmented Android world where you have a smorgasboard of chip architectures that ened to have support maintained to handle the Android updates - I'm guessing this has a big factor to play in people running old Androids that never have a hope in hell of having an approved update pushed out to old devices.
Well, I guess "Nokia's choice" does apply here since Elope has already been nested firmly in Nokia by then. And speaking of processing images, don't get your hopes high, the overrated camera of 920 could take nice pictures, but what the software does to them should be punishable by cutting fingers off. And I seriously doubt Nokia can influence any of this as they seem to have become a pawn of Microsoft and its rat who became the leader investors are not exactly fond of. As for the custom GPU, that is no doubt result of Microsoft's partnership with some OEM.
I'm still waiting for how Jolla turns out as they seem to do what Nokia may have intended to do until they were assimilated by Microsoft...
Bit of a hater? lol
You know that imaging on the Lumia 920 is greatly improved with the latest update that's coming (Lumia Amber)? And you do know that from it's original release it's had updates that have greatly improved it's capability? You sound like one of these bleaters who keep repeated the same tired lines that were only appropriate at the device launch, and not to images taken with the latest software/OS updates installed.
@arob
Oh yes, I've hated MS dearly since they started ruining things I liked. I know things have improved, but that doesn't change the fact, that the OS is crap. Not utter crap anymore, but still crap. I have 920, it's up to date and the images are still about the same quality as N95. It may or may not get better (among with ton of other shortcomings of the OS, my list of them is growing), but like hell I'm going to comfort myself with that thought. I'm interested in what the OS is now, not in what MS keeps promising and lying about.
@I ain't Spartacus
Heh, I'm not saying that the management of Nokia is without blame on this, but what an amazing coincidence would it be that they hire a recently ex-Microsofted person and suddenly change their direction towards Microsoft? We'll probably never know the truth though, I'm just saying what seems most logical to me.
Again, I have 920, the shots could be loads better. In fact, I had two cases when it was better to take a screenshot of the camera application instead of taking the actual photo (one of the cases was 4 days ago). I admit I have no idea who makes what, but I do know that all Symbian phones take better photos than I expected them to. Everything (except the pretty shiny things) about WP8 feels so ... unfinished.
Aoyagi Aichou,
Nokia's choice definitely does apply. Crap management leads to crap performance. I don't know if Elop has got his decision right, or whether they could have turned round Symbian, or Meego/Maemo, or would have been better with Android. What I do know is that Nokia's management culture had been in the shit for years, and that's the culture that selected Elop. And approved his decision to release the 'burning platforms' email, and to change strategy. It's no good them blaming him, they hired him, they approved his decision.
My personal suspicion is that he didn't come in as a poison pill from MS, but was brought in to do a deal with MS, because none of the competing factions inside Nokia could agree on an internal solution. Or believed that none was available - as they never seemed to be able to finish anything. But that's only guesswork on my part.
the overrated camera of 920 could take nice pictures, but what the software does to them should be punishable by cutting fingers off. And I seriously doubt Nokia can influence any of this as they seem to have become a pawn of Microsoft and its rat who became the leader investors are not exactly fond of. As for the custom GPU, that is no doubt result of Microsoft's partnership with some OEM.
That's all a bit silly really. The camera on the 920 seems to have got very nice reviews and the test shots I've seen have been pretty good. That's not over-rated. If there were software problems, they've apparently been dealt with. But whatever, that's not Microsoft's fault, it's Nokia's. Nokia produce the drivers for their hardware, so any problems are down to them.
Similarly with the GPU on the Pureview camera, that's nothing to do with Microsoft, and them having parter OEMs. Nokia bought in the camera, they'll select the internal GPU for the camera, and they'll write both the camera software, and the driver that links it up to the OS. With their Symbian version they can use the phone's GPU, and that's a downside of using Windows, because MS would have to re-write the OS to allow this. So they'll have to have an extra chip.
Take a good look at the TI Omap 2 CPU+GPU that was used in the Nokia 808
Without the dedicated DSP in the sensor module this would have not happened
Now that Windows is bringing support for the SnapDragon 800 (55Mpix max) in GDPR 3 beforore Xmas
there is no need to worry wheather you need drivers or not - I'd prefer using both DSP & SD 800
Yes!
MS WPhone software development is way too slow and it's holding Nokia back
My trusty N8 is really starting to creak, coupled with Google discontinuing support for Exchange active sync and the disappointing Lumia 925 release I've gone for a HTC one.
I like the aluminium body, I like that they've tried something different with the ultrapixel camera and the Zoe feature looks like fun....
Still I'll be watching what happens here and may well be selling the HTC if this new Lumia arrives with a dedicated camera button, FM Transmitter, HDMI Out, Expandable memory and USB OTG and isn't locked to EE, I won't be holding my breath.
That's fine, but if I need to share\sync a calendar with my wife who is on Android it starts to get messy. My main issue was that my current N8 is for the first time no able to do everything I need it to so can't wait another 2? 3? 4? months for a device that could end up being a huge disappointment.
I agree, google should work with any smart phone but I've also heard that they need to pay Microsoft for an EAS licence for each account synced so can't blame them for a business decision, if MS supported the open CardDav protocol we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
Yes, it was used, but have you seen, I mean, actually witnessed with your own eyes the stabilised output from video on a Lumia 920?? try running through a childs soft play centre, chasing a 4yearold (mine!) with even a mid range real camcorder, I can pretty much guarantee the end result - whilst probably sharper, will be a lot more bouncy! and not in a good way...
I could use a different metric... speed boat & small chop....
Come on people - think about it....It's Roman numerals, can't actually be 20 as that's old hat....
Think of a big number with some relationship to XX, and assume that's the number of pixels. Then act all surprised, then dis it as stupid, then eat your words when it gets released. That's what happened with their previous proper Pureview device....
Take the lens on my Nexus 4, it's maybe 1.5mm wide and takes 'okay' shots.
So why not install a 3mm wide lens?
The lens on even my cheapest compact is about 12mm. So I guess I'm saying is how does lens width/size correlate to the quality of images taken?
Would a 3mm wide lens be too big?
> So why not install a 3mm wide lens?
>
> The lens on even my cheapest compact is about 12mm. So I guess I'm saying is how does lens width/size correlate to the quality of images taken?
>
>Would a 3mm wide lens be too big?
The f stop is the ratio of focal length to aperture size. If you double the width of the lens without changing the focal length then you decrease the f stop (eg from f4 to f2). This lets in more light but decreases the DOF (depth of field). This would make the camera have such a narrow DOF that it would give most of the image a fuzzy out-of-focus look.
Increasing the focal length to compensate would create a large bulge or require a folding lens.
I have a Galaxy Nexus, but after playing with a Lumia I can only say that Android needs some serious work on speed and a total facelift especially as it's pretty certain iOS is going to bring out a major facelift too, which I suspect will have quite a lot of things borrowed from Windows phone.
Why should the OS matter?
Surely it is more important if the device does what you want it to do and do it well.
I certainly would choose the device based on the functionality rather than OS. Yes, functionality can include ability to run certain apps, so if they are not available on all platforms then that may limit your OS choices.
Lovely, really looking forward to seeing the tech resurface; I had started to worry that Nokia had forgotten about it! Love my 808, use it up in favour of other phones if I'm out and about for impromptu photography. While the iPhone is good, the speed and control over the optics in the 808 is really noticeable.
Good stuff!
I hope they didn’t use the same type of camera phone to take that picture of the new camera phone, because there is quite a bit of ‘noise’ there… but if it’s as good as the N8 was back in its day then this is definitely for me, the N8 stopped me needing to carry a digital camera, because you can’t always have an SLR with you.
Nokia's internal politics always played different teams against each other. So imagine cutting each team loose with a chunk of money (they gave nice severance packages to the ex employees by the sound of it) then Nokia aren't paying for the OS R&D, possibly hardware in places too. Give all these a single entity to hate/motivate them (Elop) then buy back what works afterwards as a 'Plan B' without the R&D overheads?
Also, Symbian as a dead OS still getting updates makes it an almost current option? Though would need adapting to current hardware.
Nice ideas but highly unlikely.
While i don't doubt the technical merits of the pureview camera i think its appeal is limited to those who want to take more professional type photos without having to lug around an SLR camera and average joe public would be put off by the bulk of the phone, the camera on my phone is only basic but is 'good enough' for holiday/nights out snapshots, photos for ebay items, short video clips etc so much so that it been over a year since i last used by standalone camera. but you never know the galaxy note and other phones have encouraged people to walk around with what looks like a tablet to their ear so maybe Nokia can convince people to buy it.
According to Nokia and Microsoft, who provided some faked footage to prove it.
However in the real world, we all know this Pureview branding is totally bogus and the low light performance is no better than a Sony Xperia cameraphone from 2011 with their version of the tech (called Exmor R).
Microsoft was usual trying to hype their their sub-par products out of a hole.
Dunno about the downvotes. I have video of bats taken with this old Arc S. Not the fastest phone in the world, but that is one nice phone camera.
Now, what time to bats like come out to play (and occasionally use you as an obstacle course)?
Quite good low light performance, I would say.
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