back to article On the hunt for a new ampere

While there's been lots of attention paid to the search for a new kilogram, another of the SI system's fundamental units of measurement is under examination: the ampere. Along with the kilogram, metre, second, Kelvin, mole and candela, the ampere is one of the fundamental yardsticks used to measure the world around us. And, …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. Steve Knox
    Boffin

    SEP?

    Sounds like Somebody Else's Problem*.

    * Also thanks to Douglas Adams

  2. Martin Budden Silver badge
    WTF?

    Watt the ... ?

  3. Martin Budden Silver badge
    Joke

    Two cats on a bicycle.

    When we've finally got the new kilogram and new ampere sorted out we can all be happy at last.

  4. Unicornpiss
    Pint

    Ugh...

    We already have standard and metric tonnes, imperial, dry, and liquid pints and gallons, liters (or litres), miles and KPH to contend with. Will we have 20 metric-amp circuit breakers in our homes soon? I'm going to get a few pints of beer of some sort now... whichever measurement is more volume...

    Can the reg come up with its own unit of measurement for electric current? Such as how many badgers you have to rub against a glass rod to produce enough current to light a 100W lamp?

    1. Martin Budden Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Ugh...

      African or European badger?

      1. Neoc

        Re: Ugh...

        Martin, don't badger him.

        ObQuote: "Badgers? We don't need no steekin' badgers!"

      2. Number6

        Re: Ugh...

        Mushroom

      3. Euripides Pants

        Re: African or European badger?

        Either way, its a shitload of badgers

    2. Martin Budden Silver badge

      Re: Ugh...

      Spherical badgers, obviously.

  5. jake Silver badge

    Try to remember, kiddies ...

    I could see the individual transistors, with my naked eye, on the first IC that I owned.

    And that's just hardware.

    Think about it.

    1. Eddy Ito
      Coat

      Re: Try to remember, kiddies ...

      So what you're saying is that now they are I(don't)C transistors?

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Try to remember, kiddies ...

        No, Eddy, what I am saying is that we continue to learn about how the universe works, at a higher & higher resolution.

        This is a good thing.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Try to remember, kiddies ...

          "No, Eddy, what I am saying is that we continue to learn about how the universe works, at a higher & higher resolution."

          Really? Looked more like "I'll be a supercilious twat because I was getting into electronics/IT years before all of you (honest.)"

          "This is a good thing."

          No, it isn't.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Try to remember, kiddies ...

      Well, we all know what makes you go blind!

      1. Annihilator
        Pint

        Re: Try to remember, kiddies ...

        "Well, we all know what makes you go blind!"

        Only if you get it in your eye

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just define the number of electrons in a coulomb, stupids!

    Couldn't they could just define an exact number of electrons in a coulomb? And keep the ampere as a coulomb of charge per second? Seems pretty simples to me.

    1. Muscleguy
      Thumb Down

      Re: Just define the number of electrons in a coulomb, stupids!

      Presumably you missed the bit where the value differs depending on how you measure it? Since that is a problem there therefore must be no good or valid way to determine which value to choose. Not to mention if it is wrong then other calculations using much more tightly defined units will have the accuracy of the result degraded by the Coulomb.

      Which is why they are trying to do it properly instead.

    2. hplasm
      Happy

      Re: Just define the number of electrons in a coulomb, stupids!

      1 Ampere = 1 Hogshead of electrons.

      Job done!

  7. C 7

    What's all this rubbish?

    What is it with trying to re-define the kilogram? Every sane person knows it's 2.2 pounds, so what's all the fuss about? If the damned frogs would just get with the program already and quit fussing around, we could get some serious work done, but no, it's all "kilo this" and "meter that." I mean, who the hell decided we needed a smaller unit of measure, which would be approximately 0.3937 inches? How the hell are reasonable people supposed to remember this drivel? Now we have wings that don't fit the airplanes they were built for, and spacecraft that miss their targets, all because some frogs can't figure out how to convert their dark-ages base-10 system into Real Units. Give me an inch and I'll take a mile, but leave the damn meters out of it unless we're talking cab fare.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What's all this rubbish?

      The French invented the kilometre to make French cars sound faster. The rest is all an attempt to make it look legitimate.

      1. Naughtyhorse

        Re: What's all this rubbish?

        'The French invented the kilometre to make French cars sound faster'

        True,

        but that was the second attempt... the first involved a playing card and a clothes peg

        1. Omgwtfbbqtime
          Trollface

          Re: What's all this rubbish?

          ... but that failed as it required the cars to move in the first place.

    2. sam bo
      Thumb Up

      Re: What's all this rubbish?

      " I mean, who the hell decided we needed a smaller unit of measure, which would be approximately 0.3937 inches? "

      Yep. Why would anyone want to measure anything to an accuracy greater then a furlong, perch , rod, bushel, chain, acre ? I mean come on now, why would you ? What good would it be ? What could you use it for ?

      It was good enough for Grandad. Irony, isn't that a measure of how much iron is in a comment ?

      1. cyborg
        Joke

        Re: What's all this rubbish?

        The measure of irony in a comment is of course measured in Morisettes.

    3. Piro Silver badge

      Re: What's all this rubbish?

      Heaven forbid we try to make logical set of units that can be easily calculated in the head, and at the same time try to (other than the kilogram) define them exactly using universal constants.

      That sounds terrible! Why don't we stick with a useless old mess?

      That said, you can still use old units in informal settings, it's not like (as the Daily Mail would have you believe) someone from Brussels breaks down your door and takes you away for describing your DIY handwork in inches.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They need to create a framework

    I suggest 20mtrs of 3"x2" fixed with 1kg of 6" nails

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: They need to create a framework

      Petrol sold in litres, road signs in miles. The uk never really 'got' the metric system. (These days I wonder what they're talking about when top gear insists on using horsepower, gallons, yards etc. The imperial system is so much an exercise in memory that few people bother memorizing any of it. How many yards in a mile? oh and Irish miles are different than english ones aren't they? Who knows how powerful a horse is anyway? Equestrians? What sort of horse? etc. but top gear and their fans love to hate anything French almost as much as I love to hate Clarkson)

      P.s I am British and was taught metric from the beginning. actually school kids have been taught metric for 40 years, so there is understandable dissonance when the so called 'grown ups' continue to use the jumble of anti-mnemonic base 16 base 12 base whatever except 10 system.

      1. cortland
        Headmaster

        Re: They need to create a framework

        "Mile" is (arguably) a decimal based unit; it's 1,000 Legionary (Roman) paces, thus the Latin "miles".

        Errant pedantry, up with which we need not foot.

      2. TeeCee Gold badge
        Facepalm

        Re: They need to create a framework

        ....Who knows how powerful a horse is anyway? Equestrians? What sort of horse? etc. but top gear and their fans love to hate anything French.....

        Yes of course. Top Gear should use the continental system, in which a car's output is measured in "PS". This stands for "pferdestärke", which is german for, er, "horsepower".....

    2. Naughtyhorse

      Re: They need to create a framework

      ho ho ho

      I know you jest, have you tried to buy a new tyre for your car lately?

      eg

      205/55/R16 91V

      205mm _and_ 16 inches in the same fucking measurement. what genius came up with that?

      1. David Given

        Re: They need to create a framework

        Cloth is traditionally measured in yards in one direction and metres in the other --- because the looms that actually make the stuff were built premetricisation and are a yard across.

      2. Stratman

        Re: They need to create a framework

        Or the N-gauge model railway scale

        Two and one sixteenth millimetres to the foot.

  9. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Thumb Up

    The problem is how many electrons in an Ampere.

    It's a lot.

    The current devices (no pun intended) would take 1 x 10^13 secs to count that many electrons, the new hotness could knock that down by a factor of 10 000, which would still mean it takes about a year to run (roughly pi giga seconds in a year).

    Thumbs up for upping the frequency of these little critters by a factor of 10 000.

    Which in most other industries would be considered quite impressive.

    1. FartingHippo
      Boffin

      Re: The problem is how many electrons in an Ampere.

      "roughly pi giga seconds in a year"

      Tsk. No. About 10 x pi megaseconds, unless your definition of roughly is very different to mine. Back to school, young man.

    2. Christian Berger

      Re: The problem is how many electrons in an Ampere.

      Well it's electrons per second. So the speed you can count at limits the highest current you can measure. Additionally it's a bit hard to "scale" currents so it's hard to divide a current by a well defined factor.

      Of course all of that is just theologic by definition since Metrology is just about the belief of something called "Reality" which can be explored by "measurements".

    3. cortland

      Re: The problem is how many electrons in an Ampere.

      There goes the cheap multimeter.

      And small; where's my crane?

  10. Muscleguy
    Paris Hilton

    First define your pinhead

    All you need to do is define your pinhead, then the number of angels that can dance on it can better be thought about.

    Though in fairness this new method has done that, with their quantum dot. A unitary pinhead.

    Paris because she is an angelic pinhead.

  11. Katie Saucey
    Joke

    I love the smell of good science on a Monday morning..

    ...it smells like..smells like ozone.

  12. Haku

    So does this mean my two multimeters that can measure down to 0.00000001A are wrong?

    The manufacturer better have a decent calibration service then...

    1. Cliff

      Re: So does this mean my two multimeters that can measure down to 0.00000001A are wrong?

      Yes, in the same way that the distances on road signs are wrong.

      1. Number6

        Re: So does this mean my two multimeters that can measure down to 0.00000001A are wrong?

        The distance on a road sign is an exact measurement to somewhere, just that it might not be to where you thought it was.

  13. Schultz
    Facepalm

    Nice concept...

    but I can't wait to see the little surprises when they try to compare those amp-meters devices in different labs. It's some decades now that they try to redefine the kg based on a well-define number of atoms and what sounded like a simple concept some decade ago became horribly complex and still doesn't work. Let's hope this one is different.

  14. PassiveSmoking
    Coat

    Yardstick?

    Yards have been deprecated. Don't you mean metre stick?

  15. Great Bu
    Coat

    What happens to the old one ?

    When we get the new 'Ampere' defined, what happens to the old one ?

    Does it get a nice retrement home ?

    Do we then refer to it as 'GrAmpere' ?

    Mine's the one with a pocket full of dead and alive cats.....

    1. Naughtyhorse

      Re: What happens to the old one ?

      new kbd pls

  16. Andrew Jones 2
    Thumb Down

    All I can say is GTF! Clearly the way we do things now is so terrible that buildings fall down because the measurements they use to build them are not accurate enough, and millions of electronic devices are blowing up left right and centre because the components used to build them are not rated tightly enough.....

    What a joke - how much exactly are these new new (since we already have new) units of measurement a) costing to standardise and b) costing to integrate?

    The speed and distance signs in the UK are what they are because it would simply cost far too much to change them...

    I shall assume this is EU sticking it's fat wrinkly nose in again to further make life difficult for this country - because they come up with such fantastic ideas that make no sense (like the Cookie Law) which no-one else in EU bothers to implement - just the UK - at great expense.... (like the battery hens law)

    1. Ru

      I shall assume this is EU sticking it's fat wrinkly nose in again

      The Daily Mail is thattaway...

  17. Quixote
    Meh

    Footnote to the footnote

    The footnote gives the modern definition of the ampere in terms of its magnetic effect. When I was a lad, the ampere was defined in terms of its electroplating effect; viz: That quantity of current which is capable of depositing 62.10 grains of silver per hour from a silver nitrate solution.

  18. Anonymous IV

    @Andrew Jones 2

    "The speed and distance signs in the UK are what they are because it would simply cost far too much to change them..."

    Well, they did it in Eire!

    "Distance signs had displayed kilometres since the 1990s but road speed limits were in miles per hour until January 2005, when they were finally changed to kilometres per hour. "

    I suppose your logic would argue that changing the road signs was the direct cause of the financial crisis in Eire?

    1. John 62

      Size difference

      There are several things going on here.

      i) the Irish government has generally been pretty good at running a balanced budget (the recent austerity measures being due to taking on massive debt all at once to pay for nationalising banks and guaranteeing deposits) so paying for a few new road signs wouldn't be a big deal

      ii) Ireland is pretty small compared to the UK

      iii) it could have been a move to differentiate RoI from NI (though at least Ireland still drives on the correct side of the road)

      iv) arguably the Irish system of distances in km and speed limits in mph was barmy and needed to be changed one way or the other.

      v) why change the signs? they don't really cause the UK any problems. So long as they are consistent, who cares? There are lots of other things to worry about.

  19. Astarte
    Happy

    ElReg Standards

    Perhaps someone could define current flow as how many electrons it would take to charge an electric car or how many it takes to drive a mile, kilometre, furlong, A.U., Linguine, etc.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: ElReg Standards

      Obviously, an amp should be defined in the amount of current it takes to render one PHB unconscious with a given length of time of exposure (holding EMF constant, natch.)

      The one with the current metrology sticker on it.

      1. C 18
        Thumb Up

        Re: ElReg Standards

        >...current metrology...

        'current'...nice...

  20. Dan Paul
    Devil

    Leave well enough the frick alone please.....

    Perhaps, you might want to reconsider as there is not one damn thing wrong with the Amp just the way it is. Perhaps those who want to diddle around with miniscule values might just realize that measurements that small don't have any redeeming value in how "accurate" they are compared to one another.

    Quit frikking around whith shite that does not provide any benefit. This is another case of Schroedingers twat.

    1. Jerome Fryer
      Angel

      Re: Leave well enough the frick alone please.....

      The point of all this "diddling around with miniscule values" is that the inaccuracies are problematic for those using more cutting edge technology -- the present definition is simply not good enough. Any redefinitions will indeed be so small in relative terms (much less than parts per million) that the change would have no effect on most applications.

      It won't affect my work, as we run a 'third tier' electrical calibration lab where our uncertainties are orders of magnitude higher than the probable corrections -- higher level labs may have to account for a redefinition to maintain their relative uncertainty levels, however.

      Just because something is a useless exercise to you or I in our mundane activities does not mean it is a worthless exercise for everyone.

    2. C 18
      Meh

      Re: Leave well enough the frick alone please.....

      Well perhaps there is though...

      Didn't you see the video of the boy and his atom? So, there we are looking at tiny, tiny things bopping about... And the boys in blue are telling us this is going to have something to do with storage, as if we needed telling that.

      And their boffins are going...okay so how many amps do we need for these devices...and one of them says, well how much is an amp these days...like in comparison to these tiny, tiny things we made that terrible prawn flick of...oh, well let's see, an amp is like all those balls in that cool ad with the song by yer man on his guitar...heartbeats?...that's the one, anyway that many fer a second like...ah, could you be a bit more specific?...Eh, we'll have to ask Dan Paul, he says there's no point...NOT EVEN FOR SCIENCE!

      1. Dan Paul
        Devil

        Re: Leave well enough the frick alone please.....

        C18,

        Science simply for the sake of science is in many cases, an incredible waste of resources.

        Changing units of measurement that are frankly quite good enough for what they are used for (simply because you can) is extraordinarily stupid. AND a huge waste of resources...

        I suggest a new unit for such people, the microfuckwit. a unit of measurement that not only defines the unit but the person using it.

  21. C 18
    Boffin

    Anyway...

    Didn't they own up about this a while back saying they originally meant raisins not currants?...Or was that in the Koran?

    Mine's the one with the earthing straps trailing out of the back...thanks >buzz!<...oh sorry I zapped you. That happens a lot lately...>bzz<

This topic is closed for new posts.

Other stories you might like