back to article Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'

Microsoft has taken quite a pounding in the press over Windows 8, and it has only intensified the rumors that the planned update to the OS might roll back some of its more controversial features. But Redmond has had quite enough now, and it wants it all to stop. On Friday, Frank X. Shaw, Microsoft's corporate vice president of …

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  1. Turtle

    "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

    Stop whining, shut up, and ship Win 8.1.

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

      Tell you what, Honcho, ship 8.1 AND 7 and tell us which people buy.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

      Karmas a bitch eh Microsoft.. The very same media you mass manipulated into hating Sony and the PS3 so you could get your foot in the gaming door has now turned against you.

      How's it like now the tables have turned?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Barry Shitpeas

        "The very same media you mass manipulated into hating Sony and the PS3..."

        If you think that people hate Sony because Microsoft "manipulated" the media, and not because of Sony's high prices, episodes like the rootkit, the banning of Linux on the PS3, their use of proprietary connectors and cables with price-gouging replacement costs, well I could go on, but if you blame Sony's problems on Microsoft, and not on Sony itself, then you must be on the Sony payroll. Or you're very stupid.

        1. Chika

          Re: @Barry Shitpeas

          Sony's problems didn't help them, admittedly. The trouble is that Microsoft is making quite a few mistakes of their own, some of which look remarkably like those made by Sony.

          Then again, both companies have flung a fair amount of dirt around, so you can't really blame Barry for his view of the situation. Well, not that much...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Barry Shitpeas

            "Sony's problems didn't help them, admittedly. The trouble is that Microsoft is making quite a few mistakes of their own, some of which look remarkably like those made by Sony. Then again, both companies have flung a fair amount of dirt around, so you can't really blame Barry for his view of the situation. Well, not that much..."

            Yeah, I can. As much as I want, too. There's no excuse for the stupidity and ignorance that Barry Shitpeas shows when he blames all of Sony's problems on the press being manipulated by Microsoft.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          WTF?

          Re: @Barry Shitpeas

          @AC

          "If you think that people hate Sony because Microsoft "manipulated" the media, and not because of Sony's high prices, episodes like the rootkit, the banning of Linux on the PS3, their use of proprietary connectors and cables with price-gouging replacement costs"

          Are you for real?

          1. The "Rootkit" wasn't a rootkit, wasn't even Sony (it was First4Internet" and Sony BMG), it predated the PS3 by 10 years, and only an idiot would let that affect a purchasing decision 10 years down the road. By that logic you also should avoid Microsoft's consoles for what they did to Netscape and all the other companies they crushed by their market monopoly and backhanded illegal tricks.

          2. Linux was never "Banned" on the PS3. it was removed as it was being used as a method to crack the console to piracy. And everyone knows, if you console runs cracked games, developers run a mile the next gen (a problem Microsoft will suffer with the NextBox). To believe your "banning" sequence of events, you have demonstrated how the twisted reporting by the media has clouded your judgment so much that you have forgotten in what order the evens occurred. Removal of Linux was a reactionary move and of little consequence, as it was shite. Anyone that used YDL will know that. It took and age to boot and unless you were doing major number crunching, you were wasting your time when you could be playing games on it.

          3. High Prices. Remind me how much Xbox360 owners have spent in Xbox Live fees, replacement consoles and play and charge kits/batteries/memory cards/HDD upgrades/HD DVD add-ons since 2006? The PS3 had all this out the box, nothing else to buy. To even suggest the PS3 was poor value for money is absolutely absurd, and shows us you are an idiot that can't understand the concept of TCO. I'm pretty confident to say that 90% of Xbox360 owners will have spent vastly more than a PS3 owner would have if they had bought their consoles in 2006, and the PS3 owner would have had not only a better gaming experience with better exclusives, but a better media experience too, and far better reliability.

          4. proprietary connectors and cables. Come again? I can't think of a single connector on the PS3 that's not an industry standard. It's pure SATA HDD, USB, HDMI, RJ45... If you want to look at proprietary, take Microsoft's extensive tricks to stop you using off the shelves memory devices and hard disks, and forcing you to use their overpriced ones with special firmware... That right there is price-gouging....

          Sorry for making you look a total tool for burning every single issue. I rest my case, you and many others have been brainwashed by the media into hating Sony and the PS3, simply because Microsoft needed to get their foot in the door. I suspect you read all the tripe you posted from an AMERICAN gaming website. Guess what their agenda is, yep, you know, that AMERICAN console.....

          When you grow up a little bit more, think back to this post, and remember how naive you were..

      2. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

        Err! I think Sony did that all by themselves when they infected the computers of millions of loyal and law abiding music fans with a malign root kit. Or maybe it was when they gave away millions of loyal PS users account details and then went off-line for weeks. Or perhaps it was insufferable closed-ness but without the Apple chic - remember ATRAC anyone! Remember the way they wanted to treat Europians like criminals for modifying their PS maybe believing that Fascist US law is a worldwide juristiction.

        Microsoft may be a hardnosed corporate like Sony when it comes to dealing with companies but, having used them since the 70's (I bought a MS Basic ROM for my Nascom!), they treat their customers good. Always have done.

    3. Scarborough Dave

      Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

      And my start menu back - can't use classic shell forever!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Windows

        Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

        >"And my start menu back - can't use classic shell forever!"

        Why not? Works for me. In fact, Win 8 with Classic Shell is by far the best Windows experience I've ever seen.

        1. Zane
          Happy

          Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

          What you say is probably true - "the best windows experience ever". Just try something like OS X or Linux Mint and you will find out that others are lightyears ahead.

          Zane

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Linux

            Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

            >"Just try something like OS X or Linux Mint and you will find out that others are lightyears ahead."

            I have, and I look at each one as a tool. I use Linux on a lot of my systems at my office, especially for CPU-intensive tasks. I don't use Mint much - I've been using SUSE and openSUSE for many years. And I don't currently use OSX, although some people in the office bring their Macbooks and we have to support them. But really, Win 8 is a very fast and robust system - I've installed it on a couple of workstations and I'm quite pleased with it. I use Classic Shell and hide all the Metro stuff - don't really see the need for Metro stuff when you are using multiple monitors on a desktop.

          2. apjanes
            Mushroom

            Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

            "Just try something like OS X or Linux Mint and you will find out that others are lightyears ahead."

            It somewhat irritates me how people evangelise OS X or Linux as the cure all for Windows (as if a cure is needed). Starting with Windows way back in 3.1, I've seen a massive improvement over the years in stability, performance and usability. I have used several varieties of Linux including Red Hat, Suse and Ubuntu (both Gnome and Unity).

            During the days before Windows 7, I went for a while using Linux as my sole operating system. I went back to WIndows. In the past couple years and at times Linux has become my sole operating system.

            A couple years ago I got a MacBook Pro (I wanted to try iPhone development). For me iOS was okay, but personally I didn't feel it was as usable as Windows 7 (how come, when a confirmation dialog appears I have to reach for the mouse instead of using the keyboard to select the appropriate button and press [enter]?). Now, with Windows 7 and Bootcamp my preference is to boot into Windows.

            Ultimately it would be great to see both a little more humility and a little more objectivity when it comes to operating system discussion. Instead of: "OS X is way better than Windows", something like: "Personally, I find OS X much easier to use because ..." would demonstrate an awareness that preference in operating system depends very much on what you are used to, what you are trying to achieve and... well... preference. Showing such awareness would, I believe, indicate a heightened sense of understanding about how people work and would certainly raise my hackles less

            Sure, none of you know me personally and probably most of you couldn't care less about my hackles so will continue posting as you do, but it does make me feel better posting about it :)

            1. mrweekender
              Megaphone

              Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

              @apjanes - "Personally, I find OS X much easier to use because..." it doesn't crash, I've never had a single virus and the UI is outstanding (subjective opinion). All of which culminates in the honest appraisal that I will continue to use OS X for managing my work and personal data and use a stripped down version of Windows 8 for gaming, until a proper alternative is available.

            2. W. Anderson

              Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

              to commenter "apjanes"

              Here are the facts you requested, although I suspect that as a Microsoft supporter at any costs, they wont' matter.

              1. GNU/Linux, Mac OS x and *BSD from which OS X was originally derived are true 64-bit pre-emptive multi-tasking, multiprocessing operatings systems, compared to Windows 7/2008 for example for which many corporations muct patch and add-on to allow Windows to run, for example 64-bit Oracle or IBM DB2.

              2. The NTFS file system in Windows 2/2008 does not have Cyclic Redundancy Checking (CRC), which accounts for the continual "defrag" and cleanup tasks required. HFS+, EXT$, ZFS fiule systems in *nix are more robust - support Data Mining, Banking/Financial Services processing and "all" the telecommunications and large Internet networking traffic.

              3. Security. Only Windows needs anti-virus/worm/trojan/spywhare "by default", since German firm demonstrated about a year ago that several 12 yrar olds hacked a new un-pritected Windows in 15 minutes, and protected Windows in less than an hour. While there are dozens of Linux distributions, from one person garage hacks to large organization ventures, most of the more popular and well supported Linux need no ant-virus, except to protect windows clients attached.

              4. Reliability. A few examples to prove point. (a) When NASA was preparing for the Mars Curiosity Mission, every test and evaluation for" long term reliability" of Windows "Failed". (b) When Netflix searched for Server OS for their Streaming Media appliances to put by thousands with ISPs to stream tens of millions of movies per month - Windows "Failed" and the Windows IPv6 network stacks could not take the loads required. Enter FreeBSD. (c) After all the other major Stock Exchanges internationally chose Linux or UNIX over Winbdows for security and reliability of handling millions of financial transactions per second, Microsoft funded their technology implementation - to tens of $millions at the London stock Exchange. In less than a year, the London stock Exchange "dumped" windows with public statement "We are divorcing Microsoft /Windows" due to miserable results with Redmond offerings. (d) The government of Brazil spent years and tens of $millions testing and evaluating software for twenty first requirements for their technology requirements. Results, almost all of the Government technology is "non-Microsoft". Ditto for Munich Germany, Vienna, Austria, Government of Russia, South African government, the US Department of Defense, All the Animation Studios of Hollywood, THEUS Department of Energy Research Laboratories - Lawrence Livermore, Fermi, Brookhaven and the rest, Chinese Governmrent and many more, including municipalities in North America.

              I could go on and provide you with "dozens" and "dozens" more real life events of Windows "sucking", but if you do not accept these truths, then no amount of reality matters.

          3. jason 7
            Meh

            Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

            I have too.

            Whilst Linux works fine and dandy, OSX on the other hand feels very very old.

            I've always felt that Apple would love to dump OSX and run everything on iOS.

            OSX feels very unloved and well...clunky.

      2. Lusty

        Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

        @Scarborough Dave the start menu is alive and well in Windows 8 - it's just full screen. Based on user feedback, Microsoft realised that nobody used the area of screen which wasn't the start menu after pressing start and so they full screened it. If you want a vote then stop unticking the customer experience program box when you install, don't whine on web forums!

    4. Bob Vistakin
      Linux

      Rest of Android using manufacturers plead with Microsoft "Stop extorting us!"

      Ahh, cuddly cute Microsoft feel all picked on and want you to feel sorry for them.

      Don't. Not for an instant. "Cruel to be kind" is the only way with this hypocritical cancer.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

      Just yesterday, a story you have heard a thousand times before, but in some ways it is surprising it is still happening like this. A lawyer I know is in the market for a new machine but doesn't want to get one until he has talked to his friend, a PC acolyte "who knows all about computers." His daughter, who lives elswhere with her mum, has a MacBook Air and pleads with him to get one. He does, he does ignoring the advice of his PC acolyte friend. Now he won't shut up about how much better the MacBook Air is.

      Of course previously he was running old *crap* bloated hardware. He didn't have the latest version if Windows. His machine was dog slow. So by comparison the MacBook Air is always going to be getting off to a good start. He also, clearly, doesn't know much about computers. He's a lawyer so can afford the premium price tag. But even with the few datapoints this story yields it illustrates some fundamental points.

      1. Computer Customers are basically sticky, they try to stay with what they know.

      2. Once they are gone they are gone

      3. They lag the state if the art ( he has been blown away by OSX, which is, in relative terms, now getting to be an old OS but has always been on a good foundation ) as compared with probably Windows XP, or Vista.

      4. Bad experiences become like an an anti-brand once someone encounters a good new experience. Surely MS's chance if winning this guy back is now massively reduced (ok a partial restatement of point 2 above, I know)

      In the face of stories like this, MS whining about the tech press is irrelevant. This is entirely the result of relative experience. So, yes this guys experience isn't based on a level playing field, with scientific testing of different devices in the state if the art before purchase, but it *is* based on the kind of personal experience that is one very important part of the battlefield on which MS have to compete. It makes it absolutely clear, they have to focus not just on doing a good job and getting to the point the can market a superior feature list but, now tablets are crunching the margins of the market, really need to produce actual blow your socks off experience. They have to put a product out there that makes the punters really feel it and overcomes the well of bad-will their previous releases have built up. All the rest is just complaining about the reality of how the world is. In other words, this MS Marketing guy needs to direct his complaints inwards at the product team. But at Microsoft it's in the culture of the company, a marketing person would never be able to do that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

        I know people exactly like that too. The main part of the problem which MS need to overcome is that owning a PC is not easy, things go wrong far too easily, constant updates to worry about, varying quality of antivirus and firewalls and the rest of it.

        It's just like owning a car and for the most part doing all the maintenance on it yourself rather than the garage mechanic taking care of it. If the business model had been originally that you take in your PC for annual maintenance when you go on your holidays for a week or two, then the love affair with MS would have been different.

        Apple, although not entirely problem free, have just made owning an operating a computer or device just easy to use and worry free. Android is also getting near to that point. Users love Apple and Android and have bad memories and bad taste of Microsoft. The only people who still like MS are some specialists and those whose livelihood depends upon it. I am actually sticking with MS because with Win 7 I now have a stable platform and it does everyting I need it to do. In addtion I have an Android tablet and phone which are great sync as well with MS Exchange as MS' own software.

        The only way that MS can succeed again, at least in the retail / consumer sector is by a complete change of name / re-branding of the OS and hardware because its strength has now become a massive stubbling block as people recall their bad experiences with the product. They tried with "Windows" but that only rubbed salt in people's wounds. They need to come up with something completely different, base it on BSD / Linux, give it a fruity name (they could buy the rights to the name of former Apricot or Acorn for example) and come up with some sexy phone and tablet and PC hardwares to go with it.

        Long way to go Microsoft, a very long way to go.

        1. SuccessCase

          Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

          @Frank 14. I completely agree. Yes I too think the word's "Microsoft" and "Windows" have become an Anti brand. At least they certainly have for me. I switched to using OSX several years ago and my memory is filled with pain at the thought of Microsoft Windows. Whenever friends ask me for help, I find my arse cheeks clench when I have to sit down at their machines (usually dog slow and chock full of viruses - yes usually mostly their fault - but that's the reality and what their machines have become like). This isn't a *rational* response. I recognise it is emotion. I recognise Win 7 got very good reviews (I left at the height of the pain with Vista). I recognise Win 8 is probably much more performance efficient (though I still have my doubts about any release that contains the same registry architecture). But frankly I don't give a shit and don't have the time of day for Microsoft. Given the amount of time I can illustrate they have been responsible for wasting in my life, I don't want to spend even one more second of my life evaluating their software. It would really have to have outstanding reviews to win me back. Indeed I'm even prepared to spend some minutes writing scathing stuff about them like this!

          Another experience I had recently, was, with a friend visiting PC World in Wimbledon. Immediately on entry the place wreaked of bad customer service attitude. It didn't help that the staff in the upstairs PC section were allowed to play their own music and rap was blaring out the shop speakers. Now don't get me wrong, I actually like a bit of rap, but I'm also realistic enough to recognise, rightly or wrongly, it has immediate "I ain't here to service your needs and ain't gonna help much bro' " connotations. And this in the face of competition from a nearby Apple store in Kingston and Apple reseller Stormfront over the road. It's just a matter of being realistic, and if the PC market can't compete in the most basic ways, they deserve what they are getting. The cacophony of techie brands most people want to know nothing about (because who they are is entirely internal to the task they want done) is hugely damaging to business. It induces a state of mild depression in me every time I see the recogisable PC World purple and yellow. They have shelves of anti virus software and only think of it as goods to shift, not stopping for a second to consider what message there is so much of it, so many competing brands, gives about the PC experience. That the PC market has done so little to adapt to the new world order is quite frankly pathetic.

          Microsoft are stuck unable to do the hardest thing - recognise the very high levels of brand recognition they have with the existing brand is a negative for them. They are stuck in a forrest of competing brands shouting for attention like waiters in tourist trap locations collaring tourists for business, and we want to know nothing about them. Their very presence is turning people off in droves.

          1. William Higinbotham
            Mushroom

            Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

            What Microsoft (Apple is not far behind) is not telling anyone is that their operating system is going toward that of Cell phones. A locked OS where you can only add programs from the Cloud or legitimate online store. They are allowing themselves that capability to leave the PCs behind at a moments notice. I actually grin at what big business is trying to do such as Adobe. This is the future - love them or live without their products. Mankind (starting with the next generation) will be assimilated into the Corporate Borg. The rest of us will be sitting on the roadside curb with our pencil and pad wondering what just happened.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Microsoft honcho pleads with media: 'Stop picking on us!'"

        Strangely enough after 6 years of OSX I am bring swayed by Windows 7. I had to help my old man build a new machine about 6 months back and he wanted Windows 7. He has a Mac too but he had a bit of money to burn and wanted a new toy to play with. After we messed about with Windows 7 for about a week I must say I am extremely impressed. I still don't like the fact that MS chose to bury everything "seven levels deep" as opposed to OSX which has limited settings but they sit just out of sight. However I am slowly starting to think about dumping the Mac, now 4 years old and going back to building a tower, stuffed to the gills with user serviceable parts and buying a copy of Windows 7. The only thing I use that's Mac specific is Aperture but I'm sure Picassa or Lightroom could replace that if I made an effort.

        The old saying "Once you to go Mac..." is now sounding a little hollow.

  2. stephajn
    Pint

    Frankly Mr. Shaw....

    .....we don't give a damn what kind of pop you drink. Couldn't resist.

    But at any rate, yes, Windows 8 does have its good points. I won't deny that. I use it on a laptop that is six years old and it is pretty snappy. Kudos to Microsoft for allowing aging kit like that to run a modern OS. I hardly ever enter Metroland except to use the Netflix app because it just works so perfectly for that. But in the end, I am firmly set in Desktop mode. Sometimes I really miss my start menu that I am used to, but I am waiting patiently for Microsoft to get it through their heads what people have been saying for over a year. GIVE METRO A REST WILL YA????

    I don't want it on my desktop machine for the most part. I really don't. I like the performance improvements, but seriously hate the Windows Boot Manager and what has become of trying to get into Safe Mode or things of that nature.

    to Microsoft I say, "STOP!! PAY ATTENTION!!!!" They were told long before it came out that people hated it and that it wasn't going to do well. They pushed ahead. The market responded and said, "Fine....we are going to go to Apple, Linux or even Android power desktops and laptops if we have to. Take your Windows 8 and shove it if you're not going to listen." The way it sounds is that this guy is feeling like a victim of harassment and he claims that it isn't deserved. It IS deserved!!! The Internet community tried to be nice....Microsoft plugged their ears. Now the Internet community has given up on being nice and is screaming at you to smarten up. So.....stop running around like a whiny little baby and beg for people to "stop picking on you" when you brought it on yourself.

    </rant>

    WHEW! I feel so much better.....time for a pint or two...or...three.....dozen....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Frankly Mr. Shaw....

      But at any rate, yes, Windows 8 does have its good points. I won't deny that. I use it on a laptop that is six years old and it is pretty snappy. Kudos to Microsoft for allowing aging kit like that to run a modern OS.

      ----

      Why is that impressive or worthy of kudos? Windows 8 is the NT 6.2 kernel. Vista was the NT 6.0 kernel. So machines six years ago, designed for Vista, can run something that is in some ways Vista SP2. Really no more impressive than XP SP3 running on a laptop designed when Windows 2000 came out.

      If it could run on hardware not really designed for Vista, or if whatever OS contains NT 7.0 can run well on Vista/7/8 era hardware, then I'll be impressed.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Frankly Mr. Shaw....

        "Windows 8 is the NT 6.2 kernel. Vista was the NT 6.0 kernel. So machines six years ago, designed for Vista, can run something that is in some ways Vista SP2. Really no more impressive than XP SP3 running on a laptop designed when Windows 2000 came out."

        Which may be the problem. Instead of building something new that works, they keep on trying to make the NT code do yet more things. All software gets upgraded and bug fixed, but there comes a time when simply bodging a security fix in, or sticking a crappy new UI on some bits of the old dog simply isn't enough, particularly if you want to have common code across a wider range of devices. I suspect the Windows code is simply too big, too poorly coded and too little understood by Microsoft themselves to enable it to be transformed into something new and good, but they don't have the courage to build something new.

    2. Antoinette Lacroix
      Pint

      Re: Frankly Mr. Shaw....

      "" .....we don't give a damn what kind of pop you drink.""

      Ritchie, Kernighan and Thorvalds drink beer..Explains a lot, doesn't it ?

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    How about you listen to feedback _before_ you RTM next time?

    It's not like the feedback from the developer program for Windows 8 sans start menu, THE ALL CAPITALS MENU in Visual Studio, etc were exactly glowing. If there is any user/media backlash it's because MS have seemingly asked for feedback, gone "bollocks to you all" and done it anyway with a "we know better" attitude, and now think all should be forgiven because they might or might not be fixing things.

    It doesn't exactly build confidence in the technical community, and they arn't behind you, then you're kinda stuck.

    1. Get the puck outa here

      Re: How about you listen to feedback _before_ you RTM next time?

      Win8 is not suitable for anything but touchscreens. Within hours of the beta release, early adopters spotted that fatal limitation, because they installed it on laptops and desktops without touchscreens.

      In typical corporate-think style, Ballmer et al. began shouting down any negative comments as disloyal, biased, or naive, and those people all stopped complaining and went back to Windows7.

      Now that the "respectable" press like The Economist has taken up the issue, MS has progressed from sneering to whining.

      1. lightknight

        Re: How about you listen to feedback _before_ you RTM next time?

        Indeed. When IT was telling MS that Windows 8 was going to sink, MS Marketing came out and gave IT the third degree. I would speak to people about Windows 8, and ask their opinions of it, and they would say that they loved it or hated it, but in either case, 'there is a minority of old techs who refuse to get with the times and get on board.' MS launched a scorched earth attack on its own people for giving it honest feedback, for the simple reason that they would not tout the corporate line, but told them to fix Windows 8.

        Now MS Marketing is experiencing the shoe on the other foot, and suddenly they don't want any of it. Too bad. You guys banjaxxed the OS, you falsified the product feedback, you fought IT tooth and nail when they told you it was a kludge and would cost MS billions, time to take some of your own bitter medicine. The point behind a blood interface is to make things more efficient, faster, better, etc. than a previous one; Windows 8, excluding the StarDock add-ons (which I fancy), appears to fail in this realm. What more, your attempts to unify the desktop / tablet space would be, I don't know, better, if the tablet interface for Windows 8 did not seem to have so many problems (this is hearsay, I grant you, but I have heard that people are complaining that the typing interface / on-screen keyboard needs some polish).

        At the end of the day, people run Windows, in businesses, because it allows them to generate more revenue / profits / be more efficient / whatever than simply using a pen and a piece of paper. As such, the interface should be quick and easy to use...require a minimum of retraining between versions, and run on older hardware. Windows 8 does one of those...and it is built around the idea that everyone would run out and splurge on new touchscreen interfaces, as opposed to the reality that everyone would upgrade hardware over a 3-year cycle. A killer app might have launched earlier upgrades, but there isn't one, that I am aware of, for Windows 8. Office 2013 uses the Cloud...not sure of any features which make use of touch there or a stylus which are a 'must have.' Visual Studio....again, not sure of any touch features there. So...no killer app? Just a new interface built around hardware that only 10% of the customers have, and is useless for giant monitors / projectors / etc. without some special hardware?

        1. Amorous Cowherder
          Happy

          Re: How about you listen to feedback _before_ you RTM next time?

          "blood interface"

          Some sort of edition of Windows for Klingons?

          1. cyborg
            Joke

            Re: How about you listen to feedback _before_ you RTM next time?

            "Some sort of edition of Windows for Klingons?"

            Sounds like the way people are describing their struggles with Windows 8 it is already suitable for a warrior to take on as a challenge.

            "Today is a good die for Modern UI to die."

          2. tony2heads
            Linux

            Klingon code

            That explains everything!

            http://aumha.org/a/klingon.php

            particularly Number 1: “Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!”

    2. spidetfry
      Thumb Up

      Re: How about you listen to feedback _before_ you RTM next time?

      I think this is completely reasonable criticism, they released 3 public previews and after the first the feedback was "Yo Microsoft, you forgot the start menu, we want it back", after the second the feedback was "Hey Microsoft, we said we wanted the start menu back, and you took away the start button", with just disbelief after the third preview. Will they listen now? I doubt it!

  4. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Devil

    Heavy breathing by an acolyte while a voice cackles....

    So let's pause for a moment and consider the center. In the center, selling 100 million copies of a product is a good thing. In the center, spewing FUD is a good thing. In the center, pretending that things are true which are not is a good thing.

    I can feel the anger rising within you. Good. Now, join us in the center, young developer!

  5. Mikel
    FAIL

    The problem with his thesis

    If as he says Windows 8 is a fabulous OS and customers everywhere are eagerly embracing it, enthralled by it... then Frank X. Shaw is the worst "corporate vice president of corporate communications" ever. Because an effective "corporate vice president of corporate communications" would not have to keep coming before the press to say "hey, guys, I don't know if you noticed but... we're not dead yet."

    1. BlueGreen

      Re: The problem with his thesis (or to put it another way)

      it's enjoyable watching him spooning up his own vomit and trying to make out it's a not-very-nice soup.

      In the past week I've lost about a day dealing with your assorted shit interfaces and lack of documentation - about 20% of my time. An entire day I could have had off.

      I hate microsoft products because I have to work with windows/vis. studio/mssql every day - I have reason to hate them.

      Hope your choice of %FizzyDrink%takes the taste away. Which reminds me of just how shit writing stuff in DOS CLI is. And I don't trust MS enough to learn powershell, you'll fuck that up soon enough.

  6. Thorfkin

    They got the same picking on with Vista. But with Vista it really wasn't Microsoft's fault so much as Intel and their crappy drivers and hardware. But with Windows 8 it's every bit Microsoft's fault and they deserve the criticism. Their new interface made the OS easy to use on tablets but considerably harder to use on traditional desktop machines. The need to do better.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "But with Vista it really wasn't Microsoft's fault so much as Intel and their crappy drivers and hardware"

      The driver issue was down to hardware makers in part, but MS shouldn't have released it if there wasn't hardware support. And there are plenty of other things wrong with Vista that were never fixed, and they were MS' fault.

      1. gerryg
        Windows

        It's all about the drivers??

        <= not

        That has got to be the best defence not to use.

        Usually there's someone replying to a thread such as this saying they'd switch to Linux in a heartbeat if only it had the drivers for this or that (may be they should actually check http://www.zdnet.com/device-support-in-windows-vs-linux-4010018141/)

        Windows is a supply-side play. Microsoft could just pay to get the drivers written and recover the cost over time with licence fees revenue. If the drivers haven't been written that points to a Microsoft fail not a need for customer understanding.

  7. Herby

    Being critical of Microsoft...

    Is SO easy. That's why we do it, and will continue to do it.

    We know that Microsoft doesn't care, and never will, so we will be critical for quite a long time.

    Get over it. We know Microsoft products are just an effort to maintain your monopoly, and due to all your tie-ins and non published "standards", we're stuck. Hell yes we are critical!

    And yes, I use Linux as much as I can, even at work where they foistered a laptop on me (it had W7, and the first thing I did was load Fedora 17 on it).

    1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

      1. Super Hans
        Stop

        Re: Being critical of Microsoft... - comes at a price.

        Why should they stop spending on MS? You might not like British Gas as an energy supplier but it's not up to you to tell schools where they get their electricity or who they buy their textbooks from. Having prejudicial ideas about a company does not give you the right to tell public bodies not to engage with them as a supplier.

        Have you actually seen the HUGE discounts Microsoft give to educational and non-profit institutions (or compared these discounts to the measly ones offered by many other software companies)? You will no doubt regard this as evidence of their malevolent intentions to indoctrinate our poor helpless children and students but this really is the overwhelming factor in schools making decisions to buy from Microsoft (along with the fact that the the software works very well for them). Most kids are so IT literate these days that what they use at school doesn't really matter. They are perfectly capable of switching to Ubuntu or something similar if they so wish (it took my 9 year old daughter about 20 mins to get familiar with Ubuntu when I installed it on an old laptop for her a couple of weeks ago).

        Anyway there will never be any point in trying to convince you of any of this, you already made your mind up on Microsoft many years ago. Belief is the death of intelligence.

        1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Being critical of Microsoft... - comes at a price.

        @Eadon:

        You get downvoted, mocked, insulted and so forth, because this is how you behave to other people. It's not too long since you accused anyone who disagreed with you of being a shill, you claimed to have had sex with my mother, why do you think that this makes you deserving of nice treatment? You don't listen to others, you don't discuss, you don't reason, you just trumpet your opinion. You have lost any rights you could have to being treated nicely, it's a two way street.

        There are plenty of schools who are deploying school wide iPads to replace aging Windows laptops (and Mac laptops/desktops in many cases, like my father's school.) This is a far more serious problem because they're expensive, fragile and don't run any software that a pupil could conceivably use in the workspace - they don't even have keyboards!

      3. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Re: Being critical of Microsoft... - comes at a price.

        "Look at my experiences. I tell the truth about it and am downvoted, mocked, insulted, and so forth. None of this matters of course."

        F.O. Eadon, you and your bleeding heart. Maybe the Anti-Defamation League will listen to you.

      4. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Eadon

        "I tell the truth about it and am downvoted, mocked, insulted, and so forth. None of this matters of course."

        1) You do not "tell the truth" because...

        2) You are ideologically incapable of seeing, knowing, or recognizing the truth, and refuse to entertain any opinion that does not demonize Microsoft, thus...

        3) You are a dishonest advocate who merits all the insults you receive.

      5. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Eadon - recognise the irony

        I rather love the irony you have produced here.

        Because you have been posting your anti Microsoft rants under almost every article, even those where it is wildly offtopic, we now find you mentioned practically everywhere in a negative fashion - even when it's not relevant.

        The reason is simple: there is a vast difference between between foaming-at-the-mouth activism and reasoned debate with simple to verify facts where you don't need to be for or against, just have an opinion based on facts. It's even OK that your experience differs completely from the rest of the planet, provided you keep in mind that your experience/opinion is not the one the rest of the world needs to have, or needs to be convinced of.

        Thus, your downvotes have become wholly disconnected from any argument you make, because they usually aren't arguments - they are rants. Try educating yourself about reasoned discourse, maybe dial down the Richard Stallman mode a bit and you may gain some respect for what you say.

        Ironic fact no 2: you and Microsoft share a seriously damaged image - through your own actions.

        1. eulampios

          @Anonymous Coward

          maybe dial down the Richard Stallman mode a bit

          Downvotng you for that. What is your name, Coward?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: @Anonymous Coward

            maybe dial down the Richard Stallman mode a bit

            Downvotng you for that. What is your name, Coward?

            Not Richard Stallman, obviously.

            You read this wrong, I think. I have respect for Richard Stallman, but the man needs a spokesperson. Personally, I think he's at least 50% responsible for Linux as it is today, because an OS does not exist by kernels alone, but the guy doesn't know how to deal with public at large. This is where the overlap occurs: Eadon is as devoid of a clue as well in that department (but as far as I can tell not quite as capable).

            On the plus side, Richard Stallman will at least never state "facts" he is not absolutely sure of. Eadon seems not to have that much of a hesitation in that department (QED)..

      6. Don Jefe
        Angel

        Re: Being critical of Microsoft... - comes at a price. @Eadon

        Eadon, you commit the #1 'sin' of many IT folk: You come across as an arrogant dickhole. Regardless of how correct or valid your point may be, people aren't going to give it any attention because of your insufferable, condescending attitude. You are stealing your own thunder.

        There are a lot of intelligent people on this site who (judging by your youngish tone) have decades more experience than you and you aren't ever going to convince or persuade them in any manner until you step up your level of discourse. You are obviously not an idiot so why don't you make an attempt to engage in meaningful commentary and debate with the rest of the El Reg readers, you might even find you learn something new, have a good time and might even convince people you are correct (sometimes).

        I may have just wasted my time but I sincerely hope not.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Being critical of Microsoft...

      Of course Microsoft don't care, no company 'cares', the notion itself is ridiculous!. Microsoft exists to make money like EVERY company. By all means be critical but not because the company doesn't care, that is just plain daft!

  8. Aoyagi Aichou
    Holmes

    I'm shocked. Shocked!

    So basically, what he is saying is that they are going to try to get as much data from the users as possible ( "There are many advantages to living in a world that is mostly connected. Feedback is immediate."), that they are turning/have turned into an ad company ("...page views are currency...") and that they are going to follow this road of completely ignoring the needs of a traditional PC - mouse and keyboard ("...moving the entire industry toward an exciting future of touch, mobility, and seamless, cross-device experiences.").

    Does anyone else see that or has my distrust in Microsoft reached sky levels?

    1. Wade Burchette Silver badge

      Re: I'm shocked. Shocked!

      One thing that I really hate about Windows 8, besides TIFKAM, is how Microsoft wants you to integrate the computer's log in with a Microsoft Live account. Most people I have met wisely don't use that feature.

      1. apjanes
        Thumb Up

        Re: I'm shocked. Shocked!

        Yes, that is also a think I hate about Google Chrome. While I love the browser itself, I do not want to connect the public library's computer to my Google account just because I log into Gmail!

        Aside:

        It's probable that lots of people will cry out against my using Gmail (with its use of my data to serve up tailored ads), but frankly, I couldn't care less if Google does statistical analysis on my latest Living Social spam and I like to think I am intelligent and independent enough to rationally evaluate any ads presented to me).

  9. Mark Simon
    Holmes

    Self Inflicted

    Microsoft has had plenty of warning that the interface was going to be unpopular. All the pre-release reviews made that amazingly clear. Take away the start screen, and all you really get is Windows 7, only more annoying and harder to work with.

    Microsoft deserves all the criticism it gets. Apple gets it for changing a connector or dropping scroll bars. Microsoft is in a global dominant position, and when it starts creating culture shock with every new incarnation of their OS, a backlash must be obvious.

    Slowly, the world is getting smarter, and a few more people are beginning to work out that they don’t have to put up with Microsoft dumping whatever they feel like on paying customers. Microsoft’s pointless changes are making it clear that they have no plan, and no idea what makes a good computing experience.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Self Inflicted

      The real reason hasn't been mentioned here. It's that Microsoft is a MARKETING COMPANY. It's only incidental that what they sell is software. The marketeers said "we need some TOUCH STUFF", and the software people produced the usual version nought point one crap. Remember DOS 1.0, or Windows 1.0....etc etc. Same thing here.

      1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

        Re: Self Inflicted

        I want you to listen very carefully here. This is important: if Microsoft is a marketing company then they are the worst marketing company on Earth.. I say that as someone who owns a marketing company! They possess no clues. None of them. None of the goddamned clues.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Self Inflicted

          > They possess no clues. None of them. None of the goddamned clues.

          Yes, we know.

        2. Bernardo Sviso

          Re: Self Inflicted

          "I want you to listen very carefully here. This is important: if Microsoft is a marketing company then they are the worst marketing company on Earth.. I say that as someone who owns a marketing company! They possess no clues. None of them. None of the goddamned clues."

          It's interesting to hear this from someone who is actually in marketing.

          Neal Stephenson argued the same thing in his classic essay: "In the Beginning Was the Command Line..."

          http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html

          (though somewhat dated (when he wrote it, BeOS was still a contender) this exposition is still well worth reading).

          1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge
            Pint

            Re: Self Inflicted

            Ah, the cryptonomnomnom. One of my favourite books; and lo: this past month I've taken up with a gaggle of folks who are displeased by "cloud + patriot act" symptom combo. They're building a datahaven: life imitates fiction once more.

            Beer, because it's the closest thing to melted gold.

  10. stanimir
    Pint

    Beer or... bust

    I'm a Diet Coke drinker, not pepsi. fwiw. diet coke/diet shmoke, see above.

    It's Friday, at least be serious about something as you fail at propaganda.

    A nifty tip: if you can cause more eye discomfort: pressing 'windows' key, ask the guys to code few extra full screen stroboscope effects and randomly pick one each time. Later you may explain how that innovative feature helps better out cognition.

  11. erikj

    Microsoft own evangelists...

    ...will enthusiastically, (and rightfully, IMO) show you Win 8 does a good job on a slate or mob, yet in the same breath throw the desktop edition squarely under the bus. Even in a room full of faithful partners like me, they didn't even try to sell the desktop story. I think the exact words were "leaving usability on a non-touch device aside, ...".

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    In many cases they were asking for it...

    Sure, I agree with the "complaint" when we're talking about bashing or plain out trolling, but in general I think Microsoft was asking for it, big time even.

    Simply because when we reached a point where everyone could clearly conclude that Windows 8 wasn't really taking off Microsoft remained in denial. Worse: they first started to blame their entire surroundings ("The vendors haven't been trained enough", "The customers don't understand it", "The resellers don't put enough effort into it"), while continuously waving away any criticism. But it got even get worse than this: how about sharing sales figures as a form of proof how well Windows 8 was selling, while everyone could easily conclude that we were looking at figures which would have been made anyway, one way or the other (Windows 8 gets bundled with new PC's after all).

    If Microsoft would have been open with their audience from the get go then I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have gotten as much comments as they got now. There's nothing wrong with taking some pride in your work, not even if many others don't seem to like it. Just don't try to pretend the product is better than it actually is, because that is going to haunt you in the end.

  13. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

    "Stop picking on us."

    I believe my bare minimum requirements for Microsoft to start earning back my trust were quite clear. They are here.

    I'll not hold my breath.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Meh

    What? I only heard Neil.

    I feel like he said nothing, I mean this completely. I believe the editor (Neil) was the only saving grace, without the editors words, the other guys comments read like generic P.R. dribble you find in junk mail from health insurance companies. Truthfully, if you edited out a few company specific words, you could apply that public statement to any field or company. And people wonder why Microsoft seems so generic.

    1. Bob Vistakin
      Holmes

      Re: What? I only heard Neil.

      That read to me the way a man who has been forced by some Blamer to go out to the press and polish a turd, even though the very thought disgusts him and he knows instinctively he's onto a loser.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Unfortunately for Microsoft...

    ... neither The Financial Times nor The Economist derive the majority of their advertising revenue from Microsoft.

    The days of the only magazines to cover computer issues being largely funded by Microsoft advertising are over. It must make it very hard to exercise the "influence" that Microsoft once did.

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      Re: Unfortunately for Microsoft...

      Nor The Independent:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/steve-ballmer-the-boss-who-bet-his-company-on-windows-8--and-lost-as-computer-giant-announces-biggest-product-uturn-since-new-coke-8605776.html

      Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha...

      1. apjanes
        Thumb Up

        Re: Unfortunately for Microsoft...

        Ha! You have to love the "user friendly" URLs! Pretty soon they'll dispense with the article all together and just put all the content in the URL! :D

  16. Big-nosed Pengie

    Media pleads with Microsoft

    "Stop making shite."

    1. eulampios

      Re: Media pleads with Microsoft

      Or at least, "try not dumping that shite everywhere you go".

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    Good read

    It'd really be nice if once, just once, they admitted they stuffed up, in plain language and told us what they were doing to fix it. These canned PR statements/blog posts (which are so easy to take the piss out of) don't do much to build build the brand away from overstuffed, corporate robots who are completely detached from their customer base. Oh and while I'm having a rant, stop pretending your 'leaking' builds to 'build excitement', you're not fooling anybody.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that Win8 is a great example of why the PR people need to go to the same place as all the lawyers.

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      the PR people need to go to the same place as all the lawyers.

      The B ark ?

      1. Steve Brooks

        Re: the PR people need to go to the same place as all the lawyers.

        Wasn't that just phone sanitizers, social documentary film makers and hair dressers?

        1. dajames Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: the PR people need to go to the same place as all the lawyers.

          Wasn't that just phone sanitizers, social documentary film makers and hair dressers?

          I think you'll find that "advertising account executives" were explicitly mentioned -- that's PR people in some shape or form -- not sure about lawyers, though.

          Beer ... because I've never been through a transmat beam before.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Windows 2008R2 for us

    $EMPLOYER is moving straight to Windows 2008R2 for those applications that require Windows at all.

    If it must be Windows, skip the eye candy, get work done... what's not to like about that?

  19. Tom 35

    nuanced analysis

    If some dog takes a huge dump on your lawn, nuanced analysis is that last thing you need.

    "He's starting to lose us here."

    Maybe he is talking about that other shades of gray. That was crap and it sold like crazy, why don't people buy our crap.

    - Metro is crap.

    - Windows RT / Surface is crap (I know, I have one)

    - Windows Surface Pro is good for a few people (just like older windows tablets) but too expensive for general users, and even with touch metro is still kind of crap.

    - Windows Phone (is not Windows) is kind of ok, until you add the locked down, buy it from the app store crap. If you want that just buy an iThing and have lots of apps.

  20. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Where is Eadon when you need him?

    I would have thought that this article would have been much too hard to resist for a rant or two.

    Only joking.

    MS are doing a really good job of messing it up themselves. Many of us are waiting to see what the 'New' version holds. Will we get a proper 'Classic' UI?

    Stay tuned folks for the next thrilling installment of the 'Battle of Microsoft'.

    1. Steven Raith
      Thumb Up

      Re: Where is Eadon when you need him?

      Some say that if you say his name three times in a mirror...

      "Eadon, Eadon, Eadon!"

      He appears behind you and installs Slackware on your laptop! :-0

      Steven R

    2. Paul Shirley

      Re: Where is Eadon when you need him?

      As far as I can see Microsoft have said absolutely nothing about reverting anything meaningful at all. Its one interpretation they've let the press run riot with but vague hints about responding to feedback could easily cover new ways to change the ui.

      Till it launches we won't know how cosmetic fixes are, how misguided this batch are, how much more education users can have forced on them.

      The only one I feel confident will be there is a Start Button. Leading straight to the Metro Start screen not anything useful.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft chap...anything that needs extra clicks to do the same thing you used to do in less clicks is something you should not do. Simple really.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where's Eadon?

    Still in bed?

    1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Meh

    " selling 100 million copies of a product is a good thing"

    But how many of those copies are installed on hardware sat in warehouses waiting for the non-fondling public to finally get Windows 8? Surely it would be trivial for MS to count the number of platforms that have become active and tell is that figure?

    I have no beef with the tablet versions, but I will not upgrade to a laptop/desktop version, nor will I advise any of my relatives to do so until MS come up with something that I think is at least as usable as Windows 7 (and I don't care how fast it is under the hood in comparison).

    1. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  24. Sentient

    He has a point

    Me personally I like some things of windows 8. It's faster, the tiles are nice and it doesn't get in the way when I am working.

    But still soo many people need to tell me that it sucks, that MS is evil etc... When I ask them whether they've used it it's either no or yes I have played with it.

    1. Matt_payne666

      Re: He has a point

      Ill upvote this as I've been using win8 since the RC, the advantages far outweigh the new start menu... Which isn't really that difficult to navigate...

  25. lloyd_atkinson
    FAIL

    It's simple, stop producing a piece of crap OS every other release.

    1. Mikel
      Devil

      You are about to get your wish

      Next time be more careful how you phrase your wish, as the result may not be what you wanted.

  26. the J to the C

    I for one am really happy that windows 8 is out, without it i would have still being using Windows 7 with all the crap I installed on it, now after Installing Windows 8 I was left with little choice but to format the harddrive and start again with Windows 7, its faster now with the crap not installed

  27. Fihart

    Bullies

    Microsoft, the reason we hate you is the same reason everyone hates bullies.

    1) People buying a new machine had to pay for Vista AND XP -- wasting a day uninstalling Vista and installing XP. When all we wanted was XP (unlike Vista it worked reliably and worked with our existing applications).

    2) You introduced DOCX as the default save in Word so we had to buy a new copy of Office (not just Word as you used to be able to buy) or be cut off from other users.

    3) Every new version of Windows is much bigger, so we spend on new hardware when the old stuff could be run for several years longer. I haven't checked Win8 but as it's full of stuff redundant to a desktop, like touch, it's presumably enormous.

    4) Your are now trying to get people to rent Office (for about the same amount per annum as the cheapest old version was available to buy outright).

    5) You try to make us upgrade every machine on a network when you keep messing about with Windows Networking so that one version won't play with another (even conflicts between XP Service Packs).

    6) Let's not even go into the way you've treated hardware manufacturers.

    7) Let's also not go into the treatment your competitors have suffered.

    Naturally, not everyone will agree with every charge on this list -- but I suspect many will be able to add to the list.

    1. Jess

      Re: Bullies

      > 2) You introduced DOCX as the default save in Word so we had to buy a new copy of Office (not just Word as you used to be able to buy) or be cut off from other users

      They have just done similar with Skype. the latest version won't do video chat with earlier versions (such as the latest version for PowerPC)

      https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA12252/why-can-t-i-make-video-calls-on-the-latest-version-of-skype-for-windows-desktop

      They still have a version that works.

    2. Bernardo Sviso

      Re: Bullies

      2) docx was just as much (probably more) about throwing a sabot in the works of the alternative office suites (and especially the free/open-source ones) as it was about planned obsolescence -- not that these motives are incompatible.

      Which brings us to recall the wrecking-crew they threw into the ISO standards process, and the MS-OOXML "standard" they pushed through the ISO.

      Of course, for the "typical user" the real crime, with immediate practical consequence, (list item @8) was MS's "maliciously compatible" implementation of ODF in MS Office, which (fancy that!) is the only ODF implementation that can't/won't play well with anybody (let alone everybody) else's implementation. Despite the fact that the ODF standard is a "standard" in practice, rather than just a rubber-stamped dog' breakfast, and despite most of the others' application software being open-source and readily examined for resolving any issues or confusion.

      3) I thought that Windows 8 (and possibly Windows 7) were actually lighter on system hardware requirements than Vista. (if I'm mistaken, please feel free to enlighten me).

      1. Fihart

        Re: Bullies @Bernardo Sviso

        You're probably right about Win7 v Vista size -- but Win7 takes maybe 8x the hard disk space of the original XP distribution.

        Add an item 9 to your 8 in the above list. The demise of the Windows distribution CD (latterly DVD due to bloat) and, instead, just a disk image on the hard drive. Fine if the average laptop user ever gets round to burning a disk from it but how many do ?

        Hard drive fails, those with the know-how to replace a hard drive, obliged to obtain a fresh copy of Windows. Others may just bin an otherwise serviceable laptop.

        Microsoft can't lose.

  28. Lionel Baden

    Windows 8

    so good i actually made the effort to uninstall it and re-install win 7

  29. wolfmeister

    any grown man who actually expressed a 'cola preference' wouldnt be running my company. what is he? 16?

    1. Aoyagi Aichou
      Pint

      Yeah, real men drink beer! They also eat only meat, drive trucks, are proud of their gorilla-like body hair and watch some popular sport. Else they are a cigarette.

  30. Hoe
    FAIL

    A Good Product...

    That's what they said about the Sinclair C5 isn't it?

    "It's a good product, the best in fact for a market which doesn't exist!"

    Ops.

  31. JeffyPooh
    Pint

    I don't like 'Stoopid'

    The Windows 8 Metro GUI *is* utterly 'Stoopid'. Anyone that claims different is a moron - period.

    FWIW: I thought Windows 7 was pretty nice.

  32. W. Anderson

    The problem for Microsoft is that the company has never had to directly face harsh, and mostly accurate criticism of it's products in the past, and therefore seems unable to handle and mitigate negative reviews on such a large scale.

    I would suggest Mr. Shaw concentrate his energy and vitriol on the development departments of Microsoft, in an effort to dramatically improve Windows 8, Internet Explorer , Microsoft security Essentials and even their Windows Server to an acceptable level of reliability and security. All the blowback in the world won't make Windows work satisfactory or pleasingly, and his denigration of reasonable and legitimate - although sometimes strong - faultfinding of Windows is unacceptable and stupid.

    He need to get with the realities of the technology world in 2013.

  33. Dana W

    If Microsoft spent half as much time improving their product as they spent on media spin campaigns and slamming their competitors product this sort of thing wouldn't be necessary at all.

  34. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "There are many advantages to living in a world that is mostly connected. Feedback is immediate. Weak signals are easily amplified. Voices can be heard."

    That feedback has to be listened too though. Testers complained, analysts said the sky was falling and all Microsoft said is that users will adapt. If Microsoft listened, they could have dropped Metro before Windows 8 shipped and offered the classic UI. Microsoft dismissed all of that and now they want people to stop picking on them. Sorry Microsoft, you did this to yourself. Next time, LISTEN!!!!!!!!

  35. Interceptor
    Stop

    Hi Mr. Shaw, hope you read this. Diet anything is nasty fucking crap; you'd be better off melting down the PCB jug it came in and drinking it. Coke, Pepsi, doesn't matter. And the "real" kind isn't much better with all the damn HFCS. Get "Hecho en Mexico" labelled Coke if you must - cane sugar, not corn syrup.

    ...and with that said, 8 sucks, nobody cares for it, your "'n' Million shipped!" just means you forced it on a new generation of PC users and tablet owners. I'd like to see the data on how many of those millions grabbed a Win7 install and blew 8 away the minute they got their new desktop/laptop/fondleslab set up.

  36. Fihart

    @ Interceptor

    " I'd like to see the data on how many of those millions grabbed a Win7 install and blew 8 away the minute they got their new desktop/laptop/fondleslab set up."

    More likely, how many took the new W8 laptop back to the retailer and traded it for a refund -- or an Apple ?

  37. Tyrion
    Devil

    World's Smallest violin

    For the world's biggest monopolist and extorter.

    Now where's the popcorn so I can watch Microsoft implode in style...

  38. Prowler
    Alien

    He means "Stop Criticizing Us"

    ... which would be very convenient wouldn't it?

    In reality this is a coordinated campaign Make believe they are responsive, get face time in the press which is the same thing as a Windows 8 advertisement.

    If you read forums which Softies inhabit you already are aware of this tact. Poor Microsoft considers themselves under siege, and believe: 'well they're gonna hate us either way so let's just do what we want'.

    That's not fiction, those words are paraphrased all the time by Softies and sycophants. It's astonishing really.

  39. All names Taken
    Paris Hilton

    Only solution?

    MS to become a tardy, low return, profit poor (exempt?) zone from which it does an Kodak (alright - I really mean the Apple) type rebound into fame, fortune, acceptability and like-ability?

  40. Scarborough Dave

    Confession we have 49 of those W8 licenses

    At the foot of my desk, bought when it was cheaper price.

    It's staying there until we get the start menu - so I don't have spend hours training the crew to use W8 without a touch screen.

    1. Mike 29

      Re: Confession we have 49 of those W8 licenses

      Yeah, I have 2 myself.

  41. Zork ][

    "... improving a product is a good thing"

    I'm still cross about Ribbons in Office. "Improving a product" may not be a good thing. If adding Ribbons to MS Office cost every customer a day to learn for no productivity gain then it cost the world billions dollars in lost productivity. There are just so many MS Office users. This is true even if Microsoft and others think Ribbons look nicer. A similar argument can be made against Win 8.

  42. anonomouser

    Re: Product suggestions submission

    Dear Mr. Shaw,

    Thank you for your suggestions regarding your Microsoft product; we will be sure to give it all the consideration it deserves. But the Microsoft Developer Team, with it's many years of experience, already knows what's best for you. As always we endeavor to make your Microsoft Software Experience the best and most profitable as is possible. So while you are waiting for our next product update cycle, you can try downloading the latest drivers from your video card manufacturer and see if that helps. And be sure to watch for our new TV commercial coming soon; it'll have even more of that dancing that we know you love.

    Regards,

    The Microsoft Developer Team

  43. Pelican Express
    Devil

    Please leave us alone so we continue our Scoogle campaign FUD.

  44. The_Regulator

    So many complaints all about the same thing

    No start menu and metro....

    I used the previews and did nit like them at all. Now I use the pro version of win 8 and will never go back.

    The OS is rock solid everything works out of the box and I can run everything I did on win 7 without a hitch.

    If I want to use apps I have the option to do so.

    Yes it needs some tweaks but you guys and many reviewers make it out to be vista which it certainly is not.

    What MS should say is STOP THE CLOSED MINDEDNESS!!!!!

    Win 8 Ftw lol...

    1. silent_count

      Re: So many complaints all about the same thing

      You're right. The the Win8 operating system itself is pretty solid but non-developers don't interact with the OS, they use the shell. Most of the complaints I've heard and seen are about the UI, as distinct from the OS it runs on.

      If MS wants to turn this story around it'd take them about 10 minutes. Create a registry value called "FuckOffMetro". When this value is set to 1: all calls to the metro API return EUNKNOWN, and the Window 7 shell is used in favour of the one from Win8.

      That alone would lower the volume of complaints about Win8 by an order of magnitude. Of course, it will never happen because that would involve MS admitting that they made a mistake.

      1. The_Regulator

        But if you don't want to run in metro you don't have to, you can pin whatever to desktop or legacy taskbar so the only time you need metro is when you boot.

        I don't get why everyone is crushing it when you have a choice?

        Personally I use metro for a few things eg sports apps, tech apps and other news but otherwise I'm in desktop mode as if I'm using win 7 but with a better UI.

        Obviously I am in the minority if they are talking about reverting to start menu, would prefer just an option to renew start vs fully bringing it back tbh.

    2. Amorous Cowherder
      Facepalm

      Re: So many complaints all about the same thing

      The quirky, gimmicky style of your post combined with that dreadful last line leads me to one of two conclusions, you're either an MS ad agency shill trying to "get hip" and "down wiv da MS 'friends' " ( customers as adults call them ) or you are in fact a 14 year old ICT student who's entire IT experience started with Windows XP3 and has seen nothing of the evolution of consumer IT development in the last 25 years!

      1. The_Regulator

        Actually am neither of those things, simply a consumer who has been using windows OS since about 95 not worried about being down voted for saying I like something even though the majority disagree.

        Last couple of lines were a joke also just fyi as I know most of the folks here can't stand anyone actually praising anything created by MSFT.

        My experience with win 8 - been using since August on my home desktop PC (not touch), tried going back to win 7 after using 8 for about 6 weeks and realized how much more I enjoyed using 8....

  45. dssf

    These URLs might interest some: "5 CEOs that truly deserve being fired"

    These URLs might interest some: "5 CEOs that truly deserve being fired":

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/05/12/oops-5-ceos-that-should-have-already-been-fired-cisco-ge-walmart-sears-microsoft/

    "On Steve Ballmere's Gravestone"

    http://stream.wsj.com/story/latest-headlines/SS-2-63399/SS-2-230468/

    Not taking sides one way or the other... Just sharing the URLs since one is in a Sunday paper I am reading now.

  46. Snik

    Hey dickwad, try to get this straight.... we don't want metroturd, and we never will. Failure to address this issue will result in the second straight disaster for your company. It may well be time to clear out the deadwood at ms, 'cuz you clowns clearly don't seem to 'get it'...

    How's that for extreme...?? 'Cept of course it's all true...

  47. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    95% of commentards haven't even used Windows 8

    It seems that the insults that are fired at Windows 8 beyond not having a start button are the summary of ignorant compilation of experiences garnered over the years of failures with other MS products.

    It's a good OS, get over it. Not everyone wants to fart around with an unsupported linux flavour with umpteen different interfaces possibilities. Most people want to be able to get what they want done in the fastest way possible. As for Max OS - it's fine, but no one wants to be tied to a single manufacturer.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 95% of commentards haven't even used Windows 8

      I have, since the dev previews. It's an abhorrence on the desktop. A total travestry.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: 95% of commentards haven't even used Windows 8

        really? Name 3 things that make it unusable, a travestry as you put it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 95% of commentards haven't even used Windows 8

          TIFKAM aka Modern interface.

          The neutered desktop that requires the addition of third party applications to make usable once again.

          The schizophrenic nature of the switch from TIFKAM to desktop.

          The Fisher-Price nature of TIFKAM as every bloody thing flashes at you.

          The whole Windows 8/Windows RT clusterfuck.

          SecureBoot. And yes, I am justified in this as it outs a MS initiative to control users.

          Note: this is about the desktop, on mobile or other touch device it's passable.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            LMAO you couldn't come up with something better than this??? Ohhhh noooo I have to move my cursor to the corners of the screen I don't have my shitty looking start menu anymore.

            Please, when you get out of using baby arguments come post some more!!

            Sick of whiny little cry babies about metro and start buttons.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              On a desktop OS the UI is key as it either enables or hinders the workflow. The fact you fail to understand this speaks volumes.

              @Jess - Check WINE (and PlayOnLinux) out. There may be no need to run XP as a VM.

        2. Jess

          Name 3 things that make it unusable, a travestry

          Why do you need 3 things?

          The user interface alone is a show stopper.

          Apart from the lack of DVD replay, there was nothing to indicate the rest of the system isn't fine, as it is reputed to be.

          Were Microsoft to put the windows shell (like win 2k, i.e nice and lean) on it and make it place nicely with existing XP domains (just like Windows 7 doesn't), it would be flying off the shelves, as opposed to providing a big boost to alternative systems.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 95% of commentards haven't even used Windows 8

      "As for Max OS - it's fine, but no one wants to be tied to a single manufacturer."

      Granted but tell me now, how many companies make and produce variants of the Windows O/S? Hmmm, tricky....

      OSX will run on a vast arrary Intel based hardware combos, granted it's a little bit "naughty" and bit of a tiny thorn in Apple's little finger but it can't be hurting their bottom line that much else OSX86 and TonyMac websites would have been shut down yonks ago!

    3. Jess

      Re: 95% of commentards haven't even used Windows 8

      I tried, it installed fine. However the user interface is the worst desktop GUI, I have seen on any system I can think of, on a non touch screen device. (Including Windows 2 - 7, Gem, RISC OS, various Linuxes, OS/2, Android 86, mac 6 - X, Symbian, BB OS 4-6.)

      This was a big disappointment, because I had planned to take up the cheap upgrade offer, but it was so bad I am going to move my PC over to Linux by the time support ends (undecided between Debian, Ubuntu-Mint and Debian-Mint), with an XP VM to run the odd bits of legacy software.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Lol @ running an XP vm on your box, after I read that everything else in your comment means precisely nothing as I suspected.

  48. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Torygraph too

    Even the torygraph is now running a Windows 8 disaster story... all we need is the Morning Star and the set will be complete...

  49. darklordsid
    Mushroom

    "In this world where everyone is a publisher"...

    MS wants to impose 8 to be the only one with the right to publish software, and so, news/social/aggregator reader apps, and so, to influence news!

    Thank you Mouth of Microsoft, you could have not spoken more clearly!

  50. fishdog
    Mushroom

    FUD and Irony

    Microsoft learnt all they know about sowing Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD) as a hold-the-market strategem, from IBM. Just sow the seeds and watch the 'nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft' people, who never take any risk they can't blame on someone else if it goes pear-shaped, hold off purchasing until their favourite supplier has a product in their space.

    The irony is that MS became the behemoth it is today at the expense of IBM, because MS served the corporate desktop customers (i.e. the real money in PC shipments, the people who pay license fees every quarter) better than IBM did.

    With Windows 8, MS threw all those people under the bus so they could chase the fondleslab market with the idiotic mantra from MS Marketing of 'one version of Windows, running on everything'. I mean, who the fuck cares?

    The additional irony is that they did this out of nothing but FEAR. Fear that Google and Apple would own the next big thing in computing (which is what Frank X Shaw is talking about), the mobile, always connected, 2.0, bla bla marketing speak bullshit buzzword soup hypescheiss.

    In the 80's, the biggest IBM customers, the people who needed them the most, were the people who hated them the most. The people who would, and did, jump at any alternative that looked promising. The corporate desktops. The money.

    Today, these same people, who rely on MS more than anyone, hate them more than anyone, and for exactly the same reasons.

    One further irony is that Windows 8 on a mobile device without a touchscreen, like a classic notebook or laptop, is a maddening experience that makes you long for the days of XP.

    Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before the fall.

    And so it goes ...

  51. PassingCloud

    MS management in denial blames the customers for it's own failings, primarily amongst them is massive over-charging for licences and designed-in software incompatibility with the rest-of-the-world-even to the extent 50% cant even get email with the new tablet.

    Barclays bank baulked at the licence fees and is going 100% Open Source to save £billions that MS would have had a slice off. And large companies using MS in the Cloud is laughable as the licence fees would be astronomical and unnecessary in the Cloud era.

    MS should realise there is no chargeable premium for MS products like there is was Apple, and they should stop skimming customers. They are so lost, it is laughable. Their time is over as a huge dominant company

    -get over it.

    MS need to become a 100% Cloud Company fast or slip out of the top 10 into the top 100.

    And the dolts blame the customers!!

  52. darklordsid
    WTF?

    It has to be expected

    They blamed beta testers that downloaded 1/3 of Win8 betas than Win7 betas

    They blamed OEMs of not being happy to the murder attempt called Surface, and for not accelerating their suicide stuffing the supply chain of w8 machines no one wants due to w8 itself

    They blamed developers of being not happy of the coup-d'etat attempt for becoming the sole software distributor with Store

    They blamed journalists for not buying their hipe and dare criticizing W8, effectively pressuring to remove many bad reviews and feedbacks.

    They blamed usability expert to have bashed Metro UI that is more focused in selling ads than being usable...

    The next move is blaming users for not understanding how great they are, of course, what else would you expect?

    1. fishdog
      Facepalm

      Re: It has to be expected

      Winston Churchill, speaking of the Americans, said you could trust them to always do the right thing, after every other possibility has been tried.

      Microsoft is, a la your comment, a truly American company.

  53. Stupots
    FAIL

    What did they expect?

    Because Windows 8 is trying to be a tablet and desktop OS, the best it could possibly hope to manage is 3rd place on the tablet OS charts and 4th place on the Desktop OS charts, surely?

    It is clear that in its present form it was never an enterprise OS. Even Server 2012 switches between GUIs and doesn't know what it is some of the time.

    An improved Windows 7 (adding new features etc) would have had users embracing it. I've been telling my bosses Windows 8 would be Microsoft's new Vista since trying it in Beta.

    Thanks

  54. Simon B
    WTF?

    Maybe if microsoft had listening from day 1 and not released something most people hated and found Impractical, people wouldn't be 'picking on them'!!

    I read enough from tests and prereleases etc to know to avoid it long before it was released, they chose not to listen, so why moan?

    1. The_Regulator

      So you just let other people make up your mind for you then think that you have the ability to comment objectively??

      This is entirely the problem....

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