Brits on benefits: 'Dole office site only works on PCs over 10 YEARS OLD'

Benefits claimants signing up for disability living allowance online are told they cannot use modern browsers, smartphones or even Macs. The Department for Work and Pensions' microsite - available at www.dwp.gov.uk/eservice - states that folks should use it for claiming attendance allowance, disability living allowance and …

[John Savard]

Question

Although it's an old site, are you quite sure it doesn't work with a current version of Firefox?

Of course, they should have designed it to work on Mosaic - then it would work on any browser, not using any special browser features.

[This Side Up]

Re: Question

Well at least it does work with some browsers over 10 years old. It's not difficult to design a web site which will work with any browser, though maybe Mosaic that doesn't even support tables would make things a bit difficult. For that matter does it do forms?

Anyway I'd rather have a straightforward web site that works with any browser and platform (and isn't specially tailored to IE6 on Win95) than one stuffed with vast amounts of javascript, css and other unnecessary bloat.

[The BigYin]

Re: Question

ParcelForce also blocks certain browsers and OSs for no real reason I can fathom.

Spoof your agent and it works fine.

Idiots.

[Anonymous Custard]

Re: Question

Suddenly the reason for el Reg's recent article on Mosaic becomes clear...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Question

I fully support making it as hard as possible for these scroungers to claim their benefits.

Ideally all web applications should be required to be followed up with forms signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters

[Anonymous Coward]

AC 17:20

So I visit my Dr, who then tells me that I need to take 10 tablets a day fro the rest of my life if I want to stay 'healthy'. Or risk complications if I don't. I am signed off work. That makes me a scrounger? and I am to be denied any money of which I've been paying into the system for decades?

I hope you suffer a stroke, then you can join the roundabout that is the new benefit system. After 3 months with no cash maybe the state will pay for your funeral.

[C-N]

Re: Question

Yeah, yeah, isn't this the way it should be? What are they doing with new computers?

[elderlybloke]

Re: Question

Dear Anon, 17.20 GMT,

I think that your little bit of humour in this discussion is failing, as there appears to be a lot of humourless miserable twits hanging about here.

I am too old for the Dole -what a Bugger.

[Ian Johnston]

Re: Question

It's just the list that's out of date. The site works fine under Chrome.

[M7S]

And none of this new-fangled broadband to overload the webforms neither

28.8k is your limit mate

(A policy helpfully supported by BT around where I live)

[Christoph]

Re: And none of this new-fangled broadband to overload the webforms neither

No, you have to use a connection that is RFC 1149 compliant.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm confused

For one thing, it's not April 1st. For another, the government really aren't that stupid, are they?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: I'm confused

The government might not be, but some of the plebs in public services certainly are.

[alain williams]

Re: I'm confused

Sack them and insist that they can only apply for the dole via the web .... what do you mean you don't have an old browser ... ?

[Vimes]

This doesn't surprise me. I remember doing web development a number of years ago. One of our government customers we were developing for were stuck on Netscape 4 and were steadfastly refusing to upgrade. This was at a time when Firefox was already available.

[Frankee Llonnygog]

Perhaps they spent too long ensuring they had all their Dublin Core meat tags in place and ran out of time to optimise the site. Actually, it looks like reasonably compliant, non-table-based HTML so I'd have thought it would work with modern browsers. On the downside, it appears to be ASP, and they do some silly things like include a link to a JavaScript window popup function inside a noscript tag

[Frankee Llonnygog]

meat tags? I meant meta tags

Anyway, I take it all back. Click on the link to launch the online application and it pops up in a new window entitled, "Sieble eService"

That's the problem, right there. In my very best plumber voice, "Cor blimey mate, who put this in?"

[Frankee Llonnygog]

Re: meat tags? I meant meta tags

Gets worse - you need to register with the Government Gateway. Oh dear, this really isn't very good

[Vimes]

Something else: doesn't the government have certain legal obligations that they have to adhere to where the disability discrimination act - or whatever it's called these days - is concerned? Has something changed in recent years?

[johnnytruant]

Yes they do

As far as I know yes. Under the DDA as I understand it this website is - if as inaccessible as described - illegal.

Companies have been successfully prosecuted for way less than this.

[David Pollard]

Re: Yes they do

Companies have been successfully prosecuted for way less...

Send a tumbrill for IDS.

[Elmer Phud]

Re: Yes they do

We have a nice French Madam to attend to him.

[myarse]

Re: Yes they do

You sure, genuine question, who? Last time I looked into this no one had been prosecuted although many had been threatened.

Not sure how the law is now but the DDA never really mentioned websites, rather services, it was the rather open ended and websites were only talked about by the DRC and even then it was all about an undifined best practice.

[theblackhand]

RE: Disability discrimination act

And if the department is prosecuted for breaking the DDA you know the money that was earmarked for upgrading the site would be used to pay the fine....

I'll go back to reading my copy of the Daily Mail now

[Neil Gardner]

Amd there was me trying renew my claim for disability living allowance on my brand new 15" retina MAcBook Pro with 16 GB RAM. I need all that extra memory so I can run IE6 on a Win XP virtual machine. And that reminds me. I have to renew insurance for the Mercedes SL Class Coupe I bought last year to attend occasional job interviews and impress metrosexual partners. You don't seriously expect me to catch a bus or cycle to the benefits office, do you?

[Hollerith 1]

Do you know anyone on benefits? No, didn't think so

I am sure there are a few bad'uns who have a lovely lifestyle by gaming the system, but most do not. Look at what an average claimant gets and see how far you'd get. Benefit is NOT generous. It is bloody tough. If you have a disability, it's doubly tough. That myth of the dole hog with a merc is just that -- a myth.

[JDX]

Re: Do you know anyone on benefits? No, didn't think so

But the stereotype of the doleite who can afford Sky, fags, booze and a PS3 is very much true.

If you're on benefits, how do you even afford a smartphone?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Do you know anyone on benefits? No, didn't think so

Because you might have bought your smartphone or iMac a while back but found yourself disabled, with a chronic illness or unemployed. I know it's hard to believe in the current Wirtschaftswunder, but people lose their jobs and are entitled to benefits.

[Anonymous Coward]

@Neil Gardner

I am on DLA and I don't own a car (never have, and don't believe I'll ever have enough money to get one and afford running costs), or a smartphone, or a computer with a retina display let alone a PC with 16GB ram. Benefits money does not make me rich or give me a life of luxury, it gives me just enough to live by, well 'exist'.

So shut the hell up you ignorant stereotypical Daily Fail 'reader' who is unable to determine their own conclusions from actually interacting with many people who genuinely claim DLA instead of regurgitating complete bollocks thrown around by people who feel hard done by that others who are incapable of working get a state benefit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem?

What's the problem? Surely no unemployed benefit claimant will have a new or modern computer anyway? They certainly can't afford the latest smartphones either. Don't they have to "make do and mend" and purchase from second hand shops?

I'm a self employed company director and all three computers in fornt of me at the moment are over 8 years old, as is the laser printer, and my phone is about 4 or 5 years old. I can't afford or need to replace any of those devices as they are all still perfectly functional.....

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Problem?

I believe modern installations of Linux cost the same as old ones. Surely even a benefit claimant (is that how you spell scrounger?) can afford that....

I'm a highly paid government official working in the DWP.

[TheVogon]

Re: Problem?

"I believe modern installations of Linux cost the same as old ones"

Ye, they cost lots of time. I guess at least dole claimant might have some of that available....

[Mephistro]

Re: Problem? (@ AC, Posted Tuesday 30th April 2013 13:16 GMT)

"I believe modern installations of Linux cost the same as old ones"

You're wrong there. The price of Linux installation as been raised a 70% to compensate for inflation.

[sugerbear]

Re: Problem?

[quote]I'm a self employed company director...[/quote]

or your full title... Powerfully built tax dodger.

[JDX]

Re: Problem?

Yeah, loads of benefits claimants know about Linux.

[sabroni]

@JDX Yeah, loads of benefits claimants know about Linux.

Why shouldn't people on benefits know about Linux? Are you being a pompous dick?

[ducatis'r us]

Re: Problem?

Read the article. This is not about unemployed benefit claimants, doleites scroungers or whatever derogatory label you might like to employ but is about Disability Living allowance, which can only be claimed if you have severe mobility problems or care requirements. I have not seen the website but the paper form was about 50 pages long. My wife received DLA for several months before her death last year. Dying many years before qualifying for a pension, in common with many DLA recipients, means that she saved HMG thousands of pounds so i find any implication of 'scrounging' etc pretty offensive

[HelenaHandcart]

Re: Problem?

The claimants may not own computers of any kind but the ones in the public library are likely to be no more than a couple of years old.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unhelpful language

I find your language unhelpful here. "Dole Office" in particular. The benefits in question are disability and pension related, nothing to do with unemployment and dole, which makes up only 3% of the welfare budget anyway. At a time when government ministers and tabloid papers are going all out to spread propaganda against benefits you need to watch how you present them.

[Wim Ton]

CYA?

Maybe they did not have time to test the modern browsers and cover themselves againts complaints?

Like putting the warning "contains nuts" on a bag of peanuts...

[Richard Jones 1]

Re:That Warning about peanuts in peanuts in peanut packets

Several hundred packets of monkey nuts, alias peanuts had to be withdrawn in case customers were too stupid to realise that peanut packets might indeed contain peanuts - but presumably no horse meat?

[Thecowking]

Re: Re:That Warning about peanuts in peanuts in peanut packets

In all fairness, peanuts aren't nuts.

So they don't contain nuts.

[Loyal Commenter]

Re: Re:That Warning about peanuts in peanuts in peanut packets

Furthermore, it is quite possible to have a nut allergy, but not an allergy to peanuts, which are actually legumes (like peas and beans, hence the name). If they are produced in a factory that also handles actual nuts, such as walnuts, then it is perfectly sensible for there to be a warning on the packet of peanuts stating it may contain nuts, so that nut allergy sufferers don't eat them and die.

So, the warning about nuts in peanut packets isn't about peanuts in peanut packets, which would be stupid, but only seems stupid because you are ignorant, and is actually there to save people's lives.

[Michael Dunn]

Re: CYA?

Strictly speaking, peanuts are not nuts, but a form of legume.

[a cynic writes...]

Obsolete text on obsolescent website not updated!

The site's from 2009...at least that's what the pop-up says when you hit the "Crown Copyright" link.

If you were to try and "Launch services and benefits online" with a modern browser (Chrome 26.0.1410.64 say) then a pop up would appear allowing you to claim services and benefits online.

I realise that's not the disaster we'd been banking on. Ah well.

[sabroni]

Re: I realise that's not the disaster we'd been banking on.

Disaster, Banking. On a story about benefits! Ha ha, like it, very droll.

Of course, a form appearing is all it needs to do....

Bloody lefty propaganda, eh? Even the logos red! It's like the fucking bbc round here!!!!!!!

[Pookietoo]

Re: a pop up would appear allowing you to claim services and benefits online

Did you go through the whole process? Because the warning is not that it will not work at all with some software, but that it will not work in a complete and correct way.

[a cynic writes...]

Re: a pop up would appear allowing you to claim services and benefits online

No, I'm afraid I didn't.

I had the funny idea that "...I didn't mean to make a fraudulant claim but they said it didn't work on the reg and thought I'd test it" would be much of a defence.

But hey don't let me stop you, feel free.

[sabroni]

Re: don't let me stop you, feel free.

You're the one claiming that it's fine on a modern browser. Do you now concede that you have no idea whether the site works in Chrome?

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you heard about the IT skills shortage?

It's no wonder they can't find an unemployed Web Developer to update it.

[Dave 15]

skills shortage... what in India?

We are talking about the UK government, theres no way on Gods clean earth they would spend the money in the UK, so they must be suffering from a skills shortage in India or similar

[Anonymous Coward]

IT Skills? India?

That is a great joke :-D

[Haku]

10 year old browsers needed for a 9 year old website - whodatthunkit?

They started noticing 'modern' browsers wouldn't work on the site back in 2006, yet haven't taken steps to resolve this. Well they technically they have, they've been telling everyone to use older browsers...

http://web.archive.org/web/20060427043739/http://www.dwp.gov.uk/eservice/need.asp

[Anonymous Coward]

"How come people on benefits can afford a bright shiny new Mac?"

Quite a lot of people on benefits were previously working before losing their job or becoming sick or disabled, and already had modern computers. Others are given computers by family, sometimes even new computers.

[Anonymous Coward]

How come people on benefits....

God it must be lush to know that your job is secure for life. Or you're just deluded and don't realise quite how crap the economy is atm...

[nuked]

What absolute shower of drooling retards is responsible for this, and why are any of them still employed?

[Shasta McNasty]

The Reason...

The reason it hasn't been updated is that the government doesn't want to spend the money to update the legacy applications that require IE6 functionality that isn't seamlessly supported in newer browsers.

All users will be eventually ported over to Universal Credit, so they don't see the value in spending money to update the old systems to cope.

It isn't a surprise to them. They've known about this for a VERY long time, but chose to do nothing about it, so expect this to continue until there are no claimants left for this service.

[Anonymous Coward]

This new benefit scheme is bullshit

Rant incoming. Two reasons I find this new benefit scheme bullshit both related to disablility.

My Uncle, used to have lung cancer and heart problems, he couldn't leave his house, he pretty much lived on an oxygen mask. He was told he had to get a job or they'd cut his DLA completely. He couldn't even leave the house, they don't care. He died about two days later because of these problems, and yet they expected him to get a job.

A friend of mine, his mother has degenerative disk disease. She's had several disks in her spine effectively crumble to nothing, she's had her hips replaced twice, she's had her knee replaced, after the knee replacement she then spent several months on antibiotics because the hospital kicked her out without checking for infection. That infection nearly killed her. She cannot leave the house, she cannot walk, she cannot even get up the stairs without assistance. They want her to get a job, or they're cutting her disability... completely.

Absolute fucking bullshit.

Fuck the new disability scheme, and everything associated with it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: This new benefit scheme is bullshit

My wife works on the government Work Programme for just about the only reputable private firm involved with it. They have many people sent to them who were formerly on disability benefits but were then declared fit enough to work by Atos Origin. This includes someone with terminal cancer, another person with such bad breathing difficulties that they cannot climb the stairs in their own home and numerous others with severe mental health problems (manic depression, schizophrenia, etc). The people Atos employ have no medical qualifications, and are encouraged to get as many people off benefits as possible.

The job centre are no better, putting people into low paid work that leaves claimants financially worse off than on the dole, while "forgetting" to tell them what other benefits people can claim to make work worthwhile. In those cases, my wife and her team have to spend time sorting out the benefits such as assistance with travel costs rather than finding work for other claimants.

[Dave Bell]

Re: This new benefit scheme is bullshit

Fuck the new disability scheme, and everything associated with it.

IDS is definitely not my type.

[0765794e08]

Nah... that would be silly

This service doesn’t work with some modern browsers and operating systems. Tell me more...

The service was designed to work with the following operating systems and browsers:

‘Browser v1’ on the NeXT computer.

The NeXT computer currently resides in a cabinet outside Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s old office at the European Organisation for Nuclear Research (Cern) in Switzerland. I’m sure if you ask nicely they will let you use it. Please form an orderly queue.

[davefb]

still?

friend mentioned this a few weeks back. He was saying that the previous site had worked okay on his phone, but the new one they'd been telling him to use wouldn't work and yet was required in order for you to get your money.

Are we in a book by khafka ?

[The BigYin]

Non-story?

So....is this a legacy site then? Does it matter that it doesn't support modern stuff then?

[ForthIsNotDead]

What?

They shouldn't have fricking TIME to post on Twatter or whatever. They shouldn't be able to afford it. They should be out looking for a freaking JOB.

[localzuk]

Re: What?

Disability benefits ARE NOT JOBLESS BENEFITS.

How hard is that to understand. One keeps people alive who can't work, the other keeps people going who can't find a job.

[LinkOfHyrule]

Re: What?

Well some people are pretty ignorant and do not realise that Disability Living Allowance is the one that pays for crutches, incontinent pants, transport, mobility aides and other essentials disabled people need so that they can get to and from their jobs!

For those who don't know it was Incapacity Benefit that people who cannot work due to illness could claim. DLA is completely separate and also has a minuscule fraud rate. The people trying to use this dumb website could be doing so from their work computer during lunch, but obviously they are not civil servants 'cus they are actually using a modern browser unlike these dole office jokers!

Paris because she actually has made dubious claims in one shape or another!

[Anonymous Coward]

Incap fraud rate was 0.7%

DLA had about 0.5% and is often paid to folk IN work to help them keep their jobs.

Incapacity was paid to those to ill to work.

the fraud rate was miniscule. Despite the lies told by ministers and news paprrs, UK benefits are hard to get and far from generous

[Martin 71]

Re: What?

You can go procreate with yourself. Yes, i rose to the troll. Now sod off. I hope to hell you never end up on disability because you CAN'T work, because unlike you, I'm not a selfish little richard cranium

[Iain Griffiths]

Ah, they're using Siebel .

All makes sense now - probably something like 6.3 or 7.0.

Hell even 7.7 there was a 18 month wait for a patch for IE7.

Problem is based on originally using MS's Java VM, which was broken. Then using ActiveX's to give all the bells and whistles.

[Anonymous Coward]

HMRC

Has anybody tried to add a note on the Self Assessment form?

You type happily away and then find out that carriage returns are not allowed.

So then try copy/paste into a text editor , strip out the CRs and paste back. Nope it won't work.

You are also not allowed to put "0" (zero) into any field but leave it blank instead.

Having not read the small print, I ended up putting random amounts into the boxes that were giving errors.

Who the hell wrote this crap?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: HMRC

The same idiot that wrote the bit that says to access Her Majesties Robbers and Crooks website via the Guberment Goatway, enter username and password, then it redirects you to the real Her Majesties Robbers and Crooks website where you have to enter, wait for, the same username and password.

[TheMidnighToker]

Re: HMRC

The double auth thing is annoying, but it's nothing compared to actually trying to submit accounts via their C600 interactive PDF nightmare :(

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: HMRC

Yup, the CT600 is horrendous, seems to change every year, so I alter my account categories to match for next year, and they change again!

Its really a mess!

[J.G.Harston]

Re: HMRC

% not allowed , so stops me entering 40% of this income is mine

- is not allowed, so stops me entering my address as 20-22 Main Street

£ not allows (WTF???), so stops me entering the first £500 is carried from last year.

( ) not allowed

: not allowed

; not allowed

Plus the fact that I have to try and remember a password I last used TWELVE MONTHS AGO! I've ended up doing my returns in August so I can do a paper submission.

[Gandhu]

Re: HMRC

Could the lack of special character support be preventing SQL injection vulnerabilities here?

[Crisp]

That is a shockingly bad site

And completely what I've come to expect from the UK government when it comes to technology.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: That is a shockingly bad site

Not just the government, only a year ago I was doing some development work for a large UK bank, and they STILL had IE6! I was quite shocked how primitive everything was (glad it was a short contract!)

[Chelseascum]

News

To be fair, Private Eye flagged this up about 3 issues ago - so around a month and a half ago. Nice to see Government has responded to their criticism of their circa 1993 system.

[Al fazed]

Well

Since any would be Claimant without a PC and connection to the Internet would be pointed in the direction of the local library where they can do these things for free.

AND

Since the libraries I know are still running Windows 2000 and IE6, they shouldn't have a problem, right.

Did someone mention security ?

Didn't think so !

[J.G.Harston]

Re: Well

Public libraries - ooo, I remember them, swept away in the last lot of cuts.

[Roland6]

I knew there was a reason why I should of kept those old MS install disks...

Perhaps DWP have done a deal with MS and we will be seeing cloud services offering legacy browser access to government systems...

[Elmer Phud]

Users

There have been discussions elsewhere between prospective users of the system.

Staff don't know how to use it,

For some people it could take a long time to find info they need but were not made aware of and that leads to time-outs - one wonders where it's actually timed out.

There is no 'save current position' so it's start again.

Many people the system is aimed at cannot use it, either through a disability with using a keyboard or, better still, those who are visually impaired are unable to use either of a pair of popular screen-readers.

Is this another bloody ATOS stitch up?

If you can use the system then you are disqualified anyway.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure what the problem is here. Seems to run fine on my phone even.

Or is the problem just that is says it may not run on 'modern' stuff - but actually does fine....

[Anonymous Coward]

Charge the IT director with taking money under false pretences

The head of IT was definitely asleep at the wheel. In fact, it almost looks like deliberate sabotage!

It takes a lot to be that far behind. Maybe this is one of those billion-pound IBM mainframe deals that only works on fixed configurations.

[Anonymous Coward]

10yr old computer? Not true

You don't need a 10yr old computer. You can use a VM for that you know.

We do this for a website we need to access that requires Netscape 4.7.

[xyz]

yeah, well I went on Adobes's site the other week...

...using IE10 and I was told it wasn't a supported browser as it was too old. Curb the jokes people. Once I'd got on with FF and bought something, I was emailed, telling me that I'd have to wait 24 hours for the order to be approved. I phoned them up and laughed about it still being 1998 in Adobe land. You have to wonder WTF is going on with that bunch.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm surpised they didn't try to use an Active X control

[J.G.Harston]

Simple fix. Get rd of all the scripting that says

if browser.version < 6 then crash

if browser.name != iexplore then crash

if hostos != windows then crash

etc.

You should just bloody well serve the content and not care what is asking for the content. It's the USER who specifies what's going to happen to the content, *NOT* the author.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Neither is the site compatible with smartphones - or any Internet Explorer installation more modern than version 6, released back in the heady days of 2001."

This is by design. They are seeing if you really need the assistance. If you are using a smartphone, then your priorities are messed up as you clearly have money to spend on fruitless items. The same can be said for a more modern PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have an Alienware PC, it was bought for me, for my birthday two years ago, by my best friend, when my Thinkpad 570E finally died and was unrepairable.

So, by your logic, because I have a very good friend who spent a substantial chunk of his own savings, to bring my computer up to date, and even futureproof it somewhat, that disqualifies me from making any claims?

[david 12]

Javascript

My browser isn't new enought. That site requires javascript.

Ok, changing to my other browser, I see that the problem is that IE7+ uses a more aggressive caching algorithm, and the site doesn't server up modified URLs -- it depends on javascript making repeated requests for dynamic data. This was optimised out of later browsers, to make slow websites run faster.

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG, THIS is how the retards WASTE our money. By uilding crappy sites that only work if you happen to use a computer as old and shite as the ones they provide for their staff.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is somewhat true.

The default browser is IE 6 (I checked today). They let us have Firefox not so long ago but if you try to browse the intranet with it, you get a message telling you to use IE.

The boxes use Pentium 4 (HT) processors, although they are in the process of being upgraded.

[Serif]

IP Address Space

This is the same Department of Work and Pensions that have 51.0.0.0/8 (all 16777216 addresses in it) allocated for their use. Good to know that there are plenty of IPv4 addresses left for anyone who wants one and that organisations still living in the IT equivalent of the stone age aren't hoarding them.

[veggiesosage]

I did manage to submit an online claim for DLA in, I think, 2009, using Vista and the current version of Firefox. So in reality it's probably not as bad as it sounds.

However, it probably puts plenty of people off trying which can't be...oh.