'You can keep it' - Brit's nicked laptop turns up on Iranians' sofa A British animator who used tracking software to trace his stolen laptop to Iran has apologised to its “innocent new owners” after pictures of them were splashed all over the internet. Dom Del Torto's Macbook Pro was nicked from his London flat in February and he was able to watch its 3,000 mile odyssey to the Islamic Republic …
"Why should their identities be protected? I applaud him showing those pictures."
Well, I bet you'll be just as pleased as your personal data is made available to the world, as soon as you installed that hard drive bought on ebay or amazon.com
oh, wait, but you HAVE carried out thorough investigation about those scumbag Iranian stolen-goods buyers, and, as you are both a judge and a jury, you're beyond reasonable doubt about thee fact they knew it was stolen goods. Since you're so good at doing policing and sentencing, how about a little surgical chop-chop job, to remove their front limbs? After all, you just KNOW they're guilty and deserve it, don't you.
No, it is not necessarily a crime. There has to be some sort of guilty knowledge or intent
The offence is created by section 22(1) of the Theft Act 1968 which says
A person handles stolen goods if (otherwise than in the course of stealing), knowing or believing them to be stolen goods he dishonestly receives the goods, or dishonestly undertakes or assists in their retention, removal, disposal or realisation by or for the benefit of another person, or if he arranges to do so.
Of course in this case UK law is not relevant and it is Iranian law thay must be considered.
You know what is also illegal? Making false statements accusing people without having any proof to back up the accusations.
For all they know, they bought a second hand device. Because they are innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is with you, the accuser. Since you don't have any proof, you're falsely accusing people. And that my friend, is illegal.
You're luck they probably won't press charges.
It's still up on the Daily Wail, un-blurred and not mentioning the bit with Dom being extremely generous after being contacted by them.
Well, that's the rub, isn't it?
On the one hand, if it was nicked it was probably stolen for a fair bit less than brand new pricing (though still more than a nicked laptop without a glowing fruit on the back). So there'd probably be an element of "This is surprisingly cheap" at play.
On the other hand, we don't know whether they bought straight from someone wearing a balaclava, black & white stripey jumper who was carrying the MBP in a burlap sack with "SWAG" written on it, or whether they bought it from the nth person in a chain with only the first person involved having direct contact with the thief.
Still handling stolen goods, I suppose, but not to the same extent.
As there are sanctions on Iran - sanctions we put there - there's no reason to think the people bought this for cheap. Even in a market selling new & used goods.
We're not in Kansas no more, Toto - Kansas' lily white rules no longer apply in much of the real world, though in the safety of the US/UK we often don't get to see the rough and tumble others live with.
But as the US/UK have caused this family and similar untold costs and hardships, are we sure the reason for our sanctions are correct? Or is our black-and-white world a bit 1950's? Through our Windows darkly...
... and then whined when the rightful owner showed them to the world! Rightful Owner must be stinkin' rich AND brain dead, to not worry about his laptop and all it's contents being on the other side of the world. Can MacBooks Auto-Nuke themselves like iPhones?
Fuck 'em and feed 'em Fish Heads!
yep, you can remote wipe a Mac just like you can remote wipe an iPhone with the Find My Mac/iPhone app as applicable.
Then again, if the hidden cam app is working, presumably he's already been able to remote connect / ssh into the machine and retrieve / delete whatever data he deems sensitive
"which beams the laptop's location back to its owner along with desktop screenshots and pictures from the built-in camera"
While it travels? Ok, any explanation of how that is supposed to work? Does it sniff out open WiFi? Does it have built-in GSM?
From what I've seen of other similar software, it can configure the camera to take snapshots at regular intervals and upload them to a predetermined location. It also seeks out any available networks (either private ones to which access is provided, or public networks) for uploading info.
So yes, it depends on network access being available, but given the likelihood of such equipment being reused after the theft, it's not a terrible idea. Worst case scenario, your stolen shiny remains stolen.
Aren't you all rather assuming that these people in a different country knew it was stolen? Fuck knows how many hands it passed through, but it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that the tea-leaf in London personally handed it to this Iranian punter down some shady street. Who knows, it might have turned up in a local 2nd-hand shop there.
But yeah.. you feel free to hang them anyway. Y'know.. just in case...
Ever been in a second-hand shop in this country? Positive nothing in there has been nicked and passed-off?
It is illegal for Apple to sell into Iran, but who says it's illegal under Iranian law to import a second-hand Apple laptop into Iran? I would guess it almost certainly isn't. Why would Iran create such a law?
There is no reason to suppose that the people who currently have the laptop have broken any Iranian law.
If they lived in England there would be no reason to suppose that they had broken any English law. As I understand it, it is not a crime to unsuspectingly receive stolen property, though you do have to return it to the rightful owner when it is established who the rightful owner is. If you bought the stolen goods from a reputable second-hand shop then the shop should then give you your money back, and they can in turn go and complain to whoever sold it to them, etc, etc. Usually this chain does not go back as far as the thief as someone along the line is (claimed to be) the proverbial bloke in a pub.
Apple products can't be sold in Iran because of American law, I doubt there is an Iranian law against it.
Contrary to what some Merkins beleive, Merkin law doesn't apply outside Merkia
IIRC, back in the day before Murdoch owned the UK government, some people got off on a charge of selling hacked sat keycards because the channel wasn't legally available in the UK - therefore they hadn't defrauded anyone of anything
American technology companies doing business outside of the USA cannot undermine US government embargoes; they cannot knowingly sell to entities or individuals who intend to use it in embargoed states, or resell or export to those who will. That is a case of American law applying outside America, albeit to an American company. Apple, Dell, Citrix, etc., can suffer sanction from the US government (http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/dont_let_this_happen_to_you_2005.pdf ).
UK companies don't have to follow the US laws and certainly the Iranians don't either, but the American ones do.
Yes, the US and EU have put sanctions on against the Iranian government, because the Iranians are refining 20% uranium, which someday could somehow turn into 90% weapons grade if they get it down.
So they bought it in a black market stall where all the illegal, stolen and grey channel goods come. How bad of them.
http://www.geekosystem.com/iran-apple-sanctions/
Almost as bad as the US/UK invading Iraq on trumped up charges, or the US/UK overthrowing Iran's democratically elected leader Mossadegh in the 1950's, to put in a more compliant Shah.
Got any more tsk tsk tsking to do?
i wonder where his insurance claim stands here.
if he's already received cash/replacement, then would it be fraud to have taken back the laptop when it was offered?
Or, as he has refused the laptop when it was offered to him, does that invalidate any possible insurance claim for the theft?
To all the lazy Daily Mail readers here who have the internet at their fingertips but still base their legal knowledge on pub talk
Under UK law, it's not inherently a crime to receive something that is stolen. It's a crime to receive stolen goods if you know or it would be reasonable to believe they are stolen.
Shut up with your pub talk legal nonsense.
Bought off dodgy bloke down the pub/souk? Check.
Boxed? Nope. Manuals? Nope. Original charger? Nope. Provenance? Nope. Cheap? Oh yes.
It's 99% certain to be nicked. Zero defence.
Your pics all over the web? Priceless.
To all the lazy Daily Mail readers here who have the internet at their fingertips but still base their legal knowledge on pub talk. Under UK law, it's not inherently a crime to receive stolen goods. It's a crime to receive goods with the knowledge that they are stolen, or if it is reasonable to believe they are stolen.
Quite, quite different.
To all the lazy Daily Mail readers here who have the internet at their fingertips but still base their legal knowledge on pub talk. Under UK law, it's not inherently a crime to receive stolen goods. It's a crime to receive goods with the knowledge that they are stolen, or if it is reasonable to believe they are stolen.
Quite, quite different.
yeah but the woman is in Iran so the Daily Mail know she can't sue them and so by media logic she therefore has no rights and the Daily Mail has no responsibilities. They'd never risk implying she was a thief and post her photo and home address if she lived in the UK.
This is actually a good reveal of what the media would be like in the UK without regulation if they thought they could get away with it.
I thought they had 'a great persian firewall' or something? Yet this tracking app managed to get through - thus revealing a perfect way to bypass the firewall.
I'd like to bet the people in the photo were not actually scared of being labelled as handler's of stolen property at all - but instead did not want to be identified as being responsible for showing a method of getting comms out of the country.
Perhaps there is no great persian firewall - dunno.
Reading the comments here reminds me why I stopped reading The Register. You are a bunch of blinkered, bloody-minded, knee-jerk, off-with-their-heads man-boys, the lot of you.
Seriously, how is "they are handling stolen goods, therefore they deserve to be shamed, internationally" a nuanced, adult response to this story?
Feel free to downvote this comment into oblivion.
(without realising that the more of you do so, the better, frankly)
"Where's the thieve hating bit of the site? I seem to be stuck in the tech. half...."
I sodding hate thieves. I had some chap (ooh, and he sounded foreign too) give me a stolen card over the phone for £500 worth of stuff yesterday, and I'd happily strangle him if I could get my hands on him.
But I'm not going to go a witch hunt for the ultimate recipient of an item that was stolen thousands of miles away from them. Its ridiculous.
It is a bit odd - while El Reg has its fair share of idiots, I've never seen anything as bad as the ignorance displayed in some of these comments by quite a wide margin.
It's British people talking about potentially dodgy action taken by people who are a) foreign and b) of the type that might be described by our prince as "a bit dusky". What reaction were you expecting from Britain, exactly?
You must be one of those hard-of-thinking types that throws out packaging after expensive purchases. Ensuring that
* if you ever need to claim on the warranty you will be unable to package it properly
* if you ever move it is likely to get damaged
* if you ever want to sell it you will lose value
I suppose you must live in a 6x3' flat like Bender from Futurama but without the extra storage facilities. I have heard such things might exist in that horrible place called "Landen".
(Where I come from we pronounce words as per the vowels they are actually written with)
It hasn't been wiped or else the tracking app would not be running - they must have logged on to the existing build/config. So either no security set or the security was hacked - bad in either case. Don't know which but even the least techy person uses full hard disk encryption these days on laptops.
Yes but even a root kit needs an OS doesn't it - and wiping partitions and starting again gets rid of most (if not all) rootkits - [he says, awaiting the 'rootkit in BIOS' comments]. I still reckon it hadn't been rebuilt and that there was no full disk encryption (probably no pw either) - crazy fool.
Mind you, we'd have no story else - and no rampant arguments/comments about whether or not they are thieves and should have their hands cut off, or innocent paupers who find themselves in receipt of stolen property (probably somewhere in-between in reality). :-)
Yes.
Everybody I know uses full disk encryption - even the least techy. It is not longer a 'techy only' thing, is my point.
So - as I said - even the least techy use full encryption these days. The statement is true.
What I didn't say is that 'every' non-techy does - which is what I think you are implying.
Better?
So either no security set or the security was hacked - bad in either case. Don't know which but even the least techy person uses full hard disk encryption these days on laptops.
.. later ..
What I didn't say is that 'every' non-techy does - which is what I think you are implying.
English isn't your strong point, I take it.
It's certainly not one of ours is it.
Statement - "Even posh people catch the tube in London these days"
Does not mean - "Every posh person catches the tube these days"
See the difference?
So when some middle-class person says 'I don't use the tube...' the response of 'even the posh do these days' is not valid to make a point that this is not exclusively used by the lower classes? In the same way the fact that 'even non-techies use full disk encryption" is equally a valid, and true, comment.
Talk about comprehension failure.
The least 'techy' person does not use encryption. The least 'techy' person you know uses encryption just means that you know a lot of technology aware people. I don't know anyone who uses encryption on their home computer even the most 'techy'. The least 'techy' person I know regularly presses the WiFi button on their computer in an attempt to turn it off and then wonders why the internet doesn't work next time the machine is switched on; they haven't considered encryption...
The additional point is that even if everyone you know does use a feature such as encryption it doesn't mean everyone else does. An encrypted machine is definitely a techy thing to have.
This post has been deleted by its author
Oh if only he wasn't a British citizen and completely free of obligation to adhere to US laws...
Until he changes planes at a US Airport and finds himself magically whisked off to a sunny location to be imprisoned and tortured....
Well that the laptop wa stolen is not in dispute, and the relative cost to the insurer for of recovery of said laptop may well exceed the cost of a replacement (although being an Apple product, a return flight to Iran might well end up cheaper!).
I don't think his insurer would stretch its resources as far as liasing with Iranian police forces to retrieve it.
And probably did.
It's not worth their hassle to get it back, and it looks better PR-wise to say "Ok, keep it" anyway.
Although the new owners may well be in trouble with the Iranian authorities, as it would not surprise me if handling stolen goods was a strict liability offence over there, unlike in the UK.
A few points:
In a lot of parts of the Middle East, the internet is cheap, the average wage and cost of living are a fraction of what it is in the West, so things like internet, electricity, etc are priced accordingly. Calling it "broadband" in some Middle Eastern countries is generous, and the electricity has a habit of cutting out at times, but it's servicable.
Apple products are everywhere, they are more of a status symbol over there in part because of the fact they cost more than some people earn in 6 months (if they could buy them through legitimate ways) and that they are supposed to be banned. There are whole chains of shops that sell and service Apple products, they are all imported/smuggled through dodgy channels, so nobody even cares what keyboard layout it has, as long as it's shiny and they can sit in their knock-off Starbucks-like coffee house and look fashionable and rich.
Pass my coat, yeah the one with the passport in the pocket with stamps that will prove "popular" with immigration if I ever go to American on holiday.
I wonder how his insurance company view his generosity? When you consider how reluctant Insurers can be to part with cash after a claim, would they feel that by refusing the offer of a return of the stolen item he has not taken all possible steps to mitigate their loss as insurers?
Its a technicality I know - but then insurance seems to thrive on technicalities.
The point is that after receiving a payout, surely any items later located are the property of the insurers - and no longer the property of the insured to make generous decisions about.
Just curious.... any insurers reading this?
Would it be "generosity" if some Good Italian Family Businessman "contacted" the victim after being outed? Or would the Internet call it like it is?
Like all those "edgy" Comedy Central guys, dropping trou the second someone of the Desert Sand Religion gets offended. Best to keep bullying the fat kid who won't behead you or blow up your house.
The Iranians must have been up to no good to have a stolen computer, so they deserve no sympathy at all. Just shame them, trace them, and make them return the computer or keep them paying for their direct or indirect crime.
Physical property is worth far more than any suggestions of (bogus) copyright, they lost any right to privacy when the were involved in or benefited from the theft of the property containing the camera; they were damned cheeky to object to the owner posting their images on the net, when they took the owner's camera where they are; WTF!
If the recipients knew they were receiving stolen goods, then they're guilty. They claim they didn't, and there's no way to prove otherwise, however they have offered to return the stolen goods, so it seems like they're acting in good faith, but that might be more about remorse that they were caught and publicly exposed than wishing to do right. We'll probably never know.
One thing for sure is the punishment for theft in Iran is severe, if the perpetrators are ever caught (in Iran). Perhaps the new "owners" are mindful of that, and don't wish to see any harm come to whoever it is supplied them with the stolen goods (a friend or relative), or maybe they're scared of reprisals (professional criminals).
Either way, I don't think I'd be apologising to the recipients, just because I exercised the only means I had at my disposal to recover my stolen property. If the recipients really are victims, then they're victims of the thieves, not the owner. I certainly wouldn't offer to let them keep my property, just because I sympathised with their situation, especially as the truth of that situation is largely unproven.
My wallet was stolen last year, it contained a large number of banknotes from several countries. Would all the upstandingly moral readers of El Reg please return to me any banknotes in their possesion that they are not absolutely sure have never been stolen.
You can send the banknotes to me via El Reg. Please arrange for the parcel(s) to arrive on a Friday to simplify the workload for El Reg staff.
Uffish babbled:
"Would all the upstandingly moral readers of El Reg please return to me any banknotes in their possesion that they are not absolutely sure have never been stolen."
So many logical fallacies in your, ahem, argument I don't know where to start.
The victim in this case can prove that the laptop is his. It should be returned. What an absolute wimp he is for allowing them to keep it because they were embarrassed by the fact they were in possession of a stolen laptop was blasted to the net.
You cannot prove which banknotes are yours. You *did* manage to prove something however, and I'll leave as an exercise for the reader to figure out what...
Ok, for the dull witted:
It is possible that some of the banknotes in your wallet were stolen at some time - in which case you are in possession of stolen goods. This doesn't worry me and I agree it shouldn't worry you.
Someone in Iran bought a pre-owned computer - should he do due dilligence checks? Like hell he should.
The original owner seems like a nice guy.
Anyway - Uffish shrugged.
Forget due dilligence, that has nothing to do with this case, he found out it was stolen. With that knowledge comes a responsibility to return it.
Since your banknotes for all intents and purposes, are untraceable your analogy is comparing apples to dogs. Totally unrelated and completely irrelevant.
You find out you have a stolen laptop in your possession, you either do the right thing or you don't.
A quick trawl of the internet suggests that under Islamic law if you find out an item you have purchased is stolen then you must return it to the seller and attempt to recover your money. Keeping it is not an option as the sale is considered an invalid transaction. It doesn't matter if he told them they can keep it as they are obliged to return it as it was not the sellers to originally sell.
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As Ahmadinejad prepares to leave office, perhaps a few can read the background to US/UK sanctions on Iran and hope that our typical over-the-top meddling that affects the average person will decline, just as I hope they get someone less irascible and monkey-like than Ahmadinejad, who kind of like Kruschev is not as bad as his boorish activity in front of the camera makes you think. (In fact, Kruschev was one of the great under-appreciated leaders of all time - Ahmedinejad not so much but still not satan)
http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/presidential-reformist-jahanpour.html
Meanwhile, common folk suffer from our globetrotting & unilateral actions.
As Ahmadinejad prepares to leave office...
What's Ahmadinejad got to do with this story? Are you saying it's his fault Iranians can't buy Macbooks through legitimate channels, forcing people to buy stolen laptops from the UK? Iranian resellers have no problems getting their hand on Apple machines from other non-embargoed countries in the region, so don't kid yourself.
Not everything's a conspiracy - some people are just dodgy bastards who don't mind buying a stolen laptop when they should really just walk away... Simples.
You've got no effing clue what it takes to buy a Mac of any sort in Iran under our sanctions, so grow up, realize there are other countries with different political & economic systems, and perhaps take some responsibility for what your government does in its day-to-day idiocy that affects others much more than you. Then maybe come back and be a bit judgemental
PS - Iraq called - they want their blasted apart infrastructure back
PPS - Iran might have had a democracy by now if it hadn't been George Bush's Axis of Evil driving them further from the EU and greater openness. Blair the Poodle less involved in that travesty. But yes, it has somethng to do with this story, as oil-rich Iran should have an Apple store in Tehran, and not a flighty bunch of stalls to buy gear out of. Okay, to be fair - Khomeinei & Shah equally to blame, but then we put the Shah in power, didn't we? Bad business, all of it. Now shop, bitchez, and quit your bitching. The owner's not whinging, just the rest of you sad lot.
You've got no effing clue what it takes to buy a Mac of any sort in Iran under our sanctions, so grow up, realize there are other countries with different political & economic systems, and perhaps take some responsibility for what your government does in its day-to-day idiocy that affects others much more than you. Then maybe come back and be a bit judgemental
Do you even know what country I live in, let alone what "my" government's stance on Iran is?
You can't justify stealing or fencing a computer by saying that
* you're poor
* you've got a shit life
* your parents didn't hug you enough as a child
* you're ruled by a despot and can't have nice things because the USA won't sell them to you.
* you were dropped on your head as a baby, and now you're an sociopath
It's funny that I don't see you comdemn the act of stealing in any of your posts...
BTW, I don't believe you live in Iran, given the comment you made in another post:
Amazing - people seem to not understand that Iran has a repressive government, and import/purchase of these devices is not allowed.
The Iranian government doesn't prevent people buying Apple, Dell or anything else. RadanMac is probably the biggest seller of Apple gear in Iran, and sells to banks and government departments as well as the public...
I condemn the act of stealing, but likely a good chunk of computers showing up in Iran are just used, just as there's a fairly big market for legal used German cars in East Europe along with stolen ones. And it's easier to track stolen cars than computers.
Since we haven't a clue where these people bought the computer, all the assumptions that they simply had to have known it was stolen is simply shite.
And yes, there may be new Macs sold, and it may be that as sanctions tighten and the currency devalues, most people can't or won't afford a new machine. (I didn't find exact figures on RadanMac, but when they quote "installed 4000 machines myself" from the owner over 15 years, doesn't sound like business is that big.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In recent months, Afghah said, Apple Iran has seen sales decline because of tough new sanctions imposed by the U.S. and its allies against Iran's financial sector. The new measures have caused Iran's currency, the rial, to plummet and made international payments from Iranian banks much more complex.
The company relies on a steady stream of creative individuals - including musicians, film editors and photographers - to keep its business going.
...
The focus of the sanctions has been on Iran's banks and oil industry, Iranian individuals and companies that Western capitals believe are assisting what they suspect is Tehran's drive towards a nuclear weapons capability.
But U.S. consumer products and computer equipment are another matter. Although they are banned, enterprising Iranian merchants continue to source them through underground trade routes in the Middle East and beyond.
...
Once considered rare and sought-after, iPhones and iPads are now de rigueur in Iran among those who can afford them. The epicenter of the trade is Tehran's largest technology mall, the bustling Capital Computer Complex, where more than 350 traders supply products for Iran's increasingly tech-savvy population.
One of RadanMac's competitors is a smaller firm called Apple Iran. Its website is a nearly exact replica of Apple's own, except for the Persian language and a disclaimer: "This website is not in anyway affiliated with Apple Inc." Apple has been attempting to shut it down, according to a person familiar with the matter."
Then again, the new "owners" quite possibly had the laptop shipped directly to them by the thief (a family member?) and thus know exactly where this mug lives, so who knows what convinced him to hand over his property and take down their photographs...
I'll be very surprised if he doesn't get turned over again in a few months, now that they know he's a soft touch. Let him restock with goodies, then do him again - but this time disable the spyware in whatever hardware is taken.
How did it get to Iran? What was the path of its journey?
Very Surprised at the final destination of this stolen laptop....... Was it shipped with a ton of other stolen gear in a crate? If so, by who? And what customs paperwork was drawn up? I can't even get an Xbox off Amazon.com shipped from the USA to South America. So how did the actual crims move this stolen loot so inexpensively?
They either bought stolen property, or (possibly) stole it themselves and then went back to Iran eventually with it. I mean, honestly, given this information -- 1) They may not have realized it was stolen (if they bought it at the medina or whatever) and 2) It's not worth going to Iran to get a computer. Given this, and given the victim had the cash to buy an Apple to begin with (and so probably has the cash to buy another), I could see the same actions -- pull the photos and not pursue getitng it back. But to fell BAD about it? Hell no, they received stolen goods which they or the intermediaries didn't even bother to wipe of personal information.
By saying he didn't want his laptop back After no don't claiming on his insurance I think he should be rogered vigorously by the insurance company.
He's also effectively stolen of all you guys as well as his insurance premiums will go up.
I might buy a flat and fill it with aids infested MacBooks, hopefully some of them will find their way to Iran and wipeout some terrorist supporters.
Paris, because she stole my heart.
;-)
that makes it alright then.
More likely they are shitting brix cos the regime will see they are progressive and intelligent, and therefore a visit from the secret police is in order. I think all those haters that want "justice" will have it done, but in "middle-east" style.
One, the receipt of stolen goods - against the law in Britain, don't know about Iran.
Publishing pics and address of people without their express consent - this is a breach of the UK's privacy laws.
Both are likely now invalid since the new 'owners' offered to return it when they discovered it was pilfered and the pic poster has removed the pics from his site. However, the Daily fail still has the pics up so this one may be too late.
p.s.: That Iranian chick is quite fit.
It looks more like a story of some reasonable and compassionate people on both sides of this story. Interesting to see the path of a stolen laptop, and also interesting that he may have made some personal relationships across International boarders! Maybe some more reasonable people like this and our "conflicts" could lighten up.
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