Customers are happier with Win8 touch-
So much that they aren't buying them, so we are dropping the price to make them happier, not to shift the things...
Best Buy will slash $100 off the price of touchscreen Windows 8 PCs. From Monday the US retail chain will cut the cost of Sony, Acer, Toshiba, Dell and HP touch-driven laptops plus two models of Samsung's all-in-ones to shift stock. You can see the full range of discounted gear here. Best Buy’s discount will not apply to …
Are you really too stupid to understand that if something new turns up which people aren't aware of or don't understand, it may not sell even if it's better?
The phrase "barrier to entry" is the issue here. And no I'm not saying Win8 is better or touch-PCs are better. But people have preconceptions or sheer lack of knowledge - the idea of a tablet PC seemed daft pre-iPad.
> the idea of a tablet PC seemed daft pre-iPad.
No. It was the idea of a _Windows_ tablet PC that seemed daft. Windows software, including the OS, was designed to work with keyboard and mouse (with pixel level precision). Intel CPUs required large batteries and cooling, making this compact cost lots of money.
ARM based 'Windows' tablet PC, with no ability to run real Windows programs, still seems daft. Intel may be improving the power usage (but still requires cooling apparently) but these still require a keyboard to be useful so are only sorta tablets.
Let me clarify it for them,
"People that just want to have a big screen to read Facebook, and the occasional news/blog site.... are happier with Windows 8 and a touchscreen." Everyone else in the world would like a big stick and 5 minutes alone with the design team responsible for forcing on the rest of us what some 15 year old thought was a cool interface for their XBOX 4 years ago.
Windows 8 is useless, for almost anyone that isn't using it as a information kiosk. From the removal of needed interfaces, to the nightmare permissions on the Home version, to the UEFI debacle.
Are you really too stupid to understand that if something old turns up which people are aware of and don't want, it may not sell even if it's purportedly incrementally less crap?
The phrase "barrier to entry" is the issue here.
And no I'm not saying Win8 is better or touch-PCs are better. But people have preconceptions or sheer knowledge - the idea of bogging your PC down with nagware, bloatware, virus scanners, viruses, worms, trojans, etc. seems terribly pre-iPad/Android.
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Indeed. Writing this on my brand new Win7 laptop, purchased before the supply of said Win7 laptops dries up completely in favor of MS pushing the Win8 dog down our throats.
It appears Win8 will simply follow the same Microsoft release profile pattern for their OS since Windows 3.1:
first release of new OS with new UI - a dog
second release of OS with same UI - 'fix-it' pack of first release, everything actually works as it should
Some of this is simply that MS makes a dramatic change in driver structure, without granting third-party manufacturers enough time to catch up, and the lack of drivers dooms the first release. Or, possibly and conversely, MS simply (and constantly) fails to acknowledge market inertia by the third-party manufacturers: "Why donate resources to write new drivers for [our] legacy hardware when we are trying to sell the world *new* hardware? Well get to giving you new drivers when we are damn well ready to."
Which means everyone's legacy hardware doesn't work right. Which dooms the first release of the OS.
Note the pattern? Doom, doom, doom. EIther by MS's own hand (inadequate driver predevelopment notice, bug ridden OS, stupid UI "feature" ergonomics, 'feature bloat' or just plain ugly) or by the hands of the "partner" manufacturers (lack of urgency in developing drivers for legacy hardware).
All units discounted are capacitive "touch only" toy devices. Those do not offer benefits under Windows just costs. It is more interesting what they did NOT discount (Sony Vaio Duo 11, Samsung penables, ...) telling us that full capability tablet pc sell.
My guess is BestBuy will soon increase the prices of screen cleaning towels etc. to make big money from those toys.
These are mostly regular laptops that also have touch enabled. My son has one of the Asus laptops. He installed Classic Shell on it and never hast to touch the screen or use the blanketyblank fka-Metro substitute for the start menu. Heck, I put Classic Shell on my Win7 machine because I like the more compact Win2k-style start menu and old-style Explorer better.
So once you tame Win8 that way, it works pretty well.
Developer not admin so I rarely use bash and PowerShell these days. I believe in "letting the specialist do his job" so I leave company servers to ORACLE and MS trained/certified admins.
For setting up a "toy" server for privat use the UI tools are enough since security is irrelevant there. The system is not visible to the internet and only runs when I actively use it.
Not sure whether you were commenting to me, but I have known users who worked entirely from inside Emacs.
Before the advent of WIMP, the multi-window, multi-buffer and electric modes for Emacs allowed users to run a shell (using Emacs as the command editor), read their mail and news groups (there were mail and news clients written in Lisp), compile and debug their code, and even run NetHack from inside an Emacs window on a serial terminal that had a termcap definition (you know, something like a VT100/220 compatible, I won't call it dumb because termcap defined a dumb terminal as one that could not do cursor addressing).
The extensibility of Emacs was legendary, something that has surely been forgotten over the years.
You young whipper-snappers just don't know how easy you have it grumble grumble....
AC, you're wrong. It can not be turned off. With multiple 3rd party applications and a bunch of registry hacks you can make it somewhat resemble Windows 7 or Vista, but one does not simply "Turn it off". The OS is a travesty on so many levels. To get a brief idea of what a travesty looks like, Google this:
Look into what it WAS, and how it's gone now in the RTM, and what you have to do to get the same results.
It is soooo clear that Windows 8 was a vector to get some "app store" income like Android and Apple, and boost the their phone sales, functionality as a real operating system was last on the list, and forgotten about in some cases.
Secure Boot can absolutely be turned off - maybe you're too technically inept to actually read the content of the posts you're following up?
I've been using Win8 for a couple of weeks now, about 98% of the time in Desktop mode. The only thing that I've found missing is one-click access to "Sleep".
I was referring to the GUI "enhancements" because secure mode is more a function of the BIOS not the OS, but anyway, you still can't consistently turn that off either, go try it of a few on displays at various stores, it will be hit or miss, some will boot back up, some will not (Sony will not). I thought you were referring to the OS (for reasons stated above), and pertaining to the Metro/Modern mode, and yes you can click the "Desktop" tile, but if you think that makes it all go away, then that explains a lot and I'm done debating as we have no common ground to start from, have a nice day.
AC, you are what's called a "Web user" not a $uP3r Hax0r. Here are some other special hackers like yourself.
It's a Youtube link to monkeys using iPads.
The fact that you don't know why it sucks shows how little you do with a computer. Respond back after you have tried to map a SMB share from Linux into Win 8 Home only to have it work in the File Explorer differently than when an App tries to access it. You could use gpedit.msc to fix the NTLM issue, too bad they removed that from W8Home.
My mum got my dad a Windows 8 laptop for Christmas. They've asked me to put Windows 7 on it next time I visit.
You'll be using it and suddenly, without warning, what you're working on will disappear and the 'social network' screen, or some other nonsense, will appear. You're constantly on pins, just waiting for it to go tits up.
The rest of the time you're either trying to get the sidebar to disappear, or trying to get it to appear.
W8 : So far, none of the above.
But I guess a lot of it is how much you have loads of 'apps' hanging about .
As most of my stuff runs off of 'Desktop' the sidebar isn't used a lot.
I like the poke/mouse/keyboard combination, I've come from XP to 8 -- many people now will be very familiar with the swipe and poke of mobes so it's just an extension of that now familiar interface.
There are occasional oddities when screen resolution changes with Desktop progs leaving corners that can't be poked anymore but so far no issues with the 'It won't run . . .' that gets reported.
Indexing is much better - no longer have to go for 'search' then put the kettle on while it dredges the depths.
Superb for running MagicQ lighting software which supports touch screen for their own products - no hassles, no unpleasant bending or stretching..
Some very old software (VB6, older Delphi stuff) mostly written for Win98 stopped running when I switched to Win8. But that's about it so far
Apps are a mixed bag from "quite useful" (Mail, News, Messenger) to "works as bad as on Android" (Kindle(1)) to "WTF" (OneNote)
(1) The apps lack quite a few features of the Windows Desktop program
Not tried the priority part, I have both connections that are relevant on the mobile unit (Home and Hotspot) marked as "autoconnect" and the faster wins. That is always the local WLAN.
Deleting works fine. Just did it Sunday when I got a new mobile phone and configured the hotspot differently
When you connect to a new WiFi network, it’s added to the list, and Windows will connect to that network while it’s in range. If you connect to another WiFi network while in range of the first network, Windows will prefer the second network over the first one.
"You'll be using it and suddenly, without warning, what you're working on will disappear and the 'social network' screen, or some other nonsense, will appear. You're constantly on pins, just waiting for it to go tits up."
I had similar issues with a new W8 laptop. Found it worked much better (well, more predictably and reliably at any rate) with a mouse attached. Doesn't solve the whole split personality problem with W8, but at least it stopped randomly opening other applications or refusing to two-finger scroll for no discernible reason.
Whilst I don't have Windows 8 on a touchscreen laptop, I do rate touchscreen laptops quite highly, in very specific circumstances however. I own a Transformer TF101 and I don't use the trackpad on the keyboard. I only use the touchscreen for my selections. It works quite well for quick browsing, and navigation but at the same time I wouldn't want to use it all day every day as my main computer either. For a casual users I could see it being quite useful. Though smeared screens are incredibly aggravating.
Tried Win8 and touch since my Tablet-PC (sadly) includes a touch digitizer(1). It works in Modern just fine. It works in desktop programs to a certain degree, mostly for newer programs designed with screens bigger 1024x768.. It fails when reading forums not optimized for touch or using older soft - just as it does on Android or iOS.
(1) Wacom without touch is more precise since there is less space between pen and digitizer.
Simple steps to fixing your new Windows 8 computer.
1 - return Win8 PC, demand a Win7 model. (if allowed)
2 - if cannot do above, check to see if Win7 drivers are available and spend $100~130USD for Win7.
1 - Order online or locate a store that sells Win7 PCs... let salesman/management know Win8 is crap.
1 - Learn Linux... because Windows OS is going to be replaced by Metro with version 9 or 10... then there is no "windows" OS. Metro doesn't have Windows... at best, just shades.
I've talked with salesmen... PC Builders are going with Win7... mostly. About 1/4 of their PCs on the floor are Win7... still. Compared to the launch of Win7 3 years ago... vista disappeared overnight. *NOBODY* bought Vista OEM/retail... Here we are 4~5 months after Windows H8TE... and its still garbage.
Fujisu: Three penables with Win8 out (T732, T902, Q702)
Lenovo: One penable with Win8 out (TPT2), one to come (Helix)
Samsung: Two penable with Win8 out (Ativ 500, 700)
Asus: One penable with Win8 out (TF810), one to come (Taichi)
Sony: One penable with Win8 out (Duo11)
Dell: One penable with Win8 (Latitude 10)
Most of the above also have touch only devices with Win8 out.
Granted, these are minor companies that know little to nothing about selling PCs, notebooks etc. So they should ask the wise old man of the Linux community for advice.
"1 - Learn Linux... because Windows OS is going to be replaced by Metro with version 9 or 10... then there is no "windows" OS. Metro doesn't have Windows... at best, just shades."
Indeed. I would not be surprised if the desktop is slowly removed from Windows as newer iterations come out. The fact that Metro is on Windows 2012 server suggests to me that this is definitely the path Microsoft wish to go down (yes I am well aware it can be installed without any GUI, but why put a consumer smartphone/tablet interface on a server in the first place, it serves no logic whatsoever), as did removing the registry hacks that enabled the Start Menu in the previews.
Disabling the hacks makes a lot of sense of the desktops. MS knows that there will be three sets of "Windows" tablets
Win/RT - touch only
Cheap Win/8 - touch only (i.e Acer W510)
The first two need Modern style apps to be useable to "Joe Average". Looking at the inertia even in this forum that sometimes reminds me of the "Suppenkasper" from german fairy tales) if there is a simple switch Modern would not be used. And that is counter-productive for MS plans.
The Desktop subsystem will remain for the next 3+ years at least. MS just released a new desktop office and they keep long maintenance windows.
Modern UI on the server is part of the MS philosophy. They have always stressed "one look/feel" for server and client
I spend a fair amount of time keeping my screen free of dust and other detritus. The idea that I would deliberately smear finger grease all over my window on the world is as daft thinking of doing the same thing to my car windscreen. Absurd idea that fully deserves its place in the dustbin of history.
I still hate switching to Win 7 because the OS "forgets" where each program closed the last window. Now, different programs open windows on top of each other, forcing me to move them around, over and over, EVERY (expletive deleted) TIME I start the (expletive deleted) thing. WIN XP was the last decent OS that Microsoft produced, and the rest is crap. Yes, even Win 8.
I'll buy a touch screen when they come out with the Holomaster 3D dolodeck touch interface for porn apps. Until then, Gates can take his beloved Win 8 and bugger off. Fool me once, shame on Bill Gates - fool me twice... fat chance.
'Best Buy lowered its prices after a survey revealed that shoppers who bought touchscreen Windows 8 devices were “significantly happier” than those who bought PCs with a bog-standard display`
Isn't it usually the case that the price goes down only when a product isn't selling?
On the main page, 4 mentions of Windows and 9 mentions of Microsoft, lets make that a grand total of 13 free advertorials ...
You've got to be kidding. This is a step backward. Most laptops I've seen recently have a nice place for the palms of your hands to rest, with a nice touchpad where your thumbs might rest, or quickly reach for "mouse movement". They even include a nice little eraser (UK: rubber) thingy between the G and H keys so you don't need to reach with your hands.
Now Microsoft with its wonderful? new? Windows 8 interface wants you to reach out and touch the screen. I'm sorry, my hands really don't want to reach that far, and when they do actually "reach for the sky (aka screen)" often enough they will quickly discover that their carpal tunnel syndrome was not the only thing they have to worry about.
Sure, touch is nice at times, but it only makes sense if you don't have a keyboard to work with. Fondleslabs (I've used an iPad a bit) are ONLY touch, and you hold the thing in your hands so you really don't move your hands from another interface (keyboard/trackpad/nib) to/from the screen.
Of course, there is the problem of the goo your fingers leave behind. I turn off my fondleslab and the smudges are VERY evident. I suppose that one could have a ready supply of clean wipes around, but that is just another thing to worry about.
So, it seems that a touch interface is just another way of adding "tick boxes" to the specification sheet so a contracting agency can satisfy the request, even if nobody uses it. It is much like tail fins of cars in the 1950's. They got bigger and bigger, but they were simply decoration and served no real purpose, but there was a "feature fight" among car vendors to have bigger and bigger ones.
What a waste!
Errr isn't that an elbow?
Personally if I have my laptop keyboard in a comfortable position to type on then I can't reach the top half of my screen. Most of the time my laptop is on a docking station and there's then a little 24" 2nd screen just next to it. None of which within reach. As soon as I can afford one, the 24" screen will get dumped in favour of a 30" one which will then be even further away, where hopefully my ageing eyes can focus on the damn thing without needing to wear glasses.
Inspiron 14z infected with Windows 8 - $ 2008,00
Inspiron 14z with Windows 7 - $ 2200,00
Both machines have same config, same warranties, same Dell crapware bundled within, same HDD, same everything, but the OS. Windows 7 was "made" $200,00 more expensive, out of the blue.
In local currency, official Dell Store. Enough said.
- Years of "don't smudge my screen" culture blur away in a grease stain with the next generation of touchscreens;
- Microsoft gets rid of Ctrl-Alt-Del by removing the keyboard, not by removing the BSODs;
and up next:
- MS Fanbois that keep screaming "Apple is a walled garden" suddenly shut up when they learn about secure boot and Windows 8;
I could go for the Troll or Tux icon, but no.
Secure boot on Windows 8 is nothing like Apple's 'Walled Garden'. All it does is ensure that the OS is not compromised during the boot process. You can still install whatever you like afterwards - unlike in the Apple world. Also you can choose to turn off Secure Boot in Windows 8 - unlike in the Apple world.
Ctrl+Alt+Del is still available on tablet pc. Hardware keys are a requirment
BSODs have been gone from Windows somewhere between XP and Win7.
If you do not want fingerprints do not use a touchscreen. Win8 works fine without and unlike Android I can permanently switch of touch on a Windows penable(1)
(1) A 2x4 or 9x19 and a towel for the blood splatters are handy against M.Oron that does NOT get "no touch, pen only" on the third try.
Windows 8 is an abomination for the most part, so I am not surprised. The people who seem to be Windows 8 advocates either appear to support banishing Metro altogether and installing third party tools to bring back Windows 7 functionality or mention stacks of keystrokes and combinations as the best way to navigate the system. Assuming the purpose of Metro and Windows 8 is to make things simpler for novice users in the way the ipad does, then if either of these approaches are taken, then the product is a complete failure. Expecting new users to mess around with third party shells, or remembering hotkeys, harks back to DOS days.
I have actually used Windows 8, and yes it can be made perfectly usable on a desktop by disabling all Metro associations and installing Classic Shell or something similar, or indeed registry hacks. The question is, why bother? Just install Windows 7 and be done without all this messing around. In fact even Linux Mint 14 behaves more like Windows than Windows 8 does these days!
Most Windows users I know who have any opinion on the topic at all plan to keep with Windows 7. Linux Mint and CentOs have also attracted interest with a few dual booting it already or installing it exclusively on laptops. A couple of other people I know have bought Macs.
The ones who have no interest in computers whatsoever either just get on and use their aging XP machines or are seduced by Ipads and other tablets. I see no interest or demand amongst regular consumers for Windows 8. My friend's girlfriend is the only 'non geek' I know who has actually tried it (on her bosses laptop), and she said it was 'confusing', and he had no clue how to use the thing. I realise this is ancedotal evidence and thus arguably not-representitive, but I know of no one who has expressed any positive interest in Windows 8, let alone regularly uses it.
Incidentally where are the killer applications in Metro? What does it give the consumer that Windows 7 cannot? I can see why people are attracted to the Apple ecosystem, I can see why Windows 7 was a roaring success, and why Linux (particularly Mint) is gaining serious interest, if not yet serious traction (Steam may be the catalyst for change with this one). So far all people seem to recommend about Windows 8 is a few minor enhancements such as a better task manager (which Linux has had for years), better integration with Anti-virus / spyware software (and it doesn't take an expert to set up Microsoft Security Essentials), and a few kernel enhancements which won't make a lot of difference to the average Windows 7 user.
I, also, read the pro-Win8 camp "Just hit CTRL / ALT / F9 / HOME / J / Q / E and R, all simultaneously, to get this quick shortcut!" solutions that they post to user UI difficulties.
And simply scratch my head at their mindless apologies of an apparent failure.
A visual UI that demands a number of keystrokes as a way to better open up a program...is simply not well designed. A UI where a valid productivity option is to install a third-party tool to *substitute* the UI for a prior version...is simply not well designed.
But I guess corporate apologists exists in all levels in today's world.
Modern setup on a dual monitor developer maschine:
All developer tools (IDE(s), UML-Tool, LaTeX editor) and Office tools (MS-Office, GIMP, Notes) are set up as shingles on the Start screen (About 20 in total)
If I need one I either point and click or tab there with the cursor and hit return depending on where my hands are. The program starts and I am in Desktop-Mode
Win key => Modern
Win+D => Desktop
Win+C => "Menu" aka Charm bar, fully cursor useable
Win+E => File explorers (As in Win7)
Win+F => Find (As in Win7)
Win+Tab=> Running Modern Apps
That is all you need. Switching off/standby is with the power key. There are more advanced combinations but those are rarely used and even less by Joe Average.
Modern Apps offer benefits mostly on a tablet but work nicely as a replacement for stuff like Windows LiveMail on the desktop. They can also be useful for small tools that do not clutter the desktop and taskbar
Win8 has quite a few nice features for the home user. Like a changed/faster network startup useful in a WLAN only environment (Win7 could not re-connect NAS drives on boot, W8 can), the new hibernate modes (useful for desktop and notebook), the MS supplied and updated anti virus software etc. It is also a bit smaller, has better power management etc.
Been using Win8 since the day it came out (and testing it since MS shipped the first previews) and I won't go
back. Never used "grandpa Xerox" crutches or registry hacks. Modern IS a compromise but for me it works for tablet pc and workstation. It would also work for my Phone IF someone builds a penable WP8 unit. Since there currently is none I am stuck with a Samsung Note there.
And none of what you have written has any appeal to consumers whatsoever. If home users have the ability to set up and use NAS drives, remember keystrokes, and know what all their programs are called, so they can easily pin them or search for them, then they will have the ability to install Microsoft Security Essentials, as the better integration with anti virus appears to be the only really newbie friendly feature you have mentioned.
Some of the stuff you mention is the sort of thing you would use Linux for. Everything listed will all run fine on Windows 7 with no messing about. You have not mentioned any compelling Metro programs. You may have personally found some use for Windows 8, but there is nothing here whatsoever that will excite the ipad generation, or novice to averagely skilled Windows 7 users. And most power users / developers are quite happy with Windows 7, Linux or Macs.
And yet all of these touch screen Windows 8 models were available at Best Buy but did not shift during the holiday sales period AT THEIR PREVIOUS PRICES? That speaks more to consumers not being interested in touch screen PC's at higher prices than OEM's not following Microsoft's recommendations to design and sell kit that OEM's didn't believe would sell well. The OEM's were apparently right. Let's see if the sale prices will actually work.
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