Microsoft braces for Surface RT feedback storm Kludgey, dull screen, audio problems, fraying cloth covers – whatever your beef with Microsoft’s Surface, now’s your chance to get if off your chest. Microsoft has launched a Surface Owner Feedback Program for new owners of the Redmond fondleslab. You’ll be asked to take part in a survey on your experiences with Surface. …
"Hewlett-Packard’s chief of personal systems Todd Bradley, who called Surface RT “slow and kludgey”, expensive........"
...........with regard to whether it is a good device or whether it stinks. However, hearing one of the major Windows OEMs criticise the Surface in such terms when one thinks of the piles of slow, kludgey and expensive devices they have inflicted on us over the last couple of decades or so I cannot help thinking "pot, kettle and all that".
The OEMs are clearly biassed observers. They passionately do not want Microsoft's own device to succeed, but Microsoft only made one because of the half-arsed, will-this-do efforts the OEMS made to compete with the iPad.
"I cannot help thinking "pot, kettle and all that".
Maybe. But my take is that any HP exec would be an expert in slowness, kludgability, and costliness, and (quite rarely for an HP'er) Bradley is ideally suited to express such opinions.
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My Surface did not arrive as promised on launch day. I complained and was told i would get a voucher in compensation - I never heard any more.
When it finally did arrive, it was in a mangled box and had a shattered screen. I reported that straight away - and despite over 2 hours on the phone via repeated calls to the Microsoft Store no help desk trying to get a replacement i got nowhere. Every question required the agent to put me on hold to talk to someone else and they claimed that this was something 'the warehouse' had to resolve who were apparently not contactable by phone, email, or anything else that actually involved getting a response.
I asked to speak to a supervisor - and was told that they were busy talking to another customer. I said i was happy to wait - after which i was told that no supervisor would be available - now or ever - and that they didnt have a complaints or escalation proceedure! I then gave up and requested to cancel the contract under the Distance Selling Regulations. (I note that their website and their refunds process does not comply with UK or EU law.)
Depite multiple chasing calls - they still havnt provide the promised label to return the item - and as 21 days have now lapsed, i have no longer any obligation to return it. As of today (30 days later) I still have not received a refund as required by law so i contacted my credit card company to raise a chargeback...
Microsoft Store have zero customer service and no contact other than the no help desk - not even an email address!
Avoid at All costs....Buy an Asus, an HP Envy, or anything that doesnt involve the Microsoft Store....
Our office put in an order for an RT to evaluate its usefulness. It should have been shipped for release day. So far no Surface and Microsoft can't tell us where the order is - only that they took the money. And yes, dealing with the Microsoft Store is just as bad as you describe.
If this is the case then your next call should be to Trading Standards. Make a formal complaint and follow it up.
Then off down to the small claims court and sue the blighters. You may have to contact companies house to find their registered office so that they can be properly served but they have clearly F<redacted>d you around so now it is your time to mess with them.
If this was Apple then the apple haters would be out in force but at least with their stuff, they do replace it in the majority of cases when it breaks like this. Microsoft clearly have a lot to learn about retail. Perhaps some of the soon to be 'ex' staff at Comet would like to help?
Perhaps a call to Watchdog might get your money back a little sooner? We all know how much the Beeb like MS...
They are based in Ireland so the small claims court becomes more effort. It is easier just to point the finger at my credit card company. I have wasted enough of my time already to be bothered to complain to everyone and his dog.
If you wish to though, feel free - the T&C are on the website and as far as I can see they don't come close to meeting UK law: http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msuk/en_GB/DisplayTermsOfUseAndSalePage/ThemeID.30273200/
FYI, here is the returns email you get. It says that you must return the goods to get a refund, which is not what the law says - it requires a refund to be made within 30 days of the request to cancel - reqgardless of if the return has been completed yet. I have never received a label or an address to ship to despite chasing many times. They can apparently see on their system that a label was never sent too - but dont seem to be able to get their 'warehouse' to actually do anything:
Thank you for ordering from Microsoft. At your request, a return has been initiated. Your request to return items ordered will expire in 30 days. You must follow the instructions below before your request expires. We cannot issue a refund before these instructions are followed.
Each product must be received at its correct corresponding address in order for us to process your refund.
Please read carefully to ensure that each product is returned to the correct location. Once the product is received, your refund should appear within 5-7 business days.
Return Request Details:
Order ID: xxxxxxxxxx
Order Date: 16 October 2012
Return Reference Number: xxxxxxxxx
Reply Due By: 06 December 2012
Product(s) to Return: Product: Surface wWinRT-64GB Bndl SC EngBrit Hdwr Single
Quantity: 1
• All returns must be sent to the address on the pre-paid shipping label you will receive in a separate email.
"When it finally did arrive, it was in a mangled box and had a shattered screen."
No offence, but thats what you get when you buy stuff via mail order ... sorry , I mean "buy online" (note with self - must keep up with latest buzzphrases). You get some minimum wage monkey tossing it into the back of a van then tossed over your garden fence at midday so it can sit in the rain for 6 hours until you get home. Or they might not even bother and you have to go and pick it up at the delivery office which is only open from 10am to 3am mon - thursday. Every other month. During leap years. By which time you might just as well have bought it from a shop and saved yourself the hassle.
Except that buying it from a shop isn't an option for the Surface tab - and when it does arrive broken it should be their problem, not mine....
Had they had an even barely useable customer service operation i woudl likely have bought a Surface Pro too, but now im going to get something else instead. Maybe the new HP Envy or the Dell with the detachable screen....
No offence, but thats what you get when you buy stuff via mail order
Wow, someone tell Amazon their business model is a bust!
Seriously, I've ordered tons of stuff via mail order. Let's make a list of what I've personally mail ordered since 2005 has has a glass screen that could have been damaged but wasn't:
4 laptops
23 plasma TVs (no, not all for me :))
2 LCD monitors
2 iPhones
1 iPad 2 (xmas gift for the parents, don't tell them or you'll spoil the surprise!) To be fair, it is unopened so I can't say for sure it isn't shattered but the box is undamaged.
Here's a list of everything I've mail ordered since 2005 that has a glass screen that WAS damaged:
.
Maybe you live in an area with a psychotic package delivery man?
"Wow, someone tell Amazon their business model is a bust!"
I never said there was anything wrong with the business model. While there are idiots in the world there will always be people around to exploit them. Look how well Bookies are doing.
"Let's make a list of what I've personally mail ordered since 2005 has has a glass screen that could have been damaged but wasn't:"
Well apart from the fact that you're obviously have nothing useful to spend your money on you've been lucky. I know a number of colleagues who've had damaged stuff arrive and thats when it eventually turns up. Late.
Microsoft will not return items. I got a scratched up disk from them, which i was silly enough to actually open, thereby "agreeing" to give up all my rights by breaking the red sticker they put on the case.
After an hour on the phone saying I can't install Windows from this piece of shit scratched disk you sent me, they made it pretty damn clear that I would have to just pirate it off the internet.
Now I do that first without buying Windows. Treat your customers like shit and they'll return the favour innit
Typical Windows 8 / Windows Phone 8 / Windows RT experience.
On the surface (pun) everything looks nice, but after 10 minutes, you realise everything is very wrong.
The massively cut down (and comparable with £10 Android office apps) Microsoft Office was so laggy it had trouble keeping up with my typing. Other inclued apps were not much better.
The App Store was a total joke, the keyboard like I was in 1981 again on a Sinclair device. It had really bad audio problems
And all for the premium £500 price.
No thanks....
> http://encosia.com/a-month-with-my-surface-rt/
About the touch interface:
"...Not necessarily discoverable for novices, but powerful, efficient, and intuitive if you put some effort into learning how to use it effectively...."
So it's intuitive after you have learned it, and it's not discoverable.... so you need to learn it, but you can't since there is no way to find out about the gestures?
HTML5Test.com results...
* Chrome/23 = 448
* Safari/iPad = 386
* Opera/12 = 374
* Firefox/15 = 353
* IE10/rt = 320
* IE10/wait = 320
Question: which browser is at the bottom of the list...
As ever, it's the browser that's always at the bottom of the list and the browser that's least likely to be updated...
> Opera 12 and HTML5Test claims 404 points plus 9 bonus != my results
Proves the point nicely; ALL other browsers will be moving upwards. Microsoft will remain static as they're never updated.
As I was putting those numbers together, I realised that my Firefox was out of date (15 --> 17), so trying that again shows Firefox/17 as 392. So IE10 languishes as ever.
Surface wipes the floor with all of them in the Sun Spider benchmark though: http://media.bestofmicro.com/B/V/359419/original/sunspider.png
And it has a much better contrast screen than any other tablet: http://media.bestofmicro.com/6/K/359228/original/maxcontrast.png
> Surface wipes the floor with all of them in the Sun Spider benchmark
It is noted that you pick out one graph from the page that have several tests. The other tests show Surface getting soundly beaten.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/surface-benchmarks-windows-rt,3335-4.html
Love the bedroom trolls who looked at my link precisely long enough to see it was pro-Surface, closed the page and hit "downvote" without either reading the article or ever having used the device for themselves.
And these are the people who call others "sheep". The irony of trying to be cool by hating 'the right things' is wonderful.
I've actually been using one for the last month, and I mostly quite like it. The out-of-box experience with Office was pretty awful as you note, except that I found it was actually losing my keystrokes rather than just buffering them and being laggy. Following one of the many updates that have happened since, it got fixed and works well now.
I find Word to be the perfect fit for the device, and have used the Surface RT as a second screen for leafing through requirements docs, etc. reasonably often. The mail client still sucks like a vacuum, however - this needs sorting out next, given what I imagine their target market is.
IE works well, as do a few of the other apps. There's much work to be done still on the app front, and it obviously remains to be seen how well-adopted the platform will become with developers. I've yet to write anything for it, but it doesn't look particularly complicated.
I do like the idea of the slimline detachable keyboards. I have both the Touch and Type covers, but only really use the Type one as I can't cope with the zero-travel of the Touch. The left shift key is painfully small, but at least the nearby backslash could be remapped to operate as shift too, I suppose (regedit is still there).
My personal opinion is that it's not horrible to use, and I haven't experienced any audio problems. I'd agree that it's too expensive for what it is, however - would have wanted a built-in 3G radio at the very least.
People I've shown it to have been impressed with the screen (despite not having an insane pixel density) and keyboards. One was particularly taken with the ability to shoot a high-def video on an RX100, whip the SD card out and connect to the Surface with a normal cheap USB -> SD adapter, then just play it straight-off with no issues or faffing about - it just worked. The same can't be said of some other platforms at the moment.
I have several Android tablets and a 1st gen iPad, and understand the merits of each platform. I do think Microsoft is offering something a bit new with this, and admire the effort (if not always the execution).
I can only assume that you are on some fantastic drugs. I've used Word on RT and have yet to find much functionality that isn't in the full desktop product. It works with templates, macros, commenting and other workflow tools.
Then again neckbeard, you'd know that if you'd actually used one, rather than reading about it on Slashdot using Lynx on your "hipster than thou" Linux distribution
That typing lag issue was fixed ages ago. The update was already out by launch. I have a surface and its really fast and smooth. And my Lumia 920 is just as pleasant to use. You clearly are just like the HP exec. Just regurgitating crap you have skimmed from the equally uninform tech blog community.
"NPD also reported that sales of PCs had fallen in spite of the Windows 8 launch."
I wonder if they have considered whether sales of PCs might have fallen because of the Windows 8 launch?
Windows 8 is supposed to work quite well on tablets, but rather confusing on PCs. Now if only 1% of Windows 8 buyers are choosing tablets, that means 99% somewhat disappointed PC buyers. That would hit PC sales surely?
(It's not statistically significant, but the only 2 people I know who have recently bought a Windows PC, both chose to have Windows 7 rather than 8.)
Well that is jolly short sighted of you... Given a choice between a licence for a current OS or a licence for an old OS Id take the new one every day. there are always foibles with a new OS and a learning curve but this is silly nose cutting sensationalist madness!
or do you not a) realise that your Win8 Pro licence is downgradeable to Win7 pro or b) deploy an oem shipping image on your devices?
That is a huge impact. And now the astroturfing campaign seems shifted to "Wait for RT PRO - A Full Wintel tablet is our only hope!" Without a thought to the whole "Santa thing" or the fact that Wintel tablets have not ever moved significant units after being available for fifteen years.
If they're counting on a Wintel tablet to save them - and at that launched into the January post-Christmas inventory blowouts, they may as well give up hope right now.
Meanwhile Apple and Samsung are singing "I'm in the money..." as their supply chains churn out hundreds of millions of units to eager customers the world over with ready cash. Android and iOS devices are flying off of shelves effortlessly.
Then they have the gall to suggest macro-economic issues, as if we aren't laying out technology budget bigger and faster than ever before - just not on their stuff. Nonsense!
Google Analytics webstats from a busy website, non-technical (health/lifestyle), transaction based (selling things). Period: 31st Oct to 30th Nov.
IE10 - 0.17%
In comparison, Opera gets 0.57%, Chrome 33.2%, Safari 18.18%, Firefox 15%, Android browser 6%.
I can't find any reference to IE10, Windows 8, or Windows phone in the mobile section (could be that Analytics doesn't recognise it?). The website gets 23% of its transactions from Mobile devices.
It would be fascinating to see El Reg's stats.
IBM released OS/2 before MS came out with Windows 3. IBM was the giant and MS the underdog. In the tablet world Apple is the new IBM with the dominant market defining position (everything was an IBM clone back then) and MS the underdog coming late to the party with something that was totally different from the previous ecosystem (DOS character apps) but that worked something like the leader was doing (Presentation Manager then, touch and guestures now) but still allowed previous generation apps to run (DOS box then, desktop now).
The analogy isn't Microsoft being the new IBM, its Apple that is playing at being IBM with a totally closed in, everything built by me ecosystem.
I've been using mine since launch day and the only issue I've had was that our IT folks had used a self-signed cert for our Exchange server so I had to jump through some hoops to get the cert installed so I could connect. Other than that, it is fast, fluid and responsive as you say. I had already used Windows 8 on a desktop PC with a touch screen (and disliked it very much, and still do on a desktop PC without using tweaks to shove TIFKAM into the background) so I knew the shortcuts and gestures and once I used them on the Surface I had that "A ha!" moment. On a tablet it works. I imagine the UI works on a phone as well, but I haven't had more than 5 minutes with a newer Windows phone so I can't really say.
No audio issues other than the speakers are a bit soft for my taste (you aren't going to be playing music for a room full of people with this thing, for sure), and no issues at all with the touch cover.
Oh wait, I forgot - I do have one other issue with the unit. I am having the problem with the Windows logo on the back wearing off. Meh.
Now, lest those anti-MS folks think I'm a Windows fanboy, there are some design issues with the device that I have encountered (and a couple that make me go "how could they have missed that?).
First, both the front and rear facing cameras are 1MP. Seriously? Why in the world did you even bother with such a wimpy camera?
Second, the touch cover partially obscures the rear facing camera when folded back.
Third, the kickstand has one and only one position so you can't choose a more shallow angle for use, and the steep angle isn't appropriate for all of my normal uses.
Fourth, the SD card doesn't become an integral part of the file system - that is, you can't install apps to it, and you have to jump through hoops to get it to automatically store media and other files onto it to take some of the load off of the built-in storage.
Fifth, although the magnetically attached power connector is neat, it doesn't self-align usually, and a couple of times I've had to fiddle with it for a bit to get it to connect.
Sixth, I find myself inadvertently adjusting the volume when manipulating the device. Either the position of the rocker needs to change or the amount of effort needed to activate the switch needs increased.
Seventh, the kickstand only has a cutout / notch on the left side of the device to make it easier to open, it should really have one on the other side too.
Minor design issues aside (and I expect the next revision will correct most of them), the build quality is very good.
Because some people get so wedded to their personal technology choices that anyone making a different choice is insulting them personally. It is especially prevalent with users of minority technologies that the vast majority of people don't adopt in spite of the proponents constantly explaining how much better they are.
Some of us are aware that an 800lb gorilla beating up everybody in our neighborhood for 30 years does affect us personally. We would like to be rid of that gorilla, and it's starting to look possible. Already he's more of a Baboon, and we'd like to see him shrunk to about a spider monkey at least.
..............about a Windows/MS product........."
The reason is straightforward. Some of the MS critics on threads like this are classic "anti-fanboi tribalists" and their tactics are boringly repetitive, howls of "shill" "astroturfer" and "you are expletive crazy" each time and every time. *
Declaration: I have zero interest in buying any kind of Windows RT tablet regardless of who the producer is. I will not under any circumstances by any kind of pc that is a "walled garden" device - which is one reason why Old Nick will be complaining about the thermostat on His central heating system before I buy a Surface RT or an iPad.
I agree. I often see such posts from supposedly IT literate folks getting themselves into a real muddle.
I sit there using the same kit thinking.."well it's all working okay for me!"
I often wonder how their day goes with other things they own.
"Damn you washing machine!! Why cant you make toast instead of just soggy bread??!!"
Crikey. Do people still post this shite and childishly stupid list.
I mean, it's not only tiresomely overused by morons, but it's so completely incorrect it's criminally insane
Somehow I missed your listings of Windows 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, Me, and XP...and that's just going with the ones that had any sort of networking.
So please, just keep this tiresome crapfest of old bollocks to yourself and stop trying to sound clever. It makes you look like a turd. A steaming turd.
Somehow you missed that I was only talking about Windows NT, so you get a fail icon. I'm sure, seeing how you know its all tiresome incorrect bollocks posted by morons, that there are two families of Windows.
XP I did miss off, since that is NT 5.1, and simply a better shell for Win 2k.
I still don't understand why you all think this is bollocks [possibly because of instead of saying why it is bullshit, you've gone straight for the ad hominem. Who is the moron again?]. Are you saying I am wrong because Vista and 8 are awesome, or that Win2k and 7 are shite?
And Windows 7 is NT 6.1, which is simply a better shell for Vista.
And Windows 8 is NT 6.2, which is simply a different shell for Windows 7
Completely ignoring the other improvements, fixes and the like that MS made in the various versions, your "Odd number good, even number bad" still fails.
Surely the shareholders 'get it' now? Ballmer is the problem
The MS shareholders need to move Ballmer on and persuade Gates to come back and run the show. He might not want to, but point out that if they leave Ballmer in charge, there won't be any fortune left to dedicated to philanthropic causes.
Bill Gates, for all his faults, would surely not have presided over such a massive screw up.
Only seen it in use twice. A colleagues laptop lasted two days and then had to be rebuilt as it became unstable. And I used it for ten minutes to see if it improved my pc, used the boot from usb feature. Was fast and crisp, but that was on a pc and the interface was awful, three menus just to shut down. So 50% complete failure rate and 100% not winning me over rate.
I think the sales dip is people having just upgraded to windows 7 following the vista debacle and a need to upgrade hardware, so not everyone is yet in the upgrade cycle to want windows 8, which is a mixed bag from reviews, possibly leaning towards being another vista.
Having looked at the cost of the newer surface' being nearer 1000, and the battery life of some dropping to 4 hours. Not sure the surface will trouble my asus transformer prime anytime soon.
It's a good job you made a thorough test, ten minutes is easily enough to totally understand a new GUI and OS.
Also, if a PC became unstable in three days when running Linux, would you maybe suggest that the problem was more with the person using it or the hardware than the OS, I know I would.
I don't think Ballmer mad at all. Must admit I've only played with win 8 in a virtual machine, so I can't comment about the experience, except in a VM (ICK!)
I thought win 8 was about migrating people to Metro. Metro was supposed to be locked down, with apps only available through the store. Is that not the case? If it is Ballmer is playing for keeps (% of all software sales). Better to have a half baked solution out there and be in the game, than nothing.
The issue is of course the price of the hardware. If they could have delivered the surface for 1/2 the price plenty of people would give it a go and forgive it its foibles. To achieve that they'd need to have subsidized the hardware, to do that would be nuts, given the potential volume of PC sales. The answer get something out FAST and shove as many people as possible onto it.
Ballmer is relying on the massive inertia of the PC market to migrate enough of a percentage to the app store.
Expect a lot of development to metro, and a lot of spin saying its the best thing, cause it is, for MS.
To me the problem is that the Surface is invisible. It is nowhere to be found and tested in retail chains. In France for example in the Fnac retail chain Apple enjoys its own booth just for the iPad.
Then there is a booth for Android + W8 tablets + whatever but mostly Android. The W8 visibility is very bad and generally it is impossible to try them as the screen is blocked with price / spec information from the reseller.
As for the Surface, nowhere to be touched or tried. I think it is a big mistake on the part of Microsoft. Even the iPad needs retailers. I am very willing to try and buy a Surface, even more so a Surface Pro - which unfortunately isn't available, how is that for a big launch - but not without trying it first.
"Tami Reller, had earlier claimed that Microsoft had sold 40 million Windows 8 licences since the October launch; she did not clarify the figure, though, and it’s not clear whether this number includes PCs sold to end users or simply licences to OEMs which are making Windows 8 PCs."
</cynicism>
How many of those people like it because they tried the release candidate and were suitably impressed?
How many of those people like it because they saw the glossy advertising and were suitably convinced?
How many of those people will learn to like it when they bought a new laptop and didn't think of the OS at all?
No, Steve, they don't...they really don't. Just because you and your idiot marketing team are trying hard to distort reality about the steaming turd that is Windows 8 doesn't mean it's working. You're sitting there in your sled on green grass like Calvin, gnashing your teeth and trying to tell us it's snowing when it's not.
Windows 8 is a piece of crap. You said the same thing about how "great" Vista was too. Metro is awful, and we all know it's sole reason for being in Windows is to sell your stupid phone that no one wants, either.
As someone who has a Win 8 tablet and a Nokia Lumia 920 and finds both of them awesome I have to say you have absolutely no f*cking idea what you are talking about.
I do get them. They are easy and intuitive to use. Yes there is a small learning curve when you first switch to a touch screen but it is no harder than switching to any other touch screen interface. You just have to learn the guestures. And the bonus with Win 8 is that I can always access the huge number of legacy apps without being forced to buy them through a store and they just run on the desktop like they always have.
In the four weeks after Windows 8 launched, of all devices sold with some form of the Windows OS on them, 58% of them were Windows 8. The rest were Windows 7, Windows XP, etc.
In the four weeks after Windows 7 launched, of all devices sold with some form of the Windows OS on them, 83% of them were Windows 7. The rest were Windows XP etc.
At least I think that's what they're getting at.
Beer, because we should know better than to try and maths on a Friday.
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