back to article Facebook won't pull unmarked police plates page

Facebook has once again become a source of antipodean controversy after the social network reportedly declined to remove a page listing the number plates of unmarked police cars in the Australian State of Victoria. The "VIC Undercover Police Cars" page and "Victorian Police Booze/Drugs/Unmarked cars locations" pages both …


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  1. Esskay

    Reverse tactics

    Shirley it wouldn't be too hard to compile a list of "contributors" to the page? not necessarily to track them down, but if their name comes during an RBT check I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to throw the book at them.

    Not all criminals are morons, but many contributors to these pages are - I've looked at a couple of the NSW equivalents, and the number of people who slag off cops whilst leaving their personal accounts on "public" is alarming - particuarly when their profiles show pictures of burnouts, boasts of what top speed they've hit, etc.

    The page itself I don't have an issue with (despite being kind of useless - unless you memorise every plate on the site, you're still not going to know every undercover car on the roads) but the people using it don't seem to be the most clued-in types.

    1. Tom 35

      Re: Reverse tactics

      Pollute the data by posting plates of drug dealers, pimps, and IP lawyers.

      1. Big-nosed Pengie

        Re: Reverse tactics

        What have you got against drug dealers and pimps?

        1. solidsoup

          Lazy Cops

          If the undercover cops are conspicuous enough to have their license plate recorded, it means they're doing it wrong. If they don't have enough license plates to quickly replace compromised ones, they're doing it wrong. Rather than trying to shut down the page, they should use it to improve their own operational security. Of course that would take away from their donut time. It's much easier to attack the messenger.

          1. I think so I am?
            Thumb Up

            Re: Lazy Cops

            Why do people want number plates? Go by the type of car and colour.

            Cop cars in "x" area :

            Blue Audi A5 3.0TDI

            Black BMW 335D

            Silver/gray Volvo Estate 2.5T

            Easy now on the common sense.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Reverse tactics

      "if their name comes during an RBT check I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to throw the book at them."

      For what? Taking a picture of a car? Or do the police now have the right to a complete information blackout around themselves and their cars?

      The people posting those pictures may be morons, but that's a terrible reason to create a precedent for both preventing public oversight of police -and- a precedent for banning photography of public property in public places.

      1. Ole Juul

        Re: Reverse tactics

        Encrypt the licence plates so people can't read them.

        1. A J Stiles

          Re: Reverse tactics

          No, no, no. You need to encrypt the licence plates in such a way that honest people can read them, but criminals can't read them.

      2. Esskay

        @ David .W

        "For what? Taking a picture of a car? Or do the police now have the right to a complete information blackout around themselves and their cars?"

        I never said they'd be charged for taking a photo - I said they'd get the book thrown at them during an RBT. You even quoted me in your post, so I'm unsure how you jumped to that conclusion.

        From what I've seen, many contributors to those pages have what could be considered "questionable" tastes in car mods. Taking photos of a car isn't illegal, but issuing a defect for a modification is fairly discretionary - there are huge numbers of issues that an officer could pull someone up on if they could be bothered, such as having a wider offset on a wheel that results in the rubber protruding from the arch, a wheel size greater than 2 inches bigger than what was fitted at the factory, ride height below 100mm, headlight colour temperature above 4800K, oiled gauze filter under the bonnet without an appropriate enclosure, emissions - the number of things that people *don't* get pulled up on is much greater than those that they do.

        Running a check on a plate against contributors whilst doing a licence background check wouldn't take too much longer I would imagine.

        1. Annwyn

          Re: Mods

          so true - reminds me of a time (many, many years ago) when a quy I knew with a suped up car made the mistake of talking back to a cop. The cop then spent the next 30 min going over the car until he found something to defect it on

          1. Matt Bryant Silver badge

            Re: Re: Mods

            ".....The cop then spent the next 30 min going over the car until he found something to defect it on." Cops are not stupid, they know that if they look hard enough they can usually find something to give you hassle over if the copper can be bothered. It's usually simpler and a lot less painful just to be polite and deal without whatever reason the copper has stopped you for rather than going off on a rant and then getting your car towed away for a forensic search ("Five-Ten to Control, we have a suspected drug dealer's vehicle, we suspect the owner has been smoking illegal substances in the vehicle and need to sample all the upholstery - seats, doortrims, ceiling liner and carpets - by cutting out chunks to send for lab analysis..... Yes, he did call me a Nazi tosser.... Towtruck will be here in an hour? Excellent!").

      3. Maxson

        Re: Reverse tactics

        Well strictly speaking "Perverting the course of justice" by making it harder for undercover police to do their jobs. I'd like to avoid a 1984 style situation of the authorities always watching but I'm fairly sure that police surveillance of potential criminals is not the same as Big Brother watching.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Reverse tactics

      Just curious if there is any way to look up the plates of the people contributing to the page and have left their profile public, and post their plates to the page.

      In the states I believe a private party can get access this info for a price. Not sure how it works in other countries...

    4. Thorne

      Re: Reverse tactics

      It's a total waste of time. By the time you can read the cop's plates, you're already screwed

      1. Robert E A Harvey

        @Thorne: Re: Reverse tactics

        >It's a total waste of time.

        My view too. Subversive tokenism.

      2. Maxson

        Re: Reverse tactics

        If I were to guess, I'd say motorists are the most interested in this, so they know when they can and can't speed.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Easy - if the Police removed all the license plates from all of their unmarked cars...

      ...then the page would be useless. Job done.

      1. DrXym Silver badge

        Re: Easy - if the Police removed all the license plates from all of their unmarked cars...

        "Easy - if the Police removed all the license plates from all of their unmarked cars... ...then the page would be useless. Job done."

        Great, so you just look for a car without plates and assume cop car.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Easy - if the Police removed all the license plates from all of their unmarked cars...

          Great, so you just look for a car without plates and assume cop car.

          The great whooshing sound you heard was you missing a joke..

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

          Re: Easy - if the Police removed all the license plates from all of their unmarked cars...

          >Great, so you just look for a car without plates and assume cop car.

          No - you have a law making it illegal to notice that a car doesn't have plates

    6. philbo

      Re: .. I've looked at a couple of the NSW equivalents

      NSFW... New South Fucking Wales?

      ..mine's the one with the spare set of number plates in the pocket

  2. Mark Simon

    Re Morons

    "Not every criminal in Victoria is a moron" ...

    Facebook user? Moron? Isn’t that an oxymoron?

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      Re: Re Morons

      Having read some of the comment threads, I am worried that morons may be getting a bad name.

      1. 404

        Thank you!

        It was been pointed out here in the good ol' USA that 1-in-4 Americans think the Moron is an endangered bird. As an American, your post has let me feel .03% better.

        Thanks again!


    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Re Morons

      Did you intend to complement facebook users for their enlightened understanding or did you mean tautology rather than oxymoron?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Re Morons

      "Facebook user? Moron? Isn’t that an oxymoron?"

      No, No it isn't.

  3. JT163
    Thumb Up

    So what you're saying is that currently for a month or two, yet, twitter is the platform of choice for the social media aware crook.

    Actually I have not problem with this sort of page.

    The pollies like to claim we live in a democracy, the police, nameless agencies and the defense force claim to be defending a democracy.

    In a democracy you have free speech. Well in Australia we don't, but we're not really a democracy, we're a parlimentary monarchy.

    But we do have implied political free speech (apparently).

    If naming a narc is not political speech what is?

    If we were Libyans figthing the Gaddaffi regime (or what's left of it) this would be a victory for social media.

    We need to decide.

    Which is it.

    Are social networks to be used to create open societies - yes and de-frocking narcs is part of the open society .

    BTW face book is not the first nor will it be the last platform that offers this service, e.g.:

    I'd say the narcs just have to get used to a brave new world.

    Let's just say this perhaps in a zen bhuddist sort of way balances the fact they want to perform traffic analysis on every one in Australia's data for ever. And he drones that they will invariably have for watching us in the next 3-5 years.

    Meh FTP (it 's file transfer protocol, honest officer).

    Bah HUMBUG!!

    Now if my traffic goes through the US I'll be on the department of health services watch list - because I've said certain words in this post.

    1. DavCrav

      "I'd say the narcs just have to get used to a brave new world."

      And let's hope all your family isn't brutally murdered and nobody is willing to come forward as a witness because of your brave new world. That would be tragic.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Are we talking about narcs

      or undercover cops?

    3. The Baron

      In a democracy you have free speech. Well in Australia we don't, but we're not really a democracy, we're a parlimentary monarchy.

      A democracy does not necessarily imply a right to full and total freedom of speech, and nor does a monarchy necessarily imply the absence of that right.

      A parliamentary monarchy where the monarch's powers are so subscribed by the constitution as to be effectively zero, and where the monarch could easily be removed as head of state if the people voted for it, is essentially a democracy.

      If naming a narc is not political speech what is?

      Perhaps creating and putting forward an argument that undercover police represent a threat to the people rather than a benefit would be considered better political speech. One might argue that the law allowing for undercover police is created by an elected body and that the undercover police are operating within the law - and hence at least nominally with the consent of the people - in order to better identify others who are breaking the law.

      If we were Libyans figthing the Gaddaffi regime (or what's left of it) this would be a victory for social media.

      One might argue that the police in democracies are typically more interested in upholding justice, and that police in dictatorships are typically more interested in upholding the dictatorship. I accept that not everybody subscribes to this theory. Ultimately it comes down to whether one considers the police to be acting in the best interests of the general society or not.

      Are social networks to be used to create open societies- yes and de-frocking narcs is part of the open society .

      Again, only if you assume that undercover police are acting against the interests of the people rather than for them. I infer that you do make that assumption, but given that they are undertaking a function ascribed to them by the representatives of the people, one might suggest that directly reducing the effectiveness of that function is going against the will of the people and could thus potentially - and perhaps somewhat ironically - be considered anti-democratic.

      1. Thorne

        "In a democracy you have free speech. Well in Australia we don't, but we're not really a democracy, we're a parlimentary monarchy."

        Actually in Australia, we're a two party communist goverment system. You get to vote for one of two parties but both are identical.

  4. jake Silver badge

    One wonders how many of either side of the issue ...

    ... can recite their own plate number, much less the numbers of multiple other vehicles. Methinks this is the police/.gov making a mountain out of a mole-hill.

  5. dssf

    Illegal compilation of motorist plates?

    IIRC, in California, it is illegal to compile a database of motor vehicle plates. Well, illegal for non government collectors. Theoretically, it is about privacy and anti-stalking. But, vanity plates may be an exemption.

    But, as for undercover cars, the police parking lots in San Francisco have all sorts of official vehicles that might be inactive or less used undercover cars of all makes and models, sitting in plain view, plates readable. The more protectrd cars are in underground garages. Similar with San Jose, Milpitas, and other cities which had to build down more and out less. Still, there is nothing to stop a clandestine parking of a vehicle that is camera equipped and which records plates. Plus, almost EVERY police agency has at least one rogue officer who will sell portions of or all of anything for the right price, and has an accomplice to cover tracks. Same with DMV, given the past incidents of corrupt employees selling real, but unauthorized ID cards to groups and individuals, enabling all sorts of people to live in the USA and illegimately obtain services, some to commit violent crimes.

    The solutuin for the police is to simply make sure the plates do not associate to a specific officer or agency. At least, externally. That way, the sorces of leaks will be easier to find. But, gradually, the agencies will be discovered. So, they have to swap plates, i reckon.

    1. Robert E A Harvey

      Re: Illegal compilation of motorist plates?

      Genius! Claim car numbers are copyright, & go after them through the courts!

      1. Purlieu

        Re: Illegal compilation of motorist plates?

        Only if the rectangular plate has rounded corners

  6. dssf

    Also...plate sweeping

    In certain cities, since police do not proactively mind their plates during intel and sting operations, some gangs collect info just by pressing into service any number of teens and others, equipping them with radios or almost untraceable wireless devices and phones. When Crown Vics and Ford Taurus or other fleet purchase vechicles or known confiscated vehicles breach a criminal "perimeter", a call will go out, at least 2 or more blocks away. Smarter criminals may operate from areas forcing a quasi choke point so there will be fewer streets and approache routes to monitor for undercover lurkers. Some may also "plate sweep" a neighborhood days or weeks in advance, rooting out potential problems, maybe even "concerned citizen" reporting dead or abandoned vehicles to see how responsivle ornresponsible and cooperating the tow agencies are with the police. Anything new and unmoving migh be suspicious, and inside contacts can be pressed (or blackmailed, or may be a criminal mole in the police ranks) to reveal the ownership to make sure it isnor is not a long distance relative or tourist and not a police or federal monitor.

    I read a lot, and none of this is classified. I also have an imagination, as does any other person. And, if you imagine writing movie scripts, it goes a long way to making scenes original and plausible.

    Some of this was in newspapers over 8 years ago. Similar things can be found in books written by cops who "told all"when they were set up by fellow cops. But, the military also has its own share of infiltration, pilferage, and more. Ultimately, it is a vicious, circular game....

    1. jukejoint

      Re: Also...plate sweeping

      "Ultimately, it is a vicious, circular game"

      You are so right. Game it is, and not pleasant. I quit.

      [Go Giants]

    2. jukejoint

      Re: Also...plate sweeping

      "Ultimately, it is a vicious, circular game"

      You are so right. Game it is, and not pleasant. I quit.

      [Go Giants]

  7. James O'Shea

    complete nonsense

    Here in Deepest South Florida the local cop shops (and there are a lot of them) have a good number of unmarked cars... most of which are extremely obvious. If you see a white Ford Crown Victoria with the bumper bars and a spotlight, it's a cop car. And you can see bumper bars a _lot_ further away than you can read a license plate, and bumper bars are on the front and rear while here in Florida the only license plate is on the rear. The local cops also have a number of unmarked Dodge Chargers. To be precise, the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office has six unmarked Chargers: two white ones, a black one, a silver one, and a dark blue one. They used to have seven; a silver one got totaled in an accident on I-95 two months ago. Everyone who travels on I-95 and certain other roads such as Southern Blvd and Military Trail knows them. They swap out license plates every now and again, but they swap 'em with other unmarked cop cars. The County also has a red Ford Taurus which has, allegedly, been heavily modified, with a new engine and transmission, and a black Escalade. Florida Highway Patrol, the state cops, have four more Chargers (one each white, black, silver, and dark blue) and a yellow-and-black Dodge Daytona and a red Corvette. Both the County and the state have a number of silver Chevy Impalas; one of the staties is a high-end model with all options included. Those are the boys out making money by issuing traffic tickets. If you see a white Charger in the slow lane on I-95 between the Woolbright and Hypoluxo exits, you _know_ it's a cop car. If you see a silver Charger in the slow lane on Southern between the I-95 off-ramp and Military Trail, you _know_ it's a cop car. Well, anyone who's spent more than a few minutes on the road and who's paying attention knows it; it seems that they still catch idiots who _aren't_ paying attention. The staties also have a green GrandAm.

    The Florida Department of Transport has at least three Ford F-250 trucks and a Chevy Silverado. Florida Fish & Wildlife has at least one Silverado and several Ford and Dodge trucks. DOT mostly chases truckers, and F&W has their own thing, so they won't annoy John Public unless you do something stupid right in front of them. (Which has been known to happen on I-95, a.k.a. Home of the Morons. Especially between the Woolbright and Hypolouxo exits. There's something about Boynton Beach which just attracts the mentally defective.)

    The drug boys and the sex police have several Tauruses, mostly red ones, and Impalas, mostly silver. They do have a number of other vehicles, confiscated from drug thugs and pimps, including a Porsche SUV and a Benz SUV, and two more Escalades. Once again, they are all well-known. If you see a red Taurus with a license ending in 6PL cruising up Lake Worth between Congress and Military, or on Military between Belvedare and Forrest Hill, it's a vice car hunting hookers. Though I'd say that they'd have an easy job if they just hung out near the multiple establishments which have an, ahem, 'all girl staff' according to the signs out front.

    1. Anonymous IV
      IT Angle

      Re: complete nonsense

      All fascinating stuff, no doubt, but hardly vital information for El Reg's overwhelmingly British readership?

      1. Danny Roberts 1

        Re: complete nonsense

        I'm part of the overwhelmingly British readership just back from Florida and I can attest to the stupidity of some of the drivers! Bundling down I95 into a thunderstorm, the wipers on max can't clear the windscreen and instead of slowing down and moving farther apart, everyone seems to catch up with the car in front and sit on it's tail so they can at least SEE what they are about to smash into!

        I75 instead of I95 but you get the idea:

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Not all criminals are morons,

    But all Facebook users are.

    Boom Boom !

    1. ByeLaw101

      Re: Not all criminals are morons,

      Basil, is that you ;)

  9. JaitcH

    In Newfoundland, Canada, many government owned cars have ...

    'G' plates. Regular car owners get a 'A' registration plate and trucks and pickup's get a 'C' lettered plate.

    Dumb, simple.

    There are a few cop cars that don't comply.

    The other way, to spot which are the cop cars, if you know radio antennae sizing, is by their slightly longer antennae lengths. The RCMP don't always play fair, they have concealed antennae under the rear window shelf in the trunk (boot).

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    You know what?

    As much as I dislike boy racers etc, I hate the "throw the book at em" brigade in equal measure.

    Currently the UK harvest's 10's of thousands of photo's of car number plates, faces, locations details of poeple every single day and 10's of thousands of these people have done absolutely nothing wrong. Private and council car parks horde this information, train companies publish personal details for the very minor offence of not having a train ticket, public and private businesses slurp up information about us like there is no tomorrow, CCTV is everywhere.

    So you know what? I have bugger all sympathy for them.

    1. Keep Refrigerated

      Re: You know what?

      This is what I was thinking - it's escalation of sorts.

      The people require a police force - it helps to keep some sort of order in society and with the right checks and balances, a minimal amount of innocents prosecuted as guilty - with compensation in those cases.

      The problem is when too many checks and balances are stripped away, or sweeping, overbearing laws are introduced (don't worry we'll only use it against 'real' terrorists). When too many freedoms are given to the police force to arrest people wearing offensive tee-shirts, saying things they don't like to hear, being in the wrong place at the wrong time...

      When more 'innocent' members of the populace are caught in the widening perp-classification - then these reclassified perps/people are going to start seeing the police as an enemy of freedom rather than a necessary evil to ensure a certain level of freedom. So someone who's greatest offense towards society may be wearing a 'not nice' political tee-shirt or driving 33mph in a 30mph zone, suddenly finds themselves motivated to be far more anti-establishment by 'outing' undercover cops.

      === tl;dr ===

      If the police used these undercover vehicles strictly for serious crimes, then normal, borderline people (parking tickets, minor speeding etc) wouldn't feel the need to go so far to out them.

      Same goes for how law is enforced generally - don't abuse your position, and reasonable people won't feel the need to fight back.

    2. Tapeador

      Re: You know what?

      Separate private companies there briefly (who are subject to the Data Protection Act), and you're left with government and emanations thereof, trying to run a state, i.e. protect us from one another. Distinguish that from a bunch of kids who on a whim put up these number plates so as to help one another evade the state's crime control activities, and whose activity gives the police yet another job (getting new plates) and in both senses, hindering the police in doing their proper job, and you'll see the state and the kids "slurp[ing] up information" are very different propositions indeed.

      We do need the state, you know! People don't automatically play nice, as some sort of consequence of getting their libertarian jollies!

  11. Matthew 3
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The obligatory XKCD reference:

      but not in NZ: "Police clamp down on confusing personalised plates"

    2. A J Stiles

      Re: The obligatory XKCD reference:

      Actually, there are two pretty simple fixes for that.

      One is to use a custom collation in your database which treats e.g. I, L and 1as the same character; likewise O, D and 0; B and 8, S and 5, &c. And then you simply don't allow any combination to be issued if it would match an existing one under this collation.

      The other, even simpler one, is to specify exactly which characters are permitted in which positions. If the format is, for example, /^[A-Z]{2}[0-9]{2}[A-Z]{3}$/ then there is no possibility of confusion (a digit "8" recorded at position 1, which is alphabetic, must actually be a letter "B").

  12. Steven 1

    Do they have rounded corners? ;)

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Doing it wrong.

    Don't appeal to facebook on your awesome authority, unless you have an american court order in hand, though an american national security letter is actually better because it lets you keep'em mum about it too. That's just too bad for everybody else, right?

    Not quite. Instead, say you're from the church of the holy law enforcement brothership and that your flock is deeply offended by this outrageous blasphemy of publishing the sacred unmarked licence plates to the uninitiated. Add riots and maulings of random out-of-town motorists to make the point. Then we'll see how quickly they'll block that stuff in just your country, which is good enough for the purpose.

    On another note, to be a truly useful public resource, those facebook pages really shouldn't be hidden behind a facebook login. There the "owners" (really?) of those pages too are doing it wrong.

  14. Graham Wilson

    Again, it's time to point out a major difference between an army and a police service.

    In an army grunts grunt, but only amongst themselves. What warriors do for a living is war and that's set by The State--or at least by their senior officers, thus they have stuff all say in the matter of policy--at least in public. Soldiers do not say "Oooh, the Somme, Verdun etc. look suss and overly dangerous today so I'd better run off to tell the newspapers and politicians about it", they do what they're damn-well told without comment, or else.

    But The State allows the opposite with police forces. It seems that every five minutes someone from the police is complaining about the lack of laws for this or that, or that some law should be tightened, or that judges are too slack: police POLITICAL complaints seems never-ending. Just as bad, politicians actually listen to their complaints and act on them because it makes good copy for newspapers and other media if they don't.

    What this amounts to is that we've a never-ending tightening of our laws--have you ever seen the volumes of law becoming fewer? Of course not.

    It's time police services were neutral in matters of policy. If they can't take the heat then they should get out of the service--complaining to all and sundry shouldn't be an option.

    Policy and law should ultimately be the responsibility of the citizenry, not police demanding better working conditions and playing on the fears of the public whilst so doing. Simply, the more the cops complain, the fewer freedoms we have in our democracies.

    1. Matt Bryant Silver badge

      Re: Again, it's time to point out a major difference between an army and a police service.

      Going by his rant, I think Graham got caught curbcrawling recently.

  15. John Tserkezis
    Thumb Down

    Not going to make a difference.

    This page won't affect police security at all.

    We spot undercover cars a mile away. Well, nearly anyway.

    If undercover cars were truly undercover, they would be entirely indistinguisable from any other car.

    But they're not, there are clear tell-tale signs, installations, tints, wheels etc that make them stand out.

    Added bonus, no need to memorise plate numbers the rest of the clues are quite clear enough.

    I'm sure this guy was thinking he's doing everyone a justice, but by missing the visible clues, and relying on plates as identification (we don't all have photographic memories) he's only proved that criminals really are just plain stupid.

  16. James 100

    If they really cared...

    Nothing to stop the police sticking a freshly-issued plate on the cars before an operation where it really mattered: just hit the database, grab a previously-unused number (or one you know is not in use now: one you've just impounded, one sitting in the scrap yard, etc) and stick it on the unmarked car. It's not as if they'd be arresting themselves for using "fake" plates, or would have any trouble doing that with a database they already have full access to.

    Of course, most uses of unmarked cars here don't need even that level; just cruising around the motorways keeping an eye out for drunk drivers weaving around or boy racers way over the speed limit overtaking everyone, anything that doesn't literally have the word "police" in large letters with big flashing lights will do fine.

    (A friend of mine once bought an ex-police motorway patrol vehicle. Insanely high mileage for the age, having spent 8 hours a day cruising around at 70, but immaculately maintained, perfect service history and all the replaceable bits already replaced. Good deal, I think.)

  17. NoneSuch Silver badge

    "Not every criminal in Victoria is a moron,"

    Funny how fingerprint technology has been around for 130 years and burglars still break in houses without wearing gloves.

    Censorship never works.

  18. Ralph76

    Simple solution for the cops- have a big car auction and sell off all their "unmarked" cars. Next they spend their now bulging budget for cars on some nice new, un-recorded cars.

    the public get some well looked after cars with a few doughnut and coffee stains and the perps are no longer one step ahead of the cops.


    1. Oninoshiko


      or just replace the number plate.

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