Windows 8 tablets unwrapped in Berlin: Dell goes keyless for ARM Dell, Hewlett-Packard and Sony have hitched their skirts to reveal PCs running Windows 8, which will be on sale in October. All three announced ultra-thin machines that can be twisted and turned into tablets running the latest version of Microsoft's operating system. Dell, though, was the only one to unveil a pure-play slab: a …
"Reg regular Tim Anderson put it far more succinctly thus: "Hello customer, would you like this clever-twisty-touch-keyboard-trackpad-Windows thing, or this easy to use iPad?""
I think Tim pays too much attention to himself!
The 'tarded comment from a very old man should read, "Would you like a full feature Windows 8 PC with full productivity and entertainment at its heart, or join the borg, be assimilated into the "i" crown and work with a very limited, but oh looks so shiny iPad thingy your GRANDMOTHER uses?"
IE10. Which you've never used?
Sorry, been using Win 8 for a while now...
iPad also locks down which browser you can use.
Yes it does, ios limits other browsers to simply being front ends to the safari webkit engine. It's why I switched to Android.
MS is trying to imitate Apple here without understanding why Apple can get away with some of the shenanigans it does. It's going to blow up in MS' face.
I'm not sure why only one company can "get away" with something...
But the point the OP was trying to make was that MS aren't doing only this, they're givng us choice. So Windows RT and pure tablets are for people who want a dumbed down Ipad clone, the rest of us can be happy with a device that has keyboard and runs full Windows.
And "Tim" thinks it's the *latter* that's a bad idea - whilst the rest of us here would prefer it. I do find it bizarre that MS offering the choice of either means they end up being criticised from both sides...
Nope, the closest Opera has is "Opera Mini" which is a glorified picture viewer. Essentially you go to say the bbc news website, it renders the bbc news website on operas servers and then sends you a rendered image of that page to opera mini.
Chrome exists on ios but it's simply a shell to the safari webkit engine. It doesn't have any of the engine features of Chrome like V8 etc. And IOS limits the fast JS engine (Nitro) to Safari only.
Hang on a mo - surely the Windows RT one is a plain tablet without the twisting keyboard thing. The ones with keyboard are x86 machines, which means full Windows 8. (Well, it's hard to tell from the article - though even if these ones aren't, lots of x86 hybrids are being released, with Windows RT really being kept for the low end pure tablets.)
And this also seems to be a case of attacking from completely opposite directions. The article praises Ipads for being simple and criticises this for being complex, but then you come along and criticise Windows RT for being simple.
Don't know why all the downvotes, the fanbois must have got to you first, the fact is you're right. If, like many people I know, you find yourself carrying around an iPad and an ultrabook or netbook, because you, know their functionality doesn't entirely overlap, then you may well find one of these devices is perfect. Hard to say until you can play with them, but snarky dismissal based solely on the fact that they're not limited-functionality, fruity-badged toys is not too clever.
I think it is a result of all the negative sentiment MS has built up over the years. Their products are having a very difficult time getting a fair shake in the minds of consumers. I think my Lumia 900 is awesome and I can't wait to get a Surface. But MS will have to continue to produce quality products like Win7 and WP7 to rebuild their good will.
Right now MS is considered to be icky and the cool thing is to bash them. But is you want to be true counter culture underground super cool then up voting MS is the way to go.
You do have a point, but I think the real problem is that generally the journalists touting the currently popular dumbed down toys are the 'kids' you mention; they are just in the habit of hyping everything Apple, and denigrating Microsoft, as that is what they perceive the market wants to read. They also tend to be completely consumer focused, so they don't see the full range of plus and minus points for each side.
It's really difficult to find any impartial review sites, most are like the Register, that are no more than blogs with a face on, posting click bait.
I have an iPad.... and I'd MUCH rather have one of these sexy new gadgets that I can use in every scenario. The only trouble for me is figuring out which one I will settle on. HP's Envy x2 would be perfect if it came with a wacom style pen for taking notes.
As I want to hold out for reviews anyway, I may just end up waiting for the Surface Pro since it really is the best to cover all angles imo... lightweight, premium performance specs, easy k/b solution, and a pen. I love Toshiba's slider as well though and will probably get it... though not so much as a tablet replacement, that will be my ultrabook purchase for the year.
Windows 8. Not a PC, not yet a tablet.
Relegating the desktop to an 'app' is why I will not be going down the windows 8 route (apart from the preview in a VM). I just can't really see netbeans running on a tablet system such as 8.
Windows ME was just slow. Vista was buggy but they were still familiar. Windows 8 is just awkward for no user gain. Even Unity is better, and thats saying a lot.
NO! NO! NO! This is Windows 8 for ARM (or Windows RT). Don't forget about the conditions Microsoft placed on this OS for secure boot! You CANNOT INSTALL ANY OTHER OS ON ONE OF THESE!!! Period.
If it was Windows 8 for Intel (or whatever they call that version), THEN you can get around secure boot a couple of ways (ask Canonical or Fedora) or, supposedly, the end user can simply turn it off.
We have to spread the word! WindowsRT on an ARM device is a complete dead-end.
Only one of the devices appears to be Windows RT, the other devices seem to be x86 machines. (Though the article is a bit unclear - but at least one mentions x86 specifically, and in general, lots of the new hybrid machines being announced are x86.)
Put Android on them and they'll fly above the whole property and even have the option of leaving the county.
Really? Android tablets are available in all these form-factors and more. Are they outselling iPads?
No.
Android cheerleading in the tablet format seems to be futile. Give it up.
....pushing their tongues right up Apple's arse.
If they carry on and push everyone over to Apple they will have even less of a job and reason to justify their existence. Nothing to report on other than the once a year mega expensive refresh (read 'warmed over').
Plus it will be a very boring world indeed.
I agree - depressing we can't get through an article without an obligitary Apple plug.
The bizarre thing is that the criticism it makes is the complete *opposite* point of view of most the commenters/voters here. The consensus seems to be disliking pure tablet devices, and locked down Windows RT[*] - exactly the same reason why people here don't like Ipads. Yet "Tim" criticises it for having a keyboard, and not being "simple". It's as if they intentionally picked a comment that would criticise it, but for reasons completely unrepresentative of what most readers think.
[*] And ppl seem to have missed that many of these devices are running x86 Windows.
If PC sales have "slumped", it's because they've long reached saturation (everyone who wants one, has one), and we're in bad economic times. It's much easier for a market to grow when it's new, and much smaller. That doesn't mean it can be extrapolated to say that tablets will be what everyone uses instead of PCs, as the Register, the media and so-called analysts seem to think. "The PC is dying" is getting old, and the way the media want to push us all to Ipads is worrying.
Plus what is a PC? Why is it a "PC" if it's a tablet only device running Windows RT, but not if it's running Android or IOS, and made by one of the same companies that make laptops...
A 20" tablet - so you can see an 10" tablet user and say, "Call that a tablet, THIS is a tablet."
LOL
Many years ago I bought a laptop with a 19" screen as a desktop replacement. I needed the performance (3.2GHz P4), the screen area *AND* portability.
There were a few 'unfortunate' reactions from one or two 'members' of the client's staff when I turned up on sites with that monster :)
Actually, that kind of set up *can* be quite handy.
I do have a couple of 25.5" HP Touch Smart all-in-ones set up as a kind of 'communication' device at home and at my office - with Windows 8 on it the touch works out really well, and that is where I check emails, watch the news, watch TV (using FilmOn - free), and the touch interface works really well now. It sits within reach and has a resolution of 1920 x 1200 :-)
I'm going to see how well Xbox SmartGlass works out on it.
For development work I use a standard non-touch screen, keyboard and mouse - but having the big touch screen next to me is really quite handy to act as a sort of 'star trek' control device - its also great for remote desktop connections while taking up very little desk space.
Just my opinion of course.
"It sits within reach and has a resolution of 1920 x 1200"
That's part of my point, because the device is supposed to be touched and nearer the eyes, it needs a resolution a bit better than a mid range 15" laptop. Add to that all the foolishness with ribbons, blessed be the dev who auto-hides or lets me close the ribbon - that's not you PTC with your fixed 200 pixel ribbon, and that paltry 900 pixel height becomes a serious liability.
Keyboard, mouse and printer support.
I'm amazed by how crap Android is as soon as you plug in a keyboard / mouse or a trackpad. It does the basics (there is a mouse pointer), but hover over a field and does the pointer change context? Nope. Does Ctrl + Shift + Cursor work in some text field? Depends, sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't work at all. Some apps like Polaris Office don't even offer advanced cursor selection / navigation. Want to print? Hohohoho! There are a mess of 3rd party solutions struggling to fill the void a proper print infrastructure should be.
Android is a great OS and I believe it will be superior to RT in many regards but it really screws up with these things. I wish Google would take time to make Android run great with keyboards and mice and great to use as a portable office. Give up the delusion that ChromeOS is ever going to take off and start kitting out Android to address RT's strengths while there is time.
Android is still focused for touch, mouse and keyboard support is still an afterthought.
I think Google at some point is going to have to do a desktop variant at some point. Just like they've done a tablet variant UI/UX.
I think they're going to do something akin to what some phone manufacturers have been demoing for years. You have a phone/tablet that you plug into a dock which is connected to a mouse, keyboard and monitor. A new UI/UX then appears on the monitor for you to use your phone/tablet as a computer. (sort of similar to what Ubuntu demoed a little while ago)
Totally agree on ChromeOS, it's a delusion. It's going nowhere. Google should be focusing on Android.
"Those are what *I* and clearly what the android developers consider "PC" functionality."
Android implements half assed keyboard and mouse support and no print support at all. Doing so would not turn the device into a "PC", instead it would turn it into a useful portable device for typing up substantial documents on the go.
Given that it's one of the things that Windows RT can be guaranteed not to screw up, now would be the time for Android to get its house in order.
"Those are what *I* and clearly what the android developers consider "PC" functionality."
Well, if enough of the user base were to consider it to be useful, desirable or (how dare they) essential, I would say that that you and the Android developers would be the ones in error.
Developers who put their own requirements and prejudices forefront in a product are, to me, akin to a fine art salesman who only sells art that he would personally buy. Never a particularly wise approach.
Are you really suggesting, because you consider that to be PC functionality and you surmise that the Andriod developers hold the same position, that it should not even be considered for improvement/implementation? If so, wow!
Wow..just wow...
I got an e-mail this morning telling me to get all the win 7 licence keys together, so we're ready to move to win 8. So I downloaded the consumer release preview... Oh my GOD what an absolute clusterf**k in a box. I see what it's trying to do...but it's just so bad at it...
It all started after it took a full 20 minutes to startup after 'installation' (in a VM machine on an i7 giving it a meaty 4gb of Ram) Then it just got worse, I couldn't work out how the hell you quit. So I googled that, then i was using ie 10 and it arbitrarily stopped a download when i hit the progress bar.
I then went back into ie. and told it to use the desktop, which it promptly did...but then locked me into the desktop with absolutely no way to get out or escape from it, without resetting the VM.
Installed office 2010, littering 20 or so tiles on the 'metro interface' most of which are useless...and then about 90 minutes ago, i had to turn the vm off, because it point blank refused to bring up the side bar with the Shutdown. I'm learning it because i'm going to support it..and more worryingly our guy in charge of tech wants to shove surface pro at everyone.
Personally what i'm seeing is another closed alley by MS. We're going to buy a load of surface pc's at approx £600 each, and then MS are going to call the whole thing a massive failure and retreat...
Classic shell, you're welcome.
It makes Windows 8 usable with a mouse and keyboard.
Just stick your most used apps in the Taskbar like normal and change the default Metro Apps to the desktop versions and you rarely have to venture out of desktop world.
It's not that difficult.
I was pretty anti Windows8 at first but then I decided to just get on with it and nut up.
Once you actually stop whining, pull your bottom lip from over the top of your head and do a little configuration you find actually it works fine.
Well, it's not really designed for us in a VM. Maybe its the hypervisor causing the speed problems, because Windows 8 is noticably quicker than 7.
I was also sceptical about Windows 8, having tried both previews, and I was ranting to friends that it would be a disaster, how I couldn't figure out how to use it.
But I stuck with it, and now, I wouldn't go back. Once you 'get' the way Charms work, that it actually does work quite well with a mouse keyboard combination, you do learn to appreciate a lot of the improvements.
It's fast, for example - the startup on my 4 year old laptop with an AMD Turion is about 22 seconds from cold-boot bios screen to Windows log in screen being available. From sleep mode to using fingerprint recognition to sign in is about *3* seconds to show the new Metro UI / Windows 8 interface etc etc.
It certainly isn't perfect - the switch to desktop happens far too many times for my daily workload, and it's still jarring - but that's probably because most of us here are in the industry and use our computers in a completely different way to many consumers.
All in all, I think it's a pretty good effort from Microsoft. For a first release, it's usable and with promise. It is not for everyone, but given time, I think this will be a winner.
The biggest problem is that it really is different for people.
I decided to throw together a Win8 machine with some spare components at the weekend - the only new part was a 60G SSD I picked up on sale. It took less than 11 minutes to install, and that included a couple of minutes for me to go find the installation key that I'd forgotten to write down before I started installing it.
But I couldn't find a useful "Intro to Windows 8" document or website that would explain in a couple of pages the sort of things that are causing people to stumble in their first 30 minutes with Windows 8. I don't need to know a bunch of in depth things, just some pointers to the stuff that used to be bleeding obvious because I've been using XP or Win7 for years, but now isn't.
I know that part of the problem is that we all tend to have different habits, and most of us don't even use the features that we are aware of, so writing such a "first 20 minutes with Windows 8" guide would inevitably cover stuff that many people would have no interest in, but moving to Windows 8 is feeling like much more work than moving to Windows 7 was.
@ Al Jones
Until you mentioned it, I forgot how good the installation process was. No problems with drivers.
One of the things that really amazed me was that I did an in-place upgrade from Windows 8 Consumer Preview to the Release Candidate when that came out - and *all the while it was installing the new OS files*, people were still talking to me on that machine on the Messenger app - all the networking and core application support was still running.
I was kind of amazed. It required a reboot and the end of course, so presumably Microsoft have used some sort of shadow copy approach to this.
Of course after it was released via MSDN I did a bare metal install.
Windows Update is a lot less intrusive too - I hardly even notice it now and it seems much quicker.
I haven't tried the built in 'Refresh Windows without losing data' or 'Factory settings reset' yet, but it looks promising that Microsoft are heading in that direction.
I still think that the desktop needs to be far more integrated. I used Start8 with the preview releases, and that made the new Start menu seem much easy to get to grips with. Now I don't use it, but I think Microsoft should look at these (Classic Shell, Start8) as examples, and build something in to a Service Pack that makes the desktop integration more seamless.
Also another slight downer is IE10's lack of compatibility with a lot of websites that don't have problems with Firefox or Chrome. I think that is probably the biggest disappointment - that after all this time, they still don't have the browser right. In the current market, that is unforgivable, and Microsoft really need to get the browser engine right, and quickly.
MS could have actually made some real gains with W8 - made it the OS you use when you want to get stuff done, rather than consume media.
In the time they've taken they could have re-written it to be safe from the ground up and far easier to use by building on what people already know how to do.
Instead they're chasing Apple like a cat after a laser. You'll be able to hear them hit the skirting board from here.
I'm amazed at how easy people are swayed by media hype. When Netbooks came out, the industry complained amongst themselves and leaked emails how they just shot themselves in the foot by creating Netbooks, which had to be priced lower then laptops and the profit margin was ridiculously low compared to laptops. Netbooks had 320gig or higher storage,2 gig mem,10.1 screen for about $250 or less on sale. Now come the tablets and all the peripherals to turn them into Netbooks,hint Keyboards, 1gig mem, 16,32,64 gig storage, when they first came out at an entry point of$499. Record sales and profit by the wheelbarrow full. Since the Kindle came out at $199 the rest of the pack had to lower their prices even tho the Kindle wasn't quite a Tablet, which millions didn't see, and they were more interested in the books. The tablets today at a lower entry price is still very very profitable vs the Netbook. The netbook still gives you more value for your money. By the time I put a vinyl or leather jacket around my 10" tablet to protect the screen, its as thick as a netbook. my 2 cents.
"When Netbooks came out, [...] Netbooks had 320gig or higher storage,2 gig mem,10.1 screen"
Rubbish. The first netbooks had 4GB flash storage and a 7" screen. It wasn't until MS and Intel stepped in to stop those being made that so-called netbooks morphed into simply being underspecc'd laptops that weren't really that cheap anymore.
It had nothing to do with Microsoft or Intel, it was the consumer.
People bought the low specced Netbook and once the novelty of having a device that was cheap and had a long battery life wore off, they found that actually, what they really needed to do anything useful was closer to a lower specced laptop. 4GB of storage ... sorry, but that doesn't go far these days.
The original Netbooks didn't really have much of an advantage over the larger mobiles with good screens when it came to browsing and email etc. And in the many situations where you could simply have used a laptop, then the Netbooks were really pretty pointless attempts at cost saving.
The best thing about the arrival of the Netbook was that it triggered a revisiting of the laptop form, and encouraged an evolution into making the more powerful device more portable and with longer battery life, and for that I am certainly thankful.
This is a bad idea, if you try to do both, you will do neither well. It's a bad idea from a software perspective, but even worse from a hardware perspective.
The reason people have tablets is because they are much more portable and easier to use (because of the reduced functionality and simpler OS) than laptops. A laptop that "converts" into a tablet is a stupid idea, because you lose the benefits that make people want a tablet in the first place. I guess Windows 8 will make a good tablet OS, but paying for it in terms of having to deal with the Metro mode on laptops and desktops is too high a price to pay. They confuse the market too much by running full Windows on tablets, they should have done Windows RT only (but with a better name) and the non-pro version of Surface only.
Adding a keyboard to a tablet is fine, this isn't new as Logitech and others were selling keyboard covers for iPad for a year or two now - if you do much typing this is necessary. But adding a keyboard to a tablet doesn't make it a laptop, even if it is running the same OS laptops do. Again, with Windows 8 on the Pro version of Surface and it's imitators, you can use the desktop version of Windows 8 on your tablet in keyboard and mouse mode. But having a keyboard that lets you type on your tablet in a pinch is different than expecting it to be a keyboard for normal PC computing. Those keyboard covers and foldable keyboards really suck for extended use, so it is not a substitute for a road warrior laptop usage model.
I think the direction Microsoft is going in trying to be all things to all people for both hardware and software is doomed to fail by trying to please everyone. They are deathly afraid of legitimizing tablets as a proper product category by jumping in with both feet, so they are trying to position this hybrid solution that keeps people's feet halfway in the PC world for both hardware and software.
This will fail, as it will result in too many dissatisfied customers in the long run who aren't happy with their purchase and might look Apple or Android's way for their next purchase as a result. iPads and Android tablets are limited in their functionality, and can never replace everything you can do with a laptop, but a huge number of people have more limited usage that fits beautifully into the tablet model. Microsoft's hedging on their tablet strategy will cause them to lose more and more of these people from the Windows world forever.
You could do both. ipad resolution is up to laptop res so no problems there. However, you need to switch to an ARM CPU in the screen when you detach so people don't run battery-killing software.
Don't try to do x86 tablets, just combine the expensive bits of hardware (i.e. screen & battery, wifi) so the company pays for it, but the user gets both. Integration between two OS's is probably too hard at this point, just get the hardware right.
This is a defensive play by MS. I don't think they are expecting profit, so that puts them on an equal cost basis with android. In fact, they'll probably subsidise it.
Personally I disagree. I've been using an HP TX2 (touch screen, convertible) for a few years and now with Windows 8 it actually has been a pleasure to use. It isn't as slim as an iPad, nor as 'cool'... but typically when I meet up with friends and we end up using our devices, the cool thing the iPad users do is pay for their parking using an app that is location aware. Lots of nice animations, very slick interface.
After that, it goes downhill, and we invariably end up using the old TX2 as it has a keyboard and I have a 'mobile mouse'. And it can run serious applications, not just apps.
This was before Windows 8 - and now with it, the iPad people are the ones who are impressed with the combination of being finger swipe friendly, but still a proper computer. I'll wait to see if the Surface Pro is worth spending money on, but currently i'm very happy with old hardware that now has a new lease of life.
I was a cynic about Windows 8 for a long time, especially the 'first 30 minutes' experience - but really once I persevered, it's a really good attempt, and a step in the right direction.
It's a possibility (I phrase that carefully). that actually what will happen is the reverse of what you foresee, and that in fact tablets will be supplanted by devices that also allow content creation, as consumers begin to want more functionality. A bit like the Netbook story...
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