back to article Ho ho ho! Apple's Samsung ban bid pushed back to Christmas

US Judge Lucy Koh has postponed any decision to permanently ban sales of Samsung's mobiles until 6 December - just in time for the Christmas rush. The request to remove Sammy's gear from shop shelves came from Apple, which had just trounced its tech rival in their ongoing epic patent lawsuit. The judge said that since both …

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  1. taxman
    Childcatcher

    What I'd like for Christmas....

    Well actually I'd like it before then. A ban on Apple vs Samsung news from El Reg until 20th September.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What I'd like for Christmas....

      Is the best mobile phone ever..... And it's not been made yet.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: What I'd like for Christmas....

        Next month, from Samsung, another new one. After the last best ever one ;)

        1. Shagbag

          More "Pro-Apple" Copy Published by El Reg

          Let's get this straight:

          The Galaxy Tab 10.1 was found not to infringe any patents and is due to be overturned on 20 Sept (I fail to see how it could be extended given the Jury clearly exhonourated it).

          Save for the Galaxy SII (which is coming close to the end of it's retail shelf life) all of the other phones are no longer selling in any meaningful quantities to the 'ban' won't affect Samsung's P&L in any meaningful sense.

          A pyric victory for Apple. Given the now-widely-reported-but-not-by-The-Register interview to Bloomber by the Jury Foreman it is almost a 'lay down misere' for a dismissal of verdict.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: More "Pro-Apple" Copy Published by El Reg

            *exonerated

            *so the 'ban'

            *pyrrhic

            You're welcome.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Just like your wife after 20 years of marriage

      She goes on and on and on and on and on and on.....

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What I'd like for Christmas....

      You'll be please to know that the Reg has stopped sending large intimidating men and woman around to it's readers houses and workplaces to force them to read articles about Samsung and Apple.

      Instead, like many other individuals with a free will you can choose not to read the articles in future.

      While this won't allow you to vent your frustration, a similar number of people will care what you think....

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

      Seems the single head jury member that lead all the others into their decision based HIS decision on a flawed understanding of how prior art works.. There is no way this could stand, given that a) a single jury member influenced all the others.. b) his understaning of Prior art was flawed and inconsistent with the paperwork they were given (but clearly couldn't be arsed to read as they had already decided the outcome on day 1)

      Mistrial in 5.4.3.2.1.....

      http://www.patentspostgrant.com/lang/en/2012/08/apple-jury-confuses-obviousness-analysis

      and here:

      http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120828225612963

      1. Steve Todd Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

        Ah yes, Groklaw, that highly impartial (read: rabidly partisan in Samsung's favour) organ.

        Try watching the full interview that the foreman gave Bloomberg ( http://www.bloomberg.com/video/jury-foreman-discusses-apple-samsung-trial-verdict-ikNjTofgRRecKM4cFXZoZA.html ), from which Groklaw cherry pick in an attempt to prove the verdict wrong. It ain't going to happen.

        1. hplasm
          Gimp

          Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

          "rabidly partisan"

          How fitting a choice of words...

        2. sueme2
          FAIL

          Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

          I did. I watched it a couple of times. On that man's logic, Samsung software will not run on Apple hardware, so Samsung can not infringe. Likewise, Apple does not infringe because Apple software can not run on Samsung hardware. Now, you go and watch it yourself, please, from beginning to end. Thanks.

          Total fail.

      2. dogged
        Go

        Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

        Yowch - from the patenspostgrant article:

        "After September 16th, defendants will have a choice to continue on to roll the dice at the district court with a jury trial of laypeople, or avail themselves of the new USPTO patentability trials of the AIA. The new trial proceedings of the AIA will be completed within 12-18 months of initiation and will be conducted before the USPTO’s Patent Trial & Appeal Board (PTAB).

        Unlike jurors, the decision makers of the PTAB are not laypeople. Rather, PTAB judges are experienced in the application of U.S. patent law and must additionally have an engineering and/or science background. In addition to the established expertise in technology and patent law, unlike the courts, PTAB judges do not accord patents a presumption of validity, nor do they require clear and convincing evidence to invalidate a patent. Indeed, patent claims are accorded a broadest reasonable interpretation at the USPTO, which makes them that much easier to invalidate."

        Trans: If Samsung aren't retarded and push for an AIA/PTAB hearing (as is their right as defendant), Apple are fucked six ways from Sunday.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    "Xerox PARC raider "

    Is El Reg's mission in life to become the fine purveyors of complete bullshit now?

    Apple paid Xerox for the privilege.

    Read up.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Alternatively

      http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/15/business/company-news-xerox-sues-apple-computer-over-macintosh-copyright.html

      1. Steve Todd Silver badge
        Stop

        Re: Alternatively

        Read page 5 of the link he provided. Xerox suing Apple is covered.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Alternatively

          Yes, so the article states, Apple stole the idea from Xerox, Xerox sued Apple, Apple paid up, and fanbois ever since have proudly crowed that Apple paid Xerox for the privilege of using it, forgetting to mention that they paid up only after getting caught.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sure

    Bring on the appeals and counter appeals and let the roadshow/circus continue.

    Meantime, keep bringing out new models cheaply and make consumers happy.

    On a side note, why doesnt Apple sue the Chinese & other clone makers? Just asking.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Sure

      IP laws of China work exclusively for the Chinese. Apple already realised that throughout the iPad trademark farce.

      Also they're not such a big business, carriers don't sell them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Apple already realised that throughout the iPad trademark farce.

        The nerve of those Chinese not having the same "dummy corporation purchase" rules as we have here in the irreproachable US.

        Worse than the "morning wood" laws in Sweden.

  4. Steve Evans

    This is going to drag on for years!

    Progress is always built on the shoulders of others. Trying to prevent this through dubious patents is pure protectionism. The entire Japanese motorcycle industry was built on the back of European motorcycle designs, and then improved upon.

    BTW I couldn't help notice that a drag down notification bar put in an appearance on the iPhone in IOS4... I wonder where they got that idea from *cough* Android *cough*. Mind the dismount, those high horses are a dangerous thing to ride.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Thumb Down

      Oh yes, the notification bar. One thing that Google has applied for a patent in 2009 but not been granted so far.

      When, and if, it is granted I'm sure Apple will have to change theirs enough so it doesn't infringe anymore, or they can license it from Google. That's how the industry works and Apple has to play that game like any other company (remember when Nokia sued Apple and got 600 million?)

      How many features - many already granted - did Samsung copy however? More than 80 according to their own documents, and that's not even going into trade dress or design.

      1. Jedit
        Black Helicopters

        "Google has applied for a patent in 2009 but not been granted so far."

        That's amazing. Apple seem to be granted patents for every random obvious thing they come up with and there's not a moment's delay, but Google come up with a functional design and put it into use and it takes three years. Rather appropriate that Ghostbusters was on Antique Code Show today, as this quote springs to mind:

        "Do you know how much a patent clerk earns?"

        Seems to me that Apple do, and they're happy to generously supplement that wage as the need arises.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Black Helicopters

          Paranoia is the right icon

          I've heard it all now, not satisfied with claiming the judge and jury had been bought now you're moved on to claiming Apple has bought the patent office. The president himself can't be too far.

          Reality however is patents take whatever time they take to get through, some of Apple's have taken much longer than that. But yes, keep coming up with excuses and ignoring the actual issues that got Samsung fingers burnt in this case.

          ps: You'll have to explain how showing a notification at the top of the screen and pulling down box with past notification is less obvious than what Apple has patented, but maybe another day. I'm already over the daily dose of hypocrisy allowed by my doctor.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Paranoia is the right icon

            Hah, thought you said "payments" take a while to get through. yeah, sometimes they do ;)

          2. John 104

            Re: Paranoia is the right icon

            @Nince Circles

            You'll have to explain how showing a notification at the top of the screen and pulling down box with past notification is less obvious than what Apple has patented, but maybe another day. I'm already over the daily dose of hypocrisy allowed by my doctor

            It is no less obvious than round corners or "look and feel" characteristics that Apple is suing on. Somehow it is OK for Apple but not for google?

          3. Local Group
            Thumb Down

            " not satisfied with claiming the judge and jury had been bought..."

            "now you're moved on to claiming Apple has bought the patent office."

            You probably should add Samsung's lawyers to your list for not challenging Foreman Hogan during voir dire.

        2. iucidium
          Trollface

          Re: "Google has applied for a patent in 2009 but not been granted so far."

          Y'know what's going to happen - it'll get denied because 'it should be a standard'

          Not like rectangles with rounded corners, data tapping, pinch-to-zoom, multi touch, icons, ad nauseum

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW. And the Germans probably copied features of the Czech Tatra T77 for the Beetle.... or 911 as some like to call the newer versions these days ;)

      And why are Porsche, VW and Audi not suing each other for the Cayenne, Touareg and Q7? Something to do with them all being related companies and building all 3 in the same factory in Bratislava ;)

      1. Mika Peltokorpi
        Happy

        Why to sue own?

        "And why are Porsche, VW and Audi not suing each other for the Cayenne, Touareg and Q7?" That's because Porche is practically owned by Volkswagen (soon to merge to VW as Porche was about to go titsup by trying to buy all shares of VW) and two latter ones belong to the VAG GmbH (Vokswagen-Audi Group). Also Seat and Bugatti are owned by Volkswagen. There might be also some other brands owned by VAG that I can not remember at the moment.

        The only thing I have never got was the fact that Ford Galaxy was long time basically the same product with Seat Alhambra and Volkswagen Sahran. All were built in same Spanish factory and on top of the same chasssis. Only body and interior were changed according to the product specs.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW

        If that is a reference to the BSA Bantam being a flipped version of the DKW, the DKW design was given over as war reparations.

        They may have copied features of other DKW designs but I'm not au fait with those.

        1. Inquisitive
          Unhappy

          Re: Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW

          No wonder my Bantam fell to bits.

          1. Stoneshop Silver badge

            Re: Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW

            No wonder my Bantam fell to bits.

            There were a couple of bullet holes in the drawings.

            The early (1950..1960) Japanese motorcycles did a lot of borrowing from Britbikes, and to a lesser extent German designs. And Suzuki gained quite a bit of technology when Ernst Degner defected from East Germany and went to work for them, bringing a fair pile of two-stroke knowhow with him (the DDR-based MZ factory had, at that time, arguably the best two-stroke engineering in the world, and despite shortcomings in manufacturing had managed to win a significant number of races). Don't know what kind and amount of fuss was raised by the DDR over this, but I doubt they filed lawsuits.

            And then there's the Russian Ural motorcycle, based on a pre-war BMW. It's still debated whether Germany actually licensed the design (as part of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact), or that a number were smuggled out of Germany and reverse-engineered. Initially the Germans would likely have cared little if the latter was the case, and after initiating their self-destruction declaring war on the Russians a lawsuit over a copied design wouldn't have had any additional impact whatsoever.

  5. Scott Pedigo
    Holmes

    It Seemed A Little Too Quick

    I remember how phones looked before the iPhone came out, and I remember all the doubts being expressed about a touch-screen phone when the iPhone did come out. It's success was not a foregone conclusion, though with 20-20 hindsight, the success of Apple's MP3 players would have been a hint. There were smart phones from Nokia, and phones did have screens with icons, but they weren't touch screens. Looking at iPhones and Android phones (I have a Galaxy SII), it is obvious to me that Google copied the iPhone look and feel. Which means that Google and/or Samsung did rip off Apple.

    I say that while not being an Apple fan, because I have never liked Apple's closed system philosophy since day 1, back before they even had the first Mac. I will never buy an iPad because I am not going to be forced to transfer files through iTunes software, and also because I won't pay outrageous prices for more RAM. I admire the products, but consider them overpriced and too restrictive. So if a competitor makes something almost as good, without the restrictions, I'll buy it.

    In the case of the Galaxy SII, in my opinion it is BETTER than an iPhone, in every respect.

    So Google did rip off the look and feel, but then Samsung took the idea and ran with it, and has been making the phones better, which is the only way to actually get people to buy them. Nobody wants second best.

    What bugs me is this: I have the sneaking suspicion that the courts support whichever side is based in their own country. Apple got ripped off on the iPhone name in China. Now I think Samsung has not gotten a fair hearing in the U.S. I'm not saying I think they should have won, I'm saying the U.S. jury was biased and probably had made up its mind to vote for the home-town hero regardless.

    I have a couple of Apple MP3 players. But this lawsuit won't make me want to go out and buy more Apple products, quite the reverse.

    1. Pooka

      Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

      "What bugs me is this: I have the sneaking suspicion that the courts support whichever side is based in their own country."

      Didn't South Korea tell Samsung and Apple not to be naughty and fine both of them? Or is my memory a bit addled thanks to a stupid day of work....

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

        Whereas the British court told Apple to take a a hike. And apologise publicly.

    2. Stoneshop Silver badge

      Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

      Nobody wants second best.

      I want good enough, and for the right price.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

        Yeah, they do, they buy Apple knowingly ;)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

        Nobody wants second best.

        I want the best, for a good price. Guess that rules out the Fruity Company on both counts ;)

    3. Alex Rose
      FAIL

      Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

      "There were smart phones from Nokia, and phones did have screens with icons, but they weren't touch screens"

      I'm curious as to which universe you live in?

      1. Scott Pedigo
        Holmes

        Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

        The universe of people who had a non-smart Nokia phone or a Sony Ericsson phone with a small color screen, which did show icons for various functions, and cursor keys or a little nub to push with your thumb in order to select the icon, before then clicking some OK button or select button to pull up whatever that icon did. You might be thinking, duh, but my first mobile phone only had text, no graphics at all, and was totally menu driven. So I was making the point that Apple didn't invent the idea of using icons (versus a hierarchy of text menus), but they did pioneer the use of touch screens for activating those icons. See the difference? Perhaps you were born after text menus had died out.

        1. Templar
          Facepalm

          Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

          Scott Pedigo - "So I was making the point that Apple didn't invent the idea of using icons (versus a hierarchy of text menus), but they did pioneer the use of touch screens for activating those icons. See the difference?"

          So, my Sony Ericsson P800 (and all the P series) didn't have icons and a touch screen:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Ericsson_P800

          Nor all my Xda's which I had from the practically unusable original (2003?) to the Xda Exec and Xda mini S, which was released in 2005, nearly 2 years before the iphone.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O2_Xda

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone

          Did Apple pioneer the pinch function, or did they pinch it?

          1. Dazed and Confused

            Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

            OK, so not a phone, but a smart phone is just a small computer, the HP150 had a touch screen in the early 80s. Many of the features of the iPhone or Android interface are similar to the way that worked, all them years ago.

          2. mickey mouse the fith

            Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

            I had a Sony_Ericsson_P800 back in the early 2000`s.

            It had rounded corners and a touchscreen with a grid of icons. Prior art, or am I missing something?

            Apple are so full of shit, I really hope google/samsung throw a spanner in the next Iphone launch by presenting something that gets it removed from sale.

            What goes around comes around as the saying goes.

          3. Chet Mannly

            Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

            "Scott Pedigo - "So I was making the point that Apple didn't invent the idea of using icons (versus a hierarchy of text menus), but they did pioneer the use of touch screens for activating those icons. See the difference?"

            2 words for you Scott - Palm Pilot. Palm was using icons on a touch screen a decade before the iphone was even thought of.

      2. Rob
        WTF?

        Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

        I'm glad you said that Alex as I too was wondering what planet this commentard has been residing on for the past few years.

        I have a drawer full of Windows/HTC touch screen phones that I was using years before the iPhone/Android lot came out to play.

    4. DeepS

      Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

      I remember how my Palm Tungsten T5 looked before the iPhone came out and I thought the iPhone looked just a little too similar. Sure, the iPhone was optimized to be used with your finger instead of stylus and had multitouch but the form factor was close and the interface was a grid of icons. I chalked up as a natural evolution of technology and didn't cry foul.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

        Weren't Handspring a little similar too?

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

      Agree 100% about Samsung et al. making better gear spooking Apple. And with it looking like an international trade war with folks taking sides, with "patents" as the official reason.

      And yes, I don't think this is going to encourage anyone to buy Apple gear. After all this, why?

    6. Chet Mannly

      Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

      "Looking at iPhones and Android phones (I have a Galaxy SII), it is obvious to me that Google copied the iPhone look and feel"

      You mean apart from having multiple homes screens as well as a launcher, the device theme being predominately black, widgets, facial recognition, different fonts being used, multiple 3rd party launcher/homescreens, etc etc etc

      - ie completely different.

      I call BS on you owning a Galaxy SII - you are too much of an Apple fanboi...

      the Galaxy SII has a glass/metal case, external aerial that you need to hold in a particular way, the same size screen, weighs the same, and has the same operating system

      -

  6. Scott Broukell
    Boffin

    Octagonal

    After the careful application with a miniature disc cutter hobby tool and some very fine sanding my Samsung is now very much octagonal - does that mean I can keep it please Mr Apples. (I've also been along to the local patent office, so there)

    Logo - cos i was wearin me safety goggles wern it.

    1. Steve Todd Silver badge
      FAIL

      Way to go!

      You've damaged your device and voided your warrantee for something that the jury said no, Samsung hadn't infringed. Samsung wouldn't have been required to recall the devices even if they had, simply pay damages.

      Is this a common trait among Samsung users?

      1. pepper
        Holmes

        Re: Way to go!

        Ì think the word 'Woosh' is quite apt to apply in this situation.

        1. Steve Todd Silver badge

          Re: Way to go!

          True, but I don't think it applies to the people that you think it does.

      2. This post has been deleted by its author

      3. VinceH

        Re: Way to go!

        "Is this a common trait among Samsung users?"

        Having a sense of humour? Why, yes, I do believe it is.

        (Withdrawn and posted again without the silly mistake. Oi, Reg, EDIT OPTION, PLEASE!)

  7. goodbyegti
    WTF?

    IP madness

    Intellectual property is seriously out of control. All this legal nonsense is ultimately paid for by the consumer, whilst the leeches, ahem, lawyers, end up as winners on both sides. It's a disgrace.

    Worth a look:

    Orley Ashenfelter, David Bloom, "Lawyers as Agents of the Devil in a Prisoner's Dilemma Game"

  8. Mika Peltokorpi
    FAIL

    Nokia DID have touch screen phone. Nokia 770

    "There were smart phones from Nokia, and phones did have screens with icons, but they weren't touch screens. Looking at iPhones and Android phones (I have a Galaxy SII), it is obvious to me that Google copied the iPhone look and feel. Which means that Google and/or Samsung did rip off Apple."

    Wrong assessment: Nokia launched 2003 infamous Series 90 7700 "ear phone" that was ridiculed out of market and upgraded to Nokia 7710 next year (2004). Not to mention Nokia 770 Internet Tablet (2006).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_7700

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_7710

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_770

    All of which were introduced before iPhone (2007).

    More about Nokia product range:

    http://www.dailymobile.net/2009/08/26/list-of-all-nokia-phones-ever-made-since-1982/

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Nokia DID have touch screen phone. Nokia 770

      Guess they "thought different" ha ha.

    2. pepper

      Re: Nokia DID have touch screen phone. Nokia 770

      Actually, the Nokia 770 is from 2005. Small fact and doesnt invalidate your point.. so yeah im a bit pedantic today.

      Then again, I have a N900 so the 770 is like the great great grandfather of the 900.

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

  9. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge
    Devil

    From now on ....

    ... settle all patent disputes with a MMA cage fight between company CEOs. To the death.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: From now on ....

      "Current" CEOs :P

  10. Frosty840

    "Sammy"

    Just a point, Sammy are actually Sega's parent/holding company.

  11. Alan Denman

    Koh's wise cracks.

    I'm sure Koh started the ball rolling by siding with Apple at the start.

    The wise cracks were very much out of balance to a serious situation.

    The whole thing is an only in America farce.

    Apple have also swiped NFC with their new patent for an old new way to empty your wallet.

  12. dssf

    “Contempt proceeding” is starting to sound like

    CONTEMPTUOUS proceedings...

  13. This post has been deleted by its author

  14. Highlander

    How can anyone in Apple, Samsung or any other tech...

    How can anyone in Apple, Samsung or any other tech company claim to have originated any of this stuff? Touch screen tablet devices? Touch screen phones (in reality little more than shrunken touch screen tablets with phone capability)?

    The concepts that these devices lean upon existed long before anyone had the technology necessary to put an actual device together. That's kind of the thing about science fiction, you know? PADDs, Tricorders, and so on and so forth. The concepts embodied in the fictional devices ultimately lead to real devices once the technology is there to support it.

    As for obviousness, if you have a roughly pad sized touch screen device, and you're using a GUI related to a WIMP interface, then a grid of icons that you select by tapping is a completely obvious solution. So's that rectangular shape. I mean really none of this should be patentable at all, all this BS with software patents has gone too far, there are so many applications that the USPTO can't properly evaluate them, and then corporates choose to use these horribly weak, but granted, patents in legal action against their competition. Pretty bloody sad that they can;t compete with products and choose instead to compete with dubious patents in and attempt to bully competitors.

    Pathetic. USPTO should be ashamed, US legislature should be ashamed, US courts should be ashamed, Apple should be ashamed. It's time that this nonsense stopped, patents are becoming meaningless.

    1. dirk_diggler
      Mushroom

      Re: How can anyone in Apple, Samsung or any other tech...

      I know that, you know that, every other person apart from iFans, some gimp who has an overly broad invalid patent himself, doesn't understand how they work then .somehow. got himself appointed jury foreman, and Lucy Koh, trying desperately to make sure no-one thinks she's siding with the Korean company know that.

      To any sane person this is all bullshit. The only way Samsung could have copied Apple's trade dress was by selling phones branded as Apple iPhones. And then software shouldn't be patentable anyway.

  15. Local Group
    Facepalm

    Kimchi

    That means treble damages in Korean.

  16. JaitcH
    Happy

    No fat filings ...

    Most courts have Rules and in these Rules are specifications for paperwork submitted to the court.

    They also prefer printed material to handwritten submissions. Some even welcome CD/DVD filings.

    I was sued by Sabre, the airline reservation people, and after some printer tweaking, fiddling with wont sizes and styles, and line spacing as well as carefully narrowing the margins, I found I could get almost a full page of single line spaced text into a court acceptable "double spaced" specification.

    Fortunately, many courts do not stipulate fonts and the narrow versions really work wonders.

    P.S. I won the case brought by Sabre.

  17. Turgut Kalfaoglu

    Will never buy Apple again

    After seeing their abuse of the patent system and their mud slinging in courts -- not to mention their starving of Chinese workers while they make billions, I refuse to buy any more Apple products.

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