back to article US appeal dismissed in Dotcom case

The USA has suffered another rebuff in its attempts to extradite Kim Dotcom, with Judge Winkelmann of the High Court of New Zealand upholding a previous disclosure order made by Judge David Harvey. The previous order had required the FBI to disclose an extensive amount of documentation to support its application for Dotcom’s …


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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward


    As much as I dislike the mass scale piracy of this DotCom character I dislike the idea that the US Government seem to think they can impose their will around the world with little resistance by governments.

    1. LarsG


      Its great to see the Judiciary working in the correct way. It shows the independence of the Judges in New Zealand that they can stand up to the bullying of the US. Justice is not one sided there.

      Unlike here in the UK where senior Judges have their hands tied by the Government that when the US comes demanding they hold up their hands and say they can do nothing about it. Bullies always prey on the weak, and that's what we show ourselves to be.

      1. Anonymous Coward 101

        Re: Kudos

        'Unlike here in the UK where senior Judges have their hands tied by the Government that when the US comes demanding they hold up their hands and say they can do nothing about it.'

        No, the UK has an independent judiciary as well. The judges here are simply applying the law as it stands just like in NZ, whether the laws are stupid or not.

        1. Mad Mike

          Re: Kudos

          'No, the UK has an independent judiciary as well. The judges here are simply applying the law as it stands just like in NZ, whether the laws are stupid or not.'

          The only problem is, in order to apply a law, you have to have some vague notion of what its about. No law is absolutely black and white and they need interpreting. That's what judges do. To interpret them, you need to have some idea of the subject metter, hence judges (just like barristers) have specialities. Difference is, in the UK they like to give these sorts of cases to judges with absolutely no experience or knowledge of the area at all. Copyright violation is one such case in point.

          Also, the judiciary in the UK is not independent. If you look at how they're appointed, you will notice that the top man is appointed by the government and therefore control is maintained.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good

      The FBI will not disclose what information they have?

      What are they hiding, probably that the RIAA and the MPAA lobby grouped have paid so much into the Presidential coffers that they own them. There are some dodgy links here that they do not want to disclose.

      1. Dave Bell

        Re: Good

        If nothing else, there is a long history of losses from "piracy" being over-valued. There needs to be a degree of trust for extradition procedures to work, without becoming an actual trial, and it is looking as though the copyright lobby has begun to lose the necessary trust. Add the extra-territoriality questions--I assume there are relevant laws in NZ, so why extradite anyway--and I can imagine a Judge wanting to know more about just what is going on. Enough has happened that "can I trust these people" becomes a significant question.

      2. Fatman

        Re: Good

        From the article:

        As noted by NZ’s LawGeekNZ blog, the disclosure would cover communications between US authorities and the MPAA and RIAA on behalf of copyright owners..

        That alone would make for some interesting, and potentially embarrassing reading. Could it be that the MAFIAA doesn't want the rest of the world to know that they `own` the US Government.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Standard Chartered

      Standard Chartered accused of laundering Iranian money by the US.

      British firm admits, up to a point that it has. UK Government hides under the kitchen table.

      Shares begin to collapse.

      Quicky they offer to Pay a fine to the US for bending the rules over laundering Iranian money.

      Charges are dropped

      Shares rise.

      Someone makes a lot of money!

      Eventhough there should have been a criminal action against the Directors?

      One rule for one, one rule for another.

      1. Tom 38

        Re: Standard Chartered

        I'm not convinced about SC/Iran tbh. It wasn't the SEC that went after them, it was the finance dept of NY state, a state which is perilously close to broke. They find 'massive evidence of illegality', and threaten to not allow SC to operate in NY, but then a quick bung and everything is gravy again.

        None of that money went to the Federal government, it all went into NY state coffers.

        1. David Beck

          Re: Standard Chartered

          The Fed case was slow rolled but now they will have to act or look like the FSA. Expect the Feds to act on the excellent e-mail evidence of SC's planned deception, that part is criminal and could gets Sands some time in the clink. The BoE is on SC's side of course, ass-holes to the end.

    4. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

      Re: Good

      Well it worked on ALL the Injuns and on ALL Australians. Maybe New Zealand was a bridge too far?

      (IIRC they kept out of Vietnam too; the bloody commies!

      They need Nuking!!)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @I.Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects Re: Good

        "(IIRC they kept out of Vietnam too; the bloody commies!"

        No, you don't remember correctly.

        I think you owe an apology to the family and friends of the 37 Kiwis who died in the Vietnam war.

        Wind your bl**dy neck in and think before you hit the keyboard.

      2. Youngone Silver badge

        Re: Good

        Nope, we sent artillary to Vietnam, a good friend of my mother in law's fought there. Also some Engineers I think. Anyway, we can't be nuked, we have a nuclear free law. So there.

        1. Mad Mike

          Re: Good

          Not only did NZ send engineers and artillery, but they also sent combat troops including a detachment of the NZ SAS.

      3. Long John Brass

        Re: Good

        AFAIK there were Kiwi troops in 'Nam

    5. Joe K

      Re: Good

      Same here, i initially couldn't give a shit what happened to that arrogant semi-criminal, but as details have come out i've come to realise that the actions of the US copyright-kidnap squad are not just worse, but are actually terrifying.

      1. Philip Lewis
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Good


        You have demonstrated the ability to understand the "concepts" of the event, rather than the "specifics" and from that, analyse the events and reach a conclusion that what has actually happened is actually somewhat horrifying.

        It is easy to get lost in the details, and antipathy towards one of the players (USA, Dotcom, "Pirates", NZ judiciary, the Macarena, etc.), one needs to avoid such things and see the big picture

        pip pip!

        ... and I wish more posters here at El Reg could demonstrate the same capability

        Paris : Upvoted

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good

      Yes, its very refreshing to see a country stand up to the US bully boy tactics.

      Oh and I hope the RIAA and MPAA are hemorrhaging money over this :)

    7. Psyx

      Re: Good

      Although I do firmly believe that the slimeball has it coming in one way or another, I don't want to see it be via extradition to the US.

      Maybe he could choke on a burger, or perhaps just get done for copyright infringement in the country that he's already in. Or both. That'd be good.

    8. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward


      oh the irony!

    9. Field Marshal Von Krakenfart

      Re: Good

      If the FBI have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear.

      Or does that only apply to other people?

    10. laird cummings

      Re: Good

      US Federal law enforcement has been a confluence of arrogance, ignorance, incompetence, and ego ever since the days of J. Edgar. Possibly even before that. It's mostly, I think, due to the fact that they're largely useless on a day-to-day basis, and must find ways to justify their existance.

      Kim DotCon is slimy, but the US District Attorney in this case is slimer.

  2. nuked

  3. Alex Schneider

    "...constrained in his or her ability..."

    I know that fat cells make estrogen but come on, that's a little harsh.

  4. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
    Black Helicopters

    Is there any change that HM Gov will listen to this?

    Nah, about as much chance as... <insert highly unlikely scenario here>

    The Mayor of London winning the 100m at the 2014 Olympics.

    1. Malcolm Weir Silver badge

      Re: Is there any change that HM Gov will listen to this?

      The 2014 Olympics, taking place in Sochi, Russia, are Winter games, so the chance of anyone winning the 100m is remote due to the lack of such an event.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Is there any change that HM Gov will listen to this?

        'The 2014 Olympics, taking place in Sochi, Russia, are Winter games, so the chance of anyone winning the 100m is remote due to the lack of such an event.'

        That might have been the crux of it, yes.

      2. Daf L

        Re: Is there any change that HM Gov will listen to this?

        Yes, you would've thought the the OP's "<insert highly unlikely scenario here>" would've given that away?

  5. Mystic Megabyte

    One rule for the mega-rich

    The FBI should be using their resources to investigate bankers in the USA. It is the bankers who seem to be undermining capitalism and will bring about its downfall, not some teenagers downloading movies.

  6. tkioz

    Sensible judgement... though one wonders if the shredders will be working over-time tonight...

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oi! Theresa May, you paying attention?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Of course she is, she'll be all chuffed so she can go "See, the UK are nice and submissive, not like those naughty New Zealanders"

      1. Gordon 10

        Whilst I agree with the sentiment

        The scenario's are not the same.

        This was an independent judiciary deciding that in the interests of a fair extradition hearing this evidence needs to be disclosed.

        May is not the judiciary - she is part of the legislative arm of the government - multiple members of the judiciary have ruled there is no basis for McKinnon's or Assanges extraditions not going ahead and now its in the hands of May to basically decide on a whim.

      2. Steve I

        "Of course she is, she'll be all chuffed so she can go "See, the UK are nice and submissive, not like those naughty New Zealanders" "

        You forgot to add "Bend over further? Certainly..."

  8. Evil Auditor Silver badge

    " his or her ability..."

    Not that I'm interested in that but hasn't his or her sex been determined by now?

    1. auburnman

      Re: " his or her ability..."

      Kim is an asexual name, if the Judge hasn't been looking at the media circus he or she probably doesn't know Dotcom's sex. Assuming that this is what the Judge has been doing, kudos for properly maintaining impartiality.

      1. Medium Dave

        Re: " his or her ability..."

        The judge was actually talking in general about the Bill of Rights at that point (follow the link, see sec. 117 of the PDF if you're really bored). It's El Reg's editing that makes it look a little androgynous.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    NZ can afford to be more "stroppy" than the UK,,,..

    as it has already p**sed off the yanks with the anti nuclear ships policy in the 80s. Plus there is little economic or political fallout from such a small nation annoying such a big one (the US does not look too bad if embarrassed by someone who can be ignored). Whereas the UK and Aus have their "special relationship" to look after.

    Should we expect planeloads of political refugees with dosh to migrate to NZ in the hope of escaping extradition? (Assange, you can stay in Ecuador).

  10. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Where IT is all going pear shaped in the rotten barrels of apples?

    Oi! Theresa May, you paying attention? .... Anonymous Coward Posted Thursday 16th August 2012 06:31 GMT

    Well said/asked, AC. The consequences of the likes of her deafness in such matters of state and non-state action, and an ignoble inability to lead smartly and decisively in the bigger picture and in Great Games Plays in those now being presented future bigger picture, will have dire results for her ilk in every land with politically incorrect and really virtually impotent executive administration.

    With sub prime ministerial politics and the parliamentary democracy model on the verge of being outed universally as a ponzi charade for the psychotically delusional and vainly afflicted, to be replaced by an revealing and quite revolutionary internetworking machine code which shares all for the global convenience of advanced intelligence phormation and/or curious discovery and fabulous metadatamining, rather than as is the past folly dragged into current default for inconvenient truths which grow ever stronger to be aired and heard and seen and given the light of zeroday vulnerability exploitation, their secretion and mindless classification as a threat to national and international security in the wrong hands and hearts and minds, which they are in their hands and hearts and minds.

    Universal publicity purges and destroys all those deadly idiotic type viruses and also ensures, with a failsafe guarantee, that they never ever are able and enabled to return to blight and corrupt their hosts.

    And that is what a deft and adept and sublimely protected and stealthy Office of Cyber Security and Information Assurance and Intelligence Phormation Operations does, and can do it for you too with IT and Augmentative Reality Media Command and Control of Computers and Communications in Creative CyberSpace, which is proprietary intellectual property you are free to make great use of to your hearts content but not sell without permission nor abuse to make or take unfair advantage of anyone or anything anywhere.

    The penalty then is an immediate swift execution of a series of orders that dismiss and remove from active duty and infection that and those ilks and viruses. And on that matter in smarter more advanced intelligence communities, is no further elaborate discussion required.

    Knock, knock, knock ..... GCHQ. Wakey, wakey. Time for some certified certifiable action and/or HyperRadioProActive IT in the Quantum Communications Field of Dreams and AIMemes into Live Operational Virtual Environments ........with Global Operating Devices beaming forth and broadbandcasting Radical Fundamental Existentialism? Or is that way beyond any curious limiting remit which may be imagined to be government imposed to protect their feathered cuckoo nest position and present state intelligence and current personnel abilities?

    RSVP ..... amfM. Silence is a viable and acceptable option only for the dumb and hard of hearing, but/and for all others a sure sign of catastrophic weaknesses and vulnerabilities to be systematically and ruthlessly exploited in the field.

    Methinks there is no ambiguity in any or all of that, and thus can we all proceed as needs be and as will be decided by Blighty's actions and reply ........ or not as the case the may be.

    What a great day it is to set sail in a Virtual Armada.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Where IT is all going pear shaped in the rotten barrels of apples?

      Despite the way I admire how you put things in such a way that they really do put across your point with context intact, I can't help wondering if you are a William Gibson creation. Sometimes. :)

    2. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: Where IT is all going pear shaped in the rotten barrels of apples?

      Your kind comment is duly noted, and very much appreciated, AC, and I might like to add the following to the end of the post ... Where IT is all going pear shaped in the rotten barrels of apples? ..... to give it more body and sense and more direction for consideration and engagement ........

      What a great day it is to set sail in a Virtual Armada ....... with AI and IT leading with Media Programming and Producing Direction within Future Derivative Projects for Sublime Presentation of Realities Imagined and Virtualised in Fab Manufacturing Processes ..... with SMARTR Lab Rats in CHAOS Control of Surreal Alienating Power Systems.

      Enterprising SAP Systems but not as you know them, or have expected them to be in Command and Control of IT and Media Future Presentations and Derivative Productions.

      Vorsprung durch AITechnICQ.

      If Blighty Bonker Bods and Boffins are not up to the task, you can be sure that Teutonic Precision Engineering will always save and seize the day, and share and show ab fab and fabless lead in the WAI?

      And only shared there as a question so that you can wallow in the comfort of a disconcerting doubt which beggars you with disbelief.

    3. Roger Kynaston
      Thumb Up

      Re: Where IT is all going pear shaped in the rotten barrels of apples?

      Well doe that Martian. Been missing you as well.

      1. Luther Blissett


        All the best functions permit variable numbers of arguments - as functional and declarative languages demonstrate. As we are propelled half-knowingly towards 2013 Intel cores, so procedural languages with their prescriptive command-and-control metaphor look increasingly merely as the outmoded paradigm.

        1. Vic

          Re: +1

          > As we are propelled half-knowingly towards 2013 Intel cores

          Errr - Whut?


  11. Thomas 4
    Thumb Up


    This is turning into a remarkably entertaining day for legal vultures on El Reg, what with all the fun goings on at the Ecuadorian embassy as well.

    It's a damn sight more entertaining than the Apple/Samsung crap that's been going on.

  12. Amorous Cowherder

    I think Dotcom is an arsehole quite frankly but I have to admire the guy's luck and just comical this whole fiasco really is!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      When I first read the reports about him, I agree he sounded like an arsehole. But my opinion was mainly based on the way he spent his money, which lets face it, is no ones business except for Kim.

      After seeing him in interviews and in court, he comes across as a very intelligent and reasonable person - quite the opposite of those who have put him in court. I don't think the current developments are anything to do with 'luck' - I'm sure he knows exactly what he's doing.

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "High Court of New Zealand"

    Ah, no it isn't the "High Court of New Zealand", it's just the Auckland high Court which is a local court.

    In Australia, the High Court is at the top of the legal pile, in NZ it's nothing like that.

    Criminal courts in NZ are called, in order of increasing importance, District Court, High Court, Court of Appeal, and Supreme Court. Whilst the District and High Courts are local courts, the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court are national bodies that preside in the capital.

    The hearing reported is an appeal from the District Court to the High Court, and its rulings may be further appealed to the Court of Appeal. If given leave to appeal - not automatic - a case may be further appealed to the Supreme Court. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if this small sub-part of the whole can'o'worms goes all the way to the top.

    I reckon ther's every chance that there won't be a substantive hearing on the extradition this side of Christmas 2013.

  14. Medium Dave


    Although, in my opinion, Kim is a total arse (seriously, what sort of tosser changes his name to 'Dotcom'? ) and is probably as guilty as hell, it's nice to see the courts tell MPAA and RIAA to fuck off.

    1. RICHTO

      Re: Good.

      The sort of tosser who has lots more money than you?

      He is guilty of nothing more than following the requirements of the DMCA - taking down content when notified. The MPAA didnt like the fact that he didnt delete the content - he only removed the specific URL complained about - but he had no obligation to do so - and this would have prevented due process in preventing DMCA counter notices being filed.

      I hope he sues the US Governemnt and wins damages for his loss of business....

  15. Vic


    > the disclosure would cover communications between US authorities and the MPAA

    > and RIAA on behalf of copyright owners.

    A tenner says the US will withdraw all extradition proceedings rather than disclose that communication...


    1. Fatman

      Re: Interesting...disclosures...

      I would suggest that the MAFIAA leadership is probably shitting bricks over that requirement.

      Ponder this possibility:

      The MAFIAA, unable to use civil courts and remedies to smack down Megaupload, convinces the US DOJ, to engage in this clumsy operation solely for the purpose of smacking Megaupload down. There is documentary evidence to that effect, and now, according to the NZ courts, must be disclosed. Now what the fuck does the MAFIAA do? If this documentation does get released, it could result in a shit storm for the MAFIAA; while if it doesn't, then the NZ courts are not likely to play ball.

      Here is the interesting aspect, if the docs get released, and the suspected smoking gun is found; would the MAFIAA members face the possibility of civil suits from DotCom. The prospect of seeing varied MAFIAA leaders (metaphorically speaking) hung by the balls in public, is just too delicious.

      BTW, is `` available???

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward


    Dotcom is currently hiding in the Ecuadorian Ambassadorial office in New Zealand

    1. RICHTO

      Re: Apparently

      Yes - he has been accused of shagging the FBI hard by surprise and without a condom!

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Hey G-Men

    Suffer in ya jocks!

  18. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

    Providing Balance to the Scales of Blind Justice and Bigotted Opinion aka Arrogant Ignorance

    Will all those commenting negatively on Kim Dotcom, please sit back and relax and watch this NZ news report and learn a lot more about the case than is generally made known, which is a shame and right dodgy move, but quite understandable I suppose whenever there is no real case to answer or crime to prosecute? ....... Kim Dotcom Exclusive Interview 'I will fight this and win'

    And please, don't confirm that title trait in yourself, by not taking just 25 minutes to watch/listen to the video and learn a great deal more than is convenient and helpful for a crooked system bent on exposing its faults to one and all.

    1. Anonymous Dutch Coward
      Thumb Up

      ManFromMars: Re: Providing Balance to the Scales... etc

      Hi Martian,

      Are you ok? That last post was readable!!

      Regardless, thanks for the content - I agree that whatever Kim may have appeared to be, what the US tried to pull was infinitely worse.

  19. Shane Kent

    Land of the Free...

    now I know what they mean by "you owe me a keyboard".

    If DotCOM wins does he get put on the list with Canada? If so, I feel bad for him, because I haven't slept since they put us on that list ;)

    Most of what the world uses is tech developed in the USA and much of it sold by US companies. Maybe they shouldn't have put CD and DVD players in every PC making it so easy that even grandma can copy/rip a CD/DVD? Oh ya, and after all that they put Blueray players in PCs??? The way I see it is that some US companies screwed over some other US companies to make a buck, and that is who should be on a list.

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