Samsung's Wang was up 22 hours a day, had no time to copy Apple

Samsung fired its opening salvo against Apple's allegation that the South Korean giant ripped off the iPhone design, and claimed it worked its arse off to develop its own gadgets. At the two tech titans' ongoing patent trial in the US yesterday, Sammy also argued that Apple's iProducts are not unique. The South Korean firm …

[Lockwood]

"Samsung also used video testimony from Roger Fidler, who created prototype tablets for interactive newspapers, to argue in court that the iPhone and iPad designs aren't unique. Some of Fidler's devices look like Apple's fondleslab, complete with a large touchscreen and rounded corners"

New lawsuit pending?

[LarsG]

2 to 3 hours a night hey!

If she had said 5 or 6 it might have been more believable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have downvotes

All the hysterical fandroids for their childish behaviour and juvenile comments that have expressed no valued comment other than portraying themselves as a mass of phychosymatic sheep on their monthly group period.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wang Chung

WANG CHUNG surely they were an 80's pop band?

[El_Fev]

"The fruity firm also brought out smartphones that don't look like iPhones such as Nokia's Lumia 800. The trial continues."

EXACTLYhow come everyone else can make a phone that does not look like an iPhone apart from samsung, and the rounded corners argument is Bullshit! Samsung is doing that same as the cheap knockoff merchants that copy a gucci bag , but just change the spelling.

Look up the samsung Tocco , looked nothing like the iPhone yet was full touchscreen and had its own style of icons, totally dropped in favour of the Galaxy ripoff.

Yes virtually everything is made of previous bits put together in a new way, however if we just allow far eastern firms to rip off everything we do on the cheap, the west is fucked!

[Steve Crook]

iBag

Your analogy is interesting.

Imagine that Apple had designed a handbag. It wasn't the first handbag ever made, and had two handles and internal pockets like many other bags, but the iBag used a magnetic clasp and adjustable straps. The first time a mag clasp/adjustable straps are used on a handbag, but they *have* been used on other types of bag.

Then someone produces a handbag that looks similar to the iBag and it has a magnetic clasp. The galaxy bag *cannot* be mistaken for the iBag despite being similar and in addition the rival bag is branded in such a way that no-one could possibly think Apple made it.

The whole thing is daft. I understand Apple want to protect their hard work and their development costs, but this is beyond that, they also want to inhibit competition and that's not a good thing for anyone, even Apple.

[henrydddd]

Re: iBag

The real sad thing is that I think that from the Judges remarks that Apple will be likely to prevail, Apple has already won this case. The only hope for a competitive market would be that a ruling favorable toward Apple would be overturned in an appeal. Failing that, hopefully the US would launch an anti-trust lawsuit against Apple. If the conservatives gain more power in the US, that won't happen. If Apple wins against Samsung, they will go after every other Android or otherwise smart phone in the world using that same stupid patent. Then consumers will have no in what smart phone that they use.

[Nick G]

"Look up the samsung Tocco , looked nothing like the iPhone yet was full touchscreen and had its own style of icons, totally dropped in favour of the Galaxy ripoff."

I'm looking at mine right now & it's rectangular with rounded edges...

[MrXavia]

I'm looking at the tocco..., and you know what, I think they definately followed on from this design for the SGSII, hold on, you know what, the iPhone 4 looks a lot like it.... did APPLE copy Samsung?

And yes its rectangular with rounded edges...

Oh and the SGS was nothing like an iphone, its bigger, its got a flatter back, less pronounced curves, and is basically a better phone to hold....

[Derezed]

I think my Credit Card has rounded edges...hum. I think Mastercard should be suing Apple for infringement...

[Shagbag]

Exactly. They're a Copycat.

Witness for Samsung, Adam Bogue, a former business executive with Mitsubishi Electric Research Lab, discussed a multi-touch, touchscreen table-based system called DiamondTouch that he showed to Apple hardware engineers in 2003.

ie. Apple copied Bogue's work.

Benjamin Bederson, a professor of computer science at the University of Maryland, testified about a zoomable user interface his team developed called LaunchTile in the summer of 2004.

ie. Apple copied Bederson's work.

Itay Sherman, chief executive of the multi-touch company DoubleTouch and an inventor with 20 patents to his name said that features like big screens, rounded corners, and "lozenge" speaker holes predated what Apple brought out with the iPhone.

ie Apple copied DoubleTouch's work.

Roger Fidler demonstrated his 1990s 'Fidler' tablet prototype he designed as part of the labs group for news conglomerate Knight-Ridder, explaining that he had actually shown the device to Apple in 1994, the same year the company would apply for the '889 patent, which covers the look of the iPad.

ie. Apple copied Fidler's work.

Apple infringes three Samsung patent phone features: photo attachments to email, bookmarking digital photos and background music during other functions.

ie. Apple copied Samsung's work.

With so much copying going on, you have to ask who's the Slave and who's the Thief?

[Anonymous Coward]

Knight -Ridder

Totally off-topic, but:

news conglomerate Knight Ridder ?

Did all their employees drive black Ponttiac Trrans Am's ?

With the lttile Rred light ?

[Shagbag]

Apple's bounce-back patent ('381) is invalid.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/15/3244581/samsung-expert-apple-bounce-back-patent-invalid

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/despite-judges-entreaty-apple-v-samsung-charges-towards-finish-line/

[Shagbag]

iPhone and iPad infringing Samsung's Patents

Another Samsung expert, Dr. Tim Williams, walked the jury through two patents key to doing "high speed data transfer" on a 3G network. Those two patents, No. 7,447,516 and No. 7,675,941, are infringed by the iPhone and iPad, and mean that it's Apple—not Samsung—who needs to pay up.

[Rich 2]

@El_Fev - Not so

Samsung are not ripping-off anyone off, least of all Apple. They are just following a trend that has been building for ages. It's Apple that seem to think they invented and own this stuff. Take a wander off to here. This is a legal filing from Samsung showing just this...

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1257891/Samsung_unredacted_trial_brief.pdf

...the interesting stuff is reproduced here, which is a lot faster to load and read...

http://www.osnews.com/story/26230/Samsung_reveals_its_pre-iPhone_concepts_10_touchscreen_devices

It clearly shows that Samsung has, like everyone else, been working on these ideas long before the iPhone was even talked about. It's the same story with the iPad - ALL the ideas in the iPad that Apple are using to sue everyone were invented LONG before the iPad hit the market. Some of the ideas like the general look and feel of thing have been around for decades.

[mrmond]

Tocco trouble

"Look up the samsung Tocco , looked nothing like the iPhone yet was full touchscreen and had its own style of icons, totally dropped in favour of the Galaxy ripoff."

But the Tocco was crap.

[CrossChris]

You've Lost The Plot!

The Apple iProducts are in no way "western". ALL "their" technology is taken from the Far East. They can't manufacture anything themselves (you probably believe that the iCrap is USA-made). ALL their iRubbish is made in Korea, and China. Even their displays are made by SAMSUNG - even their super "iRetina" nonsense!

EVERYTHING Apple has done is an iRipOff. They've stolen ideas from everywhere and stuffed them into their overpriced iJunk. They've been caught out, and the counter-suits from Samsung, Sony, Panasonic KME, Nokia and all the rest should put them finally out of business.

Apple have just released their latest brokenware "operating system". An even harder-to-operate piece of iCrapware than the last - they really are trying hard to alienate their users and go out of business....

[Eddy Ito]

Sorry El_Fev

Given that Apple claims the iPhone wasn't a copy of the Prada design because the LG phone "has a raised button". Really, it wasn't a copy because the only distinction between the two is a button protruding slightly from the face? Bovine excrement! All Apple did was colorize the Prada icons so instead of the light on dark square icon with rounded corners the phone icon became green and the mail icon became blue, quite an innovation depending on the aesthetic you're after. The iPhone is a total ripoff of the Prada and if the far eastern firms continue to allow Apple to rip off everything they do, we're all fucked!

[ukgnome]

"so the designs were obvious and can't be patented"

Agreed - now stop feeding the lawyers

[Anonymous Coward]

Samsung workflow

Wang of course could be telling the truth and Samsung could still be at fault. Techcrunch have given a much more revealing review of the evidence submitted so far than is given by this article. The documents are fairly damning. To me the evidence very much suggests the following.

Wang: "How about this?"

Executive consulting design objectives document: Do the icons look like the iPhone yes/no

Answer = No

Executive to Wang: "No, go away and work harder - check the objectives document"

...

Wang "How about this?"

Executive consulting design objectives document: Do the icons look like the iPhone yes/no

Answer = No

Executive to Wang: "No, go away and work harder - check the objectives document"

...

repeat until the the answer at step two is yes.

[Shagbag]

Re: Samsung workflow

The trial is still going. Not all of the evidence has been presented to the Jury yet (let alone TechCrunch).

I also saw this at TechCrunch:

"Apple has the right to defend what it feels it developed and patented"

I've emailed the Ed with the correction:

"Apple has to prove that (a) what it has patented is enforceable, and (b) what it has patented has been infringed."

The onus is on Apple to prove its case, not the other way around.

[SuccessCase]

Re: Samsung workflow

not even the Jury, you're neglecting to mention Samsung destroyed much of it.

[Robert Grant]

What's weird is...

..these highly-paid lawyers and judges' job is to pronounce solemnly things like, "...although it had a rectangular display and rounded corners, it doesn't look like the iPad..."

Why we reward and aggrandize people who say such hilariously simple and dull things I'll never know.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: What's weird is...

Ah, aggrandize, my new 'Mot du jour!'

[Anonymous Custard]

Re: What's weird is...

Personally I'm just waiting for someone from Cupertino to visit Britain and see one of the VW adverts for the Golf (you know the ones, where all sorts of cars features and other stuff are compared to Golf's).

Then the Germans can be next on the lawyers hitlist for infringing Apple's patent on comparing things?

[The Original Cactus]

Re: Apple's patent on comparing things

With a little luck they'll go after those meerkats next.

[LinkOfHyrule]

Pathetic - If I was the judge in this case I would just personally bitch slap both parties in the middle of the court room and tell them what a complete set of bitches they both are for suing each other over such frivolous shit!

Great headline for the story by the way!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm only commenting on the headline

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha...excelent!

[Robert Ramsay]

Re: I'm only commenting on the headline

Indeed! Well played, El Reg, well played.

[Psyx]

Re: I'm only commenting on the headline

I'm just upset that I had to scroll so far down the page to find a comment already relating to it.

Best headline ever.

[Anonymous Coward]

If their wang is up for more than 4 hours...

shouldn't they have called a doctor?

[heyrick]

Re: I'm only commenting on the headline

Indeed, +1. I bet when this story landed on the desk, a quick browse of the details and... oh my GOD! Samsung's Wang was up 22 hours a day!

Heh... what dirty little minds we have. [love it!]

[Mike Judge]

Can I sue Apple?

As I created a GD2 based online rounded icon creator in 2005...

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Can I sue Apple?

Only if you trademarked/patented it. Otherwise you have to find someone (EFF perhaps) that can use your source code to help invalidate Apple's patent.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Can I sue Apple?

No, but you can stop them suing people, via prior art.

[noboard]

Oi Reg

*chomp* *chomp* *chomp* *chomp*

Where's our popcorn icon?

*chomp* *chomp* *chomp* *chomp*

[joeW]

"The fruity firm also brought out smartphones that don't look like iPhones such as Nokia's Lumia 800"

Will they trot out the LG Prada too I wonder? Not bloody likely.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sleeping at the job?

22 hours a day to make a bad clone of Apple's interface?

She might not be very good at design, but man does she have a future in comedy!

[JarekG]

Re: Sleeping at the job?

I guess no one notice the Joke Alert icon....13 down votes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Icon

No, they just didn't think the joke was very funny.

[Anonymous Coward]

Dodgy argument...

Quote: "Sammy also argued that Apple's iProducts are not unique"

Yes and no.

Yes, in the sense that nothing in human history has ever been completely unique. Everyone has learned something from a predecessor, and in some respects everything we make is partially derivative.

No, in the sense that several Apple developments are widely accepted as instrumental to a tech revolution. The iPhone was one such development. If you disagree, take it up with the myriad industry commentators who have said as much.

The iPhone provoked a huge amount of controversy when first presented - was it too big? ...could a device with no keyboard attract broad acceptance? ...wouldn't a touch-only interface get a bit streaky and disgusting?...and so on. This would never have happened if we had an existing model to evaluate - it would only lead to comparisons. The iPhone wasn't referred to as the potential killer of a similar rival, but many phones afterward were dubbed 'iPhone-killers'. Apple defined the benchmark. Samsung is on a losing argument if it tries to prove otherwise.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Dodgy argument...

Not apples developments, apples MARKETING, since the original iPhone was no better than my HTC smart phone, or one of many smart phones out at the time...

BUT it had the marketing behind it, and that got people buying smart phones, the costs were already dropping and they just happened to hit the market running..

I never brought an iPhone because it was too small, it had no replaceable battery, it couldn't do half the things my HTC windows phone did at the time...

I only moved to pure touch screen after they got big enough to have a half decent keyboard, although I'd still like a slide out qwerty keyboard if I could

[Mark .]

Re: Dodgy argument...

I agree, though note we can't even credit Apple for selling more due to marketing. It didn't - in the early years, Apple's sales were nothing compared to other smartphone platforms like Symbian, BlackBerry and even Windows Mobile. It was those platforms that got people buying more smartphones, not Apple - and more recently, the massive growth has overwhelmingly been due to Android. If you removed all of Apple's sales, it would have made little change, especially in the earlier years.

[Mark .]

Re: Dodgy argument...

"No, in the sense that several Apple developments are widely accepted as instrumental to a tech revolution. The iPhone was one such development. If you disagree, take it up with the myriad industry commentators who have said as much."

The Iphone caused a tech revolution, because Apple fans say-so? If you say so.

As everyone here has noted (see, I can do weasel-worded appeal-to-popularity too), the history of smartphones has been long before Apple, and it would have continued on its development with or without Apple. For every good thing you can say Apple did, there are countless ones we can also say for the other phone companies like HTC, Nokia, LG and Samsung.

"The iPhone provoked a huge amount of controversy when first presented" - false, it was hyped widely by the media even before it was released, further proving that the media focus was not due to the actual product released, but because of the usual Apple bias.

"could a device with no keyboard attract broad acceptance?" - false, there have been keyboardless phones before, and there was no broad opposition to the idea.

"wouldn't a touch-only interface get a bit streaky and disgusting?" - well I think that still is a problem with capacitive touchscreens, however you're making it up to claim that there was some big opposition to Apple here from the media. The bias has been against resistive touchscreens from the start.

"The iPhone wasn't referred to as the potential killer of a similar rival, but many phones afterward were dubbed 'iPhone-killers'." - yes, the media are biased towards Apple. I don't see that as a good thing though.

The Iphone *was* "killed" - as a model, it was rivalled in sales by the Nokia 5800; as a platform, outsold by Symbian and now Android. Did any of those media commentators acknowledge that? No, they still only go on about Apple. Referring to something as an "iPhone-killer" isn't that the Iphone was new, all it says is that the author is an Apple fan, and chooses bias wording. It means that even if the other platform completely outsells Apple, he can still spin it by saying "Oh look, but the Iphone was first, and it wasn't completely killed off!"

The original Iphone gave Apple appalling phone sales compared to the competing companies. Only years later, did they finally gradually increase their sales to be more (though still 3rd place). The original Iphone was years behind in basic features. These are now finally added, but it's laughable to suggest that Apple defined the smartphone with the Iphone 4S.

"Apple defined the benchmark." - what benchmark? Of releasing an expensive phone with features years behind the competition, but still getting the media hype? I agree entirely.

[CrossChris]

Re: Dodgy argument...

Do you mean "the myriad industry commentators" who'd say anything to receive a free piece of iJunk?

My Nokia touch phone from 1997 (without a physical keyboard) certainly predates Apple's notion of any phone - sorry iWankers.....

I built my first portable MP3 player wih a tiny laptop hard drive back in 1993 - this certainly predates the iPod - sorry Apple....

The touch interface with panning and zooming using "multitouch" was included in a Siemens CCTV security system in the late 80s - Apple's case looks really weak.....

[Anonymous Coward]

House Rules.

"4. No trolling - it's OK to be provocative, but trolling is another matter." How the actual fuck is iWankers not trolling? Or for that matter joking about people having AIDS or calling people mongoloid? No, it's not PC you massive dick, it call decency.

While I'm at it...

"6. We're thick-skinned, but... if you slag off The Register or its writers your comment may get canned - this is our house, after all. Requests for writers to be sacked or for stories not to have been published are unlikely to hang around for long. Use your common sense." Why is it that you mock Apple again? Fucking hypocrites.

[Toothpick]

Re: Dodgy argument...

iProducts

iCrap

iRubbish

iRetina

iRipOff

iJunk

iCrapware

iWankers

How long did it take you to come up with these hilarious iNames?

"I built my first portable MP3 player wih a tiny laptop hard drive back in 1993 - this certainly predates the iPod - sorry Apple...."

Why didn't you patent it then ?

Yet another troll with a massive chip on their shoulder.

[Anonymous Coward]

How do

The fandroids manage to walk with the weight of that chip on their shoulder.

Pedantic, no substance, valueless, ranting, tantrums, herd instinct comments, fabricated lies, deliberate untruths, ill-informed shouty heads, and that's just a start.

Are they the missing link?

[heyrick]

Re: Dodgy argument...

I don't think Apple can claim to have "invented" the MP3 player - the iPod turned up three years after MPMan created the first marketable device (followed by devices from Cowon, Creative, Archos, and finally Apple).

I wonder where the MP3s for that self-built player came from? The MP3 standard was finalised in '93, but it wasn't until summer '94 that the first software MP3 encoder was actually released; and we never looked back...

[AlbertH]

Re: Dodgy argument...

Some of us with German accents were using MP3 as early as 1991.

[Silverburn]

Ok, take my next comments with a pitch of salt, because I know f* all about US patents...

1. If Apple copied your design, and your design was not "protected", you can probably argue prior art until you're blue in the face, but if you have no *proof* your design predates Apples, then your probably SOL. However, see point 3.

2. If you show Apple something in a shut door session, and you signed their NDA, and your design was not "protected"...what did you think would happen? Did they ask you some obvious questions like "have you shown anyone else this? In particular anyone from the press or our competitors?". FFS.

3. Who the f* was in charge of the "prior art research" at the patent office when Apple submitted theirs? There is so much public domain stuff out there with "round corners" that *someone* at the PO must have noticed??? FFS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wang

And there was me thinking this was an article about Wang Computers being dragged into the Apple patent lawyer hell.

[Anonymous Coward]

Throw out the case

I do not buy Samsung kit because of some bad experiences with quality in the past, but their pads do look nice I must admit. However, their pads are 6:10 format whereas iPads are 4:3. On that single point alone this case is a none starter. Apple are really hacking me off now and I am currently deciding which tablet to buy. Much as I like the iPad on the principle of their appalling anti-competitive behaviour plus the massive overpricing of their 3G models and the premium for extra memory, I will instead either go for the Asus 300TG or wait for the first WIndows RT pads due in a couple of months.

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: Throw out the case

Why is Apple being anti-competitive for defending their work? it is Samsung that is being anti-competitive by not competing fairly.

[Steve Evans]

@AC 14:22 - Re: Throw out the case

Whilst every inventor has the right to defend their work, that is not what we are seeing here.

Apple haven't really invented anything. Touch screen devices existed long before the iPhone. Some of them had icons, and some of those were even rectangular with rounded corners. All Apple did was take ideas from various sources and then refine them. I admit they did a nice job (eventually once they fixed all the short-falls of the IPhone 1).

Rounding the corners off of things, so they are not sharp, is not innovation. It's common place. Real physical items have been manufactured like this for centuries. Even Mr Chippendale (C 18th) was known to rub a bit of sandpaper on his furniture. It is more pleasing on the eye. Applying this to a virtual object is so obvious it's not even funny.

[Steve Evans]

Re: Throw out the case

You could do worse than have a play with a Nexus 7... Very nice bit of kit. A complete bargain, and it fits into a generous sized pocket (back pocket of my genes for example).

[Anonymous Coward]

22 hours a day to copy Apple?

That's a lot of copying. Too bad they cannot produce internal documents showing other phones they "analyzed" as much as the iPhone. Only Fandroids are having a tough time seeing the obvious, but I don't expect much from them to begin with.

[BigAndos]

Ah El Reg, never knowingly missing a knob gag...

[fLaMePrOoF]

There are only two possible outcomes to this trial:

1. Apple gets well and truly Beaitch Slapped

2. They bought the judge...

[toadwarrior]

And Clinton said he didn't have sexual relations with that woman. Does samsung thing that's a good excuse?

[sueme2]

iLandscape architecture

Look at the alternatives that have been presented to Samsung, and you have a deal made in Califorina. The choices are simples, you either pay us for the stuff we allow, AND you do not get to use anything we do not allow, or you can get your shafting from our Seattle friends.

Now which square has the goats?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The fruity firm also brought out smartphones that don't look like iPhones such as Nokia's Lumia 800"

Ahh, so that's who bought one.

[AlbertH]

Abusing their position

Apple have reached the position that MS occupied a few years ago - they have so much money that they don't know what to do with it.

Instead of investing in R&D and employing the very best engineers they can afford, they're concentrating on trying to kill off their perceived competitors with specious litigation. Apple probably have enough cash in hand to buy the results they want - just like MS could a few years ago.

MS exemplify the disaster that ensues when a technical products company is taken over be marketing - It's widely recognised that Ballmer has NEVER made a correct decision, for example.

MS' war chest has diminished to practically nothing and if their share price continues its current trend, they'll be a penny stock in a few months. Apple are starting to go the same way.... at least Jobs gave them some direction, but now the marketers have taken over, and litigation is preferred to product development. This is just the same as MS a few years ago, and will end up with the same results...

[Quinch]

Re: Abusing their position

The word is about, there's something evolving

Whatever may come, the world keeps revolving

They say the next big thing is here

That the revolution's near

But to me it seems quite clear

That it's all just a little bit of history repeating...

{with apologies to Shirley Bassey and the Propellerheads}

[sunnyskies]

Only getting 2 to 3 hours of sleep a night...

If college students are only getting 2 to 3 hours of sleep before the big deadline, that's generally when they start trawling the Internet for something to plagiarize...