Outraged!
Surely the skill of the shooter was being able to anticipate and compensate for gravity, wind, temperature etc, and well as physical control of heart rate, breathing etc to obtain the perfect shot?
Lasers just seem like...cheating.
Olympic athletes compete in RAYGUN SHOOTING for the first time
Thus far, we here at the Register have struggled to hang much of a tech angle on the ongoing London Olympics. As there are also few obvious Paris Hilton angles to be found on the 2012 spectacle-fest, and few Vultures have any deep expertise in sports or physical exercise, we have thus far confined ourselves to a few pieces on …
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 14:53 GMT Rampant Spaniel
Re: Outraged!
I concur, part of the skill of shooting is factoring in external forces like gravity and wind. Anybody who has learned to shoot will tell you the direction of the barrel is not the whole story.
Where does this leave them with respect to records? They would have to start over right? It would be akin to turning round to the hurdlers and saying, right the 2012 hurdles are 60% shorter and when the records fall (not due to better training or fitter humans) depriving the old record holder of their title. It just wouldn't be fair on the current record holders who set records under more difficult conditions.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 16:13 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Outraged!
Well, lasers *do* have recoil, y'know?
I believe these ones have a delay built in between trigger pull and fire, to stimulate travel.
And it's not like the target pistols that used to be used had any significant recoil anyway.
"These were chosen with the idea that they were the primary physical skills that a military officer (perhaps tasked with delivering urgent despatches across the battlefield)"
I think that the events were specifically designed to emulate the activities of an officer escaping from behind enemy lines.
The modern Decathlon is along similar lines and includes wine-cellar raiding, Frenchie heiress defrocking, chicken stealing, cadding, boundering, and the 200m disdainful glare.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 16:39 GMT Graham Wilson
@despairing citizen - Re: Outraged! -- Forget all this imitation shooting stuff.
When I was learning to shoot, bullets had mass, were subject to wind drift, and there's a myriad of other things one had to learn before one could consistently repeat high scores in application shooting. Take any away and the game's a silly joke.
I'd propose we do away with the sport altogether and substitute bubble-gum blowing instead.
At least the spectators would be amused.
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Friday 3rd August 2012 15:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: @despairing citizen - Outraged! -- Forget all this imitation shooting stuff.
"When I was learning to shoot, bullets had mass, were subject to wind drift"
.22 Olympic-quality target pistols don't have anything recognisable as recoil, and 25m doesn't really result in windage. It's apples and oranges, really.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 18:42 GMT Fibbles
Re: Outraged!
The IOC is a corrupt organisation that already has far too much influence. Changing the laws of a country just to accommodate a sporting event should not be encouraged.
On the subject of lasers, will the athletes have to compensate for new environmental factors when taking their shot? How will a heat haze affect the accuracy of a laser pistol?
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Wednesday 1st August 2012 11:30 GMT rh587
Re: Outraged!
They did. All the shooting events are going on as normal. Foreign rifle shooters and shotgunners just had to get temporary permits whilst their UK counterparts already held those guns on Firearm and Shotgun Certificates. The only ones that caused a bit of paperwork were the cartridge pistols for Sport Pistol, Rapid Fire Pistol and 50metre Pistol which have to come directly form the Home Office (FACs/SGCs are issued by your local Police Force).
The pistols needed section 5 permits from the Home Office for the duration of the Games, but all the other airguns are legal here, as are the firearms (with the right licence).
The move to laser guns was a move by the World Pentathlon Association for reasons best known to themselves. Nothing to do with UK laws (we allow air pistols anyway). Their claim was it would be easier and safer to run events with laser pistols, but since 10m air ranges are not hard to set up, and I know of no major safety incidents or injuries on one, that was a fairly poor excuse.
All it did was hack off a lot of Pentathletes who had to go and spend moolah on laser pistols (and couldn't part ex on their air pistols because they still need those for local and national comps until all the relevant national governing bodies catch up and buy the targetry needed).
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Wednesday 1st August 2012 11:23 GMT rh587
Re: Outraged!
There's no recoil to speak of with the air pistols either. But you did at least have to have a decent technique as you still had a small but significant lock time and barrel time.
Unless they have built in a delay, the shot will be basically instantaneous, which makes the whole affair trivially easy.
There's been a lot of grumbling as it impacts the grassroots rather deeply - most local competitions can't afford electronic targetry, and would prefer to use good old falling plates with air pistols, which leads to a split between grassroots and national level competition, and those on the boundaries needing two pistols, which will have slightly different weights, balances, and react differently.
Also, on the lead front, it's not hard. Lay down matting in front of the targets (which will also have a hard backstop) and sweep up afterwards. It's only 10m air pistol, not shotgun or 1000yd rifle - very easy to contain the lead.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 21:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: "Wind and gravity don't impact on pistol shooting; it's too short distance"
Gravity effects everything, and trajectory is important when dealing with competition standard target shooting.
Wind has a veriable effect based on the size - weight - aerodynamcs and energy of the projectile.
Pistol rounds tend to be low powered and large, making them more susiptiable to wind effects than high veloicty rifle rounds. (which is why long range pistol shooting is done with rifle rounds e.g. 7.62x51)
The higher the velocity of the round, the flatter it's trajectory
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Friday 3rd August 2012 15:59 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: "Wind and gravity don't impact on pistol shooting; it's too short distance"
"Gravity effects everything, and trajectory is important when dealing with competition standard target shooting."
Gravity is constant.
Given the same muzzle velocity and range, drop is constant.
Range is going to be constant.
So you set the sights for the range. And then you you don't compensate for gravity.
Gravity is not an issue, nor a variable. It is constant that one's kit compensates for.
Simples.
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Wednesday 1st August 2012 14:26 GMT Koekie
Re: Outraged!
Incorrect.
Pistol rounds typically travel around 200m/s. Why? Because (especially for rimfires which have structural limitations) the short barrel only affords limited opportunity for acceleration from a relatively low pressure load. In addition, one doesn't want to have to contend with transonic aerodynamic instability. This also reduces recoil (and yes, air pistols have slight but significant recoil as well, at the level of competition we're considering).
At 200m/s, one covers 10m in 0.05s. At roughly 10m/s^2, that means the downward vector is 0.5m/s, give or take, and that the bullet lands lower by about 1cm, by virtue of gravity.
At this level of competition, accounting for 1cm is not trivial. It's crucial. It might seem trivial if you're shooting at people under combat conditions, but even shooting small vermin it is highly nontrivial.
An additional fudge factor is what happens with the placement of the powder grains in the cartridge. This is a factor in physical ammunition, which doesn't apply to lasers.
The best argument you could make in this context is that it shouldn't matter because the sights would be pinned for the appropriate distance, which honestly suggests a different approach: give each competitor a bog standard 1911, hi-power, CZ-85 (for the lefties) or similar, and have them shoot at a variety of ranges from, say, 3m to 30m. That will separate the sheep from the goats.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 13:53 GMT Silverburn
It's the thin end of the wedge...
Soon they'll also be riding around in uncrashable robot horses, using light sabres instead of swords (without the decapitation ability), virtual pools where you swim in VR, or use a games console and running, where they all use joint-injury-friendly treadmills.
Humbug!
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 15:02 GMT Dropper
WII Sports Olympics
The next generation's Olympics will be played entirely on WII Consoles across the internet.. which is how it should be in an age where sports in schools is regarded as too expensive... "athletes" will be disqualified for taking a new range of banned substances - Rockstar, Red Bull, etc - and avatars will have to conform to IOC dress standards.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 14:01 GMT Cameron Colley
Why bother.
As a precious poster mentioned there is more to shooting than simply aiming and pressing a button. Why not just drop the sport since it has been decided that guns are evil and nobody who isn't under the employ of the government must be allowed to touch one?
They should drop the bow and arrows too in case they're stolen to order by criminals wanting to hold up the local Tesco.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 14:30 GMT TeeCee
Possibilities.
I read this and think it must be about time to start lobbying for Laser Tag to become an Olympic sport.
Oddest laser tag place I ever went to was in CZ. The "guns" were rather larger, heavier and more robust than usual and the chest and back sensor / scoring arrangements were dirty great metal boxed things, liberally adored with large, balefully glowing lime-green and red LEDs and attached to a honking great NiCad battery pack on the belt. My guess is that it was ex-Soviet military training gear. Slight snag was that the straps for the sensor gear were designed for athletic young soldier types and didn't fit middle-aged fat bastards too well. Still, it evened things out as the adults were struggling to keep everything in place while the kids were struggling under the sheer weight of the kit.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 15:00 GMT Matt Bryant
Re: Possibilities.
Hey, it's not like you can just go and buy the same stuff the US and allies use for their training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Integrated_Laser_Engagement_System). Oh, wait a sec... yes you can! http://www.bpbsurplus.com/lc/cart.php?target=category&category_id=310
Well, as long as you're not called Abdul and live in Bradford.....
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 15:30 GMT Greg J Preece
@TeeCee - You play?
You play tag? What system? Don't say Quasar. I'll cry.
As an avid laser tag player, I welcome this upgrade to the Olympic event. Perhaps next time we can have the ability for the target to fire back, requiring some sort of...vest apparatus? And then the time after that, we could play in the dark!
One step at a time. ;-)
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 14:57 GMT Anonymous Coward
A better explanation for the modern Pentathlon
It's every skill you need to escape from a castle after being caught in bed with the evil general's gorgeous daughter.
It'd be even better if they had to complete each discipline with a box of chocolates in one hand and fight off an army of disposable henchmen.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 15:11 GMT Nev
Re: Conditioning.
"Witness the (re-newed) attack on the 2nd Amendment in the USA that is happening right now."
Bollocks. There is no attack on gun rights in the US.
It's an election run-up and both candidates need the votes.
An AR-15 with stockpile 6000 rounds of ammunition, 100 round magazines combat vest and a knife.
All easily purchased online (2 day delivery! ) or at gun shows.
You can buy as much and as many weapons as you could possibly want to go out and kill some proles in a cinema.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 17:11 GMT Random K
Re: Conditioning.
Bahahaha! You've obviously never been to a gun show in the south. I've seen a (maybe 16 year old) kid buy a 9mm with not so much as a paper filled out. Asked for the Glock, handed they guy some cash, walked away from the table. Of course that was 3 or 4 years ago. Perhaps things have changed, but that's just one more thing I don't miss about Texas.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 16:26 GMT Chris Miller
Scientifiction Olympics
Took place on the first day, when a blind Korean archer won the gold: "Use the Force, Luke".
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 20:20 GMT Kurt 5
Drones and laser designators
The sport would be much better if you had a drone flying overhead and from horseback you used your "laser pistol" as a targetting laser to designate a target. And then the drone would release a missile and blow up whatever you were lasing. Seems perfect for today's warfare.
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 20:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
A gold medal for playng SNES Duck Hunt?
No wonder the Borg adapted so quickly to such political correctness.
I'm surprised Isambard Kingdom Brunel didn't appear in the stadium smoking an electronic cigar, though maybe that would have inadvertently sparked a false major anti-terrorism incident...
Quack quack quack quaaAAAAAAAAk!
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Tuesday 31st July 2012 22:36 GMT John Brown (no body)
Lead contamination?
"There is also a minor environmental plus in that there's no need to clear up lead pellets afterwards to prevent them contaminating groundwater etc.
This last might not seem like a big deal...blah, blah, blah"
One wonders just how much lead contamination from bullets gets into the groundwater compared with, say, a rainy day over a church. Not to mention the lead pipes still in existence as part of our drinking water network.
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