back to article Surface slab WILL rub our PC-making pals the wrong way – Microsoft

Microsoft’s tablet-like-laptop Surface will compete with machines from PC partners, thus jeopardising manufacturers’ commitment to Windows 8. That’s the bottom line revealed in Microsoft’s latest SEC filing for Wall St’s moneymen. Under the Risk Factors section in Microsoft’s 10-K, here, the company states: “Our Surface …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. The Baron
    Meh

    The SEC Filing Game

    Just a quick reminder that simply because something is filed in a SEC report, doesn't mean the company really thinks there's any likelihood of it happening.

    Here's how The SEC Filing Game works:

    1. Take out shares in a major company.

    2. Find an event that happened but that wasn't in their SEC filing. Claim that this event negatively affected the share price.

    3. Sue.

    4. Profit!!!

    Hence SEC filings are often pre-emptive measures rather than carefully calibrated risk assessments, and shouldn't necessarily be taken as an indication of a company's real opinion on a given subject.

    1. Paul Shirley

      Re: The SEC Filing Game

      They are conservative 'cover our arses' statements *but* everything in the risk disclosure affects stock value, they don't just throw things in to be safe because that also gets them sued.

      If something this damaging is in there they believe it's a real risk. This one is so damaging if anything they'll have understated it as far as they believe possible while avoiding a shareholder lawsuit.

    2. JEDIDIAH
      Linux

      Re: The SEC Filing Game

      No. The SEC is very serious. You don't lie to the SEC. It's far worse than lying to the FBI.

      The FBI only cares about silly things like kidnapping. The SEC safeguards money for the wealthy.

      It's more serious than you silly let-the-corporations-have-no-accountability tort reform rhetoric implies.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Upset the competition?

      Only if they sell, which is increasingly unlikely.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The SEC Filing Game

      True, Oracle included a bunch of disclaimers about all of the ways that acquiring Sun could backfire and harm their OEM relationships as well. Standard fare.

    5. N13L5
      Pint

      Love how nobody ever mentions that Newell has an axe to grind

      <<Newell, speaking in Seattle, Washington, reportedly called Windows 8 "a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space”.>>

      Newell also said Windows 8 will "Kill gaming on the PC" what he meant of course was, it will kill Valve on the PC. Micro$oft is starting its own "instant-WinRT-monopoly" app store, undoubtedly also selling games through it... this will affect Steam negatively... If you ask me, he should sell his company to some Schmuck with deep pockets now, before he goes the way of RIM.

      Its a shame Crapple didn't patent their all-locked-down business model. Now they can't sue Micro$huft for trying to do the same.

      As for games, Windows 8 introduces a Stereoscopic 3D API, which will help games on the PC greatly. No more Nvidia stranglehold, with purposely crippled 3DS output modes over HDMI and such.

      My hope is, that people will be too smart to buy Windows RT devices until Micro$oft is forced to add full Windows compatibility and give up on the single source app store. We don't need another anti-competitive stranglehold that serves nothing besides false security claims and getting Micro$oft 30% of everything sold.

      So, its a mixed bag. Like the article said :)

      Recommendations to consumers?

      - Don't buy machines limited to Windows RT.

      - Do buy regular Windows 8 machines and simply read the tutorial on how to get the desktop back, if you hate Metro.

      - There's also a way to have both the desktop AND Metro in one, simply by installing Rainmeter with the Omnimo skin, both of which are useful and free.

      And for Intel's sake, buy some Ultrabooks, jeez, how hard can it be? Eat Ramen for a month...

  2. DrXym Silver badge

    I don't see them costing that much

    A Windows RT version has to be at least competitive with Android / iOS so I expect it will be $400-500, the x86 version running actual Windows 8 will probably be $800 or thereabouts.

    I doubt either will ship with the keyboard, which will be an accessory commanding a large markup. Given how much a smart cover costs for an iPad you can expect the keyboard cover for the Surface to cost that or more.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I don't see them costing that much

      I expect list will be on the pricy side to avoid complaints from OEMs, but like everyone else its pure a guess and could easily be wrong. A major goal with the RT model seems to be to get ARM devices into the hands of developers and evaluators to get the store moving for next year.

    2. Richard Plinston

      Re: I don't see them costing that much

      > competitive with Android / iOS

      Apple has the supply chain in place with large volumes to ensure best possible costs. Because they still have the iPad2 being sold they could drop the selling price of this further to cover any 'cheap' Surface. They could also bring out a 7-8" iPad. It is likely that they will keep the iPad3 at a premium price.

      Android tablet cover a wide range of prices from ultra-cheap (usually nasty, but not always) through to premium.

      Windows ARM tablets will have some significant disadvantages: MS dictates the components and minimum specs. Suppliers know this and can 'negotiate' lower discounts for those. Volumes will be lower for each individual OEM (whereas Apple buys components for 100% of iPad), this is also a factor that will increase costs. OEMs will have to factor in an additional $80 for the OS.

      Given an identical machine with either RT or Android, the RT one needs to have a price at least $80 higher.

      Given these it is likely that the only barely profitable option for ARM is to try for the premium market at a price level higher than iPad3. But then this will compete with Surface RT where MS does not need to factor in the OS price.

      Result: OEMs would make a loss, so are unlikely to bother.

      For x86 Windows 8 the costs will be higher because of the i5 (or similar) CPU, GPU, larger battery, cooling, and the _requirement_ that it have keyboard and mouse/trackpad to be useful (for legacy software). It would also probably need to sell with OEM Office. This is why Windows Slates are so much more expensive than ARM tablets, and x86 W8 will not be much cheaper than those.

      HP should bring back WebOS and add an Android sub-system. Dell etc should make the Android/Ubuntu tablets they were working on. Google will take the mass-market end of the tablet market. MS alone will have Windows ARM tablets, there will be a continuing small market for x86 tablets but most users will stick with laptops or get iPads.

      1. Mage Silver badge

        barely profitable option for ARM

        "barely profitable option for ARM is to try for the premium market at a price level higher than iPad3"

        ALL the iPads and iPhones use an ARM core. ARM win from every Android, iOS and Win8 ARM sale.

        I expect the only loser will be Intel. They have an ARM licence and the best Fab, why aren't they making Intel ARM SoC?

        I expect the Mac Air to switch from x86 to ARM sometime too.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: barely profitable option for ARM

          Because Intel doesn't want to sell ARM chips. They did and sold that off. They would rather push their Atom chips than sell an ARM. Intel wants everything to be IA or didn't you get the memo from a decade ago?

        2. Richard Plinston

          Re: barely profitable option for ARM

          >> "barely profitable option for ARM is to try for the premium market at a price level higher than iPad3"

          Let me clarify that for you, first by restoring the part you clipped, and then adding the context created by the previous paragraphs:

          "Given these [options and constraints for OEMs] it is likely that the only barely profitable option for ARM [based OEM tablets as distinct from x86] is to try for the premium market at a price level higher than iPad3"

          ARM do make profits, OEMs making ARM based Windows RT tablets are unlikely to do so, for the reasons given.

          1. ToddRundgren
            Meh

            Re: barely profitable option for ARM

            OK Richard, now it makes more sense. But as you know, ARM wins always, unless ATOM gets dramaically better at power managment

      2. ToddRundgren
        Unhappy

        Re: I don't see them costing that much

        @Richard Plimston,

        What has this go to do with ARM?

    3. VulcanV5

      Re: I don't see them costing that much

      Agreed. That's why the Asus Transformer will get yet another sales boost: first Apple with its unexpandable feature-limited walled garden slab, now Microsoft with this. My TF is now 12 months old and stll works perfectly, no need of a cover, no need of an add-on keyboard thanks to its clamshell design. And definitely no need of anything with as daft a name as a Surface, a word which appears to suggest that Microsoft's success will be merely superficial.

  3. Big_Ted

    "Contrary to reports, Surface will not be priced $1,000-plus...................

    Microsoft has not yet announced any Surface pricing. ..................Back in June it said the Surface "is expected to be competitive with a comparable ARM tablet or Intel Ultrabook-class PC......"

    So if I work then out right then its comparable to an ultrabook, arn't they selling for $1000 plus ?

    1. Paul Shirley

      ...but that's the whole shell game being played. Too externally identical devices, both with identical start screens and mostly indistinguishable Metro modes. 2 wildly different prices. A recipe for hoodwinking customers if ever I saw one, talk up the pro device, sell the RT, hope the disappointed buyers don't make too much noise.

      1. h4rm0ny

        "...but that's the whole shell game being played. Too externally identical devices, both with identical start screens and mostly indistinguishable Metro modes. 2 wildly different prices. A recipe for hoodwinking customers if ever I saw one, talk up the pro device, sell the RT, hope the disappointed buyers don't make too much noise."

        You definitely are not a marketing person. Misrepresenting a product is really the last thing you want to be doing for sustained business. Disappointed customers who feel they've been "hoodwinked" are the worst kind of press. What you describe is the sort of tactic a short-term seller like a person in a pub would benefit from, not a long-term business.

        1. JEDIDIAH
          Linux

          Where have you been?

          > Misrepresenting a product is really the last thing you want to be doing for sustained business.

          You are assuming (wrongfully) that anyone is thinking that far ahead.

          1. h4rm0ny

            Re: Where have you been?

            "You are assuming (wrongfully) that anyone is thinking that far ahead."

            Given that Windows 8 has probably been in planning, if not active development since before Windows 7 actually started being sold, that comment seems demonstrably wrong.

            1. Paul Shirley

              @h4rmony

              "Windows 8 has probably been in planning, if not active development since before Windows 7 actually started being sold"

              I'll agree something intended to be released as Windows 8 was probably in planning before Vista was launched. Some of the desktop core is probably actually implemented in Win8.

              What's actually being released as Win8 only started after Apple started *selling significant numbers* of iPads. Not when they launched because as usual MS failed to believe there was a market. As usual MS are late to the party and as usual using dirty tricks to catch up - in this case screwing over the desktop to cross promote other, non-PC products.

        2. Dana W
          FAIL

          This will not end well.

          The customers who buy the cheaper Arm box thinking "Its Windows, it HAS to run my legacy software!" are going to feel VERY hoodwinked.

          And yes it will be their fault for buying it without knowing what it actually IS. But when they find out they have to play double iPad prices to run non-tablet Windows apps, they will be howling. And when the ones who bought the big pad and can run them find out that not onlly is it thicker, heavier and runs hot, but it also has the battery life of a Sega Nomad, THEY will start howling as well.

          The whole thing is still a recipe for failure.

          1. Mage Silver badge

            Re: This will not end well? Legacy?

            "Its Windows, it HAS to run my legacy software!" are going to feel VERY hoodwinked.

            Mmm... I think the majority of non-Business customers are not interested in Legacy Windows SW support. Sales of Mac Books, iPad and Android tablets prove that.

            1. david bates

              Re: This will not end well? Legacy?

              But its a Windows Tablet, so its portable and the kids will be able to play all their Steam games on it, wont they?

            2. N13L5
              Pint

              Re: This will not end well? Legacy?

              I think those who didn't care about regular windows have already gone to Crapple products for the shininess and the perception that Crapple products are used by "smart people" and "creatives", and so if they buy one, they will somehow also be considered smart and creative...

              The suddenly so-called "legacy" programs are mostly made for consumers and were either already purchased at fairly high prices or pirated for free. The new Windows RT monopoly will not fly with either of those customers.

              And all the I-need-it-super-simple People who will fall for a monolithic walled ghetto scheme are already with the shiny baubles company.

              At least those of us who don't wish the open PC market dead can hope that it is so...

          2. John Bailey
            Happy

            Re: This will not end well.

            I'm stocking up on popcorn.

        3. Kiwi Silver badge
          Joke

          "Misrepresenting a product is really the last thing you want to be doing for sustained business."

          And yet MS are still around.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "And yet MS are still around."

            Why the 'joke' icon ?

        4. Jonjonz
          Linux

          Go talk to Detroit

          Detroit has played this game profitably for years. 2 models on the show room, one is the top of the line and costs say 40K. The other is the economy line with a base of 30K. The top of the line comes with all accessories standard. On the economy model these are costly add ons. The top of the line model is structurally superior and a safer product. The economy model is less robust, and a more dangerous vehicle to be in.

          Detroit makes their money off the consumers who fall for this charade, get the low priced model, and then add accessories to the point that they are spending very close to the top of the line model. They have succeeded in getting the rubes to pay for an inherently inferior product practically the same amount they charge for their best product.

          1. N13L5
            FAIL

            Re: Go talk to Detroit

            talking of an 'inferior' product sort of implies they actually have a 'superior' product too?

            I don't think so... I've rented a bunch of GM cars and it was awful every time.

            In one of the big cars, I think it was an Oldsmobile I rented in Phoenix, they have nifty 'features' like AC vents blowing directly on the drivers knee with no possibility for adjustment or moving your knee out of the way. So, when you try to get out of the car, your knee is frozen solid, you can't straighten it and are forced to limp away...

            Lexus wins by default :)

        5. Zack Mollusc
          WTF?

          Marketing look farther ahead than the next bonus? When did that start?

        6. John Bailey
          Coffee/keyboard

          "You definitely are not a marketing person. Misrepresenting a product is really the last thing you want to be doing for sustained business. Disappointed customers who feel they've been "hoodwinked" are the worst kind of press. What you describe is the sort of tactic a short-term seller like a person in a pub would benefit from, not a long-term business."

          See attached icon.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Or maybe not selling for $1000+

  4. Test Man
    Stop

    Microsoft MIGHT jeopardise any working relationship with OEMs by releasing the Surface tablet, but then again they MIGHT actually make the OEMs release a decent product, as they might not want their tablets look like a lame duck against what could be perceived as "the standard".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Yep...

      The only half decent tablet that I'd like to own at the moment is the Samsung Series Seven Slate, it's on the pricey side, though. I'm holding off until I see how much the Intel based surface costs and what it's like - certainly in terms of memory, and what any potential docking station will be like.

      If MS kick the tablet manufacturers up the backside, this can only be a good thing, even if you're a die hard Linux or Mac user, because it'll force all the competition to up their game.

      1. Spearchucker Jones
        Meh

        Re: Yep...

        I have a series 7. It's not a bad piece of kit because it's got the grunt for VS2012, but the build quality isn't phenomenal, exactly. The glass is lifting off the frame in the corners. Also, it's $£&ing heavy. Granted, it replaces my little Vaio P-Series, which's only 600-odd grams.

        I'm waiting for an ARM Surface. Means I can leave the slate at home, which's where I do dev anyway.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    Win - Win

    Microsoft produces tablet-like-laptops which even appeal to me. It runs Win8, all aimed at touch.

    Other manufacturers get so upset and ticked off that they continue to sell PC's with Windows 7 despite MS' demands to stop sales in order to push Windows 8 forward.

    I'd call that a win-win situation ;-)

  6. Joe Montana
    WTF?

    Jeopardise relationships...

    I doubt it will do much to harm their OEM relationships...

    They already have the OEMs over a barrel, so the OEMs will just have to accept what they're given. Such is the nature of a market where you're dependent on a single supplier.

  7. asdf
    FAIL

    Hmm

    My guess is three years from now WinRT will be as dead as sliverlight and or at best folded into another framework. As for the supposed platform convergence based on the fact the WP8 SDK is MIA so close to launch the next year and half are going to be a train wreck for Microsoft.

    1. asdf
      FAIL

      Re: Hmm

      And for the record I don't consider leaks of alpha quality software as being released.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tablets

    Well, they are good for consumption, and FaceTime is kinda nice if you have the andwidth, but really if you want to create something a tablet just doesn't cut it.

    Of course considering that most people out there only consume, there might be a real threat to Windows.

    As for the Linux Fanbois, well... if Linux ever gets it act together maybe. Win and FreeBSD.Apple work, and are supported long term. Just try that with Linux unless the support staff stars back at you (no drool please) in the mirror each day.

    Gaming on Linux? Really? In theory killer, in reality DOA. See previous comments and if Newell is serious maybe time to sell Valve stock. Valve would be better served porting to the touchy feely consumer world.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Tablets

      I don't see why this is downvoted?

      The touchscreen UI really isn't great for many creative tasks. To imprecise and the keyboard entry takes up nearly half the screen space.

    2. pepper
      FAIL

      Re: Tablets

      Valve is a private corporation.

      And Valve's market has no use for a touchscreen in general(gamers).

      I dont think you quite understand how Valve operates.

  9. Andus McCoatover
    Windows

    OOh! Another "Burning Platform" from Microsoft's esteemed Trojan horse?

    “Our Surface devices will compete with products made by our OEM [original equipment manufacturer] partners, which may affect their commitment to our platform."

    At least this tablet may just be able to skim the Surface. If thrown hard enough....

    Someone needs a severe overdose of Valium. Not me, I think (I need a severe overdose of Viagra).

  10. Tom 35

    It's actually a double shot.

    First the OEMs get a boot to the head with MS selling Surface, Then they get a kick in the arse when MS expect them to sell systems with Win8 installed.

    1. Mephistro Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: It's actually a double shot.(@ Tom 35)

      It's like the stick & carrot strategy, but with two sticks instead.

      But seriously, OEMs will begin considering seriously other non-windows OSs the same minute that their relationship with MS starts hurting their baseline. You know, OEMs also have obligations to their shareholders.

      The funniest part of this is watching Mr. Ballmer et al waltzing into a minefield. Blindfolded and with clown shoes.

  11. John Savard Silver badge

    As If

    As if PC makers could put Linux on their computers and expect to sell any. Well, to sell more than a few.

    So I don't view this as one of the more serious risks that Microsoft faces.

    1. spegru

      Re: As If

      Ah but after the arrival of smartphones and tablets and smart TVs, if even MSFT are seen as supporting the diversification of platforms then who knows what effect that could have on public perception of computer=windows that they have lived on for so long.

      Is it that difficult to imagine say Ubuntu desktops/laptops?

    2. DJ Particle
      Linux

      Re: As If

      Everyone I and my partner have introduced to Ubuntu or Mint loves it. And these are standard everyday end users, from football jocks to the elderly, not "Linux geeks".

      It's probably more of a risk for MS than you think.

      1. Chet Mannly

        Re: As If

        "from football jocks to the elderly,"

        You must know some pretty unique elderly and jocks - hard to see either of those groups hacking away at a command line with a smile on their face.

        Linux has huge potential, but it needs more compatibility and a big dose of user friendliness...

        1. Chemist

          Re: As If

          Well I've provided Linux desktops for several 70-80 year olds over the last few years and guess what - they never even knew there WAS a command line - why should they - they were just using programs - you know clicking on icons.

          Do you need a command line for ipads ??

          1. h4rm0ny

            Re: As If

            "Well I've provided Linux desktops for several 70-80 year olds over the last few years and guess what - they never even knew there WAS a command line - why should they - they were just using programs - you know clicking on icons."

            I've likewise provided Ubuntu for people. And they have also been fine. Really, it's Linux + Gnome or KDE (or even xfce) is good enough for the Desktop. The major weakness is that you have to install it yourself and it doesn't have everything work out of the box as well. If you bought a PC with Ubuntu pre-installed by a manufacturer that had checked everything out, as you do with Mac OS or Windows, then one of the major disincentives for most people would be gone.

            1. Chemist

              Re: As If

              I have the view that anyone who suggests that the command-line is NEEDED to use LInux is either ignorant or spreading FUD. I never routinely use it for installations. The command line is handy for many things, sometimes ( very rarely) easier for setting-up new or exotic hardware. I also use it all the time for compiling software. But for using a system it isn't needed. My wife for example wouldn't know what it was.

        2. Dana W
          FAIL

          Re: As If

          Once its installed they never need to see command line. "I" only need to go to command line ONCE to install it. Try a Linux argument from this century.

          1. Chemist

            Re: As If

            "only need to go to command line ONCE to install it."

            What are you using that needs you to go to the commandline at all for installation ? I usually use OpenSuse but I have also installed Xubuntu and DSL to VMs without any need for thr commsndline

    3. N13L5

      Re: As If

      Really, People can buy PCs with whatever OS, cause they have the freedom to install something else if they like.

      Its simple enough to do, anyone has somebody in their family who can do it.

      I hope by now, the remaining people not buying Apple are getting increasingly allergic to bullshit devices with locked down boot loaders trying to force them into single source app stores.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    They just need to get on with it. The iPad will be on its 4th version by the time it arrives here in the UK.

    It's hard to see what else the iPad could offer though and iOS 6 is just more of the same.

    1. Chet Mannly

      "iOS 6 is just more of the same."

      Isn't it? Given widgets and everything else popping up on other platforms, I've been waiting for Apple to come out with a revolutionary change in their interface, but each time its still a grid of icons.

      Obviously not hurting their sales, but I've always thought Apple can something really special UI-wise

      (cue fanbois saying "but my 3 year old can use it!", as if somehow that's proof that something is good, rather than an example of the ultimate in dumbing down...)

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Right but who cares

    Seriously this surface thing will go the way of all the other crap Microsoft have tried and failed hard with. Zune, etc. Yuck.

  14. Rambler88
    Devil

    some very strange possibilities here ...

    This could be an interesting opportunity for Apple, now that Jobs is out of the way: letting OEMs sell Mac OS machines.

    But they'll probably respond to it by imitating Win 8's touchscreen-only UI. That, after all, is the direction Apple's been going in ever since it was a gleam in Jobs's eye. MS finally one-upped them at their own anti-productive game, and it would be very unlike them not to respond in kind--even if it means playing catchup with MS for a change, and shooting themselves in the foot into the bargain, just as MS is doing.

    Unless, of course, there's someone at Apple who isn't trying to channel Jobs ...

  15. This post has been deleted by its author

  16. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  17. Jonjonz
    Linux

    2 Ways

    MS can go 2 ways with this:

    1. Sell it cheap, and take over the market like they did with Xbox. This good for consumers, at least in the short run.

    2. Sell it high, grab some of Crapples market.

    Either way, PC makers have all the more reason (due to Win8's pure awfulness) to switch to the Linux desktop.

    The surface it self is a good thing. That it is a container for the Win8 poison is a very bad thing. Win8 is a self inflicted lethal poison that could mean the end of MS. It is so stunningly wrong on so many levels it is a testament to management hubris and bad design.

    1. Chet Mannly

      Re: 2 Ways

      "PC makers have all the more reason (due to Win8's pure awfulness) to switch to the Linux desktop."

      But not enough to drop Windows altogether.

      Linux isn't a realistic alternative for regular office business thus far, and that's where PC makers sell units hundreds and thousands at a time, not you and me consumer buying PC's for home.

      1. P. Lee Silver badge

        Re: 2 Ways

        Agreed. Businesses will just skip W8 as they skipped Vista and stay on W7 for the desktop. Moving from Windows would be enormously expensive for a large enterprise. License costs are quite low compared to support and migration costs.

        W8 Server is a different beast and may be worthwhile and server migrations generally aren't as fast as desktops might be.

        However, if Valve gets devs on board with linux/opengl (cross platform) games and W8 is a consumer failure, then OSX will pick up more consumers and MS' grip on the home market will be loosened further. That means more OSX devs around who will want to do cross-platform, rather than OSX or Windows only. An OSX-Windows cross-platform app is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump from linux. Worse than cross-platform apps are web-apps which remove investment in the windows platform and make it a non-critical bit of infrastructure.

  18. tempemeaty

    Nail biting end?

    I actually wonder if PC makers would rather choke on W8 until it drives them out of business before adopting an alternative source for their OS. Why would I even suggest that? Well Vista already tested the waters. When it was hurting the PC makers sales they continued on with it until Windows 7. That showed us their impotency in regards to making a change or control their own future.

    Ultimately I think they are fundamentally locked into the belief they have to sell PC's with a Windows OS even if it means, for some, they may be going out of business. I hope I'm wrong but if PC makers continue to act as though nailed down rather than choose the control an alternate OS would give them it could be their end.

    1. fLaMePrOoF
      Windows

      Re: Nail biting end?

      Windows 8 won't replace Windows 7 in the same way previous new versions have, no matter how much pressure MS put on OEMs it is simply too different a product and Windows 7 has far more life left in it than previously superseded versions.

      Touch displays / UIs have been very poorly taken up in the desktop market in the face of the tablet revolution and this is Win8's natural habitat; I predict that tier 1 OEMs will be cautious in rolling out their Windows 8 offerings while continuing to develop and base existing lines on Win7

    2. Mephistro Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: Nail biting end?

      "Well Vista already tested the waters. When it was hurting the PC makers sales they continued on with it until Windows 7"

      Or continued selling XP for anybody who asked for it. If MS closes that path -i.e stops selling Windows 7 to force OEMs into Win 8- things could get really nasty for them.

  19. fLaMePrOoF
    Windows

    MS and Nokia make good bed fellows; two companies who have lost their way...

    With recent Office offerings and now Windows 8 MS are looking to be about where Nokia were 4-5 years ago, striving for relevance in a market they increasingly fail to understand and sitting on the brink of a long decline.

    Although MS's decline will undoubtedly be a slower and less drastic affair than that of Nokia, my advice to anyone holding onto MS stock - SELL NOW, because over the next 4-5 years it will slide to a around half it's current value or even less.

    1. Derk
      Thumb Up

      Sell MS stock?

      I have to agree with you 100%. MS are so far behind the competition. I expect that their tablet will go the same way as the Zune. I also think that Apple have peaked too. Without Steve's vision, we've seen some embarrassing U-turns recently.

      Makes interesting reading

      http://m.vanityfair.com/business/2012/08/microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer

  20. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge
    FAIL

    The failures of Microsoft

    pricing ""is expected to be competitive with a comparable ARM tablet or Intel Ultrabook-class PC"

    ...so somewhere between $80 and $2000 then. Brilliant.

    "'The customers who buy the cheaper Arm box thinking "Its Windows, it HAS to run my legacy software!' are going to feel VERY hoodwinked.

    And yes it will be their fault for buying it without knowing what it actually IS"

    Well, really, it's Microsoft's fault to some extent. Windows 8 for ARM is so stripped, it's really not Windows any more than Windows CE was Windows, and if Microsoft labels it "Windows" instead of clearly marking "Windows RT" or the like, they are being pretty deceptive. Apple managed near-seamless compaibility going from 68k->PowerPC and PowerPC->Intel (although I must point out MacOS is now quite piss-poor in terms of hardware support, since they don't support machines older than like 2 years old.) Linux has qemu, also allowing, say, running a Linux Intel app on an ARM Linux system (plus, of course, ARM Linux is Linux, not an incompatible new thing like WinRT is so qemu would get minimal use anyway..) It's not unreasonable for people to assume a "Windows" system will run Windows apps.

    I'll find it ironic if the "best" way to run Windows apps on ARM becomes putting on a Linux distro and running some qemu & wine combination (apparently, this doesn't work right now though, due to qemu-i386 not handling threads properly yet.)

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    constant reference to Zune as a failure... you need to look deeper at why…

    Using Zune as constant reference to Microsoft hardware failure... you need to look deeper at why…

    Zune was marketing and distribution failure without a doubt, ok, so the first generation Zunes were clunky and felt like you had bought a cheap iPod (although somebody still gave me £30 for it on ebay!).

    BUT, the Zune HD which they brought out was a great piece of kit. I absolutely love the Zune HD (which I still use on my daily commute), the Mrs has had every generation of iPod Nano and still I would choose the Zune HD, the user interface, screen quality for video etc.. all amazingly good, it even looked great (I sold my iPod touch to buy a Zune HD). The downside was that it was a late to market and they never sold it outside of North America so the rest of the world apart from those visiting the US never got to see one. The Zune HD showed that they can make a great piece of hardware, but someone needs to sort out how they take it to market.

    Assuming they get the hardware right, and there is nothing to indicate they won’t, and you can make reference to Xbox’s as much as you like but the fact is that they have sorted that out now and probably learnt a lot it the process, with the power of the Windows brand behind it, then it’s likely to be a success.

    Within a month of release of the first surface you can guarantee there will be Windows haters who are buying them just to wipe them and install their favourite linux distro.

    1. Richard Plinston

      Re: constant reference to Zune as a failure... you need to look deeper at why…

      > Xbox ... they have sorted that out now

      It was released in 2005, it _should_ be 'sorted' by now.

      > with the power of the Windows brand behind it, then it’s likely to be a success.

      How well has that worked for WP7 ?

      > buying them just to wipe them and install their favourite linux distro.

      It it is heavily subsidized (as XBox was) and/or is in the bargain bin then I would certainly look at doing that.

  22. Magnus_Pym

    Surface will show the OEM's...

    ... how a Metro tablet doesn't sell well and how they should make something else instead.

This topic is closed for new posts.

Biting the hand that feeds IT © 1998–2020